Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2017 13:22

i do not have much faith that even maws and automated countermeasures will save a flow flying heli from modern manpads which feature IIR sensors and measures to reject flares .

higher speed or more high alt delivery is only safe way.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2017 14:50

Singha wrote:kurds are not arabic. they are more closer to the persian-turkic anatolian belt which was fought over for centuries by greece, persia, ottomans etc. there are kurds in syria, turkey, iraq, iran and possible georgia and azerbaijan also.

i would imagine sanskrit, hindi, urdu, farsi have some strong ancient links ?

"Old Persian" and its descendants are derived from Sanskrit.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4521
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Sep 2017 23:10

Actually, the have a common ancestor along with Vedic. Indo-aryan branch of indoeuropean

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54781
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 03 Sep 2017 00:21

Can we stop detailing threads despite have appropriate threads to discuss linguistics origins?
Control and focus needed.

OIT thread is there in strat forum.

Ramana

YashG
BRFite
Posts: 186
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby YashG » 03 Sep 2017 10:43

sum wrote:
jamwal wrote:Thanks sas and ramana saars
Sum ji
Kindly post links

Sorry could not post initially since on mobile.

Anyways, found that the video is on youtube also:


Brutal demonstration of assymetric warfare. I noticed no chaff too but like someone said pilots didnt know they under crosshair - maws could have helped but do we have maws on indian helicopters?

Also loosing helis to cheap manpads is too costly. I would love to know how do you operate helis in a threat environment where enemy is way more advanced than the mideast militia - since India will be up with their helis in a possible scenario. (Indeed India has some edge with its domestc helis against both cheen and its sidekick)

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5158
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jamwal » 03 Sep 2017 17:03

iR missile relying on passive target acquisition are quite hard to defend against in such a short time. Thsese incidents denonstrate how assymetric warfare can be a great leveller. You do not need heavier tanks to counter an armoured offensive, just a few well placed Atagms can break the back of advancing columns. Air superiority of an enemy can be countered by a network of comparitively cheaper sams. Unconventional , cheap and yet reasonably successful war strategy.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 03 Sep 2017 17:53

With regards to the Turkish helicopter shootdown, the MANPADS operator was extremely well trained. The helicopter was making multiple passes but he held his nerve and fired only in a tail chase mode instead of head on. Tail chase missiles are difficult to jink off. In the initial part of the video the helicopter was firing its munitions, but this guy held his nerve, waited for the helicopter to complete its circuit and fired at its rear hemisphere.

Secondly, a IR emitter could've saved the situation, however, probably it was not fitted, or switched off like INS Hanit, or simply not working. Electronics fail notoriously.

IN Kamov and IAF Mi-17/25/35 have Russian L-166V Espanka (NATO: Hot Brick) microwave emitter that decoys missiles. The Israeli upgrade of Mi-25/35 should have added the excellent El/M-2160, though I'm not sure whether this has happened. DJ will probably have better information on this.

Before present Levant War, the most experienced helicopter operator was Sri Lankan Air Force primarily operating Mi-25/35 and Mi-17 against the LTTE.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... _Guard.htm
On one occasion, a formation of Sri Lankan helicopters was fired upon by five SAMs. The three Mi-17s in the formation were fitted with ELTA's system, and escaped unscathed (saving 90 troops and 12 crew) but the escorting Mi-24 had not been fitted with the system, and was downed.


The Mi-17 had El/M-2160 while the Mi-25/35 had L-166 Espanka. For cost reasons, they couldn't fit their entire fleet.

Pakistan supplied Stingers to LTTE in exchange for LTTE ferrying arms to Moro Islamic Militants in Philippines.

There was a detailed write up on SLAF helicopters in the internet on a site called ACIG that is no longer available. Mi-17 bourne troops escorted by Mi-25/35 played a decisive role in many battles.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 03 Sep 2017 19:15

Add to the list people.

