Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

nash
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nash » 20 Dec 2018 14:54

Dileep wrote:FWIW, anyone remember what happened on 4th January 2001?

Now.. can anyone speculate what is going to happen on 4th Jan 2019?


that should be Final Operation Clearance - FOC of Tejas MkI.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 20 Dec 2018 16:29

salaam wrote:
Dileep wrote:FWIW, anyone remember what happened on 4th January 2001?

Now.. can anyone speculate what is going to happen on 4th Jan 2019?


2001 - First flight of Tejas.

2019 - First flight of .....



Get out !!
No way, I am cracking open a new bottle

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 20 Dec 2018 16:39

Ardeshir wrote:Shooklaw strikes again.

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/it- ... 181218.htm



Please call him properly as Ajai Shukla because if the following reasons

1. He served in the army and retired as a Colonel
2. I belong to Bharat Rakshak and not Pak def forums where we vent by altering names.
3. We need more people to know the real man and figure the gaps on his reporting and the bias in his head.
4. It would be dis-service to us who spend a large time figuring out the BS in his articles, namely Rakesh.
5. He is a fellow citizen of the republic of India.

Ajai is watched very much and has a high following amongst internet and other journalists.
It would be a welcome exercise to discredit him over the next two years and achieve victory by academic means.

Remember BR motto is
Vidya
Vinamrata
Veerta

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby naird » 20 Dec 2018 16:48

Well Said Khalsa. Google search should pick on BR comments on Ajai Shukla's non sensical articles as well. This is hard work that many people are doing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Pratyush » 20 Dec 2018 17:39

Dileep wrote:FWIW, anyone remember what happened on 4th January 2001?

Now.. can anyone speculate what is going to happen on 4th Jan 2019?


Unless it is mk2 I won't bother to speculate what will happen.

FOC, to me is just date to be ticked off.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 20 Dec 2018 18:41

Pratyush wrote:
Dileep wrote:FWIW, anyone remember what happened on 4th January 2001?

Now.. can anyone speculate what is going to happen on 4th Jan 2019?


Unless it is mk2 I won't bother to speculate what will happen.

FOC, to me is just date to be ticked off.


Saar
The child in me briefly thought Mk1a, just for a second.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Arun.prabhu » 20 Dec 2018 21:00

Wasn't the deal always that LCA was going to get the ELM-2052? I remember something along those lines in either tarmac or broadsword blogs. And IAF would not induct any warplane that is not armed with Meteor missile? What hogwash! How many AAM types do we need anyway? Should we get the American Phoenix as well because...

The good Colonel needs to get his thoughts in order.

Ardeshir wrote:Shooklaw strikes again.

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/it- ... 181218.htm

Equipping the Tejas Mark 1A with Elta's ELM-2052 radar will ensure the fighter never carries the world-beating Meteor 'beyond visual range' air-to-air missile.

The MBDA, the European consortium that builds the Meteor, has repeatedly told the Indian Air Force that it would only fit that missile onto a fighter with a European airborne radar.

On October 26, the ministry of defence and the IAF watched from the sidelines as Hindustan Aeronautics signed two contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries which will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.

The contracts signed were for two major avionics systems that will determine the combat capability of an improved Tejas fighter called the Tejas Mark 1A.

One was for the ELM-2052 'active electronically scanned array' radar, developed by an IAI subsidiary, Elta.

The other was for Elta's 'electronic warfare' system.

Choosing an Elta AESA radar for the Tejas Mark 1A, therefore, rules out the Meteor and, with it, any hope that the IAF will buy the Mark 1A in significant numbers.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 20 Dec 2018 21:28

Came out of the fact that HAL decided to go the tender-route after price escalation by the Israelis apparently.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby titash » 20 Dec 2018 21:31

Khalsa wrote:
Ardeshir wrote:Shooklaw strikes again.

