Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Mar 2018 09:58

Kartik wrote:One more thing became obvious- the Martin Baker Mk16 ejection seat is reclined, which improves the pilot's ability to handle G loads. Prior to this video, I had not really noticed this. Seems to be reclined quite a bit. Need to find out exactly how much the angle is.

When they started reclining ejection seat with F16, it was 30deg angle. But later its been reduced (I cannot remember what the counter argument was). F35 has 15deg angle IIRC.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2018 10:36

JayS wrote:---deleted--- for now

Thank you. Good job

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Mar 2018 11:41

yes. good call!

Hakeem, May be they were practicing for DefExpo 2018.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2018 12:09

They were taunting me openly. Appearing mostly when I could not see them. Previously also IAF & HAL have been against me by stopping all flying when I am in a good position to watch.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Mar 2018 13:03

shiv wrote:They were taunting me openly. Appearing mostly when I could not see them. Previously also IAF & HAL have been against me by stopping all flying when I am in a good position to watch.

You can use some 'stealth'.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Mar 2018 16:25

Indranil wrote:yes. good call!

Hakeem, May be they were practicing for DefExpo 2018.

Wait, what?? There is flying display at DefExpo?? Don't recall hearing about a flight display ever in a DefExpo event. Could you kindly confirm this with your chaiwala/paanwaala??

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Mar 2018 17:07

There is. Check the website.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Mar 2018 17:55

Thanks, Prasad Garu!! These details were not available when I had checked the website last time around. Hopefully it's Rangachari sir's boys who are doing the display for a change.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 29 Mar 2018 19:16

shiv wrote:
ragupta wrote:In the video all the cables are using same color tape. it would be nice to use color coded tapes to reduce error and make it easier on the assembly Engineers.
In fact they should use colored cables too.
Hope this is introduced with Mk1A. I am sure this will bring down the maintainance time as well.
You believe that HAL does not know this? Or are you saying that you also know what every electrician also knows?

I am sure HAL knows about it, but from the video all the cable looked of same color, so it is certainly not implemented. All that I am saying is, it would help assembly and maintenance when color coded cable along with tag is used. Maybe it is a low priority item for now due to volume and other pressing areas, but this improvement will simplify stuff.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 29 Mar 2018 19:30

JayS wrote:
ragupta wrote:In the video all the cables are using same color tape. it would be nice to use color coded tapes to reduce error and make it easier on the assembly Engineers.
In fact they should use colored cables too.
Hope this is introduced with Mk1A. I am sure this will bring down the maintainance time as well.
And how many colors you propose to be used..??

Those are not mere tape. They are numbers tags. What's the point of using same color tape everywhere anyway..? LOL

Along with tagging, if specific color is used for specific section like Right wing, left wing, fuel, engine, radar etc. it would help. Another thing to check would be length and connector type, these are small things but in the long run will help reduce cost and time. If you are using 40KM of cable, even small things matter in cable management. Add to it specific provisions for cable arm to run cable through and tie will go a long way in helping the overall upkeep of the plane. Running so many cables in such a small space with cramed interior makes it very hard to troubleshoot stuff and for Engineers to work.

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 29 Mar 2018 19:31

Tell All interview with Sri Nirmala Sitaraman good details on tejas and twin engine fighter

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/exclus ... sitharaman

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2018 19:33

ragupta wrote:
shiv wrote: You believe that HAL does not know this? Or are you saying that you also know what every electrician also knows?
I am sure HAL knows about it, but from the video all the cable looked of same color, so it is certainly not implemented. All that I am saying is, it would help assembly and maintenance when color coded cable along with tag is used. Maybe it is a low priority item for now due to volume and other pressing areas, but this improvement will simplify stuff.

Sorry to say but the overall environment of negativity about anything Indian and Tejas in particular is only aided by this "too clever by half" comment which says "I saw a glimpse of a video of cables in the Tejas and they were all of the same colour they should use different colours". This is sweet music to the ears of critics who are always on the lookout for new and clever things to diss India and Indians with and sometimes the most clever, technically educated and observant people among us come up with needless booboos like this to show up some smart titbit that would "improve" things for the Tejas because it is still not there yet. And possibly it will never get there because we will always know just that much more..

