Artillery: News & Discussion

rohitvats
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 04 Apr 2014 09:07

ravi_g wrote:Mortars are good no doubt. But yeh dil mange kuch more.

Image

Look at all that energy travelling ahead of the shell. I would rather prefer a lower charge on a 105 with a radical redesign that would allow it to go upto say >85* elevation.


Couple of points which make mortar extremely valuable to the infantry commander:

1. Organic fire-support available to the infantry battalion CO. Something which can be brought to bear on a target immediately. The most responsive tool available. It travels into the battlefield with the infantry.

2. High angle of fire coupled with very low minimum distance of fire - This means (a) this is what you'd be using when the big guns cannot distinguish between friend and foe because the distance separating them is low. (b) Use it for all the purposes where big guns cannot be used or are not available.

3.Has a high rate of fire as compared to the big guns.

4. Invaluable in mountain warfare - only thing which can travel with infantry and offer fire-support because of high angle of fire. You can actually fire at a target sitting a higher level from you at a short distance because the round can land nearly vertically on the target.

5. And this is something which I just learned:

Fin-stabilised mortar bombs do not have to withstand the rotational forces placed upon them by rifling or greater pressures, and can therefore carry a higher payload in a thinner skin than rifled artillery ammunition. Due to the difference in available volume, a smooth-bore mortar of a given diameter will have a greater explosive yield than a similarly sized artillery shell. For example, a 120 mm mortar bomb has about the same explosive capability as a 155 mm artillery shell. Also, fin-stabilised munitions fired from a smooth-bore, which do not rely upon the spin imparted by a rifled-bore for greater accuracy, do not have the drawback of veering in the direction of the spin.


There is a reason that a Mechanized infantry battalion with BMP-2 armed with 30mm cannon still has tracked mortar platoons in service.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_20317 » 05 Apr 2014 12:44

I agree with all your points. In fact I love a good mortar.

The reference to 105mm came as a brainwave to either increase the barrel length to say 18 cal (perhaps even 20 cal :P) or to use the extra energy to deploy a muzzle brake.

First one could increase the pressure but also stabilize the internal ballistics better increasing the overall weight but increasing range while decreasing the sudden jump in pressure that is caused on the shell probably ultimately allowing the shell designer more leeway. Second one could help decrease the weight of the base plate and over all weapon.

Also can you provide the link to the quote "For example, a 120 mm mortar bomb has about the same explosive capability as a 155 mm artillery shell". I googled for it and found one to be a work of fiction and another one an unattributed Roosi chaiwala quote.


Gust Front By John Ringo:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=IxJT ... ll&f=false

&


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=in

The Nona-K is mounted on a gun carriage, weighs 1,200kg and is also capable of direct-fire.
It is possible that both of these weapons were developed in response to the Milparade article quoted above since they seem to meet many of the needs described. Russian sources claim that the 120mm mortar bombs have a destructive potential on par with 152mm/155mm Artillery shells so maybe there is no need for a 155mm Infantry gun or Heavy mortar. Certainly it simplifies logistics if weapons can also use the ammo for an infantry battalion's muzzle-loading weapons.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 May 2014 20:19

Gen VK Singh in a recent Interview with MoneyControl
"The problem is with your procedures. Let me give you one simple example. We made a gun, which we called the Indian field gun, an excellent in the gun, in the Jabalpur coach factory. In last 25 years, you haven’t made a single gun. Why? Because the procedure says Indian army has not ordered more guns, “Hey guys, why were you sleeping? Why didn’t you upgrade yourself to make something else?” Today, we won’t have been looking for a 155mm if this gun coach factory along with the DRDO, along with the armed forces, sat down and had made or taken a stride in making a 155 caliber gun. So, the basic mentality has to be changed."

