MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

deejay
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 22 Jan 2016 07:01

Tanks are vulnerable because they are visible, big and comparatively slow moving. Unless a force-field is guarding the tank, something will get through and beat the tanks defence.

The war in Syria in most parts are not being fought by professional armies. In case of Indo - Pak conflict, we will not face just rag tag jihadists but also better trained, equipped and better supplied Paki army.

Tankmen around the world will have noted the vulnerabilities of tanks in urban / semi urban warfare all over again - after having seen this in WW2 and thereafter. Skills in tag teaming, tandem shooting, shoot and scoot tactics, camouflage, counter strike, dummy targets are just as important as armour.

Some of the Syrian videos are a reality check on "How dumb was that" and others are staged managed. Infact, one tank burst video is so shoddy that they put on show not just the tank blowing but the entire street catching fire. There are however, a few videos where the rag tag army have really blown a tank.

Interesting to note is how easily even the rebels, ISIS and everyone around have kept those old T55s still working though in fairly run down condition. All the groups, except perhaps Iraqi Army are still using T55s all around.

Also, please do not judge a weapon system based on Saudi Army professional skills.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jamwal » 22 Jan 2016 09:21

The Iraqi and Saudi M1A tanks destroyed recemtly didn't have the depleted Uranium armour. US has not exported fully armoured tanks to anyone Afaik.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Aditya G » 22 Jan 2016 11:26

MBTs are in their element in maneuver operations. A formation of tanks in a desert is a swift & powerful - it can be stopped only by other tanks. ATGM jeeps and APCs can only cause attrition. Only few tank like Merkava are designed for urban combat.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2016 23:58

The Week mag has a cover feature on "100 years of the tank".Good issue a collector's item for enthuse.Covers the hist from the first to tanks today,great tank battles etc. It should be available on its website too.

Posted some time ago,both US and Russia/Soviets have two types of export MBTs.
DJ,yes,MBTs on any vintage are worth something on the battlefield. The famous saying about the "one-eyed man king in the country of the blind". An MBT against an enemy which possesses none on the spot in an encounter on the battlefield should have the advantage. It is also why we are upgrading out T-72s as we have over 1500 of them,comprising the bulk of our armour which simply cannot be replaced both in terms of money available and MBTs readily available. The upgrades being done have enhanced their capability considerably,almost upto T-90 std.,which itself is undergoing incremental upgrades and so is Arjun with the Mk-2.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Hobbes » 29 Jan 2016 08:59

Saurav Jha reports that Pakistan is showing interest in the Turkish Altay.

According to the Turks, 'ally' Pakistan is showing interest in the Altay.
https://t.co/jywqOI9r5I

If they do get it, will the Army finally drop their asinine championing of 50 ton tin cans? Or will they start asking for the Armata?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Hobbes » 29 Jan 2016 09:02

Philip wrote:The Week mag has a cover feature on "100 years of the tank".Good issue a collector's item for enthuse.Covers the hist from the first to tanks today,great tank battles etc. It should be available on its website too.

Posted some time ago,both US and Russia/Soviets have two types of export MBTs.
DJ,yes,MBTs on any vintage are worth something on the battlefield. The famous saying about the "one-eyed man king in the country of the blind". An MBT against an enemy which possesses none on the spot in an encounter on the battlefield should have the advantage. It is also why we are upgrading out T-72s as we have over 1500 of them,comprising the bulk of our armour which simply cannot be replaced both in terms of money available and MBTs readily available. The upgrades being done have enhanced their capability considerably,almost upto T-90 std.,which itself is undergoing incremental upgrades and so is Arjun with the Mk-2.

Not that the T-90 is any great standard, or even worthwhile by today's standards... The only good thing I see about the T-90 is embodied in the quoted opening sentence -
DJ,yes,MBTs on any vintage are worth something on the battlefield.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 29 Mar 2016 20:21

Cross post - https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6844&sid=009186baf3920a7e3e367aab3a99986c&start=1800#p1998656

Notwithstanding its first and feisty live demonstration during the opening ceremony of the 9th DefExpo being held in Goa, the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) declared its next generation Arjun MkII tank, has missed the target. There remains at least six more months of work on it before the army can initiate its user trials.

Speaking to this correspondent, Dr S Christopher, Director General, DRDO said, "Weight is slightly on the higher side. We presumed, when informed about the additional requirement on MkI that weight will also be allowed additionally. Unfortunately, we missed the point." Elaborating further, he added, "Army says there are bridges where MkII might find it difficult (to move). This is the reason why we have developed the other bridge and made our tank go over it again and again when displayed at DefExpo. We are trying to tell the army that even if we may not be able to use it as it is everywhere, there definitely can be places where it can be used."

