Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

merlin
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby merlin » 02 Sep 2014 13:52

I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint. We are going to pay a heavy price for all the delays. I wonder if the Abhay prototype can be taken as the base and all the companies allowed to take their stab in submitting proposals based on it and the best proposal wins for quicker procurement.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Picklu » 02 Sep 2014 13:58

merlin wrote:I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint.


I believe Chakoji has a complete list (tongue firmly in cheek)

ducks and runs for cover

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 02 Sep 2014 14:23

merlin wrote:I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint. We are going to pay a heavy price for all the delays. I wonder if the Abhay prototype can be taken as the base and all the companies allowed to take their stab in submitting proposals based on it and the best proposal wins for quicker procurement.

true abhay was a TD , but its just another BMP, though material tech of the body frame can be transfered to private players

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 02 Sep 2014 16:56

merlin wrote:I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint. We are going to pay a heavy price for all the delays. I wonder if the Abhay prototype can be taken as the base and all the companies allowed to take their stab in submitting proposals based on it and the best proposal wins for quicker procurement.



What has been screwed by saint? On contrary, we are reaping benefits of his thrust for indigenous.

If someone can explain without hysterics and theatrics, I will debate.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Rien » 02 Sep 2014 17:53

OK I am very confused by Rohit's article linked earlier. Either I am confused or the Defencenews reporter needs to buy a clue. My understanding of events is:

1.) There was a FICV program that was cancelled
2.) DRDO produced a prototype called Abhay
3.) Tata Motors took Abhay prototype, added on weapons from foreign vendors and an engine
4.) MoD needs to approve orders of the Tata Motors Kestrel to meet FICV requirement of amphibious armored vehicle

Does everybody else agree? That article talks about other countries, but it is Tata Motors and DRDO's Abhay prototype, incorporating foreign vendors weapons and engine.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby merlin » 02 Sep 2014 18:24

Abhay from DRDO is just a tech demonstrator and predates the initial FICV program.
As far as I'm aware, at least initially, Tata Motors (plus a few other Tata group companies) did not take the Abhay prototype. They wanted to come up with their own design. Initially. I'm not aware what happened later.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby d_berwal » 02 Sep 2014 18:28

Rien wrote:OK I am very confused by Rohit's article linked earlier. Either I am confused or the Defencenews reporter needs to buy a clue. My understanding of events is:

1.) There was a FICV program that was cancelled

Program is still on
https://mod.nic.in/writereaddata/Empanelment-FICV.pdf as of Apr 2014

2.) DRDO produced a prototype called Abhay


Abhay was only a TD program and never went to prototype stage

3.) Tata Motors took Abhay prototype, added on weapons from foreign vendors and an engine

WhAP/ Kestrel is as per specifications and design of DRDO/ VRDE using the learning/ Tech from Abhay program. All the foreign vendors are selected by DRDO and not TATA.

TATA is building the basic mobility platform as per DRDO design specs and integrated a turret and other technologies as per DRDO.

4.) MoD needs to approve orders of the Tata Motors Kestrel to meet FICV requirement of amphibious armored vehicle


WhAP might meet wheeled FICV requirements, but FICV and WhAP are separate as of now and WhAP does have a 100-200no backing by MoD to be in this advanced stage.

my@2.cents

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 02 Sep 2014 18:39

:)
Last edited by shaun on 02 Sep 2014 18:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 02 Sep 2014 18:40

Rien wrote:OK I am very confused by Rohit's article linked earlier. Either I am confused or the Defencenews reporter needs to buy a clue. My understanding of events is:

1.) There was a FICV program that was cancelled
2.) DRDO produced a prototype called Abhay
3.) Tata Motors took Abhay prototype, added on weapons from foreign vendors and an engine
4.) MoD needs to approve orders of the Tata Motors Kestrel to meet FICV requirement of amphibious armored vehicle

Does everybody else agree? That article talks about other countries, but it is Tata Motors and DRDO's Abhay prototype, incorporating foreign vendors weapons and engine.

you are confused because you dont read the posts properly .
1. FICV programme , not cancelled. Fresh Eoi will be issued.
2.drdo did produce abhay prototype but as TD.
3.abhay is tracked unlike kestrel
4. MOD will approve only the winner and it need not be kstrel

