Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2018 08:29

Indranil wrote:OBOGs integration is about to start. Should take 30 months to complete integration and flight testing.

Mk1a?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 19 Apr 2018 08:29

30 months..?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 19 Apr 2018 09:23

According to "17-Apr-2018 03:00 PM" tender by DEBEL.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby prasannasimha » 19 Apr 2018 09:34

Would take time. Remember even the F22 OBOGS had major issues that required sorting out. It also requires repacking and plumbing other things to fit the system.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 19 Apr 2018 11:09

Cybaru wrote:
Indranil wrote:OBOGs integration is about to start. Should take 30 months to complete integration and flight testing.

Mk1a?

Nop. Tejas Mk2 will have obog.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Apr 2018 11:46

Haridas wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Mk1a?

Nop. Tejas Mk2 will have obog.


Then what are they integrating OBOGS on ? OBOGS ground system works but there is no Mk2 to integrate it on till date. Seems like Mk1A only.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2018 12:22

the f18 family is also struggling with obogs problems.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/03/29/a ... on-issues/

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2018 13:31

How do the Russians and french solve the same problem?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 19 Apr 2018 13:35

Thakur_B wrote:
Haridas wrote:Nop. Tejas Mk2 will have obog.
Then what are they integrating OBOGS on ? OBOGS ground system works but there is no Mk2 to integrate it on till date. Seems like Mk1A only.


They'll integrate it with some existing PV or LSP for trials but OBOGS will go in production with Mk2. OBOGS is in SOP for Mk2 and not Mk1A. The decision to put it on Mk2 SOP is because of the longer development timeline of OBOGS.

Mk1A has only systems improvements over Mk1 FOC, viz AESA, MAR, EW Pod, etc. Aerodynamics-wise it is same as Mk1 FOC standard.

Which is why the talk that if the radar & EW suite are selected quickly and MAR trials completed, then the 20 Mk1 FOC machines can be built to Mk1A standards. The FOC software was delivered by NAL in February and it is presently being tested and certified for FOC hopefully by year end.

Mk2 will have aerodynamics improvements over Mk1 FOC.

Please take OBOGS problems of other aircraft to International Military Aviation thread.
Last edited by ramana on 19 Apr 2018 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 19 Apr 2018 14:16

Cybaru wrote:How do the Russians and french solve the same problem?

Do the Russians even have an OBOGS? pliss to Gookal search and point me to one..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2018 15:50

Deleted.
Last edited by ramana on 19 Apr 2018 19:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 19 Apr 2018 19:39

tsarkar wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Then what are they integrating OBOGS on ? OBOGS ground system works but there is no Mk2 to integrate it on till date. Seems like Mk1A only.


They'll integrate it with some existing PV or LSP for trials but OBOGS will go in production with Mk2. OBOGS is in SOP for Mk2 and not Mk1A. The decision to put it on Mk2 SOP is because of the longer development timeline of OBOGS.

Mk1A has only systems improvements over Mk1 FOC, viz AESA, MAR, EW Pod, etc. Aerodynamics-wise it is same as Mk1 FOC standard.

Which is why the talk that if the radar & EW suite are selected quickly and MAR trials completed, then the 20 Mk1 FOC machines can be built to Mk1A standards. The FOC software was delivered by NAL in February and it is presently being tested and certified for FOC hopefully by year end.

Mk2 will have aerodynamics improvements over Mk1 FOC.

Please take OBOGS problems of other aircraft to International Military Aviation thread.

You have got it right!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bala Vignesh » 19 Apr 2018 19:43

Cant the Mk1A be retrofitted with OBOGS once it is certified??

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 19 Apr 2018 19:50

OBOGS is a complicated system with plumbing.
Will again need to be certified.

tsarkar explained the process.
30 months tender shows DRDO is aware of complexity.

Our problem is we take the latest brochure and demand in our planes when it is still vapor ware on firang planes.
And members with long standing still ask newbie questions.