Indian Missile and Munitions Programs, as of 2017 wrote:
SSMs
Prithvi, 100-250km range, liquid fuelled
• Prithvi -1/2/3 - all in service
• Naval variant: Dhanush, 350km- Navy - in service

Agni: Have MaRVs, MIRV & countermeasures in development
• 1/2/3/4 - in production/deployed
• 5 - development, trials successful, 5000 km version. SFC user trials pending.
• MIRV development in progress.

K-series/SLBM
• SLBM/B-05: 700 Km range, developed, test bed for K-4 technologies for Arihant
• SLBM/K-4, 3500 km range: test fired from Arihant, presumably deployed. Also the base missile for S3, S4, S4*
• Next steps, MIRV & 5000 km versions

Prahaar/Strike SSM
• 150 km, 200 kg warhead missile to "bridge the gap" between the conventional Pinaka MRLS at 40 km range, to the Prithvi which has a range of 250km to 300 km. Being tweaked for the Army, and awaiting formal Army indent. Stated to have datalinked guidance and will hence be more cost effective/precise than "dumb" missiles. Six missiles can be launched at different targets. Developed from the AAD design of the BMD program.
• Orders not placed as of yet

Pralay/Strike SSM
• Sanctioned in 2015
• Solid fuel, derived from PDV BMD missile, can strike 500km with 800kg payload
• 10m CEP
• Intended to supplement Brahmos with a low cost flexible strike option for the Army

Brahmos:
• Blocks1/2/3 all developed. Block 3 for Navy & Army allows top attack & seeker discrimination of specific targets. In production.
• AF: Development underway; IAF has ordered 200+ missiles for 40+ Su-30 MKI. Two trials aircraft sent for modification. Special MKIs need to be structurally modified for carrying a single Brahmos on centerline.
• Mini-Brahmos: In development to allow upto 3 Brahmos per Su-30 MKI and also Brahmos carriage by MRCA class aircraft
• Brahmos 2: In development with Russia for hypersonic Brahmos.
• Seeker indigenization in progress: Two programs - one for advanced seeker & another for current programs. Both seekers can be used across Indian programs.
• 450km version test fired, 900 version next. All Brahmos missiles will be modified to new standard. Changes required for 450km version "today: software changes to the fire control system and mission computer, and miniaturisation of some hardware elements in the propulsion system."

Nuclear deterrent:
• ALA: Air Launched Article, 200km, nuclear missile for Su-30 force. In development

Cruise Missiles:
• LRCM: Ramjet equipped long range cruise missile for all three services, in development, 700km-1000 km range
• Nirbhay: Subsonic, stealthy 1000km+ missile for all three services, multiple tests. First 2 successful, next 2 unsucessful. Focus on suppliers before retrial. Basic design not to be changed. Also, seeker & propulsion indigenization underway.

BMD:
• Phase 1: PDV & AAD ready for deployment. GOI has given go-ahead and preparation underway.
• Phase 2: For Target Missiles > 2000 km class, in development. AD-1 and AD-2, hypersonic missiles

ATGM/ General purpose:
Nag
• Army land version version under refinement, 4 km range. Block1 seeker in production at BDL, Block 2 developed for better performance in Indian deserts @ afternoon. Tests in 2017. Army orders still awaited.
• Helicopter version @7km, called HELINA, in development. See above for seeker details.
• Further variants for fixed wing strike aircraft under development. RF seeker trialed in 2011-12, presumably for this.
SAMHO/CLGM
• Semiactive laser guided missile similar to the LAHAT. Intended for launch by both ground launchers and tanks. In advanced development, probably in trials as prototypes have been displayed already for couple of years now. Finally, alternative available to Milan/Konkurs as well.
MPATGM
• New program to field an advanced ATGM, similar to the Javelin. In advanced development, tenders placed for specific subsystems. BDL to be partner for manufacturing.

