MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Karan M
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 30 Dec 2018 14:11

suryag wrote:This is a pleasant surprise, where did this MK-1A come from(no mention in tech focus either), was never in the news first time i have heard this


Mk1A is the original Mk2. New MK2 is a significant redesign for weight reduction.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby niran » 07 Jan 2019 03:40

disha wrote:
The T-14 armata is an entirely evolved concept. It is an automated cannon with minimal crew and extreme protection of crew. The cannon is a huge 125 mm and completely remotely controlled machine guns. Its main 'weapon' is "Afghanit" which protects it from incoming projectiles actively.

In effect a very modern 'medium' or even 'light' tank with <50 tonnes can be both mobile and effective and at the same time can be air transported as needed.

.

all current and future active Tank defense like on Armata need time to recharge after one use the best current one is on US army APC (forgot the name) is 48 seconds, during this window a simple rocket launcher will penetrate Armata thin armour as a buĺlet a sheet of paper.

le clerc, and german mbt started out with same concept of light weight fast nimble packing a pumch tanks germans found to their surprise PTA (prototype A) would be knocked out with mortar shell exploding in vicinity leclrec was penetrated and killed with HMGs thus heavier tanks came into being.

light tanks are for scouting mediums are for flanking Heavies are for pushing in the middle or to get a breach,
britshits gave up their medium tank lime due to financial crunch. Mercans has those APCs on tje flanks of abhrams these carry anti tank or anti air squad. so a heavy has apcs and anti tank squad with mobile antitank missiles.
IA can very well have a 60ton heavy with meduims on the flank.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 07 Jan 2019 04:28

Niran bhai long time good to have you back

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 07 Jan 2019 10:07

disha wrote:
The T-14 armata is an entirely evolved concept. It is an automated cannon with minimal crew and extreme protection of crew. The cannon is a huge 125 mm and completely remotely controlled machine guns. Its main 'weapon' is "Afghanit" which protects it from incoming projectiles actively


Didn't the Americans try, and reject, the auto-loader equipped gun-in-turret concept in the late 80's? The APS was not part of it of course..

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby pralay » 18 Feb 2019 13:41

There is some chatter on titter today that Arjun Mark1A has cleared user validation trials.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1097382742197583872 ---> Arjun Mk 1A is accepted by the Indian Army. 118 will join the forces of 124 Arjun Mk 1.Arjun Mk 1A which is an upgraded version of existing Arjun Mk 1 has completed validation trials. And this is not the last. Arjun Mk 2 which is even another improved model is coming.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Feb 2019 13:58

Let the chatter become a group discussion saar.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby wig » 18 Feb 2019 14:02

Army accepts ‘Mark1-A’ version of Arjun tanks
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 30651.html

excerpts...
an upgraded version of the Arjun tank, having better firing and mobility, has been accepted by the Army following month-long validation trials in Rajasthan. The trials were completed in December last and a report has followed. The Army is looking at 118 pieces of the new version. In 2010-11, the first version of the Arjun had joined the Army and 124 pieces had been ordered. The production of the new version, dubbed as Arjun ‘Mark 1-A’, is likely to commence within this year at the existing facility at Avadi in Tamil Nadu. It has a total of 14 upgrades over the existing version. These include an auto-target tracker, automatic gear system and improvement in suspension.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 18 Feb 2019 14:20

Good news. But confusing. Is this a separate branch of development from the Mark 2?

Are we retrofitting Mark 1s? Or are these new builds? I thought we have moved onto Mark 2s? Or are there lines for both?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashishvikas » 18 Feb 2019 14:28

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/109 ... 84128?s=19 ---> The current Arjun Mk-2 MBT configuration sans missile firing capability will be inducted as Mk-1A now. The 'true' Arjun Mk-2 will emerge once the weight reduction work underway at Ordnance Factory Medak & Reliance bears fruit.

From 12 September 2018....