This was my gut feeling for many years abt defence research in india, which i was not able to express clearly in words. Defence research in India, when successful (Naval Projects, IAF Avionics) has followed an approach , more or less as suggested by the General above. So, maybe, for successful defense product realization, all concerned parties should be involved with the project, and a Heavyweight and Influential Project leader (who signs ACR or decides bonus, has authority to hire and fire team members from that particular project) should be selected. Japanese companies have concept called as "Cross Functional Team" and a position known as "Project Leader" who directly reports to the CEO. An example is the recent OFB 155mm 45 Cal Project, where, after Summer trials were passed , if the team had a structure as suggested by Gen VKS above, small no. of guns like 18-24 nos / 3-4 batteries can be inducted in terrain where the trials were successful, like say Rajasthan sector, and induction in Winter terrain can be differed pending winter trial results. The new guns would complement the existing 105mm and 130mm artillery in desert sector, and no one is suggesting yet that they will replace the Bofors. This approach has also been seen in Navy-DRDO sonar projects, where new developments "complement" the existing hardware, which is often imported. IMHO, such an approach gives an option to field commanders at the grass roots level, who can atleast have some weapon to fire back with, when previously nothing was available.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vivek K » 23 May 2014 09:43

They didn't make a gun because they have been trying for 25 years to have the Army agree to buy the Arjun!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 24 May 2014 03:29

Congress needed to give away Imported Maal to keep Army and Airforce in their pockets. Otherwise they would have complained about not sharing the corruption loot.

Wonder how Modi will get rid of the import addiction - Suggest exploding a few nukes and welcome the arms embargo!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 29 May 2014 16:20

Summer trials for Indian Bofors in June (TNN - Shishir Arya)

NAGPUR: The indigenous 155mm artillery guns, made on the lines of the Bofors howitzers procured by Indian Army in the 1980s, will go for the last round of firing trials next month. After successful winter trials in snowbound Sikkim during March, the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is now preparing for the summer rounds of Operation Dhanush, as the project has been christened.

The tests will be held in June-end and shall continue till July in the Pokhran desert. If everything goes well, this will be the last time these guns will blaze to prove their mettle. However, other tests, which include an evaluation by the directorate general of quality assurance (DGQA) of the Army, will follow before the howitzers are finally inducted. The other tests will not involve test fires however, said a source.

A year ago, during the summers trials in August, the barrel of the gun being tested had exploded, pushing back the indigenization process. Had the accident not taken place, it would have been the last round of test firing. But the project was pushed back for a year. The winter trials followed, which were successful, said a source in the ministry of defence.

The guns are being developed at the Gun Carriage Factory at Jabalpur. There are plans to add two new howitzers in the coming couple of months. "There are plans to make close to 20 pieces in the coming months," said the source, who refused to divulge the number of guns developed so far.

The guns developed by GCF are of 155x45 calibre as against 155x39 of the original Bofors guns procured from Sweden. This means the Indian version has a longer barrel, ensuring a higher range. But, at the same time, the army itself is looking for 155x52 calibre guns from the open market and is also in the process of acquiring ultralight M777 howitzers from the US. The process of indigenization started over three years ago, after the Army's efforts to buy fresh lot of 155mm guns from the global market did not meet any success.


**************************************************************************************************
> Hope some guns inducted into snow bound areas now, as winter trials successful.

> As IA requirements are for 114 nos. immidiately, as well as some to replace ageing and worn out Bofors 155mm guns (410 nos.), as well as replace Russian 122 mm guns in reserves, and also M- 46 130mm guns which are not as effective, GCF may find it difficult to make it on time. The 3/month production workshare of GCF can still be protected if blueprints from GCF are sent to Tata SED, L&T, M&M etc. for contract manufacturing and to help with bottlenecks.The 52 Cal requirement for FARP would not be included in these numbers.

> If IA eventually does away with 122 mm , 130 mm and other legacy guns, they could have much simplified logistics for only 105 mm and 155 mm, and firepower which can be fielded can also be much more devastating than the existing.

> These guns will fail the tests onlee....... :((

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 29 May 2014 16:30

Army failed all the Howitzers from all over the world for last 25 years. The fact that they are able to find faults with indigenous Howitzers is not strange. As per Def Exp info around 1 Howitzer is being made per month which means by June there will be around 10 howitzers to be failed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2014 16:35

The domestic gun will fail onlee :(( :((

We will not be getting any new guns onlee :(( :((

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SanjayC » 29 May 2014 16:41

Indian journails are experts at raising the benchmark every time DRDO or other Indian companies come dangerously near to meeting it.

