Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2017 21:02

T-72B3 with Additional Protection ( Upgraded T-72 )

https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/h/a/cHAudXNl ... kyMjU5.jpg
https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/h/a/cHAudXNl ... kyMjU5.jpg
https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/h/a/cHAudXNl ... kyMjU5.jpg
https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/h/a/cHAudXNl ... kyMjU5.jpg
https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/h/a/cHAudXNl ... kyMjU5.jpg

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Apr 2017 15:22

Gun: 125MM for the T-90 vs 120 for the Arjun.Germany is to increase calibre of its Leopard MBTs to match Russin std.Armata has a !%2mm option too.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/armatas- ... 382/page-2
Armata’s next supreme 152mm gun to sport super-piercing shell that can penetrate a "metre of armour"
Discussion in 'Equipment & Gear' started by Khalid Newazi, May 14, 2015.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /85920592/
German Rheinmetall works on new 130mm tank gun
By: Lars Hoffmann, June 15, 2016

According to the company, the increase of 8 percent in caliber results in 50 percent more kinetic energy over the 120mm gun from Rheinmetall, installed in thousands of tanks worldwide.

The presentation at the Eurosatory defense show, taking place in Paris this week, comes as Russia adopts a new generation of armored vehicles — including the Armata MBT — with enhanced protection and a renaissance of classical, mechanized armored forces.

The kinetic energy increase reported for a small increase in calibre explains why larger guns are preferred when faced with modern ERA armour.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 10 Apr 2017 17:18

German Rheinmetall works on new 130mm tank gun

Interesting. Wonder how they have/are addressing the various related issues, other than the weight of the shell.

Like height, width and weight of the tank itself.. and thereby it's possible transport and mobility contraints

Some points mentioned in this older article

Another article i came across some time back.. an overview of the western and russian tank philosophies

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Apr 2017 20:42

Was the engine of Arjun imported directly from MTU or was it assembled in India at CVRDE?

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 11 Apr 2017 22:44

***My Speculation **
1.Engine Imported directly from MTU (Rs. 5.2 crore per piece in 1990s), and no effort to localise it. CVRDE is betting on a local project called "Bharat Power Pack" to replace it, with help from Kirloskar, AVL and others. This new engine is to have 1800 hp power.
2. Renk gearbox is imported separately. A prototype DRDO transmission exists to replace this, capable of handling upto 1500 hp power.
3. No luck with MTU consultancy , who also refused to sell a 1500 hp engine.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Apr 2017 22:50

I have read about the 1800 hp engine, but have not seen much developments.

They did a feasibility study with two foreign consultants for building the 1500 hp engine in India. Both of the consultants said that it was possible and that the CVRDE along with them finished a preliminary design. It has now asked for a primary nodal agency to refine and manufacture this engine. CVRDE will couple it to the transmission. They envisage that the final engine to be integrated onto armour vehicles will need at least two iterations and allotted 5 years for the process.

Tata won the contract for manufacturing WHAP's engines. Let's see who wins this one.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2017 23:33

HEC Ranchi has a very big foundry that can cast the engine blocks.

Don't know how its doing now.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 12 Apr 2017 00:09

Also, RDSO Lucknow makes the desi 16 cyl 4 stroke diesel with 3200 hp, and electronic fuel injection. A smaller version might work for this application.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Apr 2017 00:10

dinesh_kimar wrote:Also, RDSO Lucknow makes the desi 16 cyl 4 stroke diesel with 3200 hp, and electronic fuel injection. A smaller version might work for this application.

What is this engine used in?

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 12 Apr 2017 00:11

WD5 Locomotive

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 12 Apr 2017 00:29

You will not see any significant investment in Engine building capacity unless there is a substantial number of orders for the Arjun.
Right now there is doubt if even the measly order of about 100 Mk2s will be procured.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Apr 2017 00:51

Srutayus wrote:You will not see any significant investment in Engine building capacity unless there is a substantial number of orders for the Arjun.
Right now there is doubt if even the measly order of about 100 Mk2s will be procured.

