Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 May 2018 21:38

Philip, Lets discuss this elsewhere. Not in Tejas thread....

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 04 May 2018 17:58

Any update where is SP10/11 ? Its more than a month now.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 04 May 2018 19:27

ashishvikas wrote:Any update where is SP10/11 ? Its more than a month now.

I completely agree, at least SP10 should have been out last month. I hope, LCAs are rolled out at regular intervals than only during last month of the FY i.e. every March. I hope HAL will wake up to save its reputation.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 May 2018 21:07

At full production rate line 1 is supposed to produce 8 aircraft per year or one plane per 1.5 months. Correct? If it has been a month since SP9, aren’t you guys being a little impatient?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 06 May 2018 13:50

Dont we have half second line online ... I thought this year target is 12 planes.

Nevertheless, as long as Tejas are delivered regularly, we are ok.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 May 2018 23:58

Yes sir, there are two lines. But,

1. The second line has not reached 4 aircraft per year rate yet.
2. The deliveries are not synchronized. You will see deliveries which are clustered together, like 3 aircraft in 1.5 months and then nothing for another 1.5. But, if you average it out at the end, you will see whether the necessary rate has been achieved or not.

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 07 May 2018 00:11

Haridas wrote:
pravula wrote:
You jest, but we did try the same with Marut, didn't we?
In fact the opposite.
Marut was designed assuming using an afterburning version of Orpheus-703, ended us using the standard (non afterburning) Orpheus Mk 703, which was obviously much smaller. So it musharraf could be sewed up to make it more TAFTA

Beautiful aircraft it was.
I recall back ~1972 on Air Force Day airbases will have all aircrafts on static display for close view by family of IAF personell. The aircraft nose would be painted with cost of the aircraft. My recollection is the big SU-7 had price tag of Rs. 98 Lakh, MiG-21 Rs 67 lakh .... those days kerosene costed ~60 paisa/Liter and wheat or rice costed ~Rs 1.50/Kg. Gold was expensive at ~Rs.220/tola(10gms)

Do not recall the price tag for Marut, Gnat and Vampire.

Found the reference.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircr ... ar-25.html

A search for alternative engines for the Marut began. With the help of Rolls Royce and Dowty, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment modified the Orpheus 701 for reheat. These engines were being produced in India for the Gnat. The HF-24 Mk1A with two reheat capable engines was flown and soon an aircraft designated HF-24 Mk1R began its trials. It was intended to match the Jaguar in most respects. Unfortunately, the rear fuselage had simply been enlarged to accommodate the larger diameter engines. This raised its after-body drag to very high levels.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 May 2018 00:16

There are many aero fixes for those kind of problems. Once the engine had been established, these fixes would have been worked out. We did not persevere and we let others dictate our path. After reading and talking to people who have flown both types, I have no doubt in my mind that HF-24 was a better ground attack aircraft than the Jaguar.

But hindsight is always 2020. I hope the same mistakes are not repeated.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 May 2018 12:29

Indranil wrote:At full production rate line 1 is supposed to produce 8 aircraft per year or one plane per 1.5 months. Correct? If it has been a month since SP9, aren’t you guys being a little impatient?

Its the HAL folks who said SP10 will take another month in the video report posted here which was a day before SP-9 flight, more than a month ago. Hence people are getting restless I suppose.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 May 2018 13:17

Indian Stretchable Time JayS!

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 07 May 2018 14:38

POOF

MOD NOTE: If you know its whining and OT, why not go to whining thread and post there..? I am deleting the post, because its tiring for mods to keep moving such posts and keep telling posters to go to Whining thread. Next ime you will earn a warning. And that goes for other posteres too. I suggest you book mark Whining thread in your Browser to keep it handy.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 May 2018 21:38

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:At full production rate line 1 is supposed to produce 8 aircraft per year or one plane per 1.5 months. Correct? If it has been a month since SP9, aren’t you guys being a little impatient?
Its the HAL folks who said SP10 will take another month in the video report posted here which was a day before SP-9 flight, more than a month ago. Hence people are getting restless I suppose.