ASM:
• NGARM: New program announced in 2012; in advanced development, trials to be conducted in 2017-18. Dual-stage (DRDO leveraging LRSAM/MRSAM motor knowledge), solid fuelled with 100 km range. Also includes a MMW seeker (for terminal targeting presumably)
• Name unknown: Missile with multiple precision guided warheads, range of 200 km for platform. UAVs variants also being explored to "launch PGMs" and then be recovered for cost effectiveness. Tech demo in 2013, with tests of a configured missile in 2015-16.
• Name unknown: Light antiship missile for naval helicopters: In development, unknown if a formal program is being launched.
• HSTDV: Hypersonic Tech demo program to develop indigenous hypersonic capability independent from Brahmos program, flight trials details awaited
• SAAW - Smart Anti Airfield Weapon: Successfully tested for AF, advanced stage of development. 120kg, penetrator warhead, 100km range, intended for Jaguar, Su-30 MKI and will be extended to Rafale. Winged system. Tested from Jaguar and Su30MKI successfully in 2016. Unknown if it has a propulsion system

SAMs:
• SRSAM: Deal with MBDA for codevelopment yet to be signed, likely stalled given QRSAM progress; reports note range is now 20 km with negotiations concluded with MBDA, only GOI clearance awaited. Trishul development complete but system wont be inducted.
• LRSAM/MRSAM with Israel: LRSAM versions in induction, range likely 90 km (rather than originally expected 70km). Motor, missile components, C3I & TELs from India for LRSAM/MRSAM. LRSAM is for Navy and is on order as is MRSAM for IAF, which wants 9 squadrons with 2 fire units each. Radars will likely be imported with some subsystems (eg TX/RX modules) license made in India & complete set up and calibration done at BEL. IA has also been cleared to ordered five regiments, IA Akash regiments have upto 6 firing units (3 times IAF size). MRSAM IA regiments are stated to have 40 firing units (8 per regiment).
• Akash: MK1 development complete, in production (8 Sq for AF, two regiments for Army); 8 squadron order pending on price negotiation with BEL.
Akash NG in development, active seekers, 50km range with 10 targets engage. MK1S program in development, technology insertion for Akash Mk1 program with active seekers.
• New SAM: New design, with range of 150km. Status unknown.
• QRSAM: New Astra/Trishul/LRSAM technology derived missile with all new configuration (AESA FCR/SR on Trucks for mobility). 30km range, multi-target handling, fire on short stop, track while move. Meant for IA needs but derivative likely for Navy as SRSAM.

AAMs:
• Astra: MK1 variant was to have Range max of 80 km, MK2 of 110 km. Missile was redesigned in 2010-12 and underwent series of trials in 2012, with problems stated to be resolved and complete redesign done. Range now suggested as 100 km+, but remains to be confirmed. Original range specifications were 80 km in head on & 20 km in tail chase. Amongst other new capabilities mentioned are buddy launch, LOBL and HOBs capability (+/-45 degrees). Reports mention seeker integration challenges have been overcome, with new info stating ", improved multitarget handling and excellent ECCM". Trials with Russian seeker complete in 2016-17, IAF has placed LSP of 50 units for production stabilization at BDL. Next trials with new Indian seeker underway.
• Ramjet program underway. In cooperation with Russian, can either be the basis of a new Meteor class AAM or new SAMs.

MLRS:
• Pinaka Mk1: 40km, developed and in production, teething issues with ramping up numbers being resolved. OFB issues with ammunition basically. 2 regiments in service, 2 ordered in 2016. MOD has floated RFP for 6 more regiments. Order may be split between Mk2
• Pinaka MK2: 60 KM range, several successful trials. Guided & extended range.

PGMs:
• LGB: Sudarshan MK1 for AF. Range of 9 km. Project cancelled. Sudarshan MK2 with INS/satnav in development, 50 km range noted in 2012, new design will seek to minimize rolling observed with MK1. Status, unknown.
• Garuda/Garuthma programs: Seeker, satnav, equipped basic JDAM equivalent with 30 km range. Garuthma is the winged version with 100km range. Trialed, in development. IAF orders expected.
• Lightweight PGM program: RCI program. Sathish Reddy: "PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example. "
Will have MMW seeker developed, also being used for NGARM

Last edited by Karan M on 03 Sep 2017 21:44, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2017 19:20

Nice list Karan. Thanks for taking the trouble..