It may not be useful for the Arjun but it can definitely be used in the FMBT no.. It may also be required for a SPH based on ATAGS in future so the technology and know how should be looked into now.

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 12 Apr 2017 01:28

It may not be useful for the Arjun but it can definitely be used in the FMBT no.. It may also be required for a SPH based on ATAGS in future so the technology and know how should be looked into now.

Indeed the knowhow for the engine can be looked into and there appears to be a project by DRDO to do that.

But for a commercial entity to productionize this technology and invest to build it, the saga of the Arjun gives little confidence that indigenous armored vehicles with a local supply chain will be allowed to be commercially viable.

Of course, I sincerely wish otherwise and hope the best for the Arjun as well as for all other indigenous endeavors.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Apr 2017 01:52

dinesh_kimar wrote:Also, RDSO Lucknow makes the desi 16 cyl 4 stroke diesel with 3200 hp, and electronic fuel injection. A smaller version might work for this application.

Here are some of the desired specs of the details of the engine sought:

Engine Type : 12 Cylinder, 4-stroke, V-90 configuration, Turbocharged, Intercooled, DI, liquid cooled Diesel Engine
1100 kW as per ISO 1585 (w/o fan) (no degradation till 55 C at SL and up to 1000 MSL. Minimum degradation up to 5000 MSL)
SFC @ peak torque speed: 210 g/kW.hr(Max.)
Swept Volume : 25 dm3 (minimum)
Maximum allowed rated speed : 2800 rpm
Dimensions
- Length: 1570 mm
  Width: 1025 mm
  Height: 1115 mm
Dry weight : 2200 kg max (Including engine constituents) Target is 2100 kg.

I don't believe that anything in this power to weight ratio is built in India.

They are planning to mate this engine with Arjun's Renk transmission.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Apr 2017 07:38

Philip wrote:Gun: 125MM for the T-90 vs 120 for the Arjun.Germany is to increase calibre of its Leopard MBTs to match Russin std.Armata has a !%2mm option too.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/armatas- ... 382/page-2
Armata’s next supreme 152mm gun to sport super-piercing shell that can penetrate a "metre of armour"
Discussion in 'Equipment & Gear' started by Khalid Newazi, May 14, 2015.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /85920592/
German Rheinmetall works on new 130mm tank gun
By: Lars Hoffmann, June 15, 2016
According to the company, the increase of 8 percent in caliber results in 50 percent more kinetic energy over the 120mm gun from Rheinmetall, installed in thousands of tanks worldwide.

The presentation at the Eurosatory defense show, taking place in Paris this week, comes as Russia adopts a new generation of armored vehicles — including the Armata MBT — with enhanced protection and a renaissance of classical, mechanized armored forces.
The kinetic energy increase reported for a small increase in calibre explains why larger guns are preferred when faced with modern ERA armour.

The Germans and the Russians are never actually going to fight a war with these weapons. They will sell it to third worlders who slobber over these specs who will fight the wars and the side that gets its ass whupped will whine and complain for which these countries will build and even more advanced tank with some capabilities that were not there the last time round. This is the tank version of iPhone 4, 5, 6 etc

All this brochure talk of "increase of 8 percent in caliber results in 50 percent more kinetic energy over the 120mm gun " is a load of jargon meant to dazzle the reader. Heavier mass and/or higher velocity both result in higher KE. Sabot discarding rounds depend on velocity while DU rounds depend on mass and a unique property of Uranium. The Russians will hope to sell to middle east and India and African nations. Germany will sell to the enemies of those nations.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 12 Apr 2017 09:10

Well since Caliber means increase in barrel length not in dia. Increase in barrel diameter would actually reduce the caliber and KE unless the barrel length is increased by a multiple of caliber. So an 8% increase of 120mm barrel of 45 caliber gun, gets you 130 mm dia but your caliber would decrease to 41.5 and KE gained from additional propellant would get balanced by higher weight of shell and lower caliber of system. Acuuracy loss, low barrel life, wear and tare on chassis and many other myriad issues will crop up.