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/it- ... 181218.htm



Please call him properly as Ajai Shukla because if the following reasons

1. He served in the army and retired as a Colonel
2. I belong to Bharat Rakshak and not Pak def forums where we vent by altering names.
3. We need more people to know the real man and figure the gaps on his reporting and the bias in his head.
4. It would be dis-service to us who spend a large time figuring out the BS in his articles, namely Rakesh.
5. He is a fellow citizen of the republic of India.

Ajai is watched very much and has a high following amongst internet and other journalists.
It would be a welcome exercise to discredit him over the next two years and achieve victory by academic means.

Remember BR motto is
Vidya
Vinamrata
Veerta


Khalsa-ji...agree broadly. No reason for us to vent when the DRDO and IA act with restraint in the face of relentless media persecution.

I will shelve my (already started) article "Ajai Shukla ko gussa kyon aata hai" :D

But it should be noted that:
1) Col. Shukla came out with an article a few years back in 2015 titled http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2015/10/cutting-edge-israeli-radar-wins-air.html

There is ZERO mention of the IAF's demand for a Meteor unless he goes back and edits that article. If you do a Ctrl-F, there is no "meteor" anywhere in that article. So much for his latest rants on "Why Israeli radar"...Dude, you proudly announced it a few years ago as breaking news :D

Also, it was Elta's pre-condition (a deal sweetener as per HIS OWN article) that the LCA must also get the EL/M-2052 if the Jaguar upgrade was going to get it at all.

Cutting edge Israeli radar wins air force approval for Tejas fighter

Israeli AESA radar for Jaguar, to be upgraded for new Tejas

By Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bengaluru
26th Oct 2015

The Indian Air Force (IAF), after years of opposing the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), now accepts it is on track to be a world-class light fighter.

The specifications of the new Tejas --- termed “Standard of Preparation – 2018” (SoP-18) --- were agreed in New Delhi on September 23, between the air force and the Tejas’ designers and manufacturers. One hundred SoP-18 Tejas fighters will join the IAF, starting 2018-19.

The key battle-winning capability in the SoP-18 Tejas is “active electronically scanned array” (AESA) radar that Israel will develop jointly with India. This was the clincher that made the IAF agree to buy 100 SoP-18 fighters from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), in addition to the 20 Tejas Mark 1 already on order.

HAL also undertook to equip the SoP-18 Tejas with air-to-air refuelling, a “self-protection jammer” (SPJ) under the fighter’s wing, and to refashion the layout of internal systems to make the fighter easier to maintain. Yet, it was the AESA radar that conclusively grabbed the IAF’s attention. No Indian fighter has this capability yet; nor does any fighter with Pakistan or China.

AESA radar enjoys key advantages over conventional “mechanically steered” radar. In the latter, the antenna is moved manually to let the radar beam scan the sky for enemy targets. In AESA radar, the beam moves electronically, switching between multiple targets so rapidly that it effectively scans them simultaneously, even when they are located far apart --- in the air, on sea, and the ground. By switching its beam rapidly, the “multi-tasking” AESA radar can simultaneously track enemy aircraft, guide missiles to those targets, and jam enemy communications and radar. In modern-day aerial combat, AESA radar would be a key difference between defeat and victory.

Since India’s Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) cannot yet miniaturise airborne radar for a fighter’s nose (it has built a larger radar for airborne early warning and control aircraft), the Tejas fighter was equipped with the EL/M- 2032 radar, bought from Israeli company, Elta.

The impending replacement of this manual radar with Elta’s ELM-2052 AESA radar illustrates the symbiosis between Israel’s high-tech defence industry and India’s equipment-hungry military, and how each sustains the other.

Business Standard first reported the IAF’s decision to order 100 improved Tejas Mark 1A fighters (August 13, “With Tejas Mark II years away, HAL asks air force to buy Tejas Mark 1A”, and October 2, “Parrikar cuts Gordian knot to boost Tejas line”). Now, from HAL Bengaluru, comes this account of how Elta’s ELM-2052 AESA radar was chosen.