YashG
BRFite
Posts: 186
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby YashG » 03 Sep 2017 19:52

tsarkar wrote:With regards to the Turkish helicopter shootdown, the MANPADS operator was extremely well trained. The helicopter was making multiple passes but he held his nerve and fired only in a tail chase mode instead of head on. Tail chase missiles are difficult to jink off. In the initial part of the video the helicopter was firing its munitions, but this guy held his nerve, waited for the helicopter to complete its circuit and fired at its rear hemisphere.

Secondly, a IR emitter could've saved the situation, however, probably it was not fitted, or switched off like INS Hanit, or simply not working. Electronics fail notoriously.

IN Kamov and IAF Mi-17/25/35 have Russian L-166V Espanka (NATO: Hot Brick) microwave emitter that decoys missiles. The Israeli upgrade of Mi-25/35 should have added the excellent El/M-2160, though I'm not sure whether this has happened. DJ will probably have better information on this.

Before present Levant War, the most experienced helicopter operator was Sri Lankan Air Force primarily operating Mi-25/35 and Mi-17 against the LTTE.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... _Guard.htm
On one occasion, a formation of Sri Lankan helicopters was fired upon by five SAMs. The three Mi-17s in the formation were fitted with ELTA's system, and escaped unscathed (saving 90 troops and 12 crew) but the escorting Mi-24 had not been fitted with the system, and was downed.


The Mi-17 had El/M-2160 while the Mi-25/35 had L-166 Espanka. For cost reasons, they couldn't fit their entire fleet.

Pakistan supplied Stingers to LTTE in exchange for LTTE ferrying arms to Moro Islamic Militants in Philippines.

There was a detailed write up on SLAF helicopters in the internet on a site called ACIG that is no longer available. Mi-17 bourne troops escorted by Mi-25/35 played a decisive role in many battles.

Thanks, very informative post!

And yes slaf must have one of the best asymmetric helicopter warfare experience. Ltte was a very smart operator of asymmetric warfare! Good insight tsarkar

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vasu raya » 03 Sep 2017 21:46

Big list Karan, thanks, guess there is a cruise missile for all three services in the works that has a subsonic cruise phase and a supersonic terminal phase, could be the LRCM, not sure.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 03 Sep 2017 22:06

Karan M wrote:Add to the list people.


My two bits -

Prithvi production was closed 2009 and it will be out of service by 2020. Its missile life is 10 years.

viewtopic.php?t=5077&start=320

Original link is dead

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Mar ... ntpagenews

The Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) — manufacturer of Prithvi I and Prithvi II missiles — had received the Centre’s directive to short-close the production in January 2009, sources told Deccan Herald.

The abrupt closure means the armed forces will be short of 40-odd Prithvi II missiles, as the BDL will deliver only a portion of the original order. Neither the defence ministry nor the BDL authorities have explained the reasons behind the closure.

The PSU was successfully delivering quality missiles systems as per schedule till the closure. The BDL management has now been instructed to finish off the few Prithvi missiles, which are in the last stages, and close the project, according to sources.

The issue was taken up with Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh in Parliament in February. However, the Minister refused to respond, arguing it would be against national interest.


IAF has started to replace its Prithvi with Land Launched BrahMos in 2014.

Image
Image

Note BrahMos complex in Air Force Colours below.

Image

http://www.brahmos.com/newscenter.php?newsid=187
With the induction of the land based weapon complex for the Indian Air Force BRAHMOS has now been successfully inducted into all the three wings of the Armed Forces.


Purpose of IAF Land Launched Brahmos would be take out Pakistani Air Defence sites like AN/TPS-77 radars gifted by US to Pakistan to counter Al Qaida / Taliban Air Force but curiously deployed facing east.

https://www.dawn.com/news/933534

IAF testing Land Launched Brahmos Jaisalmer, May 27, 2016

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 78675.html

The Indian Air Force successfully test-fired an advanced version of BrahMos land-attack supersonic cruise missile today at 1200 hrs at the Pokhran field firing range in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district.

The flight conducted today met its mission parameters in a copybook manner and the weapon hit and annihilated the designated target, officials confirmed.

"I congratulate the Indian Air Force for successfully accomplishing such a complex mission. BrahMos has proved its mettle once again as the best supersonic cruise missile system in the world," Sudhir Mishra, CEO & MD of BrahMos Aerospace, said.

DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher also congratulated the Indian Airforce, BrahMos team & DRDO scientists involved in today's successful mission.


http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... ce/267305/

An advanced version of BrahMos land-attack supersonic cruise missile system was on Friday successfully test-fired in the western sector by the Indian Airforce.


Prahar & Pralay are technology concepts from DRDO. Wont go forward because BrahMos does the job, and unit price is coming down with greater indigenization. Nirbhay too will join the list. Both BrahMos and Nirbhay are longer ranged and more maneuverable missiles than ballistic missiles. There will be further development of Pinaka as well in terms of range & payload beyond Mk2.
Last edited by tsarkar on 03 Sep 2017 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 03 Sep 2017 22:22

Thanks Shiv and Vasu!

TSarkar, yes please keep adding in.

Also, are you sure the Brahmos IAF land units are not supplementing the IAF Prithvi units & no life extensions were done?

Reason being while cumbersome, the Prithvi also has these kind of warheads (http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/dat ... arhead.jpg and http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Speci ... v_9big.jpg)
it will be good against area targets, while Brahmos acts like a precision missile. The Brahmos guys always tout the kinetic energy effect & excess fuel for extra warhead effect, but dispersed bomblets have their own value.

Also about the Pralay:http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/06/13/pralay-indias-new-under-development-conventional-strike-surface-to-surface-missile/

this implies the impetus for the development came from IA & not RCI.

By DRDO standards, Rs 300 crores is a significant sum & the lab would not be authorized that, unless the bigwigs at DRDO HQ were given some sort of firm interest from the IA. Jha notes: IA wants a missile that can carry a significant payload, above Brahmos's 200 kg, to a distance of 500 km at cheaper prices.
Hence my perception the Pralay may end up being ordered by the IA (and perhaps even the AF). Also, the larger payload & munitions capabilities presumable. The PGM mentioned for Prithvi would be a good fit too.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 03 Sep 2017 22:33

Karan, my understanding was the Conventional Area Attack role has gone to Shaurya, as anything under 500 km is considered short ranged with exposure to enemy counter attack. Yes, Prithvi has got life extension to serve until BrahMos induction is complete, however the RFNA propellant isnt very well liked by users.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 03 Sep 2017 22:36

This report indicates things were still in flux by 2016, with Prithvi on the way out but
http://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/g ... ithvi.html

Prahar may not fit the bill but it was arousing interest. Perhaps Pralay may be suitable. I'd really love it if the IAF & IA both had substantial BMs as well as CMs to back up their other weapon systems. Of course there are concerns about destabilization etc but then why aren't our opponents thinking so too, and why should we yindoos always take the extra step to defang our options.

Prithvi, thus, was confined to a conventional role—of striking enemy's logistics hubs and concentrated tank formations with conventional warheads. This role is now being increasingly given to the cruise missile BrahMos. With a range close to 300km, and with declared conventional warheads, BrahMos has been highly reliable, and highly manoeuvrable unlike a ballistic missile. “In the field of tactical missiles, BrahMos is the most effective and powerful missile as it can strike any target 30 to 290km away,” said Sudhir Mishra, senior scientist and chief executive officer of BrahMos Corporation.


The Army is not willing to forgo the extended strike range of 150 kilometres that it got from Prithvi. “It is not just the extended reach, but also the realisation that we need a conventional weapon system to destroy the enemy's tactical nuclear weapons,” said a senior officer. In short, the Army needs a missile that would have the range of Prithvi but solid-fuelled. “Prahar fits the bill,” said an Army officer. Prahar was first tested in 2012 but cold-storaged for a while. DRDO's initial claim that Prahar could carry “different types of warheads” was interpreted in Pakistan as evidence that it might have a nuclear role. However, according a paper prepared for Carnegie Institute by nuclear experts Toby Dalton and George Perkovich, “at 42 centimetres in diameter and with a payload of just 200 kilograms, the missile is exceedingly slim and light and may not be able to carry any of India’s existing nuclear warheads.”