I think Basic science shows that a better way is to increase the caliber by lengthning the barrel, if technolgy can be developed. Since KE increases proportional to the square of muzzle velocity as compared to proportional increase of KE for increase in shell weight, length increase seems the way to go.

Better Penetration can be achieved by reducing the dia of shell which concentrates the KE at impact point so lengthening the barrel and higher aspect ratio shells would give much better pay off than making the barrel and shell combo bulky.

Again many ways to skin a cat.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Apr 2017 19:13

Can we put a NSFW warning above? Its the heights of irresponsibility to put such links without the same.

Will · Post by **Will** » 13 Apr 2017 21:38

Sumair wrote:I had so much hope from the Modi government regarding the procurement mess and obsession of defense forces for the foreign maal; but alas. Seems like no hope is left.

Well it seems that arms agents and the bureaucracy are so deeply entrenched in the system that no matter which govt.. not much headway can be made till everyone gets their cut.

RohitAM · Post by **RohitAM** » 14 Apr 2017 02:44

Beating their chests around the "Arjun is overweight" and " we don't have the supporting infrastructure for it" and "we are standardized on the T-series (so were cassettes, but we moved onto CD's and iPods and what not)" should ideally not get the Army anywhere, especially the DGMF which seems to leave no stone unturned to scuttle the Arjun acquisition in favour of its cut for the T-90 purchase. Fact of the matter is, the Arjun has hammered the T-90 hollow on all performance, technical, and technological parameters, 80 years of Russian tank know-how be damned!!! In fact, the entire matter is a fiasco unrivaled anywhere on the planet - the Army gets substandard tanks from Russia, and then gets them upgraded with indigenous technology developed for the Arjun!!! I know of no other country, army, or an MoD which does that.

Whoever keeps approving this acquisition, whether on the Army side or in the MoD, is no less than a Pakistani, and should be taken to India Gate and shot in the head with a live broadcast on all channels - that should make these traitorous snakes pause in their tracks the next time they want to undermine an indigenous product in favour of importing a half-baked foreign one, just to fill their pockets. A 7.62mm lead bullet to empty their heads should be the right treatment for such mad men.

Rant Over...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2017 03:29

RohitAM, Sounds like Bollywood angry young man movie script. Don't post such stuff in this forum. Use GDF.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2017 03:57

I agree with the "traitor" part. This action of denying further orders to the Arjun is an act of treason. It not only denies the tank troops a superior tank that offers not only enhanced protection but also greater comfort mobility and ease of upgradation but also destroys an opportunity to build Indian capability in this area. The latter is of greater concern since it succeeds in ensuring dependence on foreign junk for decades.
Andher nagari, chaupat Raja, take ser bhaji, take ser khaja! Sab chalta hai. Roosi maal kharid ke India Super Roosi client ban jayega!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2017 04:46

Akshay Kapoor, rohitvats,
A question on the performance of light tanks in Indian Army experience in both the 1965 and 197 wars? How did they perform and what were the losses?

In 1965 AMX 13 and some Sherman were there.

In 1971 there were PT-76. However these were more for water crossings.

I read that it was the Centurions in 1965 that saved the day.

is there a History of the Armoured Corps type of website?

Regt Center is in Ahmednagar right?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Apr 2017 10:53

ramana wrote:Regt Center is in Ahmednagar right?

Yup!! The regimental Center, Armoured Corps Center and School, is in Ahmednagar.. The history, afaik is kept at a unit level, never heard of a Corps history..

