Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Locked
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

disha wrote:^ It takes time. At the same time I look forward to titanium/Al-lithium landing gears and carbon fibre wheels. For the later, progress on making carbon fibre production cheaper at a set quality is more important.
I don’t know how easy or difficult the projects you mentioned are. But given a project, NAL can easily develop a co-cured and co-bonded Tejas wing in a very short time. It already did it for Saras. Saras’s entire half-wing is just made of two parts. Same with its horizontal stabilizer. Even tejas’s vertical tail is a single part.

A cocured/cobonded wing for Tejas will not decrease assembly time, but it will surely save costs and close to a 100 kgs.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Actually, I take that back. For Saras’s wing the weight savings was over 125 kg. But that was over a metallic wing. I don’t know what the weight savings would have been if the benchmark was another composite wing which was not cocured.
Zynda
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2309
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Zynda »

IR, can you post references where NAL have developed co-cured & co-bonded Wing for Saras?

Edit: I found one IIT presentation https://www.iitk.ac.in/tkic/workshop/sc ... osites.pdf
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

When the NP-2 took to the skies on July 23, it was the 56th flight of the aircraft and as on August 21, the LCA Navy has done 78 flights


https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/ ... 521845.cms

The navy supports the programme 100 per cent. The aircraft has always been a requirement for the navy. By the end of 2019, the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) INS Vikrant is expected to begin sea trials and will be commissioned a couple of years thereafter. We want aircraft on top of it and we want the LCA Navy to be there,” a source in the Indian Navy said.

LCA prototype at its present avatar does not meet the carrier capability requirements and that more work needs to be done before it is accepted by it.
Will NP3 be powered by F414 then?
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The navy was concerned about the weight related issues with the nlca. What would be the implications for the program of the new process devised by CSIR that reduces weight by 20 %.
Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 574
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Trikaal »

^I don't think weight of Tejas has gone down by 20%, rather only the weight of parts manufactured by CSIR has gone down by 20%. So the weight reduction in Tejas will be much less than 20% since parts manufactured by CSIR aren't that heavy to begin with.
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3113
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

SaiK wrote:Mr Tull, why do we need a ski jump for VTOL jet?
Royal Navy has chosen this configuration. I suppose this is to improve the payload and avoid using cats/arrestor wires, which do have some disadvantages in cost and maintenance.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

The MK-2 performance paramaters is what the IN hope the NLCA will bring with it, but a lot can be tested on the current prototypes saving time until the definitive version arrives.The essence of the matter is time.Development time and date of FOC.

However being single-engined and operating in a maritime environment, one does not envison a larger number acquired.Two reasons.First, cost.The current cost of an LCA is 463 crores, more than firang equivs incl. ouright MKI buys at 330 cr. Secondly , the greater performance of larger twin- engined birds which will be able to carry BMos- NG in the future will make them more attractive. A 3rd carrier, say sister ship of IAC-1 or using them aboard redesigned multi-role amphibs could increase numbers built. Basing some ashore in the ANC, etc. could increase demand.Both Ru and China also operate land based naval aviation assets in addition to carrier aircraft.This could lessen the burden of the IAF in maritimd ops allowing it to i crease numbers of heavy MKIs against China and Pak.
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by chola »

^^^ Price is an asinine argument. It is an indigenous plane, money goes from our right pocket (MOD) to our left pocket (HAL) building local capability and capacity along the way.

Single-engined carrier aircraft concerns are ho-hum when the US and its allies are going whole hog to a single-engine F-35 for the foreseeable future. The US (and friends) operated the A4 Skyhawk with a single turbojet for decades and in heavy combat over Vietnam.

The single F404/414 on the NLCA will be far more reliable than the two notorious RD-33s on the 29K. Let’s be honest here, Filipov.
Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 574
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Trikaal »

Philip wrote:Basing some ashore in the ANC, etc. could increase demand.Both Ru and China also operate land based naval aviation assets in addition to carrier aircraft.This could lessen the burden of the IAF in maritimd ops allowing it to i crease numbers of heavy MKIs against China and Pak.
IAF would never allow Navy to creep into its operational domain. They have problems with Army operating helos and you think they will allow Navy to operate aircrafts? Dream on!!!
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

chola wrote:^^^ Price is an asinine argument. It is an indigenous plane, money goes from our right pocket (MOD) to our left pocket (HAL) building local capability and capacity along the way.

