Artillery: News & Discussion

agupta
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby agupta » 21 Jul 2014 22:56

This is wondrous isn't it. Immediately the topic of accountability becomes a X vs Y. one ... I will be the first to accept that accountability is a strong responsibility in negotiation if you are the customer OR prime integrator and NOT JUST the production agency who gets a contract.

That said, why is a burst T90 barrel worse than a burst Pinaka ? They both result in the same thing - "paper" capability at the war fighter.

And at least the Mig 23 and 27s resulted in real hardware flying; or are you guys accepting that the hangar queens are bad - and we should diversify away from them ? I would have no quibbles with that either....

..just that then you cannot at the same time argue against the Su-30MKI's high life-cycle cost driving IAF to go towards a Capital Heavy But Life Cycle Cost Effective Rafale as the MRCA ?

<OOps ... OTing on the Arty thread, sorry>

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 22 Jul 2014 01:30

vic wrote:Army demanded accuracy 5 to 10 times better than Grad from Pinaka.

First, 5-10 times is too big a range. You either know the number or don't. But don't make these inane statements. Secondly, what did you want DRDO to deliver in 2008? Same tech level as developed in 60s for BM-21 GRAD? Finally, you still haven't answered the question about upgrade of BM-21 being 90% which NEW system?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 22 Jul 2014 02:15

Thing with Smerch is that Roosies are going back on the agreement over manufacture of Smerch, just like they did with T-90, Gorshkov and numerous other big and small projects which has now extended to FGFA .

Now India has the option to either play their inflated prices for those magic rockets or spend the money on developing and inducting better versions of Pinaka, Prahar etc. Giving in to their blackmail yet again will encourage them yet again. Going by the past history, I wouldn't count on Army taking a proper stand on it though. Yet again, imports will be rushed in citing whatever reasons and we'll have people claiming that army is really helpless in front of MOD babooze, netas and PSU defence factories.

And at least the Mig 23 and 27s resulted in real hardware flying; or are you guys accepting that the hangar queens are bad - and we should diversify away from them ? I would have no quibbles with that either...

Real hardware which spent majority of time getting pampered with expensive spares instead of flying as it's supposed to.

That said, why is a burst T90 barrel worse than a burst Pinaka ?

You like getting ripped again and again by foreigners too much, do you ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby agupta » 22 Jul 2014 02:28

jamwal wrote:You like getting ripped again and again by foreigners too much, do you ?


Nope. But at least I expect no quarters or favors from foreigners

The Jaichands at home - yes, getting ripped by my own - has a special pain. And yes, its actually more hurtful than getting sold out by the foreigners.

The fact that these corrupt Jaichands cannot execute, cannot be competent or accountable leaves me at the mercy of the foreigners.... I don't like that either.

And after 5 decades of sucking at the tax-payers teat and then bleating about "level playing fields" and "mandatory overtime", their and their pseudo-patriot brigade's whining about how the private sector is less patriotic than them and all these DPSUs really need is the next x000 crore of investment....all they are doing is giving the DPSUs that actually do well a bad name and bring everyone down.

There's this sentiment about "we cannot do this unless we are given an order" - well, they bloody well should surrender their pay checks if there is no order - otherwise the expectation is that they are forecasting where the technology and product demand is going and getting their production processes ready while an order is coming - last I checked, their pay gets paid - order or no order !

As for projects, then demand accountability from people who sign the contracts - fire them if they sign bad ones. If they are from MoD or HAL or OFB. When you are surrounded by filthy water, its hard to preach hygiene to anyone. And when you start cleaning up, the best place to start is around your feet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby agupta » 22 Jul 2014 02:44

jamwal wrote:Now India has the option to either play their inflated prices for those magic rockets or spend the money on developing and inducting better versions of Pinaka, Prahar etc. Giving in to their blackmail yet again will encourage them yet again. Going by the past history, I wouldn't count on Army taking a proper stand on it though. Yet again, imports will be rushed in citing whatever reasons and we'll have people claiming that army is really helpless in front of MOD babooze, netas and PSU defence factories.


