Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Aug 2017 18:48

So Shiv Docji, there was an Unannounced ABM test and these are the pieces of the Target missile? ''

Or letting imagination letting run wild, some Air launched interceptor missile and these are the parts of the Target missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Chinmay » 28 Aug 2017 18:58

The wreckage doesn't have to be recent though, right? It could be older test wreckage recovered today.
Last edited by Chinmay on 29 Aug 2017 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2017 18:59

Did Astra shoot down Prithvi?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 28 Aug 2017 19:13

Saurav Jha‏
@SJha1618
Meanwhile BEL has also got itself an EMC facility with an anechoic chamber that can support systems weighing up to 70 tonnes.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 3h3 hours ago
The new 50 ton rocket motor test facility at BDL set up by DRDO will cut down the time required for actually realizing products.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 28 Aug 2017 19:15

probably the target of some past ABM test. those metallic engine would not float, so must have been caught up in a bottom fish 'trawl' net in some shallowish area

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2017 19:15

Chinmay wrote:The wreckage doesn't have to be recent though, right? It could older test wreckage recovered today.

This is likely IMO.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby uddu » 28 Aug 2017 19:26

LRSAM http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 783236.jpg

The fins are small enough for it to be a large missile like P-II. Hence could be in the category of Lakshya, Banshee or AAM/SAM. Lakshya and Banshee do have tail which are longer and only one. While this got multiple fins of similar sizes. Also the tail of those target drones, don't end like this one. Not Astra because tail fin is different. perfectly matches with the LRSAM's tail fin.

Alzo Barak not that small mijjile.. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/413 ... jjiles.jpg :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 28 Aug 2017 21:18

Tsarkar.a) .LRSAM is in production while MRSAM still 3 years in future. How come if they are derivates of same missile. I would image LRSAM would be a more complex missile because its fired from a Ship ( unstable platform) ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 28 Aug 2017 22:29

the roundish blister marks all over indicate it was hit by a shower of ball bearings from a interceptor missile. hence has to be the prithvi target missile. the liquid motors also support it. note the gymbal type framework housing the motors.

plus ofcourse its even written prithvi on the chassis - quite a complex false flag op if this were not P

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 28 Aug 2017 23:46

Image
Image
Image

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Intricate plumbing points to liquid motor. Looks like a prithvi.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby uddu » 29 Aug 2017 00:30

Too small compared to Prithvi http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4 ... ory_ap.jpg http://www.odishanewsinsight.com/wp-con ... hvi-II.jpg the writing PII can be covered with a person's palm. Whereas in the original P-II it's about half a meter wide.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 29 Aug 2017 00:51

Chinmay wrote:The wreckage doesn't have to be recent though, right? It could older test wreckage recovered today.

This is very recent wreckage. There is total absence of organic or inorganic fouling expected with submergence in warm tropical waters.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2017 01:48

Recent wreckage otherwise would have barnacles attached to it.
Also the snakeskin pattern is for insulation of the hot tubes.

It looks like a PII target vehicle which was intercepted.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 29 Aug 2017 02:19

The blisters on P2 are telling that our ABM actually works :D

In case Pakistan and chinis want to know..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SivaVijay » 29 Aug 2017 08:46

If this is truly a ABM test then the evidence is pointing towards a boost phase interception and not an interception during re-entry. This will be very significant if true.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 08:53

Singha wrote:the roundish blister marks all over indicate it was hit by a shower of ball bearings from a interceptor missile. hence has to be the prithvi target missile. the liquid motors also support it. note the gymbal type framework housing the motors.

plus ofcourse its even written prithvi on the chassis - quite a complex false flag op if this were not P


The blister marks/holes are so close together that it looks like the hit was from very close quarters so the ball-bearings did not have time to spread

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 08:56

ramana wrote:Recent wreckage otherwise would have barnacles attached to it.
Also the snakeskin pattern is for insulation of the hot tubes.

It looks like a PII target vehicle which was intercepted.