In the image below I can see hundreds, perhaps thousands of cables in bundles predominantly of the same colour, certainly every bundle has the same colour. I am yet to hear anyone tell me that Boeing needs to learn how to get its cable colouring right. Mind you - I am a bit sensitive because for too long I have heard loose comments like "scooter helmet", "wearing chappals", "chipped paint may cause accidents" etc. As a people we Indians are so damn smart - every one of us knows more about technical details, safety and aesthetics than the people who actually do the jobs we comment upon. But we never do those jobs - we are always doing something else - but can speak with confidence about the way others do their things

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 29 Mar 2018 19:45

Shiv,
Look at the picture, from what I see, they are sleeves carrying fiber optic strands, that are themselves color coded for easy identification, Color is easier to identify than reading tags to find a particular cable.

Well, I was just pointing my observation rather than trying to be smartass, that you feel I am trying to be. I am sure there are smarter people out there to find the best that works for them. It might work or may not work in the scenario. All that I know is this kind of technique helps in much smaller engineered products, so was just pointing what I saw. did not mean to hurt anyone's sensitivity.

Chill

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Mar 2018 19:55

Wonder if the Tejas can be Fly by Light instead of FBW ?!!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 29 Mar 2018 20:20

HAL to get Tejas key parts from private players.

State-owned defence manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is looking to significantly increase the involvement of private companies in manufacturing Tejas combat jets even as readies for an additional order for about 200 units of the latest Tejas model, government officials said. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has already roped in private players including L&T to make key components for 123 Tejas Mark 1 and 1A light combat aircraft (LCAs) that it is building for Indian Air Force (IAF).

In the long run, HAL plans to play the role of a system integrator with private firms doing most of the manufacturing, the sources said.

With the private sector participation, HAL’s per year production capacity of Tejas is expected to scale up to 24, officials said. Out of 123 combat jets the company is making for IAF, 40 are Mark 1 version and the remaining 83 are Mark 1A version. In the case of the 83 Tejas Mark 1A jets, HAL intends to make use of L&T’s capabilities for making wings of the aircraft, while Dynamatic Technologies Ltd is expected to make the front fuselage, or main body, VEM Technologies the centre fuselage and Alpha Doca would make the rear fuselage, officials said. “We have placed orders (for the 83 Tejas) with these firms, who will make the parts and if they are successful the parts will be integrated,” one of the sources said.

HAL will work with the private sector to make components for the 40 Mark 1jets as well. “This will ensure that the private sector becomes tier 1 suppliers and can ramp up their supply chain,” the person said. HAL is also looking at bringing the private sector to work on Tejas Mark 2 version. “This will be a game changer for the private sector. In this, HAL is looking at being a systems integrator, while the private firms will be the manufacturers. This will increase production,” one of the sources said.

IAF wants to induct 201 Mark 2 Tejas jets, which will have additional capabilities such as better range than the Mark 1and 1A. “The Mark 2 will have qualities like the Gripen and Mirage fighters and will be called Medium Combat Aircraft instead of LCA,”one of the officials said. The order for Mark 2 will be placed once HAL understands what all capabilities IAF wants in the aircraft.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Mar 2018 20:29

ragupta wrote:Shiv,
Look at the picture, from what I see, they are sleeves carrying fiber optic strands, that are themselves color coded for easy identification, Color is easier to identify than reading tags to find a particular cable.

Well, I was just pointing my observation rather than trying to be smartass, that you feel I am trying to be. I am sure there are smarter people out there to find the best that works for them. It might work or may not work in the scenario. All that I know is this kind of technique helps in much smaller engineered products, so was just pointing what I saw. did not mean to hurt anyone's sensitivity.

Chill

It is standard aircraft practice that all cables are marked and hence clearly identifiable.

Even the sleeves are marked.

Cable marking machines are standard issue. Utimately, these cables are mated to male/female plugs and connectors that are idiot proofed so that they can be mated with their opposite numbers in only one way

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 29 Mar 2018 20:32

Vips wrote: IAF wants to induct 201 Mark 2 Tejas jets, which will have additional capabilities such as better range than the Mark 1and 1A. “The Mark 2 will have qualities like the Gripen and Mirage fighters and will be called Medium Combat Aircraft instead of LCA,”one of the officials said. The order for Mark 2 will be placed once HAL understands what all capabilities IAF wants in the aircraft.