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 02 Sep 2014 18:54

d_berwal wrote:
WhAP might meet wheeled FICV requirements, but FICV and WhAP are separate as of now and WhAP does have a 100-200no backing by MoD to be in this advanced stage.

my@2.cents

last year there was a tender for 100
wheeled APC for specialized purpose.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2014 20:31

obviously is far far inferior to even the BMP3 and it is the BMP3-MKI that must be our next IFV!!!

http://www.military-today.com/apc/kestrel.htm

The Kestrel is fitted with Norwegian Kongsberg MCT-30-R remotely controlled turret, armed with American 30-mm Mk44 Bushmaster II cannon. This weapon is used on a number of modern armored vehicles, such as Bionix IFV, CV9030 IFV, Guarani APC, Pandur II APC and some other. It is possible to convert this cannon to a 40-mm caliber. Only barrel and few parts have to be changed. This cannon fires Armor-Piercing Incendiary (API), High-Explosive Incendiary (HEI) and Armor-Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot Tracer (APFSDS-T) rounds. This cannon has effective range of 3 000 m. There is also a secondary 7.62-mm machine gun. The Kongsberg turret allows the installation of Javelin anti-tank guided missiles along the cannon.
A prototype that was revealed in 2014 also had a remotely controlled weapon station with 12.7-mm machine gun and one more Javelin launcher. It was mounted on top of the turret roof. Production APCs can be fitted with various weapon stations and turrets, depending on customer requirements.
This new Indian armored personnel carrier has a crew of three and carried 9 fully-equipped troops. Infantrymen egress and dismount via rear power-operated ramp. Also there are roof-hatches for emergency exit. Troops are provided with firing ports and associated vision blocks to fire their individual weapons.
The Kestrel has high power-to-weight ratio for mountainous terrain. It is powered by a turbocharged diesel engine, developing 600 hp. Engine is located at the forward part of the hull. This armored personnel carrier is fully amphibious. On water it is propelled by two waterjets.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 02 Sep 2014 20:46

^^^
:shock: was it sarcasm !?

BMP3 was rejected .


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 02 Sep 2014 21:56

chackojoseph wrote:
merlin wrote:I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint. We are going to pay a heavy price for all the delays. I wonder if the Abhay prototype can be taken as the base and all the companies allowed to take their stab in submitting proposals based on it and the best proposal wins for quicker procurement.



What has been screwed by saint? On contrary, we are reaping benefits of his thrust for indigenous.

If someone can explain without hysterics and theatrics, I will debate.


:rotfl: Everyone got thrusted by the Saint, local and videshi - it seems you agree with Merlin.

And it took a new Govt to give the R&D folks the budget they wanted, buy batteries for subs, local items..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby vaibhav.n » 02 Sep 2014 22:33

The WhAP is an interim acquisition and primarily meant for UN ops. These are to be used by the INDBATT's composite Mechanised Coy. The IA has been facing some issues with deploying BMP's in confined built-up areas abroad. It also allows the IA to study Wheeled concepts more closely.

Conversely, The FICV is envisioned to be a Wheeled+Tracked IFV with maximal commonality built into it and act in multiple iterations.

Ranjani Brow

Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Ranjani Brow » 02 Sep 2014 23:03

merlin wrote:I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint. We are going to pay a heavy price for all the delays. I wonder if the Abhay prototype can be taken as the base and all the companies allowed to take their stab in submitting proposals based on it and the best proposal wins for quicker procurement.


Abhay was a TD. The technologies developed for Abhay will be provided to all 4 of the competitors in FICV program of Indian Army. Then two prototypes will be chosen and the winning one will be manufactured in 70:30 ratio by the winner and the runner-up.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby shaun » 02 Sep 2014 23:08

vaibhav.n wrote:The WhAP is an interim acquisition and primarily meant for UN ops. These are to be used by the INDBATT's composite Mechanised Coy. The IA has been facing some issues with deploying BMP's in confined built-up areas abroad. It also allows the IA to study Wheeled concepts more closely.