RInfra to deliver parts prototypes for Arjun Mark II ahead of schedule
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 936545.ece

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 18 Feb 2019 14:36

Yes Mk2 will be 3 tonnes lighter and should have a redesigned hull and probably turret as well.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 18 Feb 2019 14:38

Super good news whose indication came when ARRV's were ordered.

The Mk1A is the old Mk2. New Mk2 will be lighter than the existing model.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 18 Feb 2019 14:45

So we would have potentially 300+ Mk1, MK1A, MK2.

The way I see it MK3 could be the FRCV iteration. I hoped Mk2 would be..however as long FRCV is desi, no issues.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 18 Feb 2019 14:48

The Reliance claim of delivering 6 months before schedule is now... nearly 6 months old.

Let's see if they keep the promise.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 18 Feb 2019 14:59

ashishvikas wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1097416161463984128?s=19 ---> The current Arjun Mk-2 MBT configuration sans missile firing capability will be inducted as Mk-1A now. The 'true' Arjun Mk-2 will emerge once the weight reduction work underway at Ordnance Factory Medak & Reliance bears fruit.

From 12 September 2018....

RInfra to deliver parts prototypes for Arjun Mark II ahead of schedule
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 936545.ece


Fantastic development! The best news at the end of a pretty sobering weekend.

Thanks for the explanations.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby wig » 18 Feb 2019 15:17

Army accepts ‘Mark1-A’ version of Arjun tanks
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 30651.html

regarding the Mk 2 Arjun excerpted...
In December last year, the Ministry of Defence had informed Parliament that the ‘Arjun Mark 1-A’ was being validated at trials. This was the first official confirmation that the ‘Mark 1-A’ will be an additional version of the tank till the ‘Mark 2’ version, somewhat lighter in weight, is readied and accepted.

The development shows that the MoD is ready to keep on improving the Arjun, be addition of more power or wanting the weight to be reduced. The Army was okay with the ‘Mark 1-A’ version, but wants the next version to be lighter than its present weight of 68 tonne. Most modern European tanks are of the same weight, and tank-transporters (specialised trucks) for Arjun are available to ferry it.

The ‘Mark 2’ will have to be lighter by some 3 tonne. This may require some modification in the hull of the tank for the final contours to emerge.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 18 Feb 2019 15:20

Damn good news for this Arjun fan !!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 18 Feb 2019 18:14

Biggest! Yahooo..

Mk1 124
Mk1a 118
Mk2 ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 18 Feb 2019 19:48

Nirmalaji rocks

Army accepts ‘Mark1-A’ version of Arjun Tanks
http://defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=583171

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Feb 2019 21:10

I humbly apologize to the forum for being too harsh on her in Rafale forum. She has done part of the miracle. This is a good start, Devi ko sashtang pranam. I hope my sins are expunged from my records on the BRF memory henceforth.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby A Deshmukh » 18 Feb 2019 21:26

NS seems to have done a Parrikar with Mk1A on Arjun. Breaking the logjam and get things moving.
I was expecting this.
NS has a constituency in TN. Major Arjun orders will happen sooner or later.
More Arjun orders translates into money to component suppliers and employment generation opportunities in the TN defence industry.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 18 Feb 2019 21:36

Sirs dumb question, are we past the AON (reissue may be needed as the previous ones issued in 2012 and 2014 would have expired), RFP, technical/financial proposal stages, budgetary sanction ? if we arent we probably need to wait to uncork the bagpiper bottle.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashthor » 18 Feb 2019 21:47

Make in India Vijaye Bhava

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Feb 2019 22:01

^^IMHO arjun was always a harder nut to crack. We still havent seen the levels of Arjun that Tejas has seen. But this is a good start

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 18 Feb 2019 23:26

Alha hu akbar.... jingo kush hua!!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 18 Feb 2019 23:39

Great news!! Pappu has his response. Jingo bahut khush hua!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 00:39

My post in early December 2018!!!!

viewtopic.php?p=2308666#p2308666

ramana wrote:Do you think India will abide by Indus Water Treaty in such a war?
We will stop the flow of water as needed.