30 month tender means OBOGs is just a drawing. Maybe a lab model was proofed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Haridas » 19 Apr 2018 20:36

ramana wrote:OBOGS is a complicated system with plumbing.
Will again need to be certified.

tsarkar explained the process.
30 months tender shows DRDO is aware of complexity.

Our problem is we take the latest brochure and demand in our planes when it is still vapor ware on firang planes.
And members with long standing still ask newbie questions.

30 month tender means OBOGs is just a drawing. Maybe a lab model was proofed.

Around 2004 on a domestic flight out of Bangalore had an IAF officer (iirc a Wing Commander) copassanger who was in the OBOG team. When asked about its rediness, he smiled and said it will take many years to reduce size to fit the aircraft and we are many-many years away from flight. Not an easy thing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 19 Apr 2018 21:10

6months for modifications and 24months for flight trials. Clearly this is not the topmost priority and they must have placed the flights in existing schedule. Total only 45 flights are needed otherwise. All details of steps given in tender. Quite a few systems need modification including even HMDS.

PV3 to be modified for flight trials. Other LSPs also involved to some extent.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2018 21:41

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2018 21:42

so L&T is involved

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2018 21:46

Image

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 19 Apr 2018 21:57

At Defexpo Aeromag was hanging out show daily, the day 1 issue has an interview of Dr. Giridh Director of ADA with title 'LCA Tejas to be fully operational with AAR soon' which has a lot of info and updates, will list out some of them

1, currently focusing on increasing the flying rate of MkI to 60 flights every month
2, FOC by June-July 2018
3, HAL & ADA working together to speed up FOC
4, All tests conducted on Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) have been sucessful
5, All simulated ground tests have been successfully completed as Tejas was refueled by placing it at various attitudes on the ground. This was to monitor the pressure at which the fuel is pumped into the aircraft.
6, We expect to make Tejas ready for AAF by end of april
7, Tejas MkIIis in detaildesign stage
8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses. the unmanned version will sport flush air data system technology for stealth features. the design of the front also will be modified. the project will begin immediately after the foc for MkI
9, Many countries like Singapore, Srilanka, Turkmenistan have shown interest in Tejas. Singapore has come forward to show intrest in the trainer version of Tejas for training purpose of air force personal
10, Tejas Navy has completely mastered the ski jump talk-off from carriers, even at night time also... The hook for the arrested landing has been integrated and we are now progressing towards demonstration of arrested landing. We expect to prove careier compatibility by end of this year
Last edited by Kakarat on 20 Apr 2018 00:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 19 Apr 2018 22:17

I am glad the OBOGS is an O2 concentrator system and not a generation system as that could be fire hazard. Most likely a N2 absorption system.

The entire system looks like a hospital operating room Anesthesia system.

shiv your thoughts?


Kakarat thanks for the summary.
So the milestones are very near term.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 19 Apr 2018 22:55

Kakarat wrote:At Defexpo Aeromag was hanging out show daily, the day 1 issue has an interview of Dr. Giridh Director of ADA with title 'LCA Tejas to be fully operational with AAR soon' which has a lot of info and updates, will list out some of them

1, currently focusing on increasing the flying rate of MkI to 60 flights every month
2, FOC by June-July 2018
3, HAL & ADA working together to speed up FOC
4, All tests conducted on Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) have been sucessful
5, All simulated ground tests have been successfully completed as Tejas was refueled by placing it at various altitudes on the ground. This was to monitor the pressure at which the fuel is pumped into the aircraft.
6, We expect to make Tejas ready for AAF by end of april
7, Tejas MkIIis in detaildesign stage
8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses. the unmanned version will sport flush air data system technology for stealth features. the design of the front also will be modified. the project will begin immediately after the foc for MkI
9, Many countries like Singapore, Srilanka, Turkmenistan have shown interest in Tejas. Singapore has come forward to show intrest in the trainer version of Tejas for training purpose of air force personal
10, Tejas Navy has completely mastered the ski jump talk-off from carriers, even at night time also... The hook for the arrested landing has been integrated and we are now progressing towards demonstration of arrested landing. We expect to prove careier compatibility by end of this year


Thanks you very much for the updates.