Conversely, The FICV is envisioned to be a Wheeled+Tracked IFV with maximal commonality built into it and act in multiple iterations.


a 100 odd Whap for UN deployment ! and wheeled concept is not new for IA.

actually the FICV is envisioned to be a tank killer among other things !

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Sep 2014 06:42

Karan M wrote:
merlin wrote:I wonder if there is any area not completed screwed up by the Saint. We are going to pay a heavy price for all the delays. I wonder if the Abhay prototype can be taken as the base and all the companies allowed to take their stab in submitting proposals based on it and the best proposal wins for quicker procurement.


chackojoseph wrote:
What has been screwed by saint? On contrary, we are reaping benefits of his thrust for indigenous.

If someone can explain without hysterics and theatrics, I will debate.


:rotfl: Everyone got thrusted by the Saint, local and videshi - it seems you agree with Merlin.

And it took a new Govt to give the R&D folks the budget they wanted, buy batteries for subs, local items..


st. Scamthony buying gold tea set helicopters for VIPs from Italy AugustaWestland, made sure this for DRDO:

http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/austerity-drive-holds-up-hiring-by-drdo-113100400670_1.html
"Of the total defence budget, 23 percent is allocated for production and research activities. We (DRDO) get 6.5 percent (Rs.10,000 crore) of it (23 percent). Our budget has been cut by one percent to 5.5 percent, which is about Rs.1,000 crore," he noted.

Research projects were also affected during the last fiscal due to the austerity drive.

As a result of attrition, DRDO losses about 75-80 scientists every year for professional and personal reasons.

Of the total 35,000 employees in the DRDO, 7,900 are scientists, 12,000 engineers and around 15,000 are for administration functions.


Don't forget the moment General (Retd.) Sh. V.K. Singh told him about tatra-14crore-tejinder, it was st. scamthony who took the drastic measure of hitting his forhead with his palm, and only informed the parliament after one year when the incident was out in the open.

When inflation and buying power of rupee was falling around peacenik CBM builder got personal budget power of DRDO chief also halved.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2014 08:07

Karan M wrote:And it took a new Govt to give the R&D folks the budget they wanted, buy batteries for subs, local items..


R&D budget for what? I haven't seen details. What is it going to be used for? Is it actually going to be released? Is it going to be returned? We don't know yet.

But definitely, 10 years, Antony, palam Raju and One more gent (I don't recollect name, he does China policy now) Have done great for indigenous.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Prem » 03 Sep 2014 08:28

chackojoseph wrote:
Karan M wrote:And it took a new Govt to give the R&D folks the budget they wanted, buy batteries for subs, local items..
But definitely, 10 years, Antony, palam Raju and One more gent (I don't recollect name, he does China policy now) Have done great for indigenous.


Has he moved back to MassaBhumiYet?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2014 08:34

How does that help?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby NRao » 03 Sep 2014 08:49

But definitely, 10 years, Antony, palam Raju and One more gent (I don't recollect name, he does China policy now) Have done great for indigenous.


How so? Details please.

Thx.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2014 09:08

NRao wrote:

How so? Details please.

Thx.


They pushed Arjun Tank project, LCA project, Dhruv, OFB gun project, Arihant project, INSAS etc to the hilt. If you see the latest warships, Most major weapons have been made in India with ToT etc.

In imports, FMS, asking IAF for comprehensive evaluation of MMRCA, etc have been a major success. Hawks made in india.

In policy DPP 13 has been arrived. ALG's were opened. Air field infrastructure were upgraded. New Mountain war fighting out fit was okayed etc.

There were flip sides too like banning of arms companies. But the Army light helio purchase had genuine reasons to be redone. Civil Military leadership conflict was highest.

I would like to know their wrongs that could be discussed. But, let me know the correct thread.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby d_berwal » 03 Sep 2014 13:16

Shaun wrote:
d_berwal wrote:
WhAP might meet wheeled FICV requirements, but FICV and WhAP are separate as of now and WhAP does have a 100-200no backing by MoD to be in this advanced stage.

my@2.cents

last year there was a tender for 100
wheeled APC for specialized purpose.