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar who spoke about pushing the 'Make In India' program 'very hard' in his ministry, has asked the tank maker to reduce its weight by 1-1.5 ton. The DRDO believes in the coming six months, it will be in a position to do so.


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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 30 Mar 2016 03:02

Abhisham wrote:With my limited interaction with the 43 Armored Regiment, Arjun is a great tank and far surpasses any tank in the Indian inventory including T-90 (nothing we didn't know!) and all officers and soldiers vouch for the tank. With limited induction in the army a lot of internal opinions are based on news articles. The Arjun tank is a victim of organizational corruption, inertia and group think mentality. I have personally no hope that Arjun will see any major service in the IA.


Another new article confirms your views. Now the IA wants weight reduced even though they asked for stuff that would add weight :roll: Delay tactics one after the other for a mere 118 units order! The IA could easily accommodate 500 Arjuns in its 3500+ MBT force (more than half of them obsolete or nearing obsolescence) ... if it supported the program.

Exclusive: On 'overweight', next-gen Arjun tanks, DRDO chief says they 'missed the point'
March 29, 2016

Notwithstanding its first and feisty live demonstration during the opening ceremony of the 9th DefExpo being held in Goa, the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) declared its next generation Arjun MkII tank, has missed the target. There remains at least six more months of work on it before the army can initiate its user trials.

Speaking to this correspondent, Dr S Christopher, Director General, DRDO said, "Weight is slightly on the higher side. We presumed, when informed about the additional requirement on MkI that weight will also be allowed additionally. Unfortunately, we missed the point." Elaborating further, he added, "Army says there are bridges where MkII might find it difficult (to move). This is the reason why we have developed the other bridge and made our tank go over it again and again when displayed at DefExpo. We are trying to tell the army that even if we may not be able to use it as it is everywhere, there definitely can be places where it can be used."

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar who spoke about pushing the 'Make In India' program 'very hard' in his ministry, has asked the tank maker to reduce its weight by 1-1.5 ton. The DRDO believes in the coming six months, it will be in a position to do so.

Dr Christopher listed enhanced protection and better versatility as among the improvements in the MkII over its earlier avatar, 124 of which stand inducted in the army. "Development is about achieving targets and not really looking for maintenance related facilities and we are working on the deliverables," he said.

The history of indigenous tank building has been an acrimonious affair with the army and DRDO having bitter differences over the road ahead. While the army relies largely on the Russian-made T72 and T90 tanks, the DRDO believes it isn't being a fair opportunity to develop its product. After a protracted struggle, 124 MkI Arjun tanks were commissioned into the army.


Added later (x-posting):

All the new acquisition of bridging equipment made by DRDO is rated as MLC-70. There is also Arjun BLT too with 26m span MLC-70 class bridge. Along with that all the new major bridges on civilian side are also classed at that rating. So, reducing Arjun MBT-2 by one or two tons is really a delaying tactic by the IA, IMO.
Last edited by srai on 30 Mar 2016 03:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 30 Mar 2016 03:17

The IA is leading DRDO (and the entire country) on a wild goose chase.There just is NO version of the Arjun that the IA is going to buy. They don't want the blame for the years or blood, sweat and huge amount of money wasted to fall on them. So they keep coming up with new requirements as soon as the previous ones are met. So the onus remains on DRDO to deliver.

It is just shameful for the IA to behave like this. Any private manufacturer would have asked the IA to take a hike long ago unless they actually ordered a decent number of tanks, as they were. The DRDO unfortunately doesn't have that choice.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 30 Mar 2016 03:25

Amazed and confused.

There is no one higher up than the Indian Army?

Not saying it should be shoved down their throats, which may be a n option to many, but how is it that the IA is stonewalling for so long without any guilt or repercussions?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 30 Mar 2016 03:33

NRao wrote:Amazed and confused.

There is no one higher up than the Indian Army?

Not saying it should be shoved down their throats, which may be a n option to many, but how is it that the IA is stonewalling for so long without any guilt or repercussions?

What the MoD has to do is make it clear that tanks will henceforth, no longer be imported. If the IA doesn't like the Arjun, very well. Cancel the program. The IA can create a new GSQR and get the DRDO to develop a new tank from scratch. But they will not get any tanks from abroad in the meantime. Under any circumstances.

