Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Dec 2018 10:23

Dileep Saar bowled a googly on us all

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2018 22:21

PratikDas wrote:I’m hoping it’s high-speed taxi trials with the Kaveri.

A year back ....

DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher in 2017 had said that LCA-Tejas will fly with Indo-French Kaveri engine by 2019 Aero India
Kaveri engine reportedly will be able to generate 88.9 kN to 99 kN of Thrust with afterburner .

if you are right.. it is more than lungi dance.

But my best guess is Uttam.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 23 Dec 2018 05:33

Indeed Dileep has bowled a googly here. Suspense till 4th (rehamkar yaar) . FOC is a bit of a 'meh' now after the repeated postponements and the knowledge that it is very, very close.... 4th Jan or 4th Feb or March, will not make a difference to any of the parties most affected. Since Jan 4, 2001 had to do with a first flight, which was a test flight, my money is on lca+kaveri

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 23 Dec 2018 10:31

Dileep, what is the expected output rate /yr, after FOC?

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 23 Dec 2018 10:37

In last 40 years , perhaps a very rare FOC for a MRCA (in my books Tejas Mk1 is indeed a MRCA) without a single aircrash.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 23 Dec 2018 12:04

So many possibilities:-

Uttam radar
Kaveri engine
Gun firing
FOC
LCA trainer from SP series
Astra launch, NGARM Launch
MKIA, unlikely
MK-II, unlikely

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 23 Dec 2018 14:42

Pratyush wrote:
Dileep wrote:FWIW, anyone remember what happened on 4th January 2001?

Now.. can anyone speculate what is going to happen on 4th Jan 2019?
Unless it is mk2 I won't bother to speculate what will happen.

FOC, to me is just date to be ticked off.

Nyet. It's an important milestone. A very important one. If it happens and when it happens, we as a nation need to celebrate our technological achievements.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Dec 2018 14:52

Haridas wrote:In last 40 years , perhaps a very rare FOC for a MRCA (in my books Tejas Mk1 is indeed a MRCA) without a single aircrash.

That too for a nation with no previous experience of developing a FBW control laws.

People don't realize what a achievement it is.

We are the only nation to send a satellite to Mars and develop a 100% safe FBW... on first attempt.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Dec 2018 20:08

It is FOC of MK1, and it is no trivial thing, at least in my mind. The date is all but announced, since many papers need to be made in quintiplicate, signed, sealed etc. Given the system, even WO Mathukutty or UD Clerk Kuriyepe can stop the thing.

So, keeping fingers crossed onlee.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2018 20:18

uttam radar will be another strategic milestone as it will help us gain mastery over the compact form factor challenges of aesa tech

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Dec 2018 20:45

Uttam is still stuck with the infighting "let the bhaiya die.. I want to see the bahu cry" attitude.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Dec 2018 22:20

Dileep wrote:Uttam is still stuck with the infighting "let the bhaiya die.. I want to see the bahu cry" attitude.

Not surprised. LRDE could not get a airborne platform to test since 2017 should tell us the story. 2052 RFP indicates, HAL wants to license produce it. So we have created a competitor to Uttam. That explains why LRDE floated a RFP for Uttam's TOT. It is not getting a LCA LSP to test it.

The loss of Su57, means HAL does not get a 5th Gen, while ADA gets to do it's baby AMCA. Moreover, it is looking out for private partner.

HAL doesn't want AMCA to succeed, with ADA getting the glory... while MOD as usual watches on the sideline.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Dec 2018 22:35

Singha wrote:uttam radar will be another strategic milestone as it will help us gain mastery over the compact form factor challenges of aesa tech

Actually our X band TRM packaging is quite good. Uttam looks smaller than Chinese LETRI and 2052, however the number of TRM in the longest row: LETRI (28), Uttam(32), 2052(34).

This by the way using the Quad TRM plank. We have 6 & 8 as well. We are definitely closer to Yehudis on this one.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2018 23:58

But in a dog eat dog setup like dileep outlined does it have any hope against hal job clout ?

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Dec 2018 00:08

I don't expect Uttam to go on to Mk1/A version. It might be on Mk2, but then who knows. It is highly software driven, so need lot of testing and good GSQR from IAF.

If ADA has full control over AMCA production partners, then we might see something like what this blog is saying

A ultra wide band airborne radar.

https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/11/is ... -amca.html

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Dec 2018 02:26

Aug 18

The flight qualification test for Uttam AESA project has been completed; while the flight test is still pending, advanced discussions are going on with ADA and DRDO. All the MMICs used in Uttam project have been done by Astra.

http://ws.karvyonline.com/viewdocument. ... ntID=22512

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 24 Dec 2018 04:45

I think we should force a 8 per LCA plane private line competitor for HAL. It will do a world of good to us. HAL has played mischief too many times with national priorities (using its monopoly)

1)Delayed LCA adoption - to busy with its trainer project that no one wanted
2)Now quoting price of LCA that makes is costlier than it's weight in gold
3) Similar non cooperation with GTRE on engine (not that GTRE was any better)
and many more

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Dec 2018 09:33

Uttam performed well on the pedestal. Actually, even ADA guys agree that it is a good product. It is definitely 'in class' of the current 2032 based one.

I think once FOC is out of the way, the LSPs won't be that busy, so they will have to release for flight test.

Formal FOC will tie a lot of loose ends. Anyone who done the 'transfer to production' of a complex hardware would know that. So, the rate of production will improve a lot.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2018 09:53

yes, even for pure sw products, the last 10% is very hard to tie loose ends and make it production ready. some rare edge case failures always come at last minute esp on friday evening as people are sliding away for weekend.

writing updated and good documentation is also a art form. the old motorola and now intel have really good documents. cisco is usually outdated cut and paste templates from similar products long ago with patchwork changes. there are a ton of errors and missing stuff. i remember once thrashing a doc writer who wanted to push out the same old crap. sat down with her and made sure it got a MLU of 20 yrs.

aerospace has to be really good in user docs and support. Murican friends charge a lot for the 'support package and documentation' attached to any purchase like harpoon / c130 / c17 / guardian

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Dec 2018 10:39

Well, user doc is one thing. The real problem is manufacturing documents. You can easily make an assembly drawing by exploding the 3D and labeling the parts. It takes a lot of 'sama-daana-bheda-danda' process to get to a point where it becomes a useable document.

Consider this logic: If you add a detail, it will become subject to configuration management and hence traceable forward and backward. Why the hassle?

How can you beat such logic?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Dec 2018 11:26

Dileep wrote:Well, user doc is one thing. The real problem is manufacturing documents. You can easily make an assembly drawing by exploding the 3D and labeling the parts. It takes a lot of 'sama-daana-bheda-danda' process to get to a point where it becomes a useable document.

Consider this logic: If you add a detail, it will become subject to configuration management and hence traceable forward and backward. Why the hassle?

How can you beat such logic?

This kind of mentality comes from lack of appreciation for MFG engineering.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Dec 2018 11:58

It comes from a why bother mentality. My previous organization also had some engg folks located abroad who didn't bother sweating the small stuff, till customer complaints escalated and they had to sweat it. And mark each item in the engineering manual. If anyone else brought it up, he/she would be given a lecture on how they were wasting engineerings time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2018 12:05

OT but since its holiday time I hope to be cut some slack. everything depends on human attitudes and plans eventually anyway

We fired our top talent. Best decision we ever made.
https://medium.freecodecamp.org/we-fire ... 0a99728fde

I am sure all of you have seen such people at one job or another. my previous product has been destroyed by one such man , and is continuing in that mode with none able or willing to bell the cat.

anatomy of a ....
https://medium.com/s/company-culture/yo ... a4f801b9f5

why good people become evil bosses
https://medium.com/s/company-culture/br ... e7a25835ca

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 24 Dec 2018 22:18

nam wrote:I don't expect Uttam to go on to Mk1/A version. It might be on Mk2, but then who knows. It is highly software driven, so need lot of testing and good GSQR from IAF.