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 03 Sep 2017 22:40

tsarkar wrote:Karan, my understanding was the Conventional Area Attack role has gone to Shaurya, as anything under 500 km is considered short ranged with exposure to enemy counter attack. Yes, Prithvi has got life extension to serve until BrahMos induction is complete, however the RFNA propellant isnt very well liked by users.


I think we have some sort of consensus arriving - the Shourya is not in production either, correct? The main issue with Shourya is its K-series heritage in that to cope with underwater pressures, it carries extra structural weight. But it can tailor its trajectory. Now, if we see Shourya tests, i havent seen multi-missile TEL. So, isn't it plausible the Pralay is the answer to the requirement Shourya would be useful for, but was not fully suited for? Its a solid-fuelled, trajectory shaping missile, with a heavy payload and similar range (500km vs Shourya's 750km) but IA may not have been excessively firm about 750km range..so the Pralay may be DRDO's answer to an IA need for a more powerful Prithvi replacement.
The RFNA is a pain to handle for sure and its fuelling/refuelling involves a lot of complex, safety cumbersome procedure. IAF would undoubtedly prefer Brahmos rounds.

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 790
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Suresh S » 03 Sep 2017 23:05

I liked the list Karan. Tx Tsarkar

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4564
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Sep 2017 23:38

Karan and TSarkar sirs, take a bow. The list should be saved as a primer and regularly updated sticky or Gyan thread once finalized.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vidur » 04 Sep 2017 00:10

YashG wrote:
sum wrote:Sorry could not post initially since on mobile.

Anyways, found that the video is on youtube also:


Brutal demonstration of assymetric warfare. I noticed no chaff too but like someone said pilots didnt know they under crosshair - maws could have helped but do we have maws on indian helicopters?

Also loosing helis to cheap manpads is too costly. I would love to know how do you operate helis in a threat environment where enemy is way more advanced than the mideast militia - since India will be up with their helis in a possible scenario. (Indeed India has some edge with its domestc helis against both cheen and its sidekick)


The kurdish fighter counting sounded just like hindi. I did not know there were language similarities with kurdish. Is it Persian influence in both hindi and kurdish ? Or sanskrit ?

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2602
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 04 Sep 2017 00:15

Karan, Is Dhanush really in service? I was under the impression that it was more of a experiment.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 04 Sep 2017 00:39

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Karan, my understanding was the Conventional Area Attack role has gone to Shaurya, as anything under 500 km is considered short ranged with exposure to enemy counter attack. Yes, Prithvi has got life extension to serve until BrahMos induction is complete, however the RFNA propellant isnt very well liked by users.


I think we have some sort of consensus arriving - the Shourya is not in production either, correct? The main issue with Shourya is its K-series heritage in that to cope with underwater pressures, it carries extra structural weight. But it can tailor its trajectory. Now, if we see Shourya tests, i havent seen multi-missile TEL. So, isn't it plausible the Pralay is the answer to the requirement Shourya would be useful for, but was not fully suited for? Its a solid-fuelled, trajectory shaping missile, with a heavy payload and similar range (500km vs Shourya's 750km) but IA may not have been excessively firm about 750km range..so the Pralay may be DRDO's answer to an IA need for a more powerful Prithvi replacement.
The RFNA is a pain to handle for sure and its fuelling/refuelling involves a lot of complex, safety cumbersome procedure. IAF would undoubtedly prefer Brahmos rounds.

There was talk of removing that excess structural weight for better payload for Shourya. The challenge in converting SAM to BMs is that SAMs have excessive control surfaces and controls that are required for Anti Aircraft / Anti Missile role but not required in Ballistic Missile role. You may be right though that Pralay may combine the benefits. Let's see how things pan out

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Sep 2017 01:06

darshhan wrote:Karan, Is Dhanush really in service? I was under the impression that it was more of a experiment.


Handful of Sukanya class OPVs. At least two at any rate. Allowed IN to get into the triad bijness and operationalize some basic plans of fielding potential strat weapons. Of course real ones are now on Arihant and follow ons.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Sep 2017 01:52

vasu raya wrote:Big list Karan, thanks, guess there is a cruise missile for all three services in the works that has a subsonic cruise phase and a supersonic terminal phase, could be the LRCM, not sure.