But of course, governments and ministers are fleeting. What one DefMin might order, another might overturn in the future. And the IA knows this. So the farce will go on.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 30 Mar 2016 04:16

Good, while the iron is hot , might as well pitch for the F-18 for the IAF and the IN. Oh, why not?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 30 Mar 2016 07:30

x-posting:

andy B wrote:

Cross posting footage of MKI and MKII Arjuns, Kestrel as well others from Def expo 2016


Karan M wrote:Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 30 Mar 2016 08:34

Comparing Turkey's stats with India's stats makes me feel like we are indeed 'turkey's. :rotfl:

Turkey Vs. India
Area - India is 4x as BIG
• Total 814,578 km2 (37th) vs. 3,287,263[14] km2 (7th)
Population - India is 15x as BIG
• 2015 census 78,741,053 [1] (18th) vs. 1,276,267,000[15] (2nd)
GDP (PPP) 2014 estimate - India is 4x as BIG
• Total $1.576 trillion[2] (17th) vs. $8.027 trillion[17] (3rd)
GDP (nominal) 2014 estimate - India is 3x as BIG
• Total $722 billion[2] (18th) vs. $2.182 trillion[17] (7th)

Changing the head is not enough, need to get rid of muscle memory now...

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby DexterM » 30 Mar 2016 09:18

nachiket wrote:
NRao wrote:Amazed and confused.

There is no one higher up than the Indian Army?

Not saying it should be shoved down their throats, which may be a n option to many, but how is it that the IA is stonewalling for so long without any guilt or repercussions?

What the MoD has to do is make it clear that tanks will henceforth, no longer be imported. If the IA doesn't like the Arjun, very well. Cancel the program. The IA can create a new GSQR and get the DRDO to develop a new tank from scratch. But they will not get any tanks from abroad in the meantime. Under any circumstances.

But of course, governments and ministers are fleeting. What one DefMin might order, another might overturn in the future. And the IA knows this. So the farce will go on.

DGMF has outlasted many a Govt, and understands how comparative tests can be rescheduled and findings presented that push the onboarding of any system. Mr Parrikar would have failed his own high standards if he failed to fix this basic issue with the procurement of MBTs. If a flawed technical argument cannot be refuted to a well-versed man such as the RM, then obviously the Arjun is on a very slippery slope. Leaves one with little hope of this tank receiving any larger orders.

Basically, the Game of India reads Lobbies 100 - Common Man 0.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2016 17:26

Meantime rus is testing a light unmanned tank with atgms
https://youtu.be/LmrArtSWzFA

The atgm launch is a damp squib thougb

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby member_22539 » 30 Mar 2016 17:29

^Damb squib or not, it won't stop someone from swooning over it sooner or later.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 08 Apr 2016 16:11

x-posting

Arjun MBT Mk.2 and WhAP Kestrel

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby rohitvats » 08 Apr 2016 16:32

Singha wrote:Meantime rus is testing a light unmanned tank with atgms
https://youtu.be/LmrArtSWzFA

The atgm launch is a damp squib thougb


That damp squib was actually the ATGM case falling forward and not the missile. Though, I doubt it was meant to fall forward of the tank.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 12 Apr 2016 17:35

Philip wrote:The Week mag has a cover feature on "100 years of the tank".Good issue a collector's item for enthuse.Covers the hist from the first to tanks today,great tank battles etc. It should be available on its website too.

Posted some time ago,both US and Russia/Soviets have two types of export MBTs.
DJ,yes,MBTs on any vintage are worth something on the battlefield. The famous saying about the "one-eyed man king in the country of the blind". An MBT against an enemy which possesses none on the spot in an encounter on the battlefield should have the advantage. It is also why we are upgrading out T-72s as we have over 1500 of them,comprising the bulk of our armour which simply cannot be replaced both in terms of money available and MBTs readily available. The upgrades being done have enhanced their capability considerably,almost upto T-90 std.,which itself is undergoing incremental upgrades and so is Arjun with the Mk-2.


If we are upgrading our T 72 "almost upto T 90 standard" why did we buy the T 90 ?????

Means that there is little difference between T 72 and T 90 ?

This is how my tiny brains sees the situation !!!!
Last edited by Kersi D on 13 Apr 2016 09:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 12 Apr 2016 17:47

^^^

T-90 was originally called T-72BU (Usowershenstwowanny(Updated)).

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 12 Apr 2016 17:55

srai wrote:^^^

T-90 was originally called T-72BU (Usowershenstwowanny(Updated)).


I think the real name was T 72 BSTSTI, Bull Shit To Sell to India

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2016 01:51

^^^

Correct the T-90 was the upgrade of the T-72 and not evolution.


The Russians have always been accepting two lines of tanks into their armoured corps.
A qualitative tank - T-80, T-64 etc
A quantitative tank - T72, T55 etc

They kept the two lines of design and manufacturing open to cross pollinate the other.

This was fantastic however it something they could no longer afford going forward. With a declining population and a rusting economy they could not afford to lose 10 million of their finest in a war and proclaim as a great victory for the rodina. Therefore a pivot was going to happen towards the qualitative side.

Had our folks been watching the entire Russian Armoured Development tree, they would have seen some serious lack of evolution from the T-72 and T-80 induction dates for each of the respective line of tanks.

What was happening was a merger of the two lines of thoughts, designs and manufacturing. Honestly it would not have been hard to investigate.
The other factor that would have given this away were the suspected designs being done for the South Koreans and other customers.

Meanwhile the T-72 were seriously out of game and needed a replacement or an injection of ideas from a qualitative tank like the theoretical successor of T-80. However they had been denied funding and nothing was on the boil.

Therefore the T-72 upgrade was created, would would redress the shortcomings of the 72 in all areas.
Now this is where I speculate, the Russki marketing creativity kicked in and they said ... hey lets market this as an evolution and not as an upgrade.

And guess which customer turned up without invitation to buy this (upgrade as a new tank) without any real planning or clear thinking.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2016 01:52

Almost mandatory reading for Arjun haters and Arjun lovers alike.
http://www.forceindia.net/PressureontheGroundAugust2012.aspx

Please read this and refresh on this.

Last not least, go and influence one of your friends (hopefully a defence personal).
And go Swadesi !!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 13 Apr 2016 02:11

For the Army, ordering more tanks would result in it having to devote more resources — something it seems loath to do.

Despite all that, the Arjun outgunning the T-90 and T-72 in comparative trials, is akin to the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas’, defeating the F-16 in a dogfight! The units that took part in the competition put up their best tanks and crew. The Arjun managed to fare very well. Army sources have freely admitted to FORCE, that there is a mind block with regard to the Arjun, by those who have operated the T series tanks. But they also admit that the Arjun is appreciably more modern in comparison to the T-72 & T-90, in many respects. For example, the Arjun can fire almost twice the number of rounds the T series tanks can, from its main gun.

Jai Ho!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2016 02:48

The stink gets worse!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2016 06:06

It seems that our friends across the border have trialled the T-84 in September.
Those gas Turbines must be a pain in the butt for their EME
;-)


T-84 OPLOT-M is a medium evolution of the T-80.

T-84 was born out frustration when Russia started blocking sales of T-80 to Pakistan by Ukraine.

I believe the gas turbine is gone and replaced with a opposing piston engine. (Another way to say V)
A new welded turret with separate crew and ammunition compartments with blowout panels on the ammunition compartment, a new bustle-mounted autoloader.
Believe its one of the fastest MBT in the field right now.

https://twitter.com/Tom_Antonov/status/642361567120617473

Spread the news to the Babus of MOD. The T-90 killer is being trialled by the Pakistanis.
;-)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2016 06:21

Call the Arjun as T-100 and hire Ivan as a sales person.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2016 07:51

Vivek K wrote:Call the Arjun as T-100 and hire Ivan as a sales person.


lol
no wait no lol
that might work

Sigh ... have we really come to this ?

Will the IA truly go for the Leo2 if the Germans did turn up with the Leo2.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2016 08:00

Khalsa do you want me to answer that question?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2016 12:28

No all good. :D
Thanks Vivek ... yeah it was a sigh and a deep breath moment you know.

All right back to doing what we can do. Influence one by one and change the tide.

How about we start bouncing a number. A %age number.
We have got to start at the top. If the idea of offset and %age desi component inside an LCA and Inside a Arjun and inside a INS Vikrant can be accepted and driven why not this.
Why not put Arjun @ 17 % Minimum and 25% Capped and to cap it is important so IA effectively knows that the expectations won't run wild and will stop at 25 %.

At this moment this is roughly what our armoured corps will look like once all T-90 series are here whether via HVF or CKD.

Current Figures
Arjun = 248
T-90 = 1250
T-72 = 2414
Total = 3912 (actual figure is lower)
Arjun % age of Armoured Corps = 6.33 %

Bharat Rakshak Proposes that the future look like this.

Future Option ALPHA
Arjun = 248 + 414 = 662
T-90 = 1250 + 1000 = 2250 (Massive increase in numbers)
T-72 = 2414 - 1414 = 1000 (Medium size Run of the mill upgrade)
Total = 3912
Arjun % age of Armoured Corps = 16.9 %
In this scenario above, By linking the T-90 increase immediately expedite the Arjun manufacturing. + The IA gets a medium quality T-72 upgrade for the 1000 remaining MBTs.

Future Option BRAVO
Arjun = 248 + 414 = 862
T-90 = 1250 + 550 = 2000 (Large size increase in numbers)
T-72 = 2414 - 914 = 1050 (High Quality upgrade)
Total = 3912
Arjun % age of Armoured Corps = 22 %

In this scenario above, Again its a win win for the IA.
They get a qualitative upgrade of the Ajeyas and a large increase of T-90 series.

Now before you folks jump on me about increasing the T-90 numbers. Think carefully before you do because I am aiming for Arjun tipping point which is apparently around 500.
For it be effective Industrially and to be effective Militarily it needs to be around 400+.
Therefore I have linked it to the T-90.

The T-90 series is destined to become our mainstay. We have it being produced locally and we will bend over backwards to the Russians to get the last screw and bolt.
And I am sure T-72s are not being manufactured so once an entire regiment's T-72 live their life of 30 years... who or what is replacing that.
Yes T-90.

hence don't fight the increase in the T-90.

Fight for two things.

1. Massive Increase of Arjun numbers
2. Serious Reduction of the T-72 numbers to a mangeable size where they augment any armoured warfare yet to be played in the Indian Subcontinent.
The T-72 upgrade should also be reasonably outsourced as we don't want our best minds and capabilities to be sidetracked by trying to indigenise the upgrade of a dying tank and a dead tank line.

So I have made two massive assumptions over here.
Let me submit these. Love for someone to verify if these are true or not.
1. No more T-72 are being manufactured in India and will be manufactured in India.
2. T-90s will be manufactured as T-72s and T-90s reach end of life.

How about we ask the reporters that frequent this place to write an article that effectively submits a proposal to the government via an open letter to Republic of India (people + govt included).

Lets call this Bharat Rakshak Armoured Strategic Proposal 2017-2040

All right ... hit me
;-)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby adityadange » 13 Apr 2016 17:34

@Khalsa
Minor (typo?) mistake here:
Future Option BRAVO
Arjun = 248 + 414 = 862

Consider getting admission in first standard?? :lol: :mrgreen: :P

Added later:
P.S. Khalsa saheb, No offence for above sentence please. Added just for humor.
Last edited by adityadange on 13 Apr 2016 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2016 17:55

^^ Aditya, that is a minor typo in a long, thought out post. Please overlook.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby adityadange » 13 Apr 2016 18:02

Vivek, totally agree. I didnt meant to offend him. Just tried to make some humor.

One question: Why do we have to upgrade t-72 then? whatever money we will spend on it why cant we use it for arjun orders? we can sell those t-72 to say afganistan or some other country at half price? let us have those 2000 t-90s. that will also reduce some logistic burden as army will need to maintain only 2 types. (although i am also aware than 72s and 90s have commonalities so ideally speaking arjun is the one which stands out of line.)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2016 18:40

Khalsa, the problem is of a) lack of after sales support leading to low availability b) Developing local industry to give jobs to Indians c) obsolescence and the cost of upgrades and d) most importantly - giving an inferior weapon (T-90/72) to troops leading to higher than necessary fatalities during war.

I am sorry but your posts indicating a T-90 fleet of 2000+ tanks shows what is wrong with India. When a better local alternative is available, IA has done its best to kill it (torsion bar/ gearbox etc.) Some here on BRF would like IA to continue buying Russian weapons because of their past "assistance" to India (for which we killed our local industries in providing billions of dollars to Russians thanks to their made up dollar-rouble-rupee conversions).

You cannot appease someone into being your friend. If the Russians would like to give away free fighters and tanks to the Pakis, they should be free to do so. Of course they should be aware that India would have choices - a) domestic production (ships, aircraft, subs, missile, ....) or b) imports from other vendors not controlled by Russia.

And a buyer seller relationship is not friendship. Typically, the seller is the weaker party of the two. In Russia's case there were/are inducements of state-of-the-art technical know how but at exorbitant prices and extremely poor after sales service that make up for any debts of gratitude. Imagine buying a Maruti and then at the first oil change having to go home in a cab because the oil was not yet in stock.

Friendship is on equal terms and with similar interests or world view. At this point, Russia is hedging against the West and hiding its own economic weakness by propping up the Chinese (a mistake in the long term that will come back to haunt them) at the expense of its relation with India. It is also jeopardizing its relationship with India by selling hardware to Pak (RD-93, MI-17). And though China and India do not share the same world view, but because of Russia they share similar hardware (Sukhois, Missiles etc.). There will never be a Russia-China-India axis therefore India will need to abandon Russia and take the loss of throwing away tons of useless Russian junk (T-72s, Mig-21, Mig-27...) and paying a King's ransom for keeping some of their better stuff (Sukhois, Akula, only T-90s) operational.

If India wants to create a regional sphere of influence then it will need to show balls. It will need to develop its own military hardware that is sanction proof which it could sell to countries in its sphere of influence. India will not need to develop weapons merely for "entering an exclusive club of nations" but to play hardball. A short brief exchange with Pakis where they are severely bashed using new Vikrant, LCAs/NLCAs, LCH and Rudra would help to prove and sell these weapons. Just buying hangar queens and rust buckets from Russia will not help India win any war.

NaMo started off strong but has been bogged down by attacks from anti-nationals like Rahul Gandhi, Kejriwal, and the chaotic Indian political system. The Rafale is a poor decision. Instead he probably needs to take Tata/Hinduja with him to DRDO and work out a strategy for higher volume production of LCAs, LCHs, Rudras etc.

Sorry for the rant. I think that buying even one more T-90 is a waste of money and goes against Indian Sovereign foreign policy. India and Russia will not be close in the future. Russia will be dominated by China in the long run and will hand over its tech base to them. Indians need to learn to cut their losses and to think about India for a change!

johneeG
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby johneeG » 13 Apr 2016 18:49

Vivek saar,
great post. :)

tsarkar
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 13 Apr 2016 23:14

Khalsa wrote:Current Figures
Arjun = 248
T-90 = 1250
T-72 = 2414
Total = 3912


My understanding on the numbers
Arjun Mk1 = 124
Arjun Mk2 = 118
T-90 = 310 CKD + 347 CKD + 354 CKD for Mountain Strike Corps + 1000 license manufacture (of which 330 & 235 ordered) = 2011
T-72 = 2414
Total = 4671
Since India needs 4000 odd tanks, there is a need for 2000 Arjuns to replace the T-72

member_29190
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby member_29190 » 14 Apr 2016 00:14

tsarkar wrote:Since India needs 4000 odd tanks, there is a need for 2000 Arjuns to replace the T-72



It is a given that there will be a Indian tank in mass production for replacing ones which are not T-90. GOI will not allow another foriegn tank in. This is where I earlier mentioned in another post that we need to make it easier for IA to transition in terms of training, logistics, cost etc . There needs to be a drive toward making lot of things common across T-72/T-90/Arjun/FMBT. 4k is a huge fleet to make & maintain.

IA should not be given an oppurtunity to put forth the excuse of "all of armour corps use 125 mm smothbore..... we can't use 120mm.. 5mm less..."

It is also imperative of GOI to have some common sense. There is nothing stopping GOI from ordering a production run of 1K Arjuns 1/2. If IA doesn't take, so what... GOI can put them in "DRDO war reserve" like the huge US Army Tank graveyard.It reduces cost, parts are available in plenty and dont have to pary to God that OFB union does not strike.

When IA comes asking for T-72 to replaced because Pak bought deathstar... GOI babus just have to lift a finger and point to the war reserve..

Lilo
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Lilo » 14 Apr 2016 02:58

Sorry for the rant. I think that buying even one more T-90 is a waste of money and goes against Indian Sovereign foreign policy. India and Russia will not be close in the future. Russia will be dominated by China in the long run and will hand over its tech base to them. Indians need to learn to cut their losses and to think about India for a change!


Commonsense (Mandala to hype it) says that Russia and China can never be completely at ease with each other save the presence of a common threat(massa).Talking about Russia getting dominated by China is actually funny.
No one here is offering anyone their techbase.Sovereign also has the strategic imperative to uphold its credibility.
Dishonoring agreements without evidence of Russian hand in sabotage of arjun is counterproductive in every way.
Arjun will anyway achieve majority composition of our tank force maybe by next decade.In the meantime make sure to get the promised metallurgy of gun (and armour too if possible) from Russians through the t90 deal.

Khalsa
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 14 Apr 2016 04:53

Aditya no offence taken.
All good .. it was late night and I did not have excel
I was doing it in the head and was more focused on the first steps and various options.

:D


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