I think the IA needs to have second look at the Arjun requirement.

In 1965 the Centurions were bought at minimal buy (~185) with the hope that the Vickers tank will soon be made at Avadi. The first of them was rolled out in 1967 after the war.

The Armoured Corps generals thought that they will be like cavalry and riding on chargers and bought the light weight AMX-13. While Pak was getting Pattons by the boatload. They got two Armored divisions worth.
After the war had to cancel the light tanks and buy more medium tanks. That is how T-55s entered the picture.
And these had to be up gunned with the L-7 105mm tank gun. And promptly sent to reserves.
T-55->>T-72->>T90
It was the bravery, innovation and ingenuity of the personnel that changed the tide in 1965 and yet myopia still persists.

I think the problem is the British training that still persists.


Looks like they have done so!!!!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Feb 2019 00:49

^^is there any clarity on the numbers?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 03:52

118 Arjun Mk1A

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 03:59

ashishvikas wrote:Upgraded Arjun tank on trial
‘Mark1-A’ version to have better firing capability, mobility, lesser weight
Posted at: Dec 30, 2018, 1:59 AM

https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/ ... 06089.html


We had data but did not processes it.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 04:06

wig wrote:Army accepts ‘Mark1-A’ version of Arjun tanks
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 30651.html

excerpts...
an upgraded version of the Arjun tank, having better firing and mobility, has been accepted by the Army following month-long validation trials in Rajasthan. The trials were completed in December last and a report has followed. The Army is looking at 118 pieces of the new version. In 2010-11, the first version of the Arjun had joined the Army and 124 pieces had been ordered. The production of the new version, dubbed as Arjun ‘Mark 1-A’, is likely to commence within this year at the existing facility at Avadi in Tamil Nadu. It has a total of 14 upgrades over the existing version. These include an auto-target tracker, automatic gear system and improvement in suspension.



Help me understand the numbers. First trance was 124 Arjun Mk1. Now 118 Arjun Mk1A.
Why the difference of six?
Is this to arm a brigade or will they be just regiments and disbursed in armored brigades?

How is the Mk1 deployed in IA now?

Also note that Mk1A can fire the LAHAT except the missile wont work at the minimum range IA specified.
The minimum range is well with in Arjun 120mm tank gun.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Feb 2019 04:31

Is there any scope of increase in orders?
The current orbat is
T90: ~1650
T72: ~2400
BMP2: ~2700
Arjun Mk1: 124

I hope T72s are progressively converted to Arjun.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2019 04:58

ramana wrote:First trance was 124 Arjun Mk1. Now 118 Arjun Mk1A.
Why the difference of six?
Is this to arm a brigade or will they be just regiments and disbursed in armored brigades?

The Arjun Mk1 tank serves with the 43rd Armoured Regiment and the 75th Armoured Regiment.

Some sources state that there are 62 tanks in an Indian armoured regiment. That would explain the 124 Mk1 tanks, as 62 x 2 = 124.

Other sources state that there are only 45 tanks in in an Indian armoured regiment. That would mean 90 Mk1s divided between the two armoured regiments. The rest would probably go to institutions like the Armoured Corps Centre and School in Ahmadnagar. But that is a difference of 34 Mk1s, which seems like an an awfully high number just for an Armoured School.

Yet other sources state 55 tanks in armoured regiment, which would mean 110 Mk1s between the two regiments and 14 Mk1s left.

The 118 Arjun Mk1As will be again in two armoured regiments, but the difference of six could be anything.

Someone like ParGha will probably know the right number. Also if ParGha or someone could break down the platoon numbers it would be nice. Just an average is good enough. Something like below...

https://www.quora.com/How-many-tanks-ar ... rigade-etc

See the two quotes below on Indian Amoured Corps regiment tank strength. Contradiction on the same page!! :) I remember Rupak telling me years ago about the breakdown (operational, training and reserves) in the first quote. At least that part is correct.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... iments.htm

The distribution of tanks in an Indian Army Armoured Regiment is: 30 Tanks; 15 Training tanks (which are fully operational during combat; and 10 tanks as reserves (mechanical and attrition).