Single-engined carrier aircraft concerns are ho-hum when the US and its allies are going whole hog to a single-engine F-35 for the foreseeable future. The US (and friends) operated the A4 Skyhawk with a single turbojet for decades and in heavy combat over Vietnam.

The single F404/414 on the NLCA will be far more reliable than the two notorious RD-33s on the 29K. Let’s be honest here, Filipov.
Not to mention the strategic nature of this investment!
Everything Russian is not gold P.
The only way perhaps the IAF or Navy would like more Mig 29s would be with western engines and avionics and complete tot so we can fix the damn thing...
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I guess it is more for dual/multi purpose use of the platform (ski jump) than for one type of jet.
______

Also note, the third NP might get F414. I think IN pushing for it makes a massive boost for Mk2 as well.
Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Kersi »

chola wrote:^^^ Price is an asinine argument. It is an indigenous plane, money goes from our right pocket (MOD) to our left pocket (HAL) building local capability and capacity along the way.

Single-engined carrier aircraft concerns are ho-hum when the US and its allies are going whole hog to a single-engine F-35 for the foreseeable future. The US (and friends) operated the A4 Skyhawk with a single turbojet for decades and in heavy combat over Vietnam.

The single F404/414 on the NLCA will be far more reliable than the two notorious RD-33s on the 29K. Let’s be honest here, Filipov.
F 8 Crusader, Etendard, A 7 Corsair, Alize are all single engined aircraft. I don't think IN has ever had a twin engined carrier borne aircraft. Of course two is better than one especially for carrier operations
Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 574
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Trikaal »

SaiK wrote:Also note, the third NP might get F414. I think IN pushing for it makes a massive boost for Mk2 as well.
Is it possible to fit F414 in the existing NP airframe?

Wikipedia says the dimensions are same so size shouldn't be an issue.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

They have to rework on the airflow & thrusts for various /specified altitudes.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Price is precisely why the massive price of an LCA 463 cr., when compared with a 330 cr. MKI is why the issue is under investigation.Our DPSUs simply cannot charge what they want including inefficiency costs to the taxpayer.Moreover, a lot of the LCA is imported from engines to radar and much weaponry likd Derby AAMs, PGMs, etc.A significant portion of the cost goes abroad.

The MIG 29K is a twin-engined bird.The onus is on MIG to rectify any problems in the hope that the deal was properly drawn up by our MOD babus regarding defects, OEM liability, etc.The fact that the same 29K bird has been ordered by the RuN indicates that the problems have been resolved.MIG should replace IN birds if defective beyond repair, otherwise future orders will definitely evaporate !

Should problems be resolved, at its price of around $35M today and capable of carrying BMos- NG when it arrives, it woulx be the most cost- effective solution to increasing the number of IN carrier aircraft.

There is nothing preventing the IN from acquiring more naval fighters and LRMP birds including Backfires to increase our domination of the IOR's maritimd environment.Future increased maritime air requirements should be met solely by expanding IN aviation assets. The IAF should also expand its inventory to increase both numerical and qualitative assets to dominate the sub-continental airspace with principal enemies Pak and China in mind.A reduced responsibility in the maritime domain where we have lesser top- line aircraft positioned against us, with Chin CBGs still some years away from permaneng IOR patrols, the IN for the ensuing years with 29Ks and NLCAs should be able to do the biz. especially with tanker support for extended range. The money saved by the IAF could be used by it for acquiring superior aircraft and weaponry with which to confont the Sino- Paki axis of evil.NLCAs should be particularly useful when used in our island bases operating from smaller runways , etc. and coastal bases in the southern peninsula.