True - also I would have expected paint to fade. A greenish-brown camouflage pattern typical of Prithvi is seen on the surface in one image near where it is stencilled "P II" - like this image
http://www.indiastrategic.in/image/Prithvi_missile.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 09:00

Singha wrote:probably the target of some past ABM test. those metallic engine would not float, so must have been caught up in a bottom fish 'trawl' net in some shallowish area

I guess this answers the question "Do they pick up the debris after a missile test" :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby hnair » 29 Aug 2017 09:34

sas wrote:Image
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Intricate plumbing points to liquid motor. Looks like a prithvi.


Looks like a PII target. The two engines are similar, including the regenerative cooling (or turbopump exhaust?) manifold ring around the nozzle
Image

Although if skin is aluminium, the pitting could be caused by sea-water corrosion, because there is not much depth to the pits. Those pits are not going to fold up or cut a real bad missile!


But way nicer approach than "ridiculously well-informed civilian enthusiast hiding behind a convenient bush with a camera at right time" :lol:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 09:41

Super sleuthing hnair.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 29 Aug 2017 09:47

uddu wrote:LRSAM http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 783236.jpg

The fins are small enough for it to be a large missile like P-II. Hence could be in the category of Lakshya, Banshee or AAM/SAM. Lakshya and Banshee do have tail which are longer and only one. While this got multiple fins of similar sizes. Also the tail of those target drones, don't end like this one. Not Astra because tail fin is different. perfectly matches with the LRSAM's tail fin.

Alzo Barak not that small mijjile.. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/413 ... jjiles.jpg :D


The dead giveaway of a Prithvi is the braided metal hose used to carry propellant and the small multiple liquid propellant motors both apparent in ANI Twitter photos. Only Prithvi has multiple liquid propellant motors. Refer image posted by Shiv here http://www.indiastrategic.in/image/Prithvi_missile.jpg

Solid fuelled missile dont have thick braided metal hose - check the LRSAM cutaway posted by you.

The smaller fins are rear fins at base of Prithvi, also apparent at in Shiv's photo.
Last edited by tsarkar on 29 Aug 2017 10:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 29 Aug 2017 09:48

Karan M wrote:Super sleuthing hnair.

Don't I get any brownie points for fastest finger answer in the previous page? :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 09:52

Yes you do! You called it. :)
I just reread the messages.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 29 Aug 2017 09:54

manjgu wrote:Tsarkar.a) .LRSAM is in production while MRSAM still 3 years in future. How come if they are derivates of same missile. I would image LRSAM would be a more complex missile because its fired from a Ship ( unstable platform) ?


The Israeli's were looking to build a successor to Barak 1 to counter Klub & Yakhont sold to Iran & Syria respectively. That is when India joined the program to make LRSAM.

Thereafter IAF wanted a Pechora replacement and IA too jumped into the bandwagon. So the MRSAM was conceptualized.

More to do with user preferences than technical complexity.

Israel doesn't want MRSAM because large number of its Air Force F-15, F-16 & now F-35 will penetrate enemy air space to take down enemy fighters there itself. So it builds ABM systems and C-RAM systems for its own terrestrial use.
Last edited by tsarkar on 29 Aug 2017 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2017 09:54

the last know abm test was on march1 this year. in 6 months marine growth and corrosion would have occurred
http://www.janes.com/article/68493/indi ... or-missile

this thing is unlikely to be more than a month old.

can anyone backcheck on the NOTAMs in this period for purported other missiles ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 09:55

Looks like Akash 2nd tranche order is stuck on hard nosed bargaining between MOD and BEL. Have to agree with Shukla here! Get it fast and don't let the line be idle.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/08/b ... -ours.html

Consider the missile production eco-system that the Akash has created. After the DRDO developed the Akash’s foundational technologies, two defence public sector undertakings – Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) and Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) – have functioned as “systems integrators” that put the entire system together. Numerous private sector companies, notably Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division) and Larsen & Toubro, have developed crucial sub-systems like the missile launchers; while 330 smaller private firms feed into the Akash’s production as Tier-2 and Tier-3 vendors. Besides building the Akash systems that are already operationally deployed on the borders, these companies constitute a technology eco-system that continuously upgrade the existing system and will develop the next generation of missiles. This is the first time such a production eco-system has been built for an indigenous missile and nurturing such an eco-system is an obvious national interest.

But production eco-systems are nurtured with production orders. Today, the Akash production chain stands empty as the defence ministry haggles with BEL over the cost of its next order. Consequently, the induction of another eight Akash squadrons is held up by the ministry’s insistence that the Akash must match international prices. There is neither understanding nor acknowledgement of the difficulties that indigenous manufacturers face, nor of the benefits of an indigenous system.

From the start, the air force pooh-poohed the Akash, pressing instead for foreign-built missile systems whose complex electronics could easily be sabotaged with a kill switch that renders it ineffective against certain aircraft. In repeated trials up to 2004, the air force rejected the Akash for specious reasons, even as the missile repeatedly struck its targets. Eventually, in an incident in 2004 that has gone into DRDO folklore, the Akash project director, Dr Prahlada, readied the missile for a final do-or-die attempt to demonstrate its accuracy. A Nishant drone was flown, trailing a target sleeve that the Akash was to engage. But then, just as the missile was readying to fire, the sleeve detached itself from the Nishant and floated to the ground. With the air force evaluation team ready to declare the trial a failure and doom the Akash to oblivion, Dr Prahlada boldly designated the Nishant drone as the target. The Akash missile slammed into the tiny Nishant 20 kilometres away, utterly destroying the ~1.5-crore drone. Dr Prahlada had to field audit objections for years, but the Akash had proved its effectiveness against a target far smaller than a combat aircraft.[b]

Why should the military buy more Akash, even if it costs more than equivalent foreign systems? There are at least five reasons.[b] First, technology is generational and the current Akash will inevitably birth a more capable version. Already, the DRDO is developing a seeker head on a budget of just ~50 crore that will make the Akash more accurate and capable of longer ranges. Second, producing the Akash in India provides employment, a key aim of the Make in India programme. Third, buying Indian creates a multiplier effect at multiple levels of our economy, whereas buying a system from abroad puts the money into another economy altogether. Every company involved in defence production, every employee, is paying direct and indirect taxes into the economy. Fourth, facilitating the development of defence systems in India creates strategic intellectual property; the government needs to subsidise IP creation with orders, as is done by the countries from which India routinely buys. Fifth, Indian defence firms cannot be directly compared with foreign industry because the cost of doing business in India, especially working capital costs, are significantly higher — 14-15 per cent here, compared to 2 per cent abroad. Add to that the 33 per cent corporate tax levied on Indian defence firms and the cost of equivalent Indian products works out at least 30 per cent higher than an identical product built abroad.

That is why the General Financial Regulations mandate that, in government procurement, if a product with 50 per cent value addition in India is up to 20 per cent more costly than an equivalent foreign product, the Indian vendor must be given the contract at the lowest bid price. If the foreign vendor bids ~100 and the Indian vendor quotes between ~100 and ~120, the Indian vendor must get the option to supply at ~100. For defence products, with their strategic dimension, the Indian vendor must be given the option to supply at a rate that is up to 20 per cent higher.


Ordering more Akash systems is essential for the Indian defence industry. This is the first time an entirely Indian designed, developed, and manufactured product is being deployed in numbers. The Akash experience would teach us a great deal about the dynamics of mass production, maintenance and spares support and upgrading it to the next level. And it would constitute a clarion call that the government is serious about indigenisation.


More money to Akash also means more money to all the desi subsystem suppliers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2017 09:55

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20401/ ... aTrVpMjGhc

India’s Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has set up a Near Field Antenna Test Range (NFTR) near Bangalore to calibrate and test Radars with AESA (Active Electronically Steerable Array) based Antenna arrays.