The guns developed by GCF are of 155x45 calibre as against 155x39 of the original Bofors guns procured from Sweden. This means the Indian version has a longer barrel, ensuring a higher range. But, at the same time, the army itself is looking for 155x52

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2014 17:02

The IA is not raising the benchmarks. For the last 10 years they have been asking for 52 cal 155 MMs. It seems that the 45 cal is being developed, by the OFB due the the TOT for the M 46 upgrade from the Yahudies.

While Bharat Forhe is already ready with the 52 cal gun, which is awaiting clearance for trials. In all this I am confident that new guns will be added.

But will still say, no new guns will be added to the IA :((

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Sharma » 29 May 2014 17:12


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 29 May 2014 19:14

Quality assurance - wiki:
"Quality Assurance (QA) is a way of preventing mistakes or defects in manufactured products and avoiding problems when delivering solutions or services to customers. QA is applied to physical products in pre-production to verify what will be made meets specifications and requirements, and during manufacturing production runs by validating lot samples meet specified quality controls."

At this stage, the basic design of the equipment has been validated and approved.Hence perhaps the above post mention of "no more trials if winter successful."

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 29 May 2014 22:09

Ofb and Bharat forge howitzers are better than having nothing but Army prefers nothing rather something Indian. I wonder why Army forgot all summer trials for Smerch?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 29 May 2014 23:13

Chanakya strategy - Make a 1000 of each OFB and Bharat forge howitzers and give them to Border Defense force (bypass Army altogether :roll: ).

We need these to disinfect Paki border - killing cockroaches and rats anyways.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 30 May 2014 22:42

vic wrote:Ofb and Bharat forge howitzers are better than having nothing but Army prefers nothing rather than something which is Indian. I wonder why Army forgot all summer trials for Smerch?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby suryag » 30 May 2014 23:00

why summer trials - cant the gun be fired in bright light, huge temperature and humidity chambers with only an output for the barrel?

Singhaji - dont we do this all the time for semiconductors ageing and thermal chamber tests? what prevents us from doing that for arti guns except that the scale will be big but building such a temp/humidity/altitude chamber shouldnt be difficult may cost a few crores

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 31 May 2014 04:20

Ideas are many but seemingly Indian army has forgotten the good drubbing handed over by Chinese.

Otherwise Indian jugaad would have shined through ages back and Chinese army would be facing 3000 plus 155 mm guns pointing in to their faces eons back - all made in India cheaply.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby partha » 31 May 2014 04:35

suryag wrote:why summer trials - cant the gun be fired in bright light, huge temperature and humidity chambers with only an output for the barrel?

Singhaji - dont we do this all the time for semiconductors ageing and thermal chamber tests? what prevents us from doing that for arti guns except that the scale will be big but building such a temp/humidity/altitude chamber shouldnt be difficult may cost a few crores

This was discussed a few pages back. Some countries do test with temperature chambers. I am not sure why we can't do the same. Every time I read about the Indian artillery gun, it is either winter trials or summer trials. It could be that some vested interests are exploiting the seasonal changes to delay things.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 31 May 2014 11:23

Daddy always sends the Pappu to play around in desert heat while he screws around with foreign aunties.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 31 May 2014 12:24

Somehow this winter trials and summer trials drama seems to be a practice created to prolang the process and earn loot in the process. Cant we create indoor conditions of any kind of summer and winter?? Surely this is not some super duper a/c system like LCA (which also can be tested, on the ground tests that is, - for more of the climatic conditions indoor) Yet we have a full year cycle of tests for every damn thing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby KiranM » 31 May 2014 12:46

Summer/ winter trails is not just to test the equipment at extremes of temperature, but also under extreme environmental conditions like dust, snow, rain, slush, etc. These environmental conditions are difficult to simulate. And chambers only complement and not replace actual environmental testing. For good or worse IA has a procedure to test equipment.There may be scope to improve the procedure and complement with chamber based testing to shorten the time taken. But lets not cast aspersion on their knowledge or experience on why or how to conduct trials.
It is like me saying you have no idea how to do your job.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 06 Jun 2014 20:49