I know and understand. All this restlessness arises from best wishes. But you, I and everybody knows that Rome and aircraft building capability is not built in a day!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 May 2018 23:07

I think there is no point being impatient. It would be ok if no LCA roles out for first 6 months and then 12 LCA roll out in next 6 months. We should start looking at the calendar only after July 2018. Personally I would be good with 8 LCA is last four months, and will be calm till December 2018.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 08 May 2018 04:06

Why not all 12 in next few months and then I do not have to visit this thread again for a year

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 May 2018 14:50

fanne wrote:Why not all 12 in next few months and then I do not have to visit this thread again for a year

Ha ha! if 12 were rolled out in first six months then this thread will be overflowing with BRFites questioning why not another 12 in the second half. There's no satisfying a jingo, one way or another. Saw this quote by Winston Churchill today which is very apt for a jingo, "A fanatic is one who can't change is mind and won't change the subject".

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 May 2018 21:55

India must not abandon its LCA project writes Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd.)

A closer examination of the embryo-LCA revealed some major challenges, in adapting a shore-based aircraft to fly from a ship. They included lack of engine thrust, a weak undercarriage, requirement of an arrester hook, and need for fuselage strengthening. Undaunted, the navy affirmed its faith in the programme by initiating a development programme and contributing over Rs. 400 crores, as well as engineers and test pilots to this DRDO project. The prototype of LCA-Navy rolled out in July 2010, and its first flight took place in April, 2012.

Very early in the programme, the IN acknowledged the possibility that this project may; (a) either not succeed or (b) fail to meet the timelines required for India’s first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC-1). A conscious decision was, thus, taken that in parallel with the LCA, the navy would identify an alternative aircraft for its new carriers. As the LCA-Navy programme kept slipping, this alternative turned out to be the MiG-29K; which was purchased along with Vikramaditya.

The IAF version of LCA was delivered for squadron service in 2016. The IAF has placed an order for 123 aircraft; thus securing the short-term future of the LCA, regardless of other fighter acquisitions. The LCA-Navy, on the other hand, received a setback when, in December 2016, the IN was said to have ‘rejected’ this aircraft for its future aircraft-carriers. This ostensible ‘volte face’ by the IN appears to have come as a blow to DRDO and the LCA-Navy prototype, having completed simulated carrier take-offs from a specially created ski-jump ashore, is parked in a hangar, awaiting resumption of trials.

The navy had good reasons for its actions, and dejection over the LCA-Navy is misplaced. There was an urgent need to formulate the specifications of the navy’s second indigenous aircraft-carrier (IAC-2), which could only happen once it was known what type of aircraft will operate from it; and the LCA-Navy was clearly far from ready. Moreover, DRDO deserves this rebuke for tardy progress of LCA-Navy, and for projecting unrealistic targets and timelines. While the LCA-Navy may have ‘missed the bus’ for IAC-2, it can certainly remain a candidate for the ski-jump equipped Vikramaditya (in-service) and IAC-1 (nearing completion).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 May 2018 22:53

While the title says Tejas, he means the LCA-Navy plane.

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 10 May 2018 02:25

He seems to have softened his stand compared to last year, when he basically said that LCA Navy deserved to die as ADA failed to deliver it on time. Did he think that ADA would continue its pace of development despite LCA Navy having zero prospects of induction?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 May 2018 02:41

The Vishal appears to be on shaky ground and along with it the 57 carrier borne fighters as well, despite Admiral Lanba’s assurances that there will be no paucity of funds for the latter. In the absence of this, the only option is to get the MiG-29K serviceable to a respectable level and focus on the Naval Tejas. Admiral Arun Prakash - an esteemed and knowledgeable Grey Eagle - is more or less making the argument for a renewed push for the Naval Tejas.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 10 May 2018 03:30

Oh my god, I am rubbing my hands in excitement here Dear Admiral Rakesh.

I still believe, Navy can do a lot by re ordering 4 LCAs including a trainer Mk1.
Without the interest from the customer, the designer and manufacturer will too suffer from loss of focus and drive.

The Tejas Mk2 Navy will not come without the Mk1 going through adoption, modification and operationalisation.

Reading from the Admirals article, Vikramaditya must become the home of LCA TEJAS NAVY (Mk1 + Mk2) Squadron.
The Migs needs to go to IAC-2.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 10 May 2018 19:08

Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability

Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets.
The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.
The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the air force. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.

http://www.ecoti.in/qg7RdY

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 May 2018 20:07

Whatever happened to Uttam, not at all mentioned in that report.

naird · Post by **naird** » 10 May 2018 20:19

ashishvikas wrote:Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability

Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets.
The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.
The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the air force. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.

http://www.ecoti.in/qg7RdY

Uhh - i thought Americans were against this deal and specifically asked Israel to back off. Maybe misinformation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 May 2018 21:08

"super radar" sounds like marketing language

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2018 22:57

Aditya_V wrote:Whatever happened to Uttam, not at all mentioned in that report.