A BEL statement said it is a critical infrastructure for calibration and testing of Radars and communication antennas.
With most future weapons platforms including aircraft and ships coming with AESA radars, this facility is expected to play an important role in absorbing foreign technology as well as development of indigenous system for AESA radars.

The NFTR facility at Bengaluru is the third such in BEL and the only one in the Defence industry in India. This facility, set up at a cost of Rs. 30 crore (US$ 4.7 million) will, in addition to the AESA radars, help to calibrate antennas for major surface to air missile projects such as QRSAM, MRSAM and LRSAM.

The Indian Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, inaugurated Saturday an Academy for Excellence and two testing facilities — EMC Test facility and Near Field Antenna Test Range at the Bengaluru Unit of Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). Secretary (Defence Production) Shri Ashok Kumar Gupta Chairman & Managing Director, BEL Shri Gowtama MV and other senior officers of BEL were present.
The Academy of Excellence is envisaged to address the training needs of not only BEL employees, but also its customers, vendors and partners.

The Electro Magnetic Compatibility (EMC) facility is the first of its kind in India having Anechoic Chamber of size 11m x 21m x 30m and can conduct testing of Systems/Platforms weighing up to 70 Tonnes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 09:56

tsarkar wrote:
manjgu wrote:Tsarkar.a) .LRSAM is in production while MRSAM still 3 years in future. How come if they are derivates of same missile. I would image LRSAM would be a more complex missile because its fired from a Ship ( unstable platform) ?


The Israeli's were looking to build a successor to Barak 1 to counter Klub & Yakhont sold to Iran & Syria respectively. That is when India joined the program to make LRSAM.

Thereafter IAF wanted a Pechora replacement and IA too jumped into the bandwagon. So the MRSAM was conceptualized.

More to do with user preferences than technical complexity.

Israel doesn't want MRSAM because large number of its Air Force F-15, F-16 & now F-35 will penetrate enemy air space to take down enemy fighters there itself. So it builds ABM systems and C-RAM systems for its own terrestrial use.


BEL is yackety yacking about LRSAM orders. I hope they have some integration work with the radar and not just screwdriver work!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 29 Aug 2017 09:57

Just a side issue, as per some official reports issued about DRDO, the total expenditure on Nirbhay programme is only Rs. 26 crore till Dec 2016.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2017 09:59

means even the large ABM radars hauled in semi trailer can be moved in and tested. anyone know this location to peek at on google earth?

sample image from a vendor website
https://www.nsi-mi.com/images/Test_Serv ... NF-SNF.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 10:00

hnair wrote:Although if skin is aluminium, the pitting could be caused by sea-water corrosion, because there is not much depth to the pits. Those pits are not going to fold up or cut a real bad missile!

Check the pepper pot holes that go through and through the (composite?) sheet in the image below (man holding the peppered sheet on bottom left)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 29 Aug 2017 10:01

I think the intentional release and trawling etc etc was a subtle warning that our ABM is in place

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 10:13

Highlighting some other additional points!

Singha wrote:http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20401/BEL_Sets_Up_AESA_Radar_Test_Facility_Near_Bangalore#.WaTrVpMjGhc

India’s Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has set up a Near Field Antenna Test Range (NFTR) near Bangalore to calibrate and test Radars with AESA (Active Electronically Steerable Array) based Antenna arrays.

A BEL statement said it is a critical infrastructure for calibration and testing of Radars and communication antennas.
With most future weapons platforms including aircraft and ships coming with AESA radars, this facility is expected to play an important role in absorbing foreign technology as well as development of indigenous system for AESA radars.

The NFTR facility at Bengaluru is the third such in BEL and the only one in the Defence industry in India. This facility, set up at a cost of Rs. 30 crore (US$ 4.7 million) will, in addition to the AESA radars, help to calibrate antennas for major surface to air missile projects such as QRSAM, MRSAM and LRSAM.