Bolded part, I think you meant attitudes, not altitudes.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sankum » 19 Apr 2018 23:06

Thanks Kakarat,
Link to the article
http://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/4220205605.pdf

The Mk II is being designed to sport an array of upgraded weapons system along with all sensors and will be capable of carrying all futuristic indigenous weapons. The major thrust of the aircraft will be its ability to carry missiles like Astra and BrahMos. It will have Software Defined Radios (SDR) and all equipment to wage electronic warfare. The Mark II will be much superior in terms of its combat capabilities and will belong to the Medium weight class.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2018 23:08

This OBOGS system's engineering model was handed over to ADA way back in 2010 itself and in 2014 there were news reports indicating that it was ready for trials. So it was no paper project but needed testing and fitment on a prototype before undertaking flight tests. For whatever reason, it wasn't considered on Mk1 or Mk1A and got pushed to the Mk2.

DRDO on 3rd Nov 2010 handed over an integrated life support system (ILSS) for fighter aircraft as a state of the art technology for the IAF’s LCA Tejas fighter aircraft project. ILSS enables a fighter pilot to venture to the limits of the aircraft capability in terms of flight altitudes and G-forces. This technology had hitherto been the hallmarks of the few highly advanced countries. Now Defence Bioengineering & Electro medical Laboratory (DEBEL) Bangalore, under DRDO in association with L&T as development cum production partner, has taken a lead in this technology that, to start with, will go into Tejas aircraft. The engineering model of ILSS prototype has been rolled out from DEBEL Bangalore by Dr W Selvamurthy, Distinguished Scientist and Chief Controller R&D (Life Sciences) of DRDO. The ILSS consisting of 12 Line Replacement Units (LRUs) has been handed over to Dr PS Subramanyam, Distinguished Scientist, Program Director-CA and ADA, for fitment and further trials.

ILSS essentially performs the tasks of protecting the pilots against the extremes of altitudes, severe G forces imposed during the aerial combats and also provide breathing 100% oxygen in the case of ejection from aircraft. The Onboard Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) keeps the pilot’s oxygen status always to the sea level condition despite being at high altitudes. The OBOGS enables the aircraft to undertake long endurance task, free from the burdens of recharging the Oxygen gas. The Demand Oxygen Regulator (DOR) ensures that the breathing gas is delivered as per requirement at various altitudes and also during anti-G straining maneuvers (AGSM) that the pilot undertakes during combat operations. The anti-G valve (AGV) renders adequate G-suit inflation pressure to prevent G-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC). There is a unique electronic control unit (ECU) that ensures proper OBOGS functioning with changing altitudes, monitoring the ILSS and also activates the back-up system in the case of any failure. The ILSS design caters to both single and dual pilot operations.

..
The ILSS at a later date, can also be customized to the needs of other Indian aircraft capable of long duration flights like MiG-29, SU-30, Mirage-2000 etc.[/b]


As per Zvezda, the Su-30MKM and MKA have the KS-129 OBOGS. But seemingly not the IAF Su-30MKI variant which predates these two variants. Not sure about the Mirage-2000I, but it likely lacks it as well. MiG-29K as well as MiG-29UPG also have the KS-129 OBOGS. As do MiG-35 and Su-35.

DEBEL has set up bench testing facilities for the ILSS OBOGS system. So the unit testing of the OBOGS would've been completed by now.

link

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 19 Apr 2018 23:56

Kakarat wrote:8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses. the unmanned version will sport flush air data system technology for stealth features. the design of the front also will be modified. the project will begin immediately after the foc for MkI
r


I missed exact natire of this first time I read, i thought its the same system that ADA was talking for normal AF LCA or NLCA.. Relised only while reading actual interview.

This is excellent news and really exciting. Now they are really starting to extract more from LCA. This project will lay foundation of autopilot for UCAV. This is exactly what I have been wanting ADA to do, use LCA to develop autopilot for UCAV, a la QF16 and I have expressed the idea many times in past. The back and forth tech flow between AURA and LCA will not only reduce development time for the two and improve them both individually but both will contribute heavily towards AMCA. There is a lot of organic cross pollination possible in AURA and LCA and I am extremely happy to see ADA doing it. Good that even GOI has approved the project.

We might as well end up having large number of unmanned LCA eventually. Who knows. After a while LCA production will become quite cheap when majority of set up cost is fully amortized. It may become very attractive proposal. Quite possible.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srai » 20 Apr 2018 01:36

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:At Defexpo Aeromag was hanging out show daily, the day 1 issue has an interview of Dr. Giridh Director of ADA with title 'LCA Tejas to be fully operational with AAR soon' which has a lot of info and updates, will list out some of them

1, currently focusing on increasing the flying rate of MkI to 60 flights every month
2, FOC by June-July 2018
3, HAL & ADA working together to speed up FOC
4, All tests conducted on Air-to-Air Refueling (AAR) have been sucessful
5, All simulated ground tests have been successfully completed as Tejas was refueled by placing it at various altitudes on the ground. This was to monitor the pressure at which the fuel is pumped into the aircraft.
6, We expect to make Tejas ready for AAF by end of april
7, Tejas MkIIis in detaildesign stage
8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses. the unmanned version will sport flush air data system technology for stealth features. the design of the front also will be modified. the project will begin immediately after the foc for MkI
9, Many countries like Singapore, Srilanka, Turkmenistan have shown interest in Tejas. Singapore has come forward to show intrest in the trainer version of Tejas for training purpose of air force personal
10, Tejas Navy has completely mastered the ski jump talk-off from carriers, even at night time also... The hook for the arrested landing has been integrated and we are now progressing towards demonstration of arrested landing. We expect to prove careier compatibility by end of this year


Thanks you very much for the updates.

Bolded part, I think you meant attitudes, not altitudes.

Don’t they have an altitude chambers for simulating various altitudes for ground-based testing?. If not, they could have tested by taking the LCA to Goa for sea level and Leh for higher altitude testing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 20 Apr 2018 01:41

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:At Defexpo Aeromag was hanging out show daily, the day 1 issue has an interview of Dr. Giridh Director of ADA with title 'LCA Tejas to be fully operational with AAR soon' which has a lot of info and updates, will list out some of them

5, All simulated ground tests have been successfully completed as Tejas was refueled by placing it at various altitudes on the ground. This was to monitor the pressure at which the fuel is pumped into the aircraft.


Thanks you very much for the updates.

Bolded part, I think you meant attitudes, not altitudes.


My mistake, Just checked its Attitudes and not altitude
Corrected in my original post

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2018 02:50

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses. the unmanned version will sport flush air data system technology for stealth features. the design of the front also will be modified. the project will begin immediately after the foc for MkI
r


I missed exact natire of this first time I read, i thought its the same system that ADA was talking for normal AF LCA or NLCA.. Relised only while reading actual interview.

It must be an extension of the auto take off of NLCA. The takeoff from terra firma is going to be easier. The landing part will be completely new though.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby srai » 20 Apr 2018 04:27

^^^
LCA UCAV that DRDO talked about some 10-years ago.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby vasu raya » 20 Apr 2018 06:48

Kakarat wrote:8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses. the unmanned version will sport flush air data system technology for stealth features. the design of the front also will be modified. the project will begin immediately after the foc for MkI
...
10, Tejas Navy has completely mastered the ski jump talk-off from carriers, even at night time also... The hook for the arrested landing has been integrated and we are now progressing towards demonstration of arrested landing. We expect to prove careier compatibility by end of this year


Hopefully this gets closer to the carrier based tanker UAV concept with or without EMALS

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 20 Apr 2018 08:03

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:
I missed exact natire of this first time I read, i thought its the same system that ADA was talking for normal AF LCA or NLCA.. Relised only while reading actual interview.