It is a sad state - no question; we essentially have rot competing with rot [Services vs. the MoD/neta/PSU nexus]... i know enough stories about doctored trials from both sides e.g., more energetic bullets than expected or cheaper armor plating than expected.

The Services prob accept it because they know this is the System- and they cannot fight at every turn; so when you hear a news item that they are "willing to accept a license production at OFB" - its not because they suddenly love the OFB, its that to get something moving, this is better than nothing or another design that will look good in prototype but will fall apart in full-scale production because the interface between demo-production is the DRDO-DPSU combo's Achilles heel.

Atleast now we have a DRDO head who's willing to address bread-n-butter things as a national priority; he's humble enough that the nation's need is a higher calling than say others in the past who wanted to launch super-projects because they were sexy and guaranteed them a place in history (or a US university). So we need to fix the other side of this equation. And we cannot do that without driving accountability. WE have to ask ourself as to why we need a PSU to tackle such "ordinary" non-strategic stuff in the 21st century.

Real hardware which spent majority of time getting pampered with expensive spares instead of flying as it's supposed to.

Like I said before, no quibbles on this with you. So lets ask the MKI-paltan to calm down as well and think about getting cost-effective and available aircraft systems in the hands of our Services closer to when they're needed.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 22 Jul 2014 11:38

The accuracy of imported Grad rockets was 5% of range and Ofb rockets 8% of the range. Pinaka has achieved 1% but 100 new Grad launchers are being bought on the pretext of upgrade. Import Jindabad.
Last edited by Raja Bose on 22 Jul 2014 20:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Let's not start labeling people with derogatory names if they don't agree with you. No warning this time but don't repeat it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 22 Jul 2014 13:16

vic wrote:Import lovers will always protect imports. The accuracy of imported Grad rockets was 5% of range and Ofb rockets 8% of the range. Pinaka has achieved 1% but 100 new Grad launchers are being bought on the pretext of upgrade. Import Jindabad.


With respect to the bold part of your post: I'm reporting your post. Enough of this nonsense of labeling people X, Y and Z because they don't agree with your POV.

Secondly, it might not make a difference to you as you type these inane one liners but 3% difference in accuracy makes sh1t load of difference to the people who actually go out and fight - for a 40 km range that is difference of 1.2 km in accuracy. Go figure how many rockets it would require to be fired so that decent number land on target. And may be, then you'll understand why IA has never been a fan of these type of weapons.

As for Pinaka - it would be useless to have a 40 km system w/o this level of accuracy. Which btw is between 1%-2%. And one that is being inducted in 2008-2010 time period. Unless you feel that IA should have relax specifications and go easy on DPSU to meet your definition of it being 'patriotic' enough!

Again, on GRAD BM-21 upgrade, this is what has been reported in press in mid 2013: http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-04-06/news/38327335_1_tatra-rocket-launchers-ravi-rishi

According to people familiar with the development, a consortium of Ashok Leyland and L&T emerged the lowest bidder two weeks ago when commercial bids for procurement of 100 multi-barrel rocket launchers (meant to upgrade the BM21 rocket launchers) were opened. The value of the contract is about Rs 100 crore, according to industry sources.

The contract involves refurbishing the existing rocket launchers and mounting them on new vehicles. The weapons-related work will be done by L&T and the vehicle is a new Ashok Leyland platform. The Leyland-L&T combine left behind a team of Tata Group companies (Tata Motors and Tata Power SED) and a team of Tatra, Bharat Earth Movers and Bharat Electronics. The last two are public-sector defence companies.


So, tell me this: What is being imported here if two Indian companies are going to do the work? And, assuming you're referring to value of contract (INR 100 Crore) as 90% of new system (which can only be Pinaka), does INR 112 Crore fetch you 100 Pinaka systems? Mind you, I said systems and not only launchers. This is what a single battery has:

"A Pinaka battery has six launchers, six loader vehicles, six replenishment vehicles, two vehicles for ferrying the command post and a vehicle for carrying the meteorological radar, which will provide data on wind."

As per a 2009 Hindu Report and PIB release, IA had placed an order worth INR 1,300 Crore for Pinaka 'System' for 2 x Regiments.

Hindu: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20091023262110900.htm&date=fl2621/&prd=fline&
PIB: http://pib.nic.in/newsite/efeatures.aspx?relid=72477

The same 'import' pasand army has been crying from roof-tops for more Pinaka rockets and government in its magnanimity finally decided to clear a sum INR 1,500 Crore in 2013.

http://archives.deccanchronicle.com/130325/news-current-affairs/article/centre-clears-rs-1500-crore-plan-pinaka-rockets

The IA is not complaining about PINAKA, the DRDO/DPSU are not complaining about IA's attitude to PINAKA but here we're manufacturing conspiracy theories to fit our prejudice and lack of any interest to do back-ground search.

Next time you decide to make an argument, at least make an effort to think through it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Hindu report I've linked above has interview with then ARDE Head and he says ARDE will 'SOON' build rockets with 60 km range. Well, that soon has taken 5-years to materialize and ARDE just successfully tested the rockets in May 2014.

I've no iota of doubt that Russians refused to sign TOT because they clearly see the writing on the wall - this TOT will only assist ARDE to develop the 120 km range rocket which they have said they will, and this will take away the revenue stream away from Russians. They will want to squeeze last bit of juice before they do sign the TOT.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To those who've been taking about using Prahaar instead of 120 km range rocket, please read this from ARDE Director (same 2009 Hindu report linked above)

The ARDE will soon build Pinaka rockets with a longer range of 60 km compared with the present 40 km and make them smarter too. These rockets will have a combination of inertial guidance systems and global positioning systems. Datar described such guided rockets as “something between ordinary rockets and missiles”. Missiles are expensive because they have precise guidance systems. “In the next five years, we will have guided rockets. This is a cheaper way to meet the challenge of getting at high-value targets with high accuracy. In the future, we may go for rocket systems with a 120-km range,” Datar said

The people who actually matter in what enters production and deployment, seem to be pretty clear about what is what.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 22 Jul 2014 15:10

Prem Kumar wrote:
We should let these guys be fired & the plant be closed, setup a JV, offer the good ones high paying jobs in India as part of the JV, sign M777 deal & as part of offsets offer to license produce it in India by moving the production plant lock, stock & barrel here


that would not be different than a licensed production deal which anyways have foreign supervisors initially for training and QC, albeit the machines might be cheaper than buying on open market.
the people who designed the gun cannot be brought over, they would already have moved on to other projects.
the 100s of smaller suppliers would be all over, and we would still need to import these sub components.
it is unclear if we have the metal plants to supply all the titanium components needed...perhaps midhani if provided all the tech blueprints could come up with something in a year or two.

likewise, Kalyani has the drawings and machinery of the GHN45, but can they produce a next gen GHN45-mk2 today ? I dont think so. but atleast Kalyani has its own heritage of metals and machining and GHN45 is not special titanium.

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Indian Army completes self-propelled howitzer trials

Postby Ranjani Brow » 22 Jul 2014 20:20

The Indian Army has completed trials for two 155 mm/52 calibre howitzer systems and is preparing a report for the Ministry of Defence.

Official sources said two competing 155 mm/52 cal towed gun systems and two 155 mm/52 cal self-propelled tracked howitzers recently completed maintainability acceptance trials and secured Directorate General of Quality Assurance clearance.

These processes followed summer and winter trials involving all four howitzers in Rajasthan in mid-2013 and Sikkim state in the Himalayas late last year and in January.

France's Nexter Systems modified its Trajan 155 mm/52 calibre for the Indian tender and Elbit submitted its ATHOS 2052 for the towed gun tender.


Indian Army completes self-propelled howitzer trials

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 22 Jul 2014 20:39

I don't get it. Why don't we just go with the g6 which was already mated with the Arjun and use the towed and self propelled version. This will standardize the technology across the forces. At the same time we should induct the locally developed 45 caliber bofors variant. Why is this dragging on like this?

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Re: Indian Army completes self-propelled howitzer trials

Postby rohitvats » 22 Jul 2014 21:06



While I can understand the SP Tracked guns undergoing trials, why are the towed guns being trialed? I thought the Dhanush and subsequently the DRDO gun would be inducted. What gives? This does not make any sense.

(1) This is the NEXTER Trajan - http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4975.html - The article talks about NEXTER partnering with L&T to offer this gun for Indian competition.

Athos 2052:http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/ATHOS.pdf

(2) Here is a 2012 communication from L&T on their partnership with NEXTER and possible work-share:

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporate/Uploads/LarsenToubroformsconsortiumwithNexterSystems-30March2012.pdf

(3) CAESAR Mounter Gun System on Ashok Leyland 6x6 truck:

http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/caesar_ashokleyland450.jpg

(4) L&T has partnered with Samsung for their K-9 Thunder SP (Tracked) Arty system:

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporate/Uploads/L&TandSamsung-TechwinTeamup-29March2012.pdf

(5) BEML+ Konstrukha SP Arty System: http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8776/dsc02624i.jpg

Antony had said that three vendors had been approached with Russians being the third party - but they seem to have not participated.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 23 Jul 2014 02:17

>>>What gives? This does not make any sense.

Nothing about the howitzer saga makes any sense anyways. This is what, the 100th RFI/RFP/trial? :(
And yes, logistics for a toss. How many types.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 23 Jul 2014 05:59

Why not revive Bhim?

And what were the results if Dhanush summer trials?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 23 Jul 2014 06:44

the Dhanush is a 39 cal (or 45?) weapon based on the FH77b we have. OFB has not attempted to rock the boat but focussed on delivering a working a reliable analogue of the imported bofors. this is obviously the first priority...even a 'trailing edge' 39cal weapon is better than being nook-nood.

the 52cal towed is supposed to be bideshi hifi tech for which no development precedent exists in india (never mind bharat forge has the GHN45 tech in hand) and so the trials. I dont know which two candidates are in the fray there...can anyone name them?

one I think is the FH77-B05-L52 , the other one from ST kinetics was blacklisted, ...so who is the other one?

the requirements are so high that nobody was able to meet them in most of the trials. and those that came for later trials were modified pieces to meet the reqs. I think atmos also suffered a barrel burst once.

there is confusion and corruption, but in this instance various factions and lobbies have cancelled each other out so that nothing can move.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 23 Jul 2014 08:19

^^^
The Dhanush is 45 cal.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 23 Jul 2014 09:17

its a vast machine this Nth trials thing. the people who knew its rationale and design are long retired. todays high priests only know how to keep the dark gods fed with more trials. without knowing the purpose or outcome of the ritual. perhaps the never ending trials itself is the desired outcome, as it keeps the high priests happy with libations from the devotees.

and so the empire runs like a chariot through the night, driver dead at the wheel, the black horses charging through the forest mindlessly....

within the treeline, watchful eyes and energetic legs of wolves and coyotes track and follow...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby merlin » 23 Jul 2014 09:36

Again and again we come to the same thing. A full time defence minister is needed to sort through the mess and crack the whip to get a viable plan in place. Otherwise this charade will continue forever.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 23 Jul 2014 09:48

Going by this farce, army is looking like a selfish kid who always plays with toys of other kids because he doesn't want to bring it's own to the playground.

I hope the vendors will loan some guns for more 'trials' if a war happens.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 23 Jul 2014 21:35

Wow.. so out of the blue when desi gun market was getting hot they completed trials for these guns!!

That too for towed and tracked versions of 52 CAL, when similar versions were being worked upon and offered by desi people.

Singha wrote:the 52cal towed is supposed to be bideshi hifi tech for which no development precedent exists in india (never mind bharat forge has the GHN45 tech in hand) and so the trials. I dont know which two candidates are in the fray there...can anyone name them?


TATA SED Gun is 52 Cal.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_ ... 02143.html

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SanjayC » 23 Jul 2014 21:47

TATA SED Gun is 52 Cal.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_ ... 02143.html


It is amazing that the gun is available with Indian private companies, but the Generals insist on entertaining only foreign private companies and go after rounds of trials after trails. Something stinks. What exactly is their problem in not talking to companies like Tatas and Bharat Forge for a gun? It's time Modi did something about these "Import Generals." The same saga we have seen during Arjun tank trials. The same crap they are now doing for artillery.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 23 Jul 2014 22:02

SanjayC wrote:
TATA SED Gun is 52 Cal.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_ ... 02143.html


It is amazing that the gun is available with Indian private companies, but the Generals insist on entertaining only foreign private companies and go after rounds of trials after trails. Something stinks. What exactly is their problem in not talking to companies like Tatas and Bharat Forge for a gun? It's time Modi did something about these "Import Generals." The same saga we have seen during Arjun tank trials. The same crap they are now doing for artillery.


TATA SED gun is still not 100% desi as lot of parts are from Denel, but an effort made using their own money.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SanjayC » 23 Jul 2014 22:08

^^^ Exactly. It is time to support these companies and increase the level of indigenization gradually. Even if it is 20% Indian, it is still better for us than 100% imported, and it will be manufactured in India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 23 Jul 2014 22:51

SanjayC wrote:
TATA SED Gun is 52 Cal.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/defexpo_ ... 02143.html


It is amazing that the gun is available with Indian private companies, but the Generals insist on entertaining only foreign private companies and go after rounds of trials after trails. Something stinks. What exactly is their problem in not talking to companies like Tatas and Bharat Forge for a gun? It's time Modi did something about these "Import Generals." The same saga we have seen during Arjun tank trials. The same crap they are now doing for artillery.


I'm telling you this as a moderator : go easy on the language you use for the armed forces. Your right to crtiticize Services does not come with leeway to use terms as 'Import Generals' or any other such nonsense. I've said enough number number of times and will not repeat again. Mind it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 23 Jul 2014 22:58

Sid wrote:Wow.. so out of the blue when desi gun market was getting hot they completed trials for these guns!!

That too for towed and tracked versions of 52 CAL, when similar versions were being worked upon and offered by desi people. [Snip]


Before you go out and make sweeping statements, it is always good check on facts.

Inspite of me linking the gun types being trialled, you've gone ahead and start breast beating about MOUNTED GUN SYSTEM being proposed by Tata. Tracked gun system is like the proposed BHIM gun which got shelved because of nonsense of blacklisting every supplier.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 23 Jul 2014 23:12

Karan M wrote:>>>What gives? This does not make any sense.

Nothing about the howitzer saga makes any sense anyways. This is what, the 100th RFI/RFP/trial? :(
And yes, logistics for a toss. How many types.


I don't think anything will come out of these except for maybe the tracked system. With Dhanush having cleared trials and DRDO working on advanced gun, there should be no import of any towed gun.

On the contrary, they should start program for mounting Dhanush on TATRA or Ashok Leyland. After towed gun requirement, Mounted Gun System is second biggest category with 816 guns required. It makes sense that both are derived from same gun.

Though, in ideal world, all four categories - tracked, wheeled, mounted and towed should use same common gun.

It seems to me that MOD may placate the army with import of Tracked and Wheeled SP guns ( hopefully sharing same gun)- between them, IIRC they account for 280 units. Balance 2600 units will be of other two varieties.

Another possible angle here: since these trials are culmination of ones started earlier ( last year or so I think), we're going through a dog & pony show with nothing coming out of it. I hope this is the case. All those platform need to derive from same gun.

Let MOD sanction more 130mm upgrade to 155/39mm program to factor in production and R&D time and not go about inducting potpourri of guns. Sigh!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 24 Jul 2014 00:16

rohitvats wrote:Before you go out and make sweeping statements, it is always good check on facts.

Inspite of me linking the gun types being trialled, you've gone ahead and start breast beating about MOUNTED GUN SYSTEM being proposed by Tata. Tracked gun system is like the proposed BHIM gun which got shelved because of nonsense of blacklisting every supplier.


Rohit, gun trials are for both tracked and "towed" gun system. KSSL BHARAT 52 is a towed gun system on offer. TATA SED was an example by desi effort towards artillery gun system.

No one is "breast" beating and trying to malign Army here. Its the stupid system, and hence the shock and awe.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby merlin » 24 Jul 2014 13:42

rohitvats wrote:I'm telling you this as a moderator : go easy on the language you use for the armed forces. Your right to crtiticize Services does not come with leeway to use terms as 'Import Generals' or any other such nonsense. I've said enough number number of times and will not repeat again. Mind it.


Friendly advice. Moderating a thread you are a participant in is not a good idea.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sagar G » 24 Jul 2014 18:52

Rename this thread to "rohitvats Artillery Discussion Thread" so that people coming here know to strictly tow the agenda as mentioned by saaheb and nanha mujahids can rescue themselves from the ire of saaheb.
Last edited by Indranil on 24 Jul 2014 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Boss, just report something you don't like. It will be taken care of. What is the point of this inflammatory post?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Victor » 24 Jul 2014 19:50

If anyone knows how these sarkari projects work, they will know that once a file is signed it gains a life of its own and a mini universe is created around it. That file will doggedly travel the course through rain, shine, whiskey and natasha with personnel retiring, dying and moving to private companies along the way over a decade or more. Many babu careers are defined by one or more such files and much fun and comfort is had by all. It does not matter that nobody has any intention to actually see anything come of it but the file must complete its journey. It appears that many such journeys will be coming to an end quickly under the new dispensation. It has nothing whatsoever to do with which guns the army will eventually get. Fikar not.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 24 Jul 2014 22:00

merlin wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I'm telling you this as a moderator : go easy on the language you use for the armed forces. Your right to crtiticize Services does not come with leeway to use terms as 'Import Generals' or any other such nonsense. I've said enough number number of times and will not repeat again. Mind it.


Friendly advice. Moderating a thread you are a participant in is not a good idea.

Most moderators (including Rohit) agree with you that moderators should not moderate discussions which they are a participant of. He must have got carried away.

Having said that, I agree with his moderation in this case.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SanjayC » 24 Jul 2014 22:05

Sagar G wrote:Rename this thread to "rohitvats Artillery Discussion Thread" so that people coming here know to strictly tow the agenda as mentioned by saaheb and nanha mujahids can rescue themselves from the ire of saaheb.


Problem is, he prevents people from airing views he doesn't like. We curse here politicians and bureaucrats all day. MMS is called a US stooge and a traitor. Bureaucrats are called worthless babus. A special thread has been opened where we can rant all we can about Modi. So what is so special about Generals that we have to be extra respectful, especially when we see some of them actively thwarting an Indian MIC from emerging? The saga of Arjun is all before us and how cold the generals have been towards it for no reason. Same with artillery gun offerings from Indian private companies. Same with the next upgrade of the Insas gun.
Last edited by SanjayC on 24 Jul 2014 22:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sagar G » 24 Jul 2014 22:17

Hain ji bhat is thiz ??? Speaking for saaheb invites ire of another saaheb !!! Bhat is going on ???

P.B.U.S. (Peace Be Upon Saaheb's)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 24 Jul 2014 22:27

SanjayC wrote:
Sagar G wrote:Rename this thread to "rohitvats Artillery Discussion Thread" so that people coming here know to strictly tow the agenda as mentioned by saaheb and nanha mujahids can rescue themselves from the ire of saaheb.


Problem is, he prevents people from airing views he doesn't like. We curse here politicians and bureaucrats all day. MMS is called a US stooge and a traitor. Bureaucrats are called worthless babus. A special thread has been opened where we can rant all we can about Modi. So what is so special about Generals that we have to be extra respectful, especially when we see some of them actively thwarting an Indian MIC from emerging? The saga of Arjun is all before us and how cold the generals have been towards it for no reason. Same with artillery gun offerings from Indian private companies.


I agree and disagree with you. Babus do get a bad deal here. But, that is a bad example we should probably move away from rather than towards. Find the general who is a traitor and call him out here. Nobody will have a problem. Don't say something derogatory against an entire post. For example, you don't call "saint defmins", "maun PMs"...

P.S. Rohit is probably the most vocal member against the decision makers when it comes to the Arjun saga. I don't take part in discussions here. But I like what he is saying. Back up your allegations with respect to this arty trials with points and you will have a cogent argument. Otherwise, the posts do look like just name-calling based on emotional rants and nothing else.

Indranil
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 24 Jul 2014 22:29

Sagar G wrote:Hain ji bhat is thiz ??? Speaking for saaheb invites ire of another saaheb !!! Bhat is going on ???

P.B.U.S. (Peace Be Upon Saaheb's)

I did not ask you to stop speaking against anybody, even a saaheb. I asked you to use the right channels. Have a problem with that?

Sagar G
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sagar G » 24 Jul 2014 22:43

indranilroy wrote:I did not ask you to stop speaking against anybody, even a saaheb. I asked you to use the right channels. Have a problem with that?


Why would I dare to speak against any saaheb ??? I demand breaking down of any channels/canals/dams which allow anybody to speak against saaheb's here.

By the way did both of you saaheb's have passed from the same school ???


Moderator - SagarG consider this a final chance to avoid getting a ban here.

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 24 Jul 2014 23:03

The fundamental problem is that a lot of posters here have no practical experience in either the forces or DRDO or even govt for that matter. Facts, analysis and constructive discussion fall prey to self righteous, bellicose and, much worse, uninformed posting. And of course facts be damned.

We are here to learn, analyse and exchange informed views so that we can build up a solid body of security issues related knowledge that is sorely lacking in India. We should keep our egos aside and focus on that - high quality, fact based posting that adds something to the discussion!!

Rohit, your posts are fantastic. And your moderation is very patient and light touch. I would strongly support a more robust approach from you and all moderators. We need to keep standards up so that a more informative and constructive discussion can happen that adds to knowledge. Please keep up the good work.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all moderators for a great job being done. You guys are credible, constructive and too patient ;-) I would be very grateful if you could tell me how to PM the moderators.

Akshay

vic
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 24 Jul 2014 23:49

Rohit has always been abusive against posters who are critical of Army import love. He has to give way on Arjun otherwise he will be a laughing stock. He writes super long posts while ignoring pertinent issues which is called obfuscation. Note in above posts he comes with obtuse rationale for howitzer trials and before that did not deal with Grad accuracy issues. He has only been protecting imports.
Last edited by Indranil on 25 Jul 2014 10:59, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Don't indulge in personal attacks. I am letting this slide.

Indranil
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 25 Jul 2014 02:35

^^^ By that same logic, your endless rants against the Army, IAF are equally monotonous. So, please spare us this hypocrisy.

@Sagar G, I have never met Rohit in person.
@Akshay Kapoor, you can pm us individually. Otherwise you can report your own posts. You can always report somebody else's post if it is in violation of forum guidelines.

@All. Stop this rona-dhona and get back to discussing artillery rather than Rohit. If you want to discuss any poster, or moderator, please take it to the feedback thread. Any further posts on this thread regarding this will be dealt with as attempt to derail this thread.

vic
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 25 Jul 2014 09:14

So our objection to rohit behaviour is hypocrisy while he is knight in shinning armour, the protector of imports, moderator of threads he participates in and killer of contrary opinion. His attitude is, I am a army kid so I know everything, you bloody civilians are useless.
Last edited by Indranil on 25 Jul 2014 10:55, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: WARNING ISSUED for derailment of thread

deejay
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 25 Jul 2014 10:20

vic wrote:So our objection to rohit behaviour is hypocrisy while he is knight in shinning armour, the protector of imports, moderator of threads he participates in and killer of contrary opinion. His attitude is, I am a army kid so I know everything, you bloody civilians are useless.


I have reported your post. Please be civilized even if you disagree.


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