WhAP is currently in TD phase with 3/2 TD manufactured

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Sep 2014 17:19

chackojoseph wrote:
They pushed Arjun Tank project
How many orders of Arjun tanks were actually placed due to this mythical push? 1000 OR 1600? Strange the all powerful shameless scamthony who never resigned after so many scams accidents, this bloodthirsty guy ate up two service chiefs before their actual retirement time. V.K. Singh's Birth Certificate and Army Hospital register DOB was ignored by dishonest scamthony guy and made to retire before his time. Then he got Admiral Joshi also to retire while enjoying the perks of being minister himself, selling his wife's paintings to PSUs, bah!

LCA project, Dhruv, OFB gun project, Arihant project, INSAS etc to the hilt. If you see the latest warships, Most major weapons have been made in India with ToT etc. Seriously? INSAS was due to his support? Didn't he and general BS guy forced the govt. to buy italian guns?

Wah Arihant credit has to go to scamthony, why? At the most that he didn't create more hurdles in path of Arihant and maybe for that maybe nation has to begrateful, while I didn't know that Dhruv and Tejas were started by Scamthony OR what extra support he provided that wasn't there beforehand?


In imports, FMS, asking IAF for comprehensive evaluation of MMRCA, etc have been a major success. Hawks made in india. Hawks were always going to be made in Bharat there isn't anything special scamthony did.

There were flip sides too like banning of arms companies. But the Army light helio purchase had genuine reasons to be redone. Civil Military leadership conflict was highest. [color=#FF0000]Scamthony was part of gang that pushed and forced iaf chief tyagi to order augusta westland helicopters and if the scam had not been exposed overseas, this too would've been hushed by scamthony. This very guy didn't listen to General V.K. Singh about shortage of ammo and he was forced to write to PM directly. Ugliest creature to have happened to Bharatiya defence since krishna menon.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2014 17:46

I will stick to Arjun numbers : There were enough times when it was been pushed to back burner. Here Antony and Pallam Raju pushed it hard. I have written of medium fording , AUCRT etc. The project was as good as dead without them.

I have no idea what you are talking about Italian gun. Who forced whom?

Dhruv got support and orders in his time. Arihant, how can you claim what you claim? How do you have the information?

Let me know the history of Hawks and how they were going to be "automatically" made in India.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Sep 2014 18:26

chackojoseph wrote:I will stick to Arjun numbers : There were enough times when it was been pushed to back burner. Here Antony and Pallam Raju pushed it hard. I have written of medium fording , AUCRT etc. The project was as good as dead without them.


Only thing they pushed hard were italian augustawestland vvip helicopters or pushing out hard honest and patriots like V.K. Singh and D.K. Joshi.

I have no idea what you are talking about Italian gun. Who forced whom?


Berreta gun pushed by both scamthony and general BS!

Dhruv got support and orders in his time. Arihant, how can you claim what you claim? How do you have the information?

What information? You wrongly give credit to scamthony for project like Arihant which was started much before him by other govts. And what a joke it is to give him credit for Dhruv. The credit could have been if scamthony had said that my govt will buy only Dhruv as VVIP helicopter and travel in made in Bharat product, instead of going for his madam's made in italy.

Shameful that we have media people who can so shamelessly gloss over scamthony's not doing anything regarding lack of ammo and told General VK Singh to go to PM for it. Where was scamthony and raju's push for such an urgent matter?

What crime did Admiral Joshi did that shameless anti-national scamthony forced him to resign.

And that mrs. elizabeth wife of scamthony selling her paintings for to PSUs :

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bankrupt-air-india-buys-canvases-a-k-antony-wife-elizabeth/1/162505.html

Antony's Kitchen Secret

| Bankrupt Air India buys canvases painted by AK Antony's wife |

She hasn't had an exhibition yet, but her paintings have already been picked up. Bankrupt Air India bought two landscapes for Thiruvananthapuram International Airport's Terminal 3, while Lakshmi Nair, daughter-in-law of the Leela Hotels' Captain Krishnan Nair, took home two flower-themed canvases for their new Chanakyapuri property. Welcome the capital's new celebrity painter: Elizabeth Antony, wife of Defence Minister A.K. Antony. She officially debuts with a show at India Habitat Centre on December 2, to support her ngo for cancer patients.