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Apr 2017 16:23

Request for Proposal for Supply of Development and Supply of 1500 hp Engine.
RFP Ref No: CVRDE/MMG/OT/18ATT002/17-18
Title: CVRDE- DEVELOPMENT AND SUPPLY OF 1500 hp ENGINE
Work Description: DEVELOPMENT AND SUPPLY OF 1500 hp ENGINE
Published Date: 11 Apr 2017
Bid Submission End Date: 30 May 2017
Bid Opening Date: 01 Jun 2017

From here:

Clicky

Appendix – B
Specification for 1500 hp Engine

Engine Type : 12 Cylinder, 4-stroke, V-90 configuration, Turbocharged, Intercooled, DI, liquid cooled Diesel Engine

Swept Volume : 25 dm3 (minimum)

Rated Power : 1100 kW as per ISO 1585 (w/o fan)
a) Performance at 55 C ambient temperature at sea level : No power reduction allowed
b) Performance at 1000m altitude : No power reduction allowed
c) Performance at 5000m altitude : Engine should be able to operate upto 5000m altitude safely. Minimum power reduction is permissible at this altitude.

Torque backup (min) : 18% at 60%-65% of rated engine speed

Maximum allowed rated speed : 2800 rpm

Power at 50% rated speed (min) : 610 kW

Power at idling speed (min) : 140 kW

SFC at peak torque speed : 210 g/kW.hr (max)

Continuous over speed : 110% of rated speed

Instantaneous over speed : 125% of rated speed

Engine Dimensions : Engine with all its constituents will have the following dimensions:
Length: 1570 mm
Width: 1025 mm
Height: 1115 mm
(Refer Annexure-‘7’ for Engine constituents and Annexure – ‘10’& ‘11’ for compartment dimensional details)

Engine Life (for Qualification) : 400 hrs as per CVRDE Driving Cycle (Details as given in Annexure - '1')

Engine Life (before overhauling) : 1200 hrs as per the operating profile given at Annexure - ‘2’. Engine shall undergo 3 overhauls as given at Annexure `3’

Fuel : Diesel DHPP-A and its variants (properties given at Annexure - `4’)

Permissible inclination of Engine : 35° in any direction. Engine should be able to stop for any duration and start under these
inclinations

Dry Weight i. Max. Permitted : 2200 kg ii. Desired weight limit : 2100 kg (Refer Annexure – ‘7’ for engine constituents)

Startability : Engine should be able to start at -300 C with starting aid.

Starting method : Electrical and air starting

Generator Output : 40 kW (28V)

Smoke : < 0.6 FSN under standard full load conditions < 1.5 FSN under all conditions (excluding transients) < 4.0 FSN during transients

Fuel Injection system : Features as per Annexure - ‘5’
Primary – CRDI
Fallback – Mechanical
Alternate – CRDI

Unique design requirements : As per Annexure - ‘6’

Engine constituents : As per Annexure - ‘7’

Heat Rejection Limit : At 25 deg C ambient temperature and 0.99 bar atmospheric pressure, when the engine is running at rated speed and producing 1100 kW power, the combined total heat rejection to the coolant and oil should not exceed 570 kW.(Coolant temperature shall be between 85°C & 95°C. Oil temperature shall be between 90°C & 100°C)

Note: The details of Annexure 1 to 11 will be provided to the bidders upon request and on submission of NDA as mentioned in Para 2.a of Part V of RFP.

Appendix - `C’
SCOPE OF WORK FOR CONCEPT REVIEW AND REFINEMENT
Milestone-1.a: Concept Review and Refinement
1. The engine specification (Appendix ‘B’) and concept (Appendix ‘Q’) have been defined by CVRDE with the following salient features:
• Bore: 138 mm, Stroke: 145 mm, 12 cylinder V-90 engine
• Rated speed: 2600 rpm
• Unit pump based common rail FIS
• Over head valve design
• Individual cylinder heads ………………………..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2017 18:40

ramana wrote:Akshay Kapoor, rohitvats,
A question on the performance of light tanks in Indian Army experience in both the 1965 and 197 wars? How did they perform and what were the losses?

In 1965 AMX 13 and some Sherman were there.