So Tejas Mk2 will be shedding the 'light' term. This is very significant as this means there might be significant redesigning of the aircraft going farther than just adding a 1.5m plug. I believe the range will be increased significantly to be in excess of 2000km with a combat radius of around 1000 km. This is a very good development as this means that Mk2 will be in a separate weight category so if in future a need is felt, IAF might still add more Mk1A in addition to Mk2. After this I don't see how Gripen, F-16, F-18 or Mig-35 can find space in Indian arsenal.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 29 Mar 2018 21:28

Requirement - 42 squadron
Tejas planned (324) - 20 squadron at 16/S
Su-MKI - (274) - 16 plus squadron, get 2 more squadron + upgrade.
Rafale - (36 + 36) = 4 squadron.
===
The above takes care of the requirement.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 30 Mar 2018 07:29

So.. the goalpost has already started moving!! Nice!!!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Mar 2018 07:57

Good catch there Dileep...

Plus IAF doesn't know what it wants!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 30 Mar 2018 08:23

shouldn't the 201 of "M(L)CA" be split into 100 LCA MK2 as envisaged and remaining enlarged, that ways the risk will still remain manageable

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 30 Mar 2018 08:26

Dileep wrote:So.. the goalpost has already started moving!! Nice!!!

Yep, this is how we itvity people kill projects from other teams all the time.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Mar 2018 08:27

Damn it!!! Every *MK2 seems to share the same fate. Enlarge the requirement and when the specs are met say it is heavier, this is like bringing in a flyweight category boxer to fight heavyweight category while asking him to remain in weight category of flyweights

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 30 Mar 2018 11:24

I don't think this is the same as the Arjun saga. IAF has in the past very specifically asked for F-16/Gripen/Rafale. As long as Tejas Mk2 stays in the weight category of these fighters and delivers endurance/combat specs of the same range, IAF will have no reason to reject it.

What's new is that IAF is no longer hung up on having a light fighter. It is straight up asking for a medium fighter which has capabilities comparable to foreign options. This is something that HAL is confident on delivering. Earlier, the case was of delivering higher specs in a light aircraft, which is why all the criticism of overweight and not-good-enough were thrown around. This is good as now as the weight category has been relaxed for Tejas Mk2.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 30 Mar 2018 12:01

^^ We thought design of MK2 has been frozen and prototyping will happen now with fund allocation.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Mar 2018 12:13

Trikaal wrote:
Snip,.....
What's new is that IAF is no longer hung up on having a light fighter. It is straight up asking for a medium fighter which has capabilities comparable to foreign options. This is something that HAL is confident on delivering. Earlier, the case was of delivering higher specs in a light aircraft, which is why all the criticism of overweight and not-good-enough were thrown around. This is good as now as the weight category has been relaxed for Tejas Mk2.

Then the engine will need to change from 414 to something more powerful. Like the AL31 or its American equivalent.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Mar 2018 12:21

Pratyush wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Snip,.....
What's new is that IAF is no longer hung up on having a light fighter. It is straight up asking for a medium fighter which has capabilities comparable to foreign options. This is something that HAL is confident on delivering. Earlier, the case was of delivering higher specs in a light aircraft, which is why all the criticism of overweight and not-good-enough were thrown around. This is good as now as the weight category has been relaxed for Tejas Mk2.
Then the engine will need to change from 414 to something more powerful. Like the AL31 or its American equivalent.

Hold your horses boys. Lets not forget, Gripen E is Medium aircraft from IAF perspective...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Mar 2018 12:45

Indeed.

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Mar 2018 12:45

Cybaru wrote:Good catch there Dileep...

Plus IAF doesn't know what it wants!

only reason would be not having a comprehensive assessment of enemy threat perceptions near time and future .. difficult to believe though

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 30 Mar 2018 13:22

JayS wrote: I saw the video until the first part. All credit to Zee for showing this. But I am disappointed a bit. It could have been far better report. The report by local BLR channel last year was much better.

