Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2015 10:23

while the turkish kit looks tfta compared to ours, its in reality no different from telco or M&M having a tieup with a foreign vendor and fitting up the vehicle for indian needs.

the PARS entire family was licensed from GPV of US by the turkish concern FNSS
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gpv/

they also have tieups with BAE and Oerlikon, no doubt to source sensors , remote weapon stations, guns, and with european engine makers for the gearbox and powerplant. KMW and rheinmetall are also in the loop somewhere perhaps. being a full nato member means easy access to any such tech COTS.

for the 155mm towed guns they pulled in tech from ST kinetics of singapore, which itself seems like they source people and tech from all over given singapore's small population pool.

for the 155mm SP guns its a K9 thunder variant from samsung techwin.

so their domestic tech base is not that great, but they are executing projects by pulling in stuff rather than sit on thumbs and run in loops like we do.

its a great play for TSP sunni-sunni bhaichara which has no such capability to get finished products at reasonable price and sporting the latest western techs. ofcourse nothing beats getting stuff refurbished and free from khan's boneyard stocks but this is plan-B. they have already purchased and fielded some 155/52 towed guns from turkey....Cheen benefits at the tail end by getting to steal and clone whatever TSP gets with western fittings

----
our truck and SP guns deals seem to be going nowhere. we needed SP guns for all theaters yesterday. the K9 thunder is in play there.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 May 2015 11:30

SIngha

Bread and butter seem to get missed

some of us bemoaned the lack of simple wheeled APCs to get our forces truly mechanised
couple of hundred here and there wont do

What can explain the slow roll out of simulators in IAF as well the whole airbase improvment which is still proceeding at snails pace

We seem good at buying the billion dollar items

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 May 2015 17:59

One Armata stopped midway in the parade rehearsal.

If it had been Arjun - all hell would have broken loose

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 May 2015 19:07

latest video of Syrian BMP-1 targeted by Tow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFmKvoFjETk

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 08 May 2015 04:27

Surya wrote:One Armata stopped midway in the parade rehearsal.

If it had been Arjun - all hell would have broken loose

Don't miss the fun starting at 0:14

Indian army will get 1000s of these

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 May 2015 04:44

Yeah and 100 towing tanks

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 05:56

Arv deals are good opportunities to make money out of limelight

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 May 2015 06:08

Don't miss the fun starting at 0:14

The Indian Army guy would have put the tank into neutral.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 May 2015 06:13

Just the right weapon for India - Russian (check,), Garbage (Check). Only problem is the number - T-14! If it was T-140 then that would be fine! 140 > 90 > 80.

niran · Post by **niran** » 08 May 2015 06:16

NRao wrote:
Don't miss the fun starting at 0:14
The Indian Army guy would have put the tank into neutral.

nah! the problems seems to be Gear box or brake system or the hydraulics system or all the system failing.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 08 May 2015 06:52

^Remarkable. It has proven that its a tin can piece of garbage in the first week itself. To think we had people sabotaging the RENK transmission system in the Arjun after it has run 100s of kilometers to get it to break down and yet we chose the tin can, it boggles the mind.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 08 May 2015 08:30

i really hope we dont fall for this same trap again - but you just know that very soon retd. generals will be cropping up with nuggets of wisdom like the commonality of T series (not Gulshan Kumar, the other ones), the cutting edge design of roosi designers, Arjun "too heavy and not combat proven", supply lines and spares etc etc.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 May 2015 09:11

Guys, please stop writing sense. The Arjun is going to be canned by the IA in favor of this tank.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 08 May 2015 09:27

Pratyush wrote:Guys, please stop writing sense. The Arjun is going to be canned by the IA in favor of this tank.

while the IA's role wrt Arjun has been dubious to say the least, i am afraid IMO this 'new' tank wont find any place in IA. i base this on a refreshing change in their attitude (even if out of necessity) when one looks at their support for Dhanush (they have actively participated as per OFB with 400 odd now which i hope would increase), Akash inductions - which will grow based on the praise they heaped on it, Pinaka acquisitions (4 regiments present, huge 6 coming up based on the recent report).

as for Arjun, while T-90 continues to be their favourite, Arjun should replace the T-72s progressively instead of being upgraded.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 May 2015 10:07

Guys,get real.The tank was restarted ,moved again on its own steam and it was only one out of the several at the rehearsal which never had a glitch.In any case if ever offered to the IA,you know from past experience that it will be put through the most stringent trails and evaluation ever,that no Arjun has gone through!