I hope now that we have a new GoI, the BHIM will be given a fresh push. The g6 gun along with its MRSI ability will give us an edge over the PA and PLA.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 09 Jun 2014 20:10

Army has placed a massive order :?: of full and complete 20 :( Howitzers with OFB after summer trials are practically over.
Last edited by vic on 10 Jun 2014 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 09 Jun 2014 20:31

Army places part orders for Indian Bofors


{Why are they still called "Indian Bofors"? can they not replace the "Bofors"?}

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 11 Jun 2014 10:25

^
The above news, about "placing of orders" even when trials are ongoing, is a revolutionary step by the Indian Army. IMHO, the clearance to make it happen was probably taken at the highest levels. (Wonder who could it be?) The 20 nos. taken will be (hopefully) inducted in some snowbound and high altitude sector and used by the men on the ground. If good reports come from the units about this system (which may happen, as winter trails were positive), more orders will be placed.

Also, please to OFB wallas to make a 120 mm mortar with automatic loading system. The US did this with " Dragon Fire" mounted on the Stryker vehicle. IIRC, they used an old French Mortar from the 1960s - no problem with its 350 kg + weight as it is vehicle mounted, and no hi-fi technology to meet endless requirements.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 11 Jun 2014 10:47

Trials are going on for 3 years. After practically all trials are complete, a reluctant order of 20 units is placed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 11 Jun 2014 19:22

So only 20 Dhanush ordered? And people bitch why the OFB can't produce 7,000,000,000 per month.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 11 Jun 2014 19:34

I bet even the order of 20 Howitzers will be divided into 10 phases with trials for each phase.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 11 Jun 2014 20:01

abhik wrote:So only 20 Dhanush ordered? And people bitch why the OFB can't produce 7,000,000,000 per month.


:)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2014 20:54

there is no money to be made in such locally produced kit nor any H&D points to score over the turkish panter or norinco howitzers like the bmw owner showing off against the camry.

that explains the lack of a warm welcome.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 11 Jun 2014 22:29

Aren't we jumping the gun here? (no pun intended)

This gun did not exist 2 years back! It has not yet completed trials, and it has orders. A bigger order awaits the moment the trials end. What more are you guys asking for?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Misraji » 12 Jun 2014 00:28

indranilroy wrote:Aren't we jumping the gun here? (no pun intended)

This gun did not exist 2 years back! It has not yet completed trials, and it has orders. A bigger order awaits the moment the trials end. What more are you guys asking for?

+1.

--Ashish.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 12 Jun 2014 04:25

The gun did complete one set of trials - > After successful winter trials in snowbound Sikkim during March

So we ordered 20 nos. to check mate Chinese in Sikkim. This must be super duper phall*c gun to have only 20 units to buzz off Chinese jerks.

TIME is money given 10% inflation rate, every year delay means 10 % less units for same money. Retrofitting and upgrades are always done so can't understand snail pace of procurement and manufacturing for Desi made goodies? Can't we learn from American approach to mass produce and cut down unit costs.

( Another dose of sarcasm follows ) May be we need better PR - Forget firing shells, How about it shoots swiss cheese wrapped in $ bills? Another 1000 units ka order overnight milega :roll:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby alexis » 12 Jun 2014 11:43

IA has not changed even under Modi - pitiful order!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jun 2014 12:06

How do we know that this order was not processed by the previous govt and is getting executed by this govt only.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 12 Jun 2014 12:25

indranilroy wrote:What more are you guys asking for?


As of now, a MoU (or equivalent) for supply of 410 numbers once it clears trial will do. Too much?
Last edited by Picklu on 12 Jun 2014 12:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jun 2014 12:26

It will come in due course.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 12 Jun 2014 12:27

We are still waiting for Arjun orders :cry:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 12 Jun 2014 12:33

Picklu wrote:We are still waiting for Arjun orders :cry:


Ah yes. It will take time to uproot the Russians.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 12 Jun 2014 13:40

Has the trials started? this is the hottest climate one will get. Pretty soon there is going to be rains.


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