Wasn't Uttam for the Mk2?

Anyway about time they made up their mind. Now that its chosen, the Israeli will haggle for two more years over price.
The choice started in 2016 i.e two years ago.
What unobtanium features they want that it requires two years to make up your mind?
Also if Thales is rejected and its same radar as the RBE-2 for Rafale doesn't it make that suspect?

I think MoD procurement folks know every which way to delay a project.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 10 May 2018 23:09

ramana wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Whatever happened to Uttam, not at all mentioned in that report.

Wasn't Uttam for the Mk2?

Anyway about time they made up their mind. Now that its chosen, the Israeli will haggle for two more years over price.
The choice started in 2016 i.e two years ago.
What unobtanium features they want that it requires two years to make up your mind?
Also if Thales is rejected and its same radar as the RBE-2 for Rafale doesn't it make that suspect?

I think MoD procurement folks know every which way to delay a project.

Shouldn't price be known and agreed as same 2052 has gone to Jags.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 May 2018 23:42

tejas can probably carry a bigger radar faceplate and back end than jaguar.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 May 2018 00:41

No uttam wasn't part of the tender.

It was between Thales and Elta only from all reports. Glad they have shortlisted. Makes more sense given that derby has been qualified and derby-i is in process. Isn't the tender process for price and delivery? So if they are shortlisted, they would have to have penned down the cost of the product and the timelines for delivery.

Let's hope it all gets sorted quickly. Perhaps Indranil can chime in more when the final paperwork is all signed and squared away.

is elta 2052 GaA or GaN?

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 May 2018 01:55

naird wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Israeli super radars set to give desi LCA fighter jet enhanced combat capability

Israeli firm ELTA is likely to shortly bag an order for a new set of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for an air force order of 83 LCA Mk 1A jets.
The Israeli firm appears to have beat off competition from French firm Thales for the contract that has been in the works since 2016. Sources said that advanced negotiations are now on to finalise the contract at the earliest for early delivery of the combat enhanced jets to the Indian Air Force.
The ELTA radar is a derivate of the EL/M-2052 Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) that has also been equipped onboard the Jaguar DARIN III fighter jets of the air force. It has been selected for the LCA program ahead of the French Thales RBE2 radar derivative. Earlier, other suitors including the Americans and Swedes dropped out of the competition.

http://www.ecoti.in/qg7RdY
Uhh - i thought Americans were against this deal and specifically asked Israel to back off. Maybe misinformation.

they were .. but now AESA tech has proliferated .. if not the Israelis the French will sell

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 May 2018 01:57

Uttam was being pushed internally, but frankly Mark 1A is seriously short on time (I am actually worried). It was always Elbit's tender to lose. But once the Jaguar deal was done, the writing was on the wall.

The winds these days do have a salty after taste. And I am sure the good admiral can taste it too. Who knows? He might be instrumental in fanning it too.

All the closet stories from Gaganshakti is extremely good to hear. It's a big thumbs up from IAF. The squadron is doing really well. Ranga and co are an extremely competent bunch, and very motivated. They feel they are part of something special. They know the difficulties and challenges and they are up to the task. The squadron is growing in strength, both in planes and personnel and you will soon hear more good news.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 May 2018 02:25

Beautiful. Thanks IR.

Can you please advise if there is any movement on the Darin III upgrade for the Jaguar? I have lost hope on Jaguar re-engine program with Honeywell.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 11 May 2018 03:08

Yes please, more info the Jag re-engine if possible.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 11 May 2018 03:12

Indranil wrote:The squadron is growing in strength, both in planes and personnel and you will soon hear more good news.

Aap ke munh mein ghee shakkar, aur saath mein gaajar ka halwa.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 May 2018 03:41

Derby Till ASTRA arrives

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 May 2018 03:54

Darin III is on track. The Jaguar that took part in the flypasts at Defexpo '18 was a Darin III.

The re-engining is obvious to EVERYBODY. Par paisa kahaan hai?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 May 2018 05:05

So IR are you basically saying that Naval LCA Mk2 work may indeed be funded or the Naval LCA Mk1 prototype will finally start arrestor hook trials? Anyhow, the very fact that they're even considering the Gripen Maritime for the RFP tells me that the Navy cannot offer the excuse of the Naval LCA Mk2 being a single engine fighter.