Incidentally there is a report of new TU-142 modernised and upgraded Bears being acquired by the RuAF with full glass cockpits, increased numbers of missiles carried, etc.These are supposedly the equiv. of new build aircraft.The Syrian experience where these aircraft ran bombing runs from their Russian bases shows the extraordinary range and endurance of the strategic / maritime strike/ ASW aircraft.Equipped with new extended range missiles, these birds could theoretically operating from the mainland even carry out strikes in the Pacific.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

#PlaneMorning

Big big breaking regarding this system
According to some reports there is a possibility of an order of 46 N LCA Mk. II for #IndianNavy by 2025

Image: Livefist https://t.co/5f3DEv1Nj4
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by JayS »

^^ So basically NLCA is going just as it was anyway going to go before 2017. Why was all that drama in 2017 then..? That simply wasted a whole year in NLCA's test program.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Certain people.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK wrote:#PlaneMorning

Big big breaking regarding this system
According to some reports there is a possibility of an order of 46 N LCA Mk. II for #IndianNavy by 2025

Image: Livefist https://t.co/5f3DEv1Nj4
Yes! Fantastic news. I hope it is true.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

most likely, IMHO, it could be that they have successfully mated F414-ins6. but just a WAG.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

JTull wrote:
SaiK wrote:Mr Tull, why do we need a ski jump for VTOL jet?
Royal Navy has chosen this configuration. I suppose this is to improve the payload and avoid using cats/arrestor wires, which do have some disadvantages in cost and maintenance.

SaiK,
The VTOL consumes a lot of fuel for takeoff.
Even the Harrier was a gas guzzler.
So some RN pilot came up with idea of ski-jump to assist the take off.
This conserve some fuel to enable useful range.
Also Ski Jump avoids the catapult launcher.
But still needs the arrestor wires to land.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Interesting.. makes economic/operational sense even if one considers one-way ski takeoff and vert. landing.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32224
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

Trikaal wrote:
Philip wrote:Basing some ashore in the ANC, etc. could increase demand.Both Ru and China also operate land based naval aviation assets in addition to carrier aircraft.This could lessen the burden of the IAF in maritimd ops allowing it to i crease numbers of heavy MKIs against China and Pak.
IAF would never allow Navy to creep into its operational domain. They have problems with Army operating helos and you think they will allow Navy to operate aircrafts? Dream on!!!
This argument has been done and dusted a long time ago.

The IN has the predominance in all aspects of the maritime role, period.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by SaiK »

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK, please post Naval Tejas pictures and info only in this thread. Thank You.
Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 574
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Post by Trikaal »

SaiK wrote:Image
What is that being pointed at in the pic?
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Cross post.

Deviations for max pitch rate. They are targeting 4m sec sink rate. Who here thinks that our fellows don't understand aerodynamics?

Image

Link to original post: Click here
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Very beautiful picture. I always loved the Naval Tejas over the IAF variant.
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5720
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Image
LCA Navy during the recent trials
barath_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 03 Apr 2017 10:40

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by barath_s »

JTull wrote:
SaiK wrote:Mr Tull, why do we need a ski jump for VTOL jet?
Royal Navy has chosen this configuration. I suppose this is to improve the payload and avoid using cats/arrestor wires, which do have some disadvantages in cost and maintenance.
It adds significantly to takeoff weight (payload/fuel for range) and to safety.. Carrier aircraft, and especially STOVL carrier aircraft have tended to have the highest "lawn dart" rates historically. The ski jump provides a vertical impetus when most needed, allowing the aircraft to takeoff at a lower speed than otherwise and continue accelerating while in the air, without ever dipping below the level of the flight deck. Remember the flight deck on a carrier may itself dip or move due to sea condition/waves.

Also, arrestor wires are not necessary for STOVL aircraft. However there are some bringback weight limits for vertical landings. (ie you might have to expend or dump certain portion of fuel or munitions). The bringback limits can be increased by using short rolling vertical landings, where lift from wings (with some forward speed) and vertical thrust from engine/lift engine together are used. The advantages means that operationally, even the harrier and F35B which are designed for vertical landing actually tend to use the short rolling vertical landing instead

A ski jump +arrestor wires is often called a STOBAR (Short take off but arrested recovery) system and is used in current russian, indian and chinese carriers
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by arshyam »

barath_s wrote:A ski jump +arrestor wires is often called a STOBAR (Short take off but arrested recovery) system and is used in current russian, indian and chinese carriers
Thanks, that's good to know.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Rakesh wrote:Very beautiful picture. I always loved the Naval Tejas over the IAF variant.
Same here!
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Who doesn't?
chaitanya
BRFite
Posts: 218
Joined: 27 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: US

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by chaitanya »

TSPN, of course...