As of 2008 the Indian Army had 61-63 armoured regiments, each typically with 45 tanks.

------------
ramana wrote:How is the Mk1 deployed in IA now?

Both armoured regiments are based in Rajasthan. See below...

Standards presented to 75 AR and 43 AR by the COAS
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=138051
16 March 2016

Jaisalmer Military Station witnessed a historic moment on Wednesday, 16 Mar 2016, when General Dalbir Singh, Chief of the Army Staff, on behalf of the Hon’ble President of India, Shri Pranab Mukherjee, presented the ‘President’s Standards’ to 75 Armoured Regiment and 43 Armoured Regiment. Both the Regiments conducted a mounted parade on the indigenous Arjun tanks with clockwork precision and immaculate coordination in consonance with the highest traditions of the Indian Army. To commemorate this historic event, the Chief of Army Staff also released a “Special Cover”.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2019 05:17

ramana wrote:Nirmalaji rocks

Army accepts ‘Mark1-A’ version of Arjun Tanks
http://defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=583171

Yes Ramana-ji, Niramala-ji does indeed rock!

This is fabulous news, but to me this is the highlight from the article. Every platform we have - desi or phoren - must be serviced within India. And if a desi platform has major phoren components, then those major components need to be serviced within India. None of this sending platforms and/or components to phoren countries for servicing. The IAF did that - for example - with the Mi-26 and the IN does that with her Sindhugosh Class boats.

Going forward, the entire MROU (Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul and Upgrade) process needs to be done in India. Expensive yes, but well worth the money. When she was in active service, apparently the Mi-26 flew the journey from India to Russia. Colossal waste of money if true. For an eventual production run of 500 - 1000 Arjun tanks, the entire MROU of the Arjun's 1,400 hp MTU engine and Renk transmission should be done in India. However DRDO is working on its own 1,500 hp engine and another organization is working on a local transmission.

As part of the arrangement with the Army, the DRDO has promised to set up a system to maintain the Arjun within India. It will be an annual maintenance contract with one of the PSUs such as Bharat Earth Movers Limited.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2019 05:55

ArjunPandit wrote:Is there any scope of increase in orders?
The current orbat is
T90: ~1650
T72: ~2400
BMP2: ~2700
Arjun Mk1: 124

I hope T72s are progressively converted to Arjun.

You cannot do a one-to-one conversion from T-72 to Arjun.

The Armoured Corps loves medium weight tanks, especially in the Punjab sector. Heavy tanks like the Arjun - as per the Armoured Corps - cannot function effectively in the region. The open deserts of Rajasthan is a different story.

Arjun conversion for armoured regiments will be based on theatre of operations i.e. geographical location. Around 500 - 1000 units (that latter number is a very HIGH guesstimate on my part) is more likely. Even the Mk2 variant - at ~65 tons - will not work there. The Mk1 (58+ tons), Mk1A (68 tons) and Mk2 (65 tons) variants will all serve in the deserts.

The new Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) contest, which is tailor written for the T-14 Armata in my humble opinion, will serve as the T-72 replacement. Perhaps CVRDE can scale down the Arjun tank to a 50 ton design? Gurus, is that doable?

The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) contest is not making any headway either and the T-15 (not T-14) Armata will likely be the BMP-2 replacement. See below on the FICV....

Indian Army's Rs 60,000-crore FICV project stuck in procedural delays: Official sources
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 349313.cms
02 Jan 2019

"The original plan is to induct the FICVs by 2025. The way things are moving, it is unlikely that we will be able to induct them before 2050," said a military official involved in the project.