The Indian Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, inaugurated Saturday an Academy for Excellence and two testing facilities — EMC Test facility and Near Field Antenna Test Range at the Bengaluru Unit of Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). Secretary (Defence Production) Shri Ashok Kumar Gupta Chairman & Managing Director, BEL Shri Gowtama MV and other senior officers of BEL were present.
The Academy of Excellence is envisaged to address the training needs of not only BEL employees, but also its customers, vendors and partners.

The Electro Magnetic Compatibility (EMC) facility is the first of its kind in India having Anechoic Chamber of size 11m x 21m x 30m and can conduct testing of Systems/Platforms weighing up to 70 Tonnes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 10:15

So BEL will do this in India as well for LRSAM & MRSAM. Good going.

AESA radars - domestic - include

Ashwini
Arudhra
QRSAM
ADFCR
Bharani Mk2
ADTCR
LLTR
MFR
Uttam

That's 9 programs at the very minimum, all on track to production (advanced stage of development/prototyping completed etc).

Imported programs include
MRSAM
LRSAM
GSM-100 (IAF LLTR program)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 10:20

shiv wrote:
hnair wrote:Although if skin is aluminium, the pitting could be caused by sea-water corrosion, because there is not much depth to the pits. Those pits are not going to fold up or cut a real bad missile!

Check the pepper pot holes that go through and through the (composite?) sheet in the image below (man holding the peppered sheet on bottom left)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg


Thats aluminium alloy I think.. not composite.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2017 10:21

these chambers can also be used to test RCS of scale models vs any selected emitter right? a kind of robot arm holds the model in place and turns it in 3axes to get readings.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... s-(mar.-29).html

khan being careful of corner testcases::
The planned testing will measure aircraft RCS and the performance of various antennas on the aircraft. Tests also will demonstrate the robustness of supportable low observable (SLO) materials and their ease of repair. After baseline testing, several doors and panels will be intentionally damaged and later repaired, and RCS measurements will be made to determine the impact of defects and the effectiveness of repairs.

The model's high-fidelity features include removable doors and access panels, canopy transparency, cockpit details, external lights, air data probes, engine components, edges, repositionable control surfaces, antenna apertures, radar array and a flight-capable radome.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2017 10:22


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 29 Aug 2017 10:33

singha, what you are speaking of is a closed version of:

http://www.oneindia.com/india/orange-to ... 10653.html

but typically emi/emc facility will be calibrated for that, not rcs test

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 29 Aug 2017 11:51

+ 100 to Shukla , The Akash program was almost sabotaged by Armed forces in late 2000's who wanted to put all the money on Barak-8 and cancel Akash but DRDO insisted on continuing with Barak-8 JV conditional to Armed FOrces buying larger Akash missiles system which they finally relented.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 29 Aug 2017 14:45

Tangentially related to this thread -
https://tribunecontentagency.com/articl ... t-request/
What’s in Japan’s Record 2018 Defense Budget Request?

Details of the request are yet to be fully finalized, but officials indicated that Japan will request money for: the introduction of the Aegis Ashore land-based missile defense system (amount unspecified because needs to be negotiated with the United States); SM-3 Block 2A intercept missiles (47.2 billion yen); PAC-3 MSE missiles (20.5 billion yen); the enhancement of the automatic warning and control system’s detection capacity (10.7 billion yen); the development of a next-generation radar capable of tracing stealth aircraft (19.6 billion yen); two destroyers that can remove sea mines (96.4 billion yen); six F-35A stealth fighters (88.1 billion yen); four Osprey tilt-rotor transport aircraft (45.7 billion yen) the maintenance of facilities for Self-Defense Forces units stationed on the southwestern islands of Okinawa (55.2 billion yen); the development of a high-speed glide bomb for use in contingencies on such islands (10 billion yen) or Rs 590Cr; the development of a system to monitor space activity (4.4 billion yen).

We've been testing our Garuda & Garuthma for a couple of years now. If we get it into LSP state, we could find a way to export it to the Japanese.


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