It must be an extension of the auto take off of NLCA. The takeoff from terra firma is going to be easier. The landing part will be completely new though.


Yes, I have seen the details in last AI. But the way Dr Deodhar said it, to me they are on the path to make unmanned LCA, a la QF16. Auto landing and TO is starting point.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 20 Apr 2018 08:20

https://www.boeing.com/defense/support/qf-16/index.page - should be quite useful if they can make it work, but what additional value will it bring barring the cost of a few aggressor pilots ? might be a good testbed for UCAV technology....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 20 Apr 2018 08:22

is obogs a must for long duration missions like 4 hrs of cap or 6 hrs of dpsa ? or can o2 bottles cope?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2018 11:22

Singha wrote:is obogs a must for long duration missions like 4 hrs of cap or 6 hrs of dpsa ? or can o2 bottles cope?

No because such missions have been done by Su-30 without OBOGS. However bogs would have been useful, but diapers were used instead.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 20 Apr 2018 11:42

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:is obogs a must for long duration missions like 4 hrs of cap or 6 hrs of dpsa ? or can o2 bottles cope?

No because such missions have been done by Su-30 without OBOGS. However bogs would have been useful, but diapers were used instead.



Shiv, what is the relationship between OBOGS and diapers?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Apr 2018 12:16

No relationship, Shiv Saar is just pointing out that SU-30 have conducted long range missions without OBOGS. However, no getting around the fact Pilots need adult diapers since fighter plane "cock-pits" arent equipped with Toilets.

One funny thing, I guess with Lockheed Martin having taken the cake with F-22 and F-35 contracts Boeing is free enough to take the QF-16 contract since LM is probably too busy to work on old F-16's it manufactured? I would think LM would be the contendor to work on F-16's built by them.

So in spite of so called shareholder value and corporate secrecy, LM and Boeing work together to keep the MIC going, I am sure there is a ton of stuff LM should have shared with Boeing for Boeing to convert retire F-16's to QF-16's.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2018 12:45

Pratyush wrote:
shiv wrote:No because such missions have been done by Su-30 without OBOGS. However bogs would have been useful, but diapers were used instead.



Shiv, what is the relationship between OBOGS and diapers?

That was a pun on the word "bogs" an outdated slang word for toilet

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 20 Apr 2018 15:43

Shiv is right - endurance is a not just a function of fuel & oxygen but also a factor of physiology and fatigue.

A single LCA does the job that during Kargil took 3 fighters to do - fly top cover with BVRAAM like MiG-29, fly close escort with CCAAM like MiG-21 and drop bombs like MiG-27.

Despite automation, data fusion and AI, that still puts a lot of mental stress on the pilot.

There is a story on BR of a Canberra pilot in 1971 from Agra bombing Dhaka who fell asleep during the flight and drifted over another target than the intended one.
Last edited by tsarkar on 20 Apr 2018 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby tsarkar » 20 Apr 2018 15:58

Kakarat wrote:8,We have received the approval to prove unmanned technologies like auto take-off and landing on LCA for future uses.

This is a great development and the incremental evolutionary approach is better manageable technically, financially & administratively.

Kakarat wrote:10, Tejas Navy has completely mastered the ski jump talk-off from carriers, even at night time also... The hook for the arrested landing has been integrated and we are now progressing towards demonstration of arrested landing. We expect to prove careier compatibility by end of this year

Without developing, testing and certifying control laws for the above regimes, we wont progress developing any Naval fighter. I am happy the team is persisting with the development.



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