Here is confirmation from Feb 2017.

Austin wrote:In interview to Force Magazine latest issue , DRDO Chief Christopher spoke of new missile under development to post some excerpts

In this new project, a booster will lift the missile up, and the turbofan will take the missile to the desired location within 1,000 km. In the final flight stage, we will ditch the turbofan, fly with another engine which will take the missile to the supersonic speed and hit the target. The DRDO HQ has cleared this project already. Two labs — Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) — are involved in this

Confirms the wing did not fully open and caused Nirbhai loss , New test of Nirbhai expected in next 3 month

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19694
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Sep 2017 02:35

Still waiting for details.

" Rudra M-II Air to Surface Missile ", Rs 489 crores for IAF.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 04 Sep 2017 06:22

Karan, sudarshan has been abandoned.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2017 08:16

Vidur wrote:
The kurdish fighter counting sounded just like hindi. I did not know there were language similarities with kurdish. Is it Persian influence in both hindi and kurdish ? Or sanskrit ?

My answer to this question is posted at the link below in the FAQ thread because it is off topic for this thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5745&p=2208487#p2208487

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12335
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2017 10:26

But Whatever it is, in a fight with Pakis, we will need a few thousand BM/CM, to take out critical infrastructure, Airfields, Radars while our Fighters move in with Bombs. Taking out thee main 3/4 airfields of the PAF with a combination BM/CM/Anti Radiation Missiles and lots of Air dropped bombs is critical, so atleats the F-16's are out of action.

Hope we have the critical number of missiles for it. BM with Anti run way weapons, taking out key runways and service runways out so the Fighters can move in with serious bomb loads will bee useful

vimal
BRFite
Posts: 612
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vimal » 04 Sep 2017 10:48

Vidur wrote:
The kurdish fighter counting sounded just like hindi. I did not know there were language similarities with kurdish. Is it Persian influence in both hindi and kurdish ? Or sanskrit ?


OT Here but Kurdish is considered an offshoot or closely related to Iranian so numbers might sound very similar. One number that caught my attention was the number 8. Fighter pronounced it as Asht, similar to how it is in Sanskrit. Also note that in the end they did not go bonkers calling out their creator's name like araps do.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12335
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2017 13:29

Looking at the Cobra shoot down video again it seems a well set trap with 2 videos joined together. The first part is where Tracer rounds are fired from 2 hills on the ground, which gets attacked by the Cobra. the 2nd part is where the Manpad with shooter is hiding while the Cobra has been attacking the positions where the Tracer rounds are originating. I guess Attack Copters are like Tanks, if there is no supporting infantry they become sitting targets.

It also looks like the Pilots were inexperienced in the area and fell into the trap. Given the Ergodan post Coup attempt purge and shortage of Pilots in Turkish Armed forces, it is possible these were Pakistani pilots inducted by Turkey who got downed.

Link to Pakistani Pilot who died in 2012http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/pakistani-officer-laid-to-rest-as-turkish-pilots-body-found.aspx?pageID=517&nID=12162&NewsCatID=356

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 04 Sep 2017 14:11

to me the tracers looked like from helicopter to ground.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12335
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2017 16:58

Look at the very beginning, Tracer is going from down to up. Anther interesting this is about the countdown, once you start cooling the Seeker, I guess the Missile has to be used or the seeker will become useless, so countdown is make sure the Seeker of the missile is properly cooled and readdy to acquire the target.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 04 Sep 2017 18:20

Prasad wrote:500Kg GP Bomb -
Image
...

Image

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 06 Sep 2017 15:23

Russian S-400 Triumf air defence system: India closer to getting game-changing weapon

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/russ ... 41713.html

Moving a step closer towards acquiring the formidable Russian S-400 Triumf air defence system, the Indian Air Force has completed the trials of the missiles, which can shoot down fighter and surveillance aircraft, cruise missiles and drones at the range of 400 kms over enemy airspace itself.