In 1971 there were PT-76. However these were more for water crossings.

I read that it was the Centurions in 1965 that saved the day.

is there a History of the Armoured Corps type of website?

Regt Center is in Ahmednagar right?

Q not addressed to me but I recently read two accounts of PT-76 in BDesh
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/indias ... b3281b2099
http://ciar.org/ttk/mbt/armor/armor-mag ... t76-01.pdf

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 14 Apr 2017 18:56

ramana wrote:A question on the performance of light tanks in Indian Army experience in both the 1965 and 197 wars? How did they perform and what were the losses? In 1965 AMX 13 and some Sherman were there.

In 1948 light tanks and armored cars like the Stuarts and Humbers were war-winners in OP Bison, Polo, etc. Pakistanis are still wringing their hands over the beatings they took from these units.

AMX-13 had minimal armor (only small-arms protection) and weak engines, but it packed a powerful gun. It was best suited for ambush, where you hide the tank behind a bund in a paddy-field, and let other tanks or infantry lure in the enemy into the kill-zone. As such, it was more a mobile tank-destroyer than a true tank.

Today most of the light-tank type of work in mountains and swamps can be done by IFVs -- especially BMP-3 type IFVs which also have a large gun capable of knocking off sangars at higher elevation... which is how we were using the Stuarts in liberation of Zoji La. Helo-gunships can now provide the tactical surprise and logistical nightmare that early IA commanders inflicted on the enemy using light tanks / armored vehicles.

Now this is not to say there is no use for light tanks, as an army may choose lighter tanks for strategic mobility, fuel considerations, etc, but they are still in the medium/main battle tank class. For example, the Japanese GSDF reduced the weight of their MBTs back to 45T with the Type 10 tank, when they realized the fuel considerations and weight supported by Japanese bridges (>95% of main bridges can be traversed in Japan in this weight class versus ~80% with 50T Type 90 MBTs).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2017 16:14

detailed analysis of ISIS tactics in eastern mosul

https://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/defeat-b ... e-of-mosul

I hope IA has a plan to fight rapidly through heavily built up villages and towns in west

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Apr 2017 02:44

Dust & rocky roads’ made half of German combat vehicles in Mali inoperative – media

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 20 Apr 2017 04:42

ramana wrote:Akshay Kapoor, rohitvats,
A question on the performance of light tanks in Indian Army experience in both the 1965 and 197 wars? How did they perform and what were the losses?

In 1965 AMX 13 and some Sherman were there.

In 1971 there were PT-76. However these were more for water crossings.

I read that it was the Centurions in 1965 that saved the day.

is there a History of the Armoured Corps type of website?

Regt Center is in Ahmednagar right?

Ramana: There are two videos on youtube with some info on 1965 that goes beyond the usual. Both made
by the same person. Both videos of Chhamb has some info about AMX 13 tanks and so does the one on Assal Uttar. AMX 13 were also taken to Chushul in 1962 if memory serves me, but too late and to what end. Assal Uttar had Fleur-de-Lis brigade with AMX 13 tanks which was given a bit of teeth with some Centurions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e32IFuu7pEA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLzAHmHWgw

I had posted these links in the multimedia thread some time back.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2017 09:22

Indian Army's tank modification proposals could delay induction by 7 years

Vivek Raghuvanshi Alert

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army is seeking major structural and design changes in the homegrown Arjun Mk-2, but the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization says the "changes" could take up to seven years, causing a delay in the induction schedule.

The service wants DRDO to redesign the hull, the turret structures and use newer material to reduce the tank's weight. The Arjun Mk-2 currently weighs about 68.6 tons, compared to the 62-ton Arjun Mk-1 tank currently in operation with the Army. The Mk-2 version's weight makes it inappropriate for operations in the semi-developed sector of the western front bordering Pakistan where tank battles would take place, according to an Indian Army official.

According to a defense analyst here, the Army "has lost interest in the Arjun Mark-2" after it became disillusioned with the earlier version. "The problem is that the basic structure and profile of the tank being heavy is not acceptable to the Army," said Rahul Bhonsle, who retired from the service as a brigadier.

The Indian Army has inducted 124 Arjun Mk-1 tanks, but several were grounded after requiring spare parts and maintenance. "Nearly 55 percent of the value of Arjun Mark-1 tank is imported components, and there the supplies have dried up."

A DRDO scientist who spoke to Defense News would not comment on the Army's modification proposals, but did say the Arjun Mk-2 is "ready for induction," has a total of 93 upgrades including 13 major improvements and "will fully meet the needs of the Indian Army."

The major changes to the Arjun Mk-2 include an upgrade of the missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to effectively engage targets at night, containerized ammunition, enhanced main-weapon penetration, additional ammunition types, explosive-reactive armor, an advanced air-defense gun to engage helicopters, a mine plow, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system that can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance.

"Arjun Mark-2, with [a] number of improvements over Arjun Mark-I, is a third-generation tank comparable with others in range and confirmed acceptable after trial and evaluation by users. Hence, there should be no reason for its not being fit for combat," according to Bhupinder Yadav, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army major general.

The Army has about 3,500 tanks made up of T-72 tanks and the newer T-90 tanks.

"All T-72 tanks in service would have lived their life in [the] next 10 years and will require replacement," Yadav said.

To meet future tank needs, analysts tend to agree that India should invest in a new, homemade Future Main Battle Tank, or FMBT, based on lessons learned from the Arjun Mk-1 and Mk-2.

"India, with the experience of the development of two variants, should go on its own, and the new design should have homogeneity with the existing inventory," Yadav offered.

Bhonsle agreed: "India should pursue a single project such as the FMBT with the Army, DRDO and other agencies including foreign research and design developers and private sector joining in a coordinated effort."

mody · Post by **mody** » 27 Apr 2017 18:15

There is absolutely no hope for the Arjun MK-II. The only possible solution is that GOI/MoD forces the army to accept upto 500 Arjun MK-II and then makes DRDO and Army sit together to thrash out the specs for FMBT. Maybe we can station 2 regiments of Arjun MK-II in Ladakh.
A 6 month deadline should be fixed to come with the exact specs for the FMBT, with the usual 'must have' and 'would be nice if it has' feature list.

The army on its own is possibly never going to place an order for Arjun MK-II.

Apart from this, the army should be made to list out all the features and technologies developed of the Arjun program that it likes. DRDO and army should then examine how to leverage these for upgrading the T-72 and T-90 tanks.

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 27 Apr 2017 20:22

DRDO and Army sit together to thrash out the specs for FMBT

Problem is going to be the same - what will make the Army stick to the specs after the product achieves it?
The Arjun was developed to the Army's GSQR.

Typical product development process for Indian products is for the Army to set impossible specs -> for DRDO to develop against this even as they try to keep up with a GSQR that keeps changing all the time -> Hard work from the DRDO team finally sees a product that meets the difficult specs before the next change in the requirements -> Army wants finished product to meet brand new Requirements not in any of the original Requirements -> back to square one -> Imported product with a much diluted set of requirements, which it might not completely meet is inducted in numbers.
Of course, generations literally pass by as these cycles repeat themselves. And the press is filled with articles excoriating DRDO written by journalists with little knowledge of defence matters, and enjoying the hospitality of arms merchants and their middlemen on foreign jaunts. One wonders what the morale in these teams in DRDO is after a cycle of two of this.

By the way, which MBT in the world has been weighed and made to undergo mobility trials with a Mine Plough as an integral part of it?
Which other fire and forget anti-tank missile can thermally lock on to a target at 7km range in the mid-summer heat of Rajasthan as is required of the Nag - do any of the imported anti-tank missiles (Pars & Spike) being considered meet the requirement that the Nag is being held to, can they even match the current capability of the Nag?