2050! :lol:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 19 Feb 2019 07:17

Indian Armoured Regiments are organized along this basis: Troop >> Squadron >> Regiment. Above that, everything is a combined-arms formation. Only special purpose squadrons (currently only the Presidential Bodyguard Cavalry on operational duties) have a "Patrol" under a Troop; they are usually jeep/truck/dismounted sub-units on deep recce missions (for example, as Pathfinders).

In an IA T-72 regiment, a troop has 4x tanks, a squadron has 3x troops + 2x tanks at squadron HQ, a regiment has 3x squadrons + 3x tanks at regimental HQ. This is a total of 45 tanks per regiment. IA switched to this in 1980s for greater battlefield autonomy. Sorry, I don't know how Arjun regiments are organized.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2019 07:49

ParGha Sir, you rock and are amazing! Thank you so much!

One can extrapolate the above into the T-90 as well.

Arjun will be somewhere between 45 - 62 tanks per armoured regiment. Sorry Ramana-ji for being vague, but in the absence of anything concrete about the composition in the 43rd and 75th AR, this is the best one can come up with.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 08:11

Pargha Yes 45 tanks per regiment is IA norm. However maybe they hold higher 60 tanks like in pre 1965 days to create heavy tank regiments.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 08:21

Ok Here is the raising story of 43 Armoured Regiment

43rd Armour Raising Day



Press Release for First Arjun Regiment

43rd armored regiment henceforth will be proudly called as ARJUN REGIMENT. Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi handed over 16 Arjun tanks signifying the cumulative of 45 main battle tanks i.e. Arjun for Indian army through the hands of the Director General of mechanized force Lt. Gen D. Bharadwaj, Vsm. Sri S. Chandrasekar, Addl DG Ordinance Factory(AV) was the happiest man to deliver the state of art main battle tank designed and developed by CVRDE, Avadi along with other DRDO and industrial partners. Dr. Shivathanu Pillai Chief Controller DRDO, flagged -off the tanks amidst a jubilant crowd in a festival mood. The regiment of 45 tanks will be subjected to a conversion training and field practice for a period of 3 months. Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by March 2010.

arjun1.JPGarjun2.JPGarjun3.JPG
As there was a long gap from the R&D phase to production phase from 1993 to 2000, problems related to reestablishing production lines and vendor sources and resolving overseas issues like technology denials in view of Pokhran testing, change over and mergers of OEMS for the critical items delayed initial commencement of production. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at HVF, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak. However the first pilot batch of production tanks were handed over to Army in 7th August 2004 in the presence of then Honorable Defense Minister Shri Pranab Mukherjee, During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonsration of medium fording capabilities of the tank. Both C V R D E and HVF, continuously worked on war footing , to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a hight of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to defence minister Hon?ble Sri AK Antony and other VVIPs on 2nd July, 2007. Subsequently the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modification and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep2007. The remaining 62 tanks will be handed over to Army before March 2010 as desired by indian army. The DG MF has told with a happy note that Arjun is the proud possession of Indian army .


OK so its standard 45 tanks for Arjun regiments also.
So where are the rest of the tanks?
may be two more under strength regiments are in forming mode?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shaun » 19 Feb 2019 08:21

Imagine the same with Mk1A..

Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 08:28

And 75th Armoured Regiment inducting the Arjun

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 686973.cms

JAISALMER: The indigenous Arjun tank was today formally inducted into the 75 Armoured Regiment at a ceremony here, over 37 years after the project was commissioned by the government.

"Lieutenant General A K Singh, general officer commanding in chief (GOC-in-C) of the southern command, inducted the tank. The ceremony also marked the passage of T 55 tanks from the inventory after forty years of reliable service," a defence spokesperson said.


He said that 45 Arjun tanks were inducted. The event also marked the 39th Raising day of the regiment, in which over 1000 retired officers and jawans took part.


75 Armoured Regiment is the only Indian armoured regiment to be raised on foreign soil during the 1971 Indo-Pak war at Gadra road (now in Pakistan)on 12 March 1972, he added.


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