The decision stems from the IAF’s on-going plan to refurbish its 123-aircraft Jaguar fleet, upgrading those six squadrons of deep penetration strike aircraft to continue in service for another 15-20 years. This involves spending $2 billion (Rs 13,000 crore) on new, more powerful engines (the Honeywell F-125N has been chosen); upgrading 61 Jaguars with HAL’s vaunted DARIN-3 navigation-attack system, and arming the fleet with lethal, smart munitions like the Textron CBU-105 “sensor-fuzed bombs” that India bought from the United States in 2010.

Then, in 2012, Elta sensed an opportunity and offered to equip the Jaguar with its new ELM-2052 AESA radar. This would provide the Jaguar real ability to beat off enemy fighters, even while on its primary mission of ground strike. Says HAL Chairman, T Suvarna Raju, “I was delighted when Elta offered the AESA radar for the Jaguar. Elta wanted neither development costs, nor more time.”

Elta’s offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF’s inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.

This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. “Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too, adding up to 200-plus radars”, says Raju.

Aerospace industry experts highlight other benefits for Elta. While bearing the design and development cost of the new AESA radar, the Israeli company would save a great deal of money by having flight-testing done on IAF Jaguars.

“Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI is Elta’s parent company) and HAL have signed an agreement that says we would partner IAI in developing the improved AESA radar for the Tejas”, confirms Raju.

Defence ministry sources say the agreement specifies that 60 per cent of the new radar, by value, would be manufactured in India.

The Elta proposal is typical of how Israeli defence companies do business, explains a senior HAL manager. The Israeli Air Force operates US-built F-15 and F-16 fighters, which come fitted with US-designed AESA radar. All this comes to Israel free, as US military aid to a crucial ally. That leaves little space in Israel’s military inventory for equipment built by domestic companies like Elta. Yet, the Israeli government insists on nurturing its defence industry, in case the pipeline from Washington ever shuts.

“To stay in business and to fund high-tech R&D, Israeli defence companies like Elta rely heavily on sales to India, particularly the IAF”, says aerospace expert, Pushpinder Singh.

Illustrating Israeli capabilities, the Tejas Mark I was already armed with an all-Israeli combination of the Elta EL/M-2032 radar, the Derby and Python air-to-air missiles, and a data link that digitally interconnected these. Indian test pilots say this was a “world-class” air-to-air combat configuration. But now, the Elta-HAL AESA radar could make the Tejas a more capable air-defence fighter.

(Tomorrow: Part II: Improved Tejas to add range and electronic warfare ability)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 20 Dec 2018 23:17

Uttam has to better Elta. Better ahead thinking than getting shuklawed at integration time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vips » 20 Dec 2018 23:23

Tejas did a Fuel Drop Tank test (1200 Litres) this week. Sloshing/Vibration test done per US air force standards (whatever that means). Fatigue and Fracture testing Laboratory, CSIR structural engineering research center were involved in addition to ADA/HAL. This is per a AV which is broadcasted everyday by a defence group.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 20 Dec 2018 23:31

SaiK wrote:Uttam has to better Elta. Better ahead thinking than getting shuklawed at integration time.


Uttam has been a mystery. It was suppose to be integrated, but he don't hear about test flights.

Then LRDE then brings out a RFP for tech transfer. Very peculiar.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby fanne » 21 Dec 2018 04:47

Bottom line LCA was started to bring India on par in many areas such as
1. Plane design (checked, but world has moved to stealth, where we are again left behind)
2. Fly by Wire system (check - we have ported LCA system to other planes)
3.Glass Cockpit (check, it is a moving target and we are there)
4. A 4th gen software driven plane (Check, Our own mission computer - System Integration - A real integrated system of Radar/IR/Laser/RWR should be next step)
5.Composites (check, We were in fact pioneer in this field, ahead of fatherland even, need to further improve)
6.Industrial Base to get modern plane manufactured with modern technology(Almost there, tolerance @ first world level, with private players in the mix and hopefully a private line for Tejas, this can be checked)
7.Engine (Failure)
8.Radar (Failure, but Uttam with Astra and our own EW system, we can check this in few years).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 08:05

Since Elta was in competition with Thales for the radar for the Tejas Mk1A, and if Elta had the cheaper offering...then as per DPP-2013, they have to go for Elta onlee. I am surprised that Ajai Shukla - who is a stickler for rules on DPP with regards to the Rafale purchase - is missing this key fact. He whines about everything in the Rafale deal.