It is important to address the institutional or other factors in the Armed forces that are the root cause of this. What is the point of discussing India's potential as a major world power until these fundamental issues are resolved?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Apr 2017 21:55

Indian Army's tank modification proposals could delay induction by 7 years

Vivek Raghuvanshi Alert

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army is seeking major structural and design changes in the homegrown Arjun Mk-2, but the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization says the "changes" could take up to seven years, causing a delay in the induction schedule.

The service wants DRDO to redesign the hull, the turret structures and use newer material to reduce the tank's weight. The Arjun Mk-2 currently weighs about 68.6 tons, compared to the 62-ton Arjun Mk-1 tank currently in operation with the Army. The Mk-2 version's weight makes it inappropriate for operations in the semi-developed sector of the western front bordering Pakistan where tank battles would take place, according to an Indian Army official.

According to a defense analyst here, the Army "has lost interest in the Arjun Mark-2" after it became disillusioned with the earlier version. "The problem is that the basic structure and profile of the tank being heavy is not acceptable to the Army," said Rahul Bhonsle, who retired from the service as a brigadier.

The Indian Army has inducted 124 Arjun Mk-1 tanks, but several were grounded after requiring spare parts and maintenance. "Nearly 55 percent of the value of Arjun Mark-1 tank is imported components, and there the supplies have dried up."

A DRDO scientist who spoke to Defense News would not comment on the Army's modification proposals, but did say the Arjun Mk-2 is "ready for induction," has a total of 93 upgrades including 13 major improvements and "will fully meet the needs of the Indian Army."

The major changes to the Arjun Mk-2 include an upgrade of the missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to effectively engage targets at night, containerized ammunition, enhanced main-weapon penetration, additional ammunition types, explosive-reactive armor, an advanced air-defense gun to engage helicopters, a mine plow, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system that can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance.

"Arjun Mark-2, with [a] number of improvements over Arjun Mark-I, is a third-generation tank comparable with others in range and confirmed acceptable after trial and evaluation by users. Hence, there should be no reason for its not being fit for combat," according to Bhupinder Yadav, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army major general.

The Army has about 3,500 tanks made up of T-72 tanks and the newer T-90 tanks.

"All T-72 tanks in service would have lived their life in [the] next 10 years and will require replacement," Yadav said.

To meet future tank needs, analysts tend to agree that India should invest in a new, homemade Future Main Battle Tank, or FMBT, based on lessons learned from the Arjun Mk-1 and Mk-2.

"India, with the experience of the development of two variants, should go on its own, and the new design should have homogeneity with the existing inventory," Yadav offered.

Bhonsle agreed: "India should pursue a single project such as the FMBT with the Army, DRDO and other agencies including foreign research and design developers and private sector joining in a coordinated effort."

The DRDO made the 93 improvements that the IA armored corps asked for. Its weight before the improvements was ~60Tonnes. Now its 68 tonnes. If they had said make those 93 improvement with no weight gain it would have been thrown out.
After the improvements are made to cry weight gain is bad faith. What were they doing while the improvements were made?
At what level were those improvements suggested?
Did those who make those suggestions have no say in the acceptance of the final product?
If so they had no right to make such suggestions.
Will they speak up now or keep quiet?

The DRDO director S. Christopher has stated in his interview that more tanks would be built to equip two brigades. He also suggested some weight reduction could occur.
Now this article comes which shows the IA wants another new tank and that takes 7 years to get produced.
The Arjun has outgunned and out shot the T-90s in many competitions.
The transportation tissue is bogus. Forward deploy these Arjun tanks so you don't have to deep base them. Build the base repair depots also where the tanks are deployed.

A heavy armored division with all Arjuns will make mince meat of the Pakis.

Even if employed as single brigades it can be the core of four armored divisions.
it was Brig. Theograj who defeated the Pak armored division at Assal Uttar with his Centurions. Imagine if he had AMX-15s.

Meantime the new design can be built.
Can't kick start a production line after 7 years of no activity suddenly.
Cost is for MoD to worry.