When Elizabeth, 60, retired from her bank job after 35 years this October, she had painted over two dozen landscapes. Most of them were done during the last two years using photographs sent by friends.

Though Antony was supportive of his wife's art, cost was a concern. "Painting is an expensive hobby, each tube of acrylic costs over Rs.600," says Elizabeth. The couple leads a middle-class life in the heart of Delhi's power zone. Antony, known to be a scrupulously honest politician, declared assets worth Rs.33.54 lakh this year, the least in the UPA Cabinet.

Elizabeth says she has gone out of her way to keep the show apolitical. Politicians haven't been invited, not even her husband. "I want it to focus only on cancer aid," she says. Cagey about revealing how much the paintings were sold for, she says two of her friends are valuing her work ahead of the three-day exhibition.

The artist turned to painting to raise funds for her four-year-old ngo, Navoothan Charitable Foundation, which empowers women in cancer-affected families by equipping them with vocational skills. Being self-employed, they can avail of government aid schemes, she says. Over 20 women have benefited so far. The organisation operates out of Antony's Delhi home and has a branch in Thiruvananthapuram.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bank ... 62505.html

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Sep 2014 18:31

I have not found anything worth replying.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Sep 2014 18:33

chackojoseph wrote:I have not found anything worth replying.


But before you did?
Last edited by Raja Bose on 04 Sep 2014 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: User banned for a month for repeated use of foul language.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby jamwal » 03 Sep 2014 20:59

Don't bother trying to get meaningful replies from BJP baiters who are suffering from chronic khujlee syndrome ever since Mofi came to power. These claims about Saint antony being good are nothing but preemptive attempts to prove that Modi sarkar is full of losers compared to the rest.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby RoyG » 03 Sep 2014 21:11

Those who are defending Saint Antony need to take a hard look at who appointed him. Why the hell would Sonia Gandhi appoint someone clean? Please people don't fall for this BS.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Indranil » 03 Sep 2014 22:52

Chackoji did not write anything political. Albeit it may be subjective. If you do want to answer, please do so as regards to his points.

If not, keep the political stuff out of here. Otherwise face the consequences.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby jamwal » 03 Sep 2014 23:05

If there are points to answer, I will if I can. As of now, there is just hot air and rhetoric biased by political affiliation instead of something that can be discussed. Those of us who know each other on oter platforms know where it's coming from. Strange fact is that he professes ignorance about Beretta when the same are being used by BSF in J&K, Delhi among other places . Adding to that the media coverage it got during it's procurement and numbers of pictures it was in during the last few weeks due to hot border smacks plainly of ignorance or just intellectual dishonesty. A guy running news house should know better.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Sep 2014 23:34

indranilroy wrote:Chackoji did not write anything political. Albeit it may be subjective. If you do want to answer, please do so as regards to his points.

If not, keep the political stuff out of here. Otherwise face the consequences.


Not political? Giving him credit for Arihant is factual reporting? If not political its devotional!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Indranil » 04 Sep 2014 01:13

jamwal wrote: As of now, there is just hot air and rhetoric biased by political affiliation instead of something that can be discussed.


Dhananjay wrote:If not political its devotional!


The same applies to your statements. So cut out this moral high ground cr@p. Let's discuss armoured vehicles on this thread, shall we?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby jamwal » 04 Sep 2014 01:35

Of course.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby malushahi » 04 Sep 2014 05:09

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 04 Sep 2014 05:40, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please heed the request to keep discussion on track.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Indranil » 04 Sep 2014 08:24

Certainly, I am not above the law. Feel free to report my behaviour. Acts of moderation can also be moderated by other moderators.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 04 Sep 2014 09:34

Antony did good in the areas I mentioned. Without him Arjun Tank project was as good as dead. Palam Raju did a lot of good for this project, along with others.

If people decide to personally attack, it will not change facts.

I am not politically affiliated. I have disdain for all political parties equally. A certain new party has me in hopes, but I am not affiliated there too.

So, the logic of arguments given above is wrong.

Give devil his due. Antony did do many good.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 04 Sep 2014 09:46

Also, this is my original point

What has been screwed by saint? On contrary, we are reaping benefits of his thrust for indigenous.


I never said that I am open to discussions on paintings, and other things.


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