Check the video from 1.05 onwards...

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Mar 2018 14:08

ragupta wrote:
JayS wrote:
And how many colors you propose to be used..??

Those are not mere tape. They are numbers tags. What's the point of using same color tape everywhere anyway..? LOL
Along with tagging, if specific color is used for specific section like Right wing, left wing, fuel, engine, radar etc. it would help. Another thing to check would be length and connector type, these are small things but in the long run will help reduce cost and time. If you are using 40KM of cable, even small things matter in cable management. Add to it specific provisions for cable arm to run cable through and tie will go a long way in helping the overall upkeep of the plane. Running so many cables in such a small space with cramed interior makes it very hard to troubleshoot stuff and for Engineers to work.

Be assured, they would have followed appropriate MIL standard for the wiring and for the people in the trade things are standardized and fairly obvious, even if it may not seem so for outsiders.

Wiring harness is quite a specialized field in itself. Things are not taken lightly.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 30 Mar 2018 14:27

Pratyush wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Snip,.....
What's new is that IAF is no longer hung up on having a light fighter. It is straight up asking for a medium fighter which has capabilities comparable to foreign options. This is something that HAL is confident on delivering. Earlier, the case was of delivering higher specs in a light aircraft, which is why all the criticism of overweight and not-good-enough were thrown around. This is good as now as the weight category has been relaxed for Tejas Mk2.
Then the engine will need to change from 414 to something more powerful. Like the AL31 or its American equivalent.

Why? F-16 and Gripen-E fly with F-414, don't they? Both the aircrafts are considered medium build. Tejas Mk2 just has to achieve similar nos in range, speed and payload which HAL believes would be achievable. The problem earlier was attaining those nos in a light aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2018 14:31

F16 has a bigger engine f100 or f110
Ge and pw supply to parts of the fleet i think
With cft the block52 and 60 must be plenty heavier than gripen

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Mar 2018 15:33

Mk2 is analogous to Gripen E. If Gripen E is medium class.....

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 30 Mar 2018 19:36

Trikaal wrote:I don't think this is the same as the Arjun saga. IAF has in the past very specifically asked for F-16/Gripen/Rafale. As long as Tejas Mk2 stays in the weight category of these fighters and delivers endurance/combat specs of the same range, IAF will have no reason to reject it.

What's new is that IAF is no longer hung up on having a light fighter. It is straight up asking for a medium fighter which has capabilities comparable to foreign options. This is something that HAL is confident on delivering. Earlier, the case was of delivering higher specs in a light aircraft, which is why all the criticism of overweight and not-good-enough were thrown around. This is good as now as the weight category has been relaxed for Tejas Mk2.

IAF baseline was M2k in early 2000s, now they will be getting MK2

they should be happy.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Mar 2018 19:42

M2K to M2K upgrade is mostly avionics. We have heard 100 times that avionics wise, Tejas is the most advanced plane in IAF. If Tejas MK1 gets AESA, some good BVR missile and some decent EW suite, it will be equal/ahead of upgraded M2K

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 30 Mar 2018 20:04

Countries using F-16/Gripen-E do not have Rafale or SU-MKI, so it makes sense for them to have one plane loaded with all bells and whistles. So F-16 engine size, power and load has been increasing, so that should not be a standard for airforce that has Su-30MKI and Rafale. Demanding everything in Mk2 is like making it to the size of Rafale or Su-30MKI with single engine.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Mar 2018 20:26

Vips wrote:HAL to get Tejas key parts from private players.

Why are they talking about Tejas private parts so openly

That aside, this is good work..

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 30 Mar 2018 20:31

Once we have enough Tejas and Rafale, IAF should conduct exercises where Rafale is the aggressor and Tejas is the defender. This will give them a true picture as to how these planes stack up. Maybe 1 Rafale vs 2 Tejas because that will simulate real scenarios more closely.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 30 Mar 2018 21:11

someone had bet on BRF that we will have a sqdn of Tejas before Rafale or any other foreign fighter. If things go well, then we wont be far off from 2 Tejas for 1 Rafale. But sir before that I am very keen on Tejas v/s Mirage/Mig29/21 scenarios, though we wont get to hear about them anytime soon