Where there is a will there is a way.

The IA has no will for the Arjun and has made those suggestions without good faith.

The armored corps does not want to fight.
They want to be in parades in New Delhi.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 27 Apr 2017 22:56

Mother Russias embrace is too loving.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Apr 2017 01:31

Da! DRDO need to listen to the IA reg MBT weight.
After the advent of the Armata,global manufacturers are rrvising their concepts.A 3 man crew and auto-loader the min. requiremrnt,heavier gun,self-defence suite with adequate armour protection,ERA panels,etc.
An MBT of just undrr 60t would be acceptable.
Look at the huge imported conentt of Arjun.One is sure that there is a cost. factor at work here also affecting acwuisition.

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 28 Apr 2017 01:50

Russian sales crew is here already.
That was fast.

Import content cannot be reduced without substantial orders as has been repeated many times on this forum. 500+ orders for Arjun Mk2.

How many more times have the same things to be repeated? Let us not also have to repeat all the elucidation of weight issues which has been explained on this forum for the last 10 years again. Almost like the repetitive development and trials cycle forced on to Indian products to keep them from ever being inducted.
In the end Indian developers will tire and give up as will those that defend them and the way will be clear for more imports. Hallelujah!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Apr 2017 02:01

Philip wrote: Look at the huge imported conentt of Arjun.One is sure that there is a cost. factor at work here also affecting acwuisition.

As opposed to the 400% indigenous T-90 and the Armata of course.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Apr 2017 02:03

I think Philip has the insight into the mindset of the Armored Crops folks.

Its like channeling.

Don't blame him.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Apr 2017 11:40

Ramanna,close to the reality of the situ.IA /AC want large numbers ,easy to operate,maintain,cannibalise,take anywhere,move anywhere,making use of std. existing logistic eqpt.Given the larger size of Arjun,weight,etc.,and costs too,the IA appears reluctant to invest in it,used to the smaller 3-man crew T-series. I think it was almost 2 years ago when the IA gave the DRDO their FMBT reqs.(much the same as mentioned earlier) and the DRDO/CVRDE said that it was "impossible". That was during Dr.Saraswat's time( ?). There does seem to be a serious communication gap between end-user IA and the DRDO/CVRDE.

I am at loss to understand why we couldn't have produced a simple MBT ,taking a leaf from the T-series,cloned,with extra bells and whistles -let's say a WW2 "T-34" cost-effective approach,instead of straight away trying to produce the best tank in the world when a huge % of the Arjun is imported! The key factor is the engine,same with the LCA,why the HF-24 retired early. Having produced "under licence" almost 2000 T-72s,and more T-90s,our lack of innovation in AVs stands out when we've successfully innovated in many other systems elsewhere. Even a follow on to the BMP series has been lacking and we're now simply upgrading the existing lot,with the pvt. sector just getting a toehold into ICVs.

After the Armata's arrival,a revolution in tank/AV design,even western MBT OEMs are racing to improve their existing MBTs with larger main guns,etc. For the moment it looks like T-90s are here to stay in v.large nos.,most manufactured at Avadi. Notwithstanding whatever happens to A MK-2,the CVRDE would be best advised to sit with the IA and jointly work out an FMBT concept together with the MOD/GOI looking over their shoulders so that timelines are maintained and it does not end up as another "tech-demo" exercise.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 28 Apr 2017 11:50

>>DRDO need to listen to the IA
>>CVRDE would be best advised to sit with the IA
So where did the ASR for Arjun come from?

Ramana saar, sorry to be blunt but what Philip says here is utter rubbish. The only insight that is provided here is how DGMF decides to subvert the purchase process to benefit the Russian lobby. It is a right shame and any serving/retired officer who turns up on this thread to defend their actions must first be asked to explain how Babus could subvert the acquisition of an MBT DESPITE the IA being clearly the party that is giving the DRDO a BS set of ASRs and updates.