Coming to the Elta 2052, this was the radar that was originally envisioned as the Mk1A radar. Then the competition started, with reports that the Israelis were playing hardball, and now with the possibility of losing what might be a billion $ + deal, they may be more amenable to tech transfer, full source codes and support for integration of indigenous weapons.

Could someone please post the original RFP for the AESA radar that was released by HAL?

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 11 May 2018 05:05

Indranil wrote:Uttam was being pushed internally, but frankly Mark 1A is seriously short on time (I am actually worried). It was always Elbit's tender to lose. But once the Jaguar deal was done, the writing was on the wall.

The winds these days do have a salty after taste. And I am sure the good admiral can taste it too. Who knows? He might be instrumental in fanning it too.

All the closet stories from Gaganshakti is extremely good to hear. It's a big thumbs up from IAF. The squadron is doing really well. Ranga and co are an extremely competent bunch, and very motivated. They feel they are part of something special. They know the difficulties and challenges and they are up to the task. The squadron is growing in strength, both in planes and personnel and you will soon hear more good news.

I distinctly remember it was always Elbit, their pre-condition for sale was IAF mounts 2052 on at least two different a/c types. Elta saves money on integration testing and developing a product will have confirmed sale, India saves money for development cost that Thales would have charged plus there is also plan to upgrade currently being upgraded mirages with this new radar and we get to develop this according to our needs from here :

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 749_1.html

"Then, in 2012, Elta sensed an opportunity and offered to equip the Jaguar with its new ELM-2052 AESA radar. This would provide the Jaguar real ability to beat off enemy fighters, even while on its primary mission of ground strike. Says HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju: "I was delighted when Elta offered the AESA radar for the Jaguar. Elta wanted neither development costs nor more time."

Elta's offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF's inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.

This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. "Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too, adding up to 200-plus radars," says Raju.

Aerospace industry experts highlight other benefits for Elta. While bearing the design and development cost of the new AESA radar, the Israeli company would save a great deal of money by having flight-testing done on IAF Jaguars. "Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI is Elta's parent company) and HAL have signed an agreement that says we would partner IAI in developing the improved AESA radar for the Tejas," confirms Raju."

Added Later : Uttam was always targeted for Mk2, Elbit offered their help but we rejected it for Uttam. Good Move IMHO

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 May 2018 07:14

Austin wrote:India must not abandon its LCA project writes Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd.)
While the LCA-Navy may have ‘missed the bus’ for IAC-2, it can certainly remain a candidate for the ski-jump equipped Vikramaditya (in-service) and IAC-1 (nearing completion).

Admiral Koshy, you may be on to something.

Given that the lifts in VIk/IAC-1 can't really accommodate any other bird.
Given that IAC-2 sanction may not happen,

So the tiny elevator might save the day!

The elevator is only designed for 2 birds (Mig-29K and LCA).
Mig-29K may have tons of growing pains and may or may not prove to be useful in long run.
That leaves pretty much LCA-Mk2. Hope the IN and IAF push to make this a medium sized bird as far as fuel is concerned. Weapon load is less of an issue for most use cases (they are certainly getting smaller, smarter, longer ranged and more precise)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 May 2018 07:31

Admiral

Cancelling the Vishal might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the Naval Tejas. The Navy cannot fund & maintain three different platforms --> MiG-29K, Naval Tejas and another carrier borne, multi-role fighter. That is insanity. With the Vishal eons away, the only option for the Navy now is make the MiG-29K work and complete development of the Naval Tejas. This will help in future carrier borne platforms i.e. Naval AMCA perhaps?

BTW, I found something interesting in the RFI document for 110 fighters. Page 61 of the document has a line that is intriguing ---> wing folding technology. Why does the Indian Air Force need aircraft whose wings can fold? To fit in a hardened shelter perhaps? Or is it for something else?

Indranil: Will the MiG-29K eventually work to the Navy's desire or not?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 May 2018 11:13

One wonders when the NLCA will arrive, earlier prototype found wanting.Anyway, these aircraft could do very well whether they're based on carriers or on land.I've been for long advocating a greater role for the IN in air defence of our islands, etc. Both Ru and the Chins have naval land based aircraft too.Like the maritime Jags, the NLCA could take over that role from them, leaving only BMos MKIs and hopefully Backfires, to do the heavy hitting at great range.The IAF will then have extra aircraft to counter the Sino- Pak JV .