So let's just debate/discuss the design.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -down.html

He later deleted that tweet and wrote another, saying: “The Armata is fully operational and left under its own steam.”

Another military source confirmed to Russian media that the incident was likely due to driver error rather than a technical failure.

Air defence missile launchers, intercontinental ballistic missile carriers and tanks rumbled through central Moscow in a rehearsal of the military parade to be held on Saturday, when Russia marks the 70th anniversary of the end of what it calls the Great Patriotic War.

The stalled tank – which was stationary for about 15 minutes - was an embarrassment for the military. Dmitry Rogozin, the deputy prime minister in charge of defence, called the T-14 “a beauty” earlier this week, and Russian experts have been lauding its superiority to Western rivals such as the US Abrams and British Challenger.

The T-14 Armata is to be the main battle tank of Russia’s ground forces, and 2,300 are expected to be produced for the army by 2020. It has a remotely-controlled turret with an automatic weapons loading system and an armoured capsule for the three-man crew.

As a “combat platform”, the Armata can be also adapted as other tracked vehicles such as an infantry fighting vehicle and a self-propelled artillery unit.

Ck the video-clip in the link.
What are the 5+5 cylindrical containers on either side of the turret beneath the turret overhang? They appear to be ATGMs.If so, neat way of protecting them from fire/projectiles.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 08 May 2015 10:22

Surya wrote:One Armata stopped midway in the parade rehearsal.

If it had been Arjun - all hell would have broken loose

What Rubbish! It stopped, so that Indian Army Jarnails can get a better look and immediately raise demand for import of 10,000 Armata tanks to fight 2.5 front imminent war.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 08 May 2015 11:30

Someone just got himself a long 'vacation' to siberia

sivab wrote:
Surya wrote:One Armata stopped midway in the parade rehearsal.

If it had been Arjun - all hell would have broken loose

Don't miss the fun starting at 0:14

Indian army will get 1000s of these

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2015 11:43

According to discussion on tanknet forum Tank driver screwed up and to prevent damage to engine/transmission, diagnostic system shut down vehicle with gear engaged. They tried to use ARV to move it, but with engaged gear it was not possible. Later a trained driver/technician from UVZ came and started tank that drived back on his own.

After 15 mins the tank went on its own power

Video
http://ruptly.tv/vod/view/28111/russia- ... -rehearsal

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 May 2015 12:01

Philip wrote:Guys,get real.The tank was restarted ,moved again on its own steam and it was only one out of the several at the rehearsal which never had a glitch.

Solid achievement. Running without a glitch for a couple of miles of paved road.

Rather unfortunate and embarrassing incident for the tank developers, but really weird defence of the tank on your part.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 May 2015 13:34

Apparently the T-15 (soon to be our FICV) also stalled mid-stride -

Viewers found its loading on a transporter at least as entertaining as the parade itself.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2015 16:01

T-15 is not a FICV class but more in class of Merkava Namer

http://www.military-today.com/apc/namer.htm

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2015 16:03

Some special features of Russia's new generation Armata combat platform disclosed

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 May 2015 17:47

and the same drama continues

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 May 2015 17:55

Austin wrote:T-15 is not a FICV class but more in class of Merkava Namer

FICV's just an acronym. Sure there is a GSQR for the FICV, but then it was the same army that wrote the GSQR for the Arjun (hence the 120mm rifled gun, four man crew etc), while then choosing to buy something entirely different.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 18:12

the namer is in 60t class given its vast size and israeli emphasis on armour as #1 priority including heavy AT mines and top attack protection.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 May 2015 19:53

Philip wrote:Guys,get real.The tank was restarted ,moved again on its own steam and it was only one out of the several at the rehearsal which never had a glitch.In any case if ever offered to the IA,you know from past experience that it will be put through the most stringent trails and evaluation ever,that no Arjun has gone through!

Arjun's been through more stringent trials, than that piece of junk, the T-90.
LOL, if anything, we know from past experience, the Russian tank guys will fib through their teeth and sell us some junk that doesn't even work & will require a mix of Indian, French and Israeli work to even be functional.
Of course dalals and their local representatives will claim otherwise.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 May 2015 20:00

Just waiting for IA to lament that Arjun doesn't have unmanned turret and crucial lives were being put at risk by DRDO's don't care attitude?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 20:23

is the gunner able to enter and exit his hatch with the turret in any position?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 May 2015 20:43

I like this "driver error" theory. It is really ingenious.