"The field evaluation trials of the Russian air defence system have been completed by the Indian Air Force in Russia and they have been quite successful. The trials were conducted on two separate occasions and it performed to the satisfaction of the users," government sources told MAIL TODAY.


An intergovernmental agreement on the sale of S-400 was signed in October 2016 at the 17th India-Russia summit between President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, which was earlier speculated to be pegged at Rs 54,000 crore.

After the top level negotiations, the deal is likely to cost less than Rs 40,000 crore and may go down even further in the Russian Triumf to give India edge over China tough negotiations on price with the Russians.

The Russian missile system would be used by the IAF, along with the other new air defence systems coming up in the country including the India-Israel joint venture Medium range-Surface to Air Missile system and the SPYDER systems that India recently acquired from Israel.

India has also developed its own air short range air defence systems including the Akash air defence missiles while the Missile complex of DRDO has also successfully tested the new Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile system.

Air defence missile systems which can strike incoming targets at different ranges are deployed in tandem all over the world so that if one misses, there is a backup system to take down the enemy at the other level.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4550
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 06 Sep 2017 15:31

Someone please enlighten me - do we have any ongoing efforts on making our own CCM..?? If not why not...? At least I never seen any. What is stopping us from making a CCM, however primitive it might be in first iteration.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2017 15:38

JayS wrote:Someone please enlighten me - do we have any ongoing efforts on making our own CCM..?? If not why not...? At least I never seen any. What is stopping us from making a CCM, however primitive it might be in first iteration.

Rhetorical question and not an answer here. Why make a CCM if a BVRAAM can do both jobs. The record seems to show that BVRAAM kills have been at CCM ranges anyway

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 06 Sep 2017 15:55

JayS wrote:Someone please enlighten me - do we have any ongoing efforts on making our own CCM..?? If not why not...? At least I never seen any. What is stopping us from making a CCM, however primitive it might be in first iteration.


My take -

1. CCAAM requires higher Pk than BVRAAM because enemy is much closer and you need to kill for sure. That requires high resolution FPA sensors whose technology is not available to India. Even Russian R-73 doesnt have FPA. Germans and British used to source their FPA from US for IRIS-T & ASRAAM.

2. High Speed Actuators and materials used to make them for lighting fast bank to turn capabilities not available with India. By High Speed, I refer to speed at which actuator responds to commands and not speed of missile.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2768
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 06 Sep 2017 18:39

Austin wrote:Russian S-400 Triumf air defence system: India closer to getting game-changing weapon

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/russ ... 41713.html


"The field evaluation trials of the Russian air defence system have been completed by the Indian Air Force in Russia and they have been quite successful. The trials were conducted on two separate occasions and it performed to the satisfaction of the users," government sources told MAIL TODAY.


How many missiles were fired? Let's compare it to number of tests of Akash!

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 06 Sep 2017 19:12

How many missiles were fired? Let's compare it to number of tests of Akash!


May I ask why? Development and Operational testing of a new end item involves going through its envelope in order to not only verify its performance based on demanded requirements but also to develop an understanding of its operational employment. Field trials of fully developed systems however would be structured in such a way so as to go through and verify certain key attributes (or user specific requirements) as specified in the data shared by the OEM/Foreign Nation. Systems can take months to years to go through operational certification..No one replicates that process while buying systems that have already gone through that. You ask demonstrations in certain areas but do not repeat OT. You most certainly could do that, but then you would have to pay for the entire process yourself.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8221
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Sep 2017 20:07

JayS wrote:Someone please enlighten me - do we have any ongoing efforts on making our own CCM..?? If not why not...? At least I never seen any. What is stopping us from making a CCM, however primitive it might be in first iteration.

Oh this is something that I have struggled with for some time. The answer that I have convinced my self with is that it will be taken up after Astra.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1692
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Khalsa » 07 Sep 2017 01:54

tsarkar wrote:Prithvi production was closed 2009 and it will be out of service by 2020. Its missile life is 10 years.


There is beauty in this fact.
Just sheer beauty..... indigenisation, iteration, incremental improvements, feedback loops.

Wonderful..... Just plain bloody wonderful.


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests