MBT.. FICV.. FMBT .. Now FRCV.. The acronyms are making my head spin.

Philip wrote:Terrain ,thanks to the Almighty prevents the dragon from rushing in with large numbers of MBTs through the Himalayas ,why they"re fielding only light tanks in the mountains. The overwhelming superiority we need is mainly against Pak in Jammu, Poonjab and the desert terrain further south.
Link to the RFI: https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... v%2017.pdfRishi_Tri wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/75533/indi ... at-vehicle
MBT.. FICV.. FMBT .. Now FRCV.. The acronyms are making my head spin.Is this the reason why nothing has happened on either FICV or Arjun Mk2?
nachiket wrote:ramana wrote:
They are merely searching for reasons to avoid buying Arjuns.
Common Philip in operational config with Night vision equipments etc added the T-90 is costlier than the low volume Arjun produced, if Arjun is mass producced it will be cheaper.Philip wrote:[b
I am only giving a historical account of understanding where we are today with respect to our armoured warfare procurement of MBTs.In the current context of ordering more A-2s,leaving aside the weight and other technical issues,remember the cost factor,which is significant.Arjun reportedly costs $8.3M as against just $4.5M for a T-90MS. The ball is in the IA,MOD and Fin.Min's court.Remember that the Fin.Min. have from time to time exercised its veto/objections,esp. with respect to the extra costs for the Scorpenes which PC strongly objected to before the deal was sealed.There are many hidden dangers that could trip up an approval for a weapon system for the services in the "Great Maze of the Babu" in the corridors of power in Delhi.
Philip wrote:Common sense also dictates that a tank weighing less by 20t ,2/3 rd the size of an A series,will cost approx. proportionally less.
Yepsahay wrote:Link to the RFI: https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... v%2017.pdfRishi_Tri wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/75533/indi ... at-vehicle
MBT.. FICV.. FMBT .. Now FRCV.. The acronyms are making my head spin.Is this the reason why nothing has happened on either FICV or Arjun Mk2?
You tell me now. Can the arjun fly? No? Rejetted onlee.(e) Engage low flying manned and unmanned rotary wing aircraft.
That is what local products are up against - lack of common sense as displayed in this post from an ex-armed forces poster. And the "total" cost of the T-90 is higher than the Arjun Mk1. Add all hidden costs like the missile, etc. and you will find it. There was probably a CAG paper on this as well. The poster knows he is telling an untruth, but it helps his motivations and so is OK. Sab chalta hai!!Philip wrote:Please,I am using open open info available on costs,not .y own figs. There are several media reports reg. the T-90 deals,made in batches. Common sense also dictates that a tank weighing less by 20t ,2/3 rd the size of an A series,will cost approx. proportionally less.The most favourable comparison still puts the A-1 at $1.7M more expensive than a T-90MS.,around 25% costlier.
Most western tanks are in the $8M range.A-2 Will definitely cost at least 10-15% more.
Pretty sure Philip didnt mean that wayRaveen wrote:Philip wrote:Common sense also dictates that a tank weighing less by 20t ,2/3 rd the size of an A series,will cost approx. proportionally less.
ROFLMAO![]()
Only if you're buying a tin can from the local kabadi wala/junkyard.
If all there is to a tank is metal wt therefore metal cost, then lord save us all.
No.Philip wrote:Common sense also dictates that a tank weighing less by 20t ,2/3 rd the size of an A series,will cost approx. proportionally less.
Philip, did you serve in the forces?Vivek K wrote:in this post from an ex-armed forces posterPhilip wrote:
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/materiel-branchDNuSMAQ Directorate of Nuclear Submarine Acquisition
DNSPI Directorate of Nuclear Submarine Project & Infrastructure
CWP & A Controller of Warship Production & Acquisition
DSMAQ Directorate of Submarine Acquisition
DND (SSG) Directorate of Naval Design (Surface Ship Design Group)
DND (SDG) Directorate of Naval Design (Submarine Design Group)
DACP Directorate of Aircraft Carrier Projects
DSP Directorate of Ship Production
IFA (N) Integrated Financial Advisor (Navy)
DSCT Directorate of Strategy, Concepts & Transformation
DNP Directorate of Naval Plans
DW Directorate of Works
DSR Directorate of Staff Requirements
DONA Directorate of Naval Armament
DNAI Directorate of Naval Armament Inspectorate
While it may seem overstaffing, please note that each of these Directorates are themselves huge repositories of know-how, knowledge and innovation.DME Directorate of Marine Engineering
DFM Directorate of Fleet Maintenance
DNA Directorate of Naval Architecture
DOI Directorate of Indigenisation
DODY Directorate of Dockyard
DEE Directorate of Electrical Engineering
DWE Directorate of Weapons & Equipments
His solution was a NAMICA with lots of cheap missiles for anti tank, anti bunker, anti helicopter & anti UAV with no armour and an Active Protection System, DIRCM & laser jammer. Possibly a remotely operated 12.7 mm gun for close in work.Pratyush wrote:Taking the brigadiers view to it's logical conclusion.
The missile boats did their job in Karachi.Pratyush wrote:A missile firing Jeep is the ultimate vehicle for morden war fare
Very interesting post. This encourages me to put a point that I have been thinking over for a while now, which I didn't dare putting on BRF before looking at how even Doval was poopooed when he said that tank battles is a thing of past (to be frank even I was not convinced at that time about what he said, but then he is NSA for a reason perhaps). Why not do away with Tanks altogether, (in phased manner perhaps), and tackle tank attacks from enemies using anti-tank measures such as Attack helis, armoured UAVs, MANPADs, PGMs and as you mentioned lightly armoured vehicles with anti-tank missiles..? What is it that tanks still bring on table for us considering our requirements vis-à-vis bakis and chinis..?tsarkar wrote:I had a discussion with a Brigadier commanding an Independent Armoured Brigade. Posting generic points.
His PoV was most current Western tanks were like Japanese battleship Yamato with 18" guns ineffective against aircraft and obsolete the day it was launched. They have only front & side protection and gun firing APFSDS that is LOS dependent.
Western tanks are built around firing APFSDS & protecting against APFSDS and war has move beyond that. The primary threat to tanks are proliferating RPG, mines, cheap ATGMs, helicopters and finally tanks. He said Longewala was the last tank battle fought in the Indian Subcontinent and it wasnt tank vs tank. Large Tank vs Tank battles, while appealing, will be rare in future. More common would be Battle of Basantar that saw tanks leading combined arms forces.
Presently, BMPs with Konkurs are the primary strike element with T-72s engaging enemy tanks that evade Konkurs.
T-90s use INVAR more against tanks & other fortifications than APFSDS because of its non LOS capabilities.
His PoV was just like ships dispensed armour and went with CIWS/ECM/Active Counter Measures and knights dispensed armour suits because they couldn't stop bullets, tanks will soon discard armour for Active Protection Systems, DIRCM & Laser Jammers.
Apparently the US had massive air superiority that allowed engineering elements to support heavy tanks. In India and Pakistan, there is a proliferation of canals for irrigation and some like Ichhogil Canal were built for defence of Lahore. Without massive air & artillery superiority as well as heavy engineering for mineclearing & bridgelaying, ferrying heavy tanks across will be vulnerable to enemy attacks.
He said German heavy tanks performed superlatively in WW2. He cites a Brad Pitt movie (that I havent watched) that realistically shows a German Tiger knocking off multiple US Shermans. His PoV was despite the proven superiority of the Tiger against the Sherman, the Sherman could go where German tanks couldnt and influence the battle.
Hence an ask for medium tanks for riverine environments of Punjab & Bengal and hilly terrain of Himachal, Jammu, Ladakh & Sikkim.
His view was just like ships moved from guns to missiles for anti ship, anti air, anti missile & land attack, tanks too need to evolve.
More specific to Arjun in my next post.
That T90 which cannot even finish a simple competition under ideal conditions..? What can be expected from it under War conditions where nothing goes as per plan...? Even junk Chini maal was faring better...Philip wrote:Pl read the Yanqui appreciation for the T-90 too,posted earlier.
Was the reason for the breakdown disclosed ?JayS wrote: That T90 which cannot even finish a simple competition under ideal conditions..? What can be expected from it under War conditions where nothing goes as per plan...? Even junk Chini maal was faring better...
Just a nitpick:Gagan wrote:The chinese tank did well, even after one of its wheels went kaput
Shiv,
To your point about getting rid of Armour on our side, I agree that Armour is not quite as useful in defence against invading Armour - one needs nimble multiples to incessantly attack from all possible directions and stop invading armour dead in their tracks
But Armour is the only thing that can invade, terrorize the enemy and then hold territory. It is the spine around which Infantry operates and deploys
In general MBTs and heavy IFVs,JayS wrote:What is it that tanks still bring on table for us considering our requirements vis-à-vis bakis and chinis..?
Isn't INVAR laser beam riding, and hence requires LOS from the tank for designation ?tsarkar wrote: T-90s use INVAR more against tanks & other fortifications than APFSDS because of its non LOS capabilities.
Yes ! someone who finally agrees with metsarkar wrote:I had a discussion with a Brigadier commanding an Independent Armoured Brigade. Posting generic points.
His PoV was most current Western tanks were like Japanese battleship Yamato with 18" guns ineffective against aircraft and obsolete the day it was launched. They have only front & side protection and gun firing APFSDS that is LOS dependent.
Western tanks are built around firing APFSDS & protecting against APFSDS and war has move beyond that. The primary threat to tanks are proliferating RPG, mines, cheap ATGMs, helicopters and finally tanks. He said Longewala was the last tank battle fought in the Indian Subcontinent and it wasnt tank vs tank. Large Tank vs Tank battles, while appealing, will be rare in future. More common would be Battle of Basantar that saw tanks leading combined arms forces.
Presently, BMPs with Konkurs are the primary strike element with T-72s engaging enemy tanks that evade Konkurs.
srin wrote:Not sure why we need such heavy calibre main gun in a "light" tank. Won't the turret itself weigh tonnes ?
Even a BMP can fire ATGMs these days. So, it might be better investing in very cheap ATGMs and equipping these tankettes with a couple of dozen of them. And maybe a 30mm gun to attack other IFVs, and choppers.
A modified BMP might do the trick.
Presently, BMPs with Konkurs are the primary strike element with T-72s engaging enemy tanks that evade Konkurs.
T-90s use INVAR more against tanks & other fortifications than APFSDS because of its non LOS capabilities.
Yes INVAR/Refleks requires LOS.srin wrote:Isn't INVAR laser beam riding, and hence requires LOS from the tank for designation ?tsarkar wrote: T-90s use INVAR more against tanks & other fortifications than APFSDS because of its non LOS capabilities.