(sorry couldn't resist hehe)
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

LCA Naval version doesn’t meet Navy’s requirements: Admiral Lanba
They had systems in place and the armed forces worked shoulder to shoulder with the state in rescuing the flood victims.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 98372.html

KOCHI: Asserting the Naval version of the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) does not meet the qualitative requirements of the Indian Navy, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba said the Navy is working with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to explore the possibility of developing an indigenous alternative.

“The tech demonstrator of LCA Navy doesn’t meet our requirement of being a deck-based fighter aircraft. We are now working with the DRDO and the ADA to find a solution. Developing a fighter aircraft is a time-consuming project. That’s why we are trying to acquire 57 fighter aircraft from abroad,” he said during an exclusive chat with The New Indian Express. Excerpts:

Q. Have we set a time frame for the purchase of the 57 fighter jets?
We have floated a Request for Information (RfI) and received replies from the original equipment manufacturers of four carrier-based fighter jets. We are right now examining the proposals. I am confident the Request for Bid (RfB) can be floated by the end of 2019. The four fighters include Boeing’s F-18 Super Hornet, Saab’s Gripen, the Russian MiG-29K and Dassault’s Rafale. The aircraft should meet the qualitative requirements of a carried deck-based fighter. We will examine the proposals and take it forward.

Q. Do you think the controversy over the Rafale deal will delay the Navy’s proposal for acquisition of fighter jets?
I don’t think it will affect the purchase of jets for the Navy. There is no link between the two.
There were reports the acquisition of ammunition is being affected due to the Rafale controversy.
Purchase of fighter jets and ammunition are totally different and there will not be any impact on the present or future acquisition process. The acquisition of Naval ammunition is progressing as per the plans. We do not face any shortage of ammunition.
The indigenous aircraft project is running behind schedule. Have you got any assurance from the Cochin Shipyard Ltd regarding the delivery of the vessel?
The indigenous aircraft carrier project has made steady progress. There has been a delay in the construction due to a delay in the supply of equipment from the original equipment manufacturers overseas. All the issues have been put behind and we have worked out the timeline for completion of the project. The vessel has started switching on the machine and launched harbour trials. I am confident she will start sailing for sea trials in 2020 and will be delivered by the end of 2020.

Q. Is there any progress in the proposal to acquire a third aircraft carrier?
We are working with the ministry for the acquisition of a third aircraft carrier and I am hopeful we will get the approval in principle soon. The plan is to build an indigenous conventionally powered Catapult Assisted Take-off, Barrier Assisted Recovery (CATOBAR) aircraft carrier.

Q. Does the Navy face any dearth of talent in recruitment?
No. We are getting enough candidates for recruitment. The recruitment pool has shifted from large metros to tier I and tier II cities due to the change in the perception of urban people. In the metros, fewer people are now interested in joining the armed forces.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

I agree with the Admiral that LCA Navy Mk1 will not meet the requirements. I also agree with the Admiral that IN is supporting the development of the successor, and it takes time. And therefore, it makes sense to acquire fighters in the interim. But, I do have a couple of questions:
1. If it takes time to develop a naval fighter, how does Gripen appear on the list?
2. If the Mig-29K is again on the list, i.e. it can potentially do the job, then why have a list in the first place?
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5720
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Someone with at least a little understanding of the domain needs to ask these tough questions to the Admiral. How is a paper project going to be evaluated and how is it ANY DIFFERENT from a paper Naval LCA Mk2? If the Sea Gripen can be considered for the 57 MRCBF requirement, then the Naval LCA Mk2 too should qualify.

As for MiG-29K, I believe that they can be included in the bid, since they have a genuine offering. Its flying off of IN's carrier and can be suitably upgraded and some of its issues can be fixed, at the OEM's cost. Whether it stacks up against the Super Hornet and Rafale M is another question and that will be dealt with in the technical evaluations of the contest.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Naval LCA Mk2 is much lesser of a paper plane than Sea Gripen. It is based on the Navy Mk1 which will be trapped on VikAd within a year! IN has decades of experience of operating Aircraft Carriers. Think about the wealth of knowledge of the TPs, the maintenance guys! Sweden has nothing to show against such experience!
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

The best the IN could do is just simply add operational status as a prerequisite to bidding for the contract and be done with both the Typhoon (if BAE is still interested) and the Gripen.
Locked