Moral of the Story - Damned if you do and Damned if you don't. The Modi Govt cannot do anything properly and only he knows the right path. Perhaps he should put himself as the Congress Party's candidate for Defence Minister in the 2019 elections.

Why is Shukla whining about the Meteor on the Tejas anyway? The Meteor is quite expensive and will likely be used against high value targets like AWACS. I do not see how the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A can be used in an AWACS killer role. It just does not have the legs for it. Please correct me if I am wrong. For other BVR engagements, the R-77 will be used. Not to mention the Astra Mk1 is available and the in-development Astra MkII will be coming as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gyan » 21 Dec 2018 10:28

Anyone remembers the controversy he created about EJ200 Engine Vs GE 414
T-72 upgrade Vs Arjun
Then Arjun Vs T-90

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2018 12:36

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/opi ... what-price

around $3 million USD per meteor plus more for support pkg over lifetime. I doubt we will buy more than 100 which itself will cost $400 million for sure. so only Rafales will get it as pre-integrated. MBDA & NIIP are unlikely to bless the gandharva vivah of meteor with Bars radar and the su30mki lacks the midcourse datalink for meteor as well.

no meteors on tejas for sure. astra1 and astra2 is more than enough for tejas mission profiles. if and when we develop our own, then it will have.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 21 Dec 2018 13:04

National herald. Let lapdogs throw muck. Use mouthpiece to sound reasonable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 21 Dec 2018 13:08

Another rubbish article by Mohan Guruswamy. Best ignored.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 21 Dec 2018 13:12

ASTRA versions will be quite good and will be at par with any israeli or russian product, which is saying a lot !
Given that they will be made in india, use and maintenance will be carefree
Isn't Meteor too big for the LCA anyways?
It can't be slung under the fuselage, as the rear landing gear will get in the way
It is too large to be under the delta wings, except in the centermost wing station, where they might need to put a fuel tank as well

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2018 13:15

May be rubbish article, but see the cost of AAM's like Aim 120D. We must be saving a huge amount in producing local Astra's. Engine , Radars etc are no longer cheap and cost multi million dollars these days

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 21 Dec 2018 13:27

Jan 2019: No first test of anything.
The only thing on the horizon is the MK1A

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby mody » 21 Dec 2018 15:20

Astra and Astra MKII is the way to go for Tejas MK1 and MK1A. The fear that I have is that it may turn out to be Derby and Derby-ER instead.
Derby has been tested and will be used with the MK1. However, post FoC, as the Astra finishes the LSP stage and enters the SP stage, it should be integrated with Tejas pronto. I guess this can happen by middle of next year.
This will give enough confidence to wait for Astra MK2 and not fall for Derby-ER.
The NGARM already has a dual pulse rocket motor. The design is ready and tested. The same can and most likely will be the basis of Astra MK2. Don't know if the seeker will be updated or not. Maybe if the diameter of the missile is bigger then Astra MK1, then a larger seeker might be developed.

I think the other main feature will be a mid course guidance data link. Not sure if Astra MK2 is slated to have one, but I suppose it should have a data link for mid-course guidance and for this, it will have to talk with the Elta 2052 radar. Don't know if the Su-30MKI or the Mig-29UPG radars are capable of providing midcourse guidance to a BVR missile through a datalink. There have been no updates on the development of Astra MK2. Hopefully it is going on and on track. Maybe KaranM or other gurus can update.

Uttam will work with both Astra-1 and 2. The main weapon though can be the SFDR, our very own version of Meteor.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 21 Dec 2018 23:24

Gagan wrote:Jan 2019: No first test of anything.
The only thing on the horizon is the MK1A


Let me take a shot at it, since the suspense is killing me.

Its either FOC or Uttam flying....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 21 Dec 2018 23:28

My guess would be FOC as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pushkar.bhat » 21 Dec 2018 23:50

My guess FOC plus flight with the rejuvenated Kaveri.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 23:54

^^^ Saar, Kaveri is supposed to be ready as per Snecma, prior to Aero India 2019. Let us see.

But I doubt it would a Kaveri-powered Tejas flight. That would be awesome though, if it happens.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2018 00:02

I think, we should not confuse ourselves on the planned vs actual timelines of deliverables. There are issues here, and we all know about ourselves very clear on this issue.

Uttam was planned for Mk2, hence on LSP-2 which also carries the indiski F414 as test bed for Mk2. So, any news from LSP2, and thereof is Mk2 dhaaga material.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JTull » 22 Dec 2018 00:03

Vips wrote:Tejas did a Fuel Drop Tank test (1200 Litres) this week. Sloshing/Vibration test done per US air force standards (whatever that means). Fatigue and Fracture testing Laboratory, CSIR structural engineering research center were involved in addition to ADA/HAL. This is per a AV which is broadcasted everyday by a defence group.


Not Tejas but a specially built test rig. This is part of qualifying it for 3000 hours of flight time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 22 Dec 2018 00:10

LSP2 has F414? That is news for me! Without modifying the air intake?

I knew we had got couple of F414s, did not know they were integrated as well.

It will have more power to feed Uttam as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2018 00:40

maaf! boo boo. it was for the IN20 version (between cup and lip, slip ho gaya) :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 22 Dec 2018 00:50

Actually it would not be a bad idea to have one of the lsp modified and integrate with F414. Will be a good learning curve for MK2.

I guess priorities.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2018 01:22

having the dimensions and 414 weighing less than 404, yes. it is all the question of handling the extra 2k lbs mil.thrust. the g limits can be really tested. It is all CLAW anyways (improved FADEC guided).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 22 Dec 2018 03:31

I am guessing either FOC or a proto flight with Uttam. FOC more likely as Dileep alluded to 2001 etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 22 Dec 2018 04:19

Karan M wrote:I am guessing either FOC or a proto flight with Uttam. FOC more likely as Dileep alluded to 2001 etc.

Why does Dileep ji not allude to things more explicitly? :cry:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 22 Dec 2018 05:23

I hope they paint one of the jet in TD white and fly in AI19.

Perfect tribute to the first flight, on achieving FOC. :D

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Dec 2018 05:55

Gyan wrote:Anyone remembers the controversy he created about EJ200 Engine Vs GE 414
T-72 upgrade Vs Arjun
Then Arjun Vs T-90



I think he is a foil for MoD interests who want to throw a spanner in re-armament program.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Dec 2018 05:59

Indranil any ECD for gun firing by Tejas?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Gagan » 22 Dec 2018 07:58

It could be any one of the many things that seem to be coming together at this time.
1. It could be Tejas Mk 1 FOC
2. It could be the first flight of a Tejas MK1a prototype
3. It could be an F-414 equipped LSP - meaning the first flight of the Mk 2 in some form
4.GTX-Kaveri related news? Flight tests needed? Although, DRDO Chief S. Christopher had tweeted that Kaveri powered LCA will fly in Aero India 2019, which means a test flight might be around the corner.

Other projects - Aura, AMCA are not in the prototype stage AFAIK yet

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 22 Dec 2018 09:20

First flight of Tejas Mk1A prototype? How is that possible with no prototype even having been assembled?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 22 Dec 2018 10:01

I’m hoping it’s high-speed taxi trials with the Kaveri.

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