Austin, what you are saying could have happened. But imagine a tank rolling down a smooth road at a constant easy pace. Whatever fails at this simplest of use cases, software or hardware, it is still a failure and quite frankly an embarrassment. There is no two ways about it in my mind.

But, I like the looks of the tank. I don't understand tanks much. So gyanis what are the advantages/disadvantages of this design. If it is mostly advantageous, what will it take to modify A2 to a similar configuration?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 21:08

the fact that nobody has gone for 3 man unmanned turret despite all the tech being available for 2 decades should tell us something.

a human loader can fire faster than a autoloader, change types of rounds faster and can do useful duties in the field like helping repair blown tracks and loading the rounds.....for infantry support having a loader means one MMG, one HMG and the coax MMG can be brought to bear. Armata has all of one RWS on top and no apparent coax.

nobody has even tried a unmanned turret in a IFV yet I think.

but not sitting on top of the ammo is a step forward

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 21:13

has anyone on tanknet estimated its armour levels and gun yet?

vina · Post by **vina** » 08 May 2015 21:44

but not sitting on top of the ammo is a step forward

This Armata business is just so much kakoose. It is a F-35 esque tank gone mad. The same chassis can be a tank or an IFV , with engines either in the front or on the back. WTF will that be optimal, and the only common thing between an IFV and the tank would be just the chassis. Even the engine , chassis and armor levels will be different, and of course the entire electronics and gun !

As for the fully "automated" turrent, there is this talk about artificial intelligence stuff for target selection and firing/ whatever.That is such a hard thing to do, even in the best of situations, in the fog of war and rapid action and not in a test range, wonder how that entire thing would work. Ah, conveniently there is a "manual" back up mode. Safely said that this is a dead end. No way, AI tech isnt mature enough ( I cant trust it pick something like friggin stocks and bonds) for this sort of stuff. How the hell would you know that what the system is hosing down with it's gun is not a fellow tank from your squadron and that it can reject false negatives like an enemy tank spoofing?

Think about it. The Indian kid who was charged in Britain for flash crash would never have spoofed a normal human trader, who does it day in and day out and in every market for thousands of years,but what got spoofed and did a dhoti shiver were the high frequency algos which all sold off and crashed the market!

The Russians better get the basics right of having well protected crew compartment,mobility and firepower and leave tactics and target selection to a trained crew and not some gold plated AI junk stuff. God save us if any of the IA brass of the DGMF kind get sold on this snake oil . Given just how criminally cretinous some of the earlier ones who did their utmost to can the Arjun were, I wouldnt put it past them. They wouldnt know a rat's Musharraf of about this , but just regurgitate the verbal vomit of the Roosi brochures. We are going to see brochuritis running wild for the follow up versions of the Arjun.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 21:50

T-15 to its credit is definitely a step forward from the brilliance of the BMP3

even DGMF could not find anything good to say about that dog turd.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 May 2015 22:40

Singha wrote:has anyone on tanknet estimated its armour levels and gun yet?

they think its a sheet metal vismod

VibhavS · Post by **VibhavS** » 09 May 2015 05:45

There were allegations of it being exactly that.
http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2015/05/blog-post_7.html

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 09 May 2015 05:52

Philip wrote:Guys,get real.The tank was restarted ,moved again on its own steam and it was only one out of the several at the rehearsal which never had a glitch.In any case if ever offered to the IA,you know from past experience that it will be put through the most stringent trails and evaluation ever,that no Arjun has gone through!

VibhavS · Post by **VibhavS** » 09 May 2015 06:12

^:rotfl:

hilarious...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 May 2015 06:53

VibhavS wrote:There were allegations of it being exactly that.
http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2015/05/blog-post_7.html

Well, in their defense, it is still a classified "product". So, fully expect some hype (for the parade/event/etc, but they - IMHO - will not reveal too much.

????

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2015 07:50

the claim is that low-RCS composite material covers all the stuff in the turret .... hence some of the angled panels ...

hopefully this POS will die a early death and never bother us!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 May 2015 09:00

The Russians have invested too much H&D in this project to abandon it today. They will make it work by selling it to India and take indian money to resolve problems with the tanks.