If ADA has full control over AMCA production partners, then we might see something like what this blog is saying

A ultra wide band airborne radar.

https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/11/is ... -amca.html

I can claim some expertise of Vivaldi Tapered Slot antenna. Have 2 patents on a configuration that is pseudo isotropic in all 3 axis, when using discrete orthogonal polarized radiation.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Dec 2018 01:41

Singha, at times I wish we had GDF to discuss posts like yours. Not sure whether this is the real issue here but the stuff you point out is completely true in the corporate world. Toxic jokers tolerated by bosses who want an easy ride, and the toxic jokers do everything they can to destroy the larger team so they remain indispensable.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Dec 2018 03:32

Well, if it is not Uttam, then "Formal FOC" is safe bet DileepO. Other possibilities include bringing out the frozen design of Mk2.

The provisional DAL (Drawing Applicability List) for FOC fighters were released in October, 2017, and the amended one in August, 2018. DAL is the standard of preparation for production that forms the basis for the final product to be delivered to the customer...

HAL says that the first FOC fighter (SP-21) will fly out by October, 2019. It is hopeful of creating a new benchmark by delivering 16 aircraft during 2019-20 fiscal.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Dec 2018 07:42

Just seeing all the flurry of posts here about speculation on what might occur on or around Jan 04, 2019...I am reminded (eerily) of this article in March of 2016 from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Back in the 1990s, the then CEO of Lockheed Martin told India to not bother with the Tejas, as it will not even fly!

Now they want to build a F-16 production line in India and export F-16s to the rest of the world!

May the Tejas program continue to Bash on Regardless! Seeing the success of the Tejas makes us all very proud, but it also makes many folks very uncomfortable.

Troubles, They Come in Battalions: The Manifold Travails of the Indian Air Force
http://carnegieendowment.org/2016/03/28 ... -pub-63123

by Ashley J Tellis

The IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach. It should be CAUTIOUS about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond SIX squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available. India should also REASSESS the decision to develop the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft indigenously and avoid weakening the collaboration with Russia on the PAK-FA program.

Indian policymakers must especially guard against the TEMPTATION to prioritize indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF’s able pilots with the best fighters available.

titash · Post by **titash** » 25 Dec 2018 12:34

Well said Rakesh. At the end of the day, self-belief counts for something in the story of civilizations.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 25 Dec 2018 14:53

In a separate note, idrw had copied the comment that Tejas completed foc without a crash

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 25 Dec 2018 18:51

titash wrote:Well said Rakesh. At the end of the day, self-belief counts for something in the story of civilizations.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

In my business we say get the competition interested in what you are doing, then get them paranoid, further get them scared and finally make them join you.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 26 Dec 2018 19:44

ADA/NFTC has been able to maintain full on tempo (~50-60 flights per month) for over an year now on flight testing. This year saw >600 or so test flight in one year. Thats 50% increase over previous year.

srin · Post by **srin** » 26 Dec 2018 21:43

Interview with HAL CMD R Madhvan http://www.businessworld.in/article/-HA ... 18-165552/

Presently, production of LCA Tejas Mk-I in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration is under progress at HAL. A total of 20 aircraft are to be delivered to IAF as per IOC contract, out of which nine have been delivered. This will be followed by production of 20 aircraft in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration. Delivery of all these aircraft is likely to be completed by 2022.

Learnings from IOC and FOC-configured LCA Tejas Mk-I is being used in the development of Mk-IA which will incorporate advanced, state-of-the-art systems like Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile, Unified Electronic Warfare System, Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile and upgraded avionics. Proposal for production of 83 such aircraft is with the Ministry of Defence.

There is some delay on LCA as FOC is yet to come. Even though the order was placed with us in 2006, the IOC came in 2013 from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and that is why we could not start production. Even after IOC, there were a large number of drawing changes and amendments, and as a result we could hardly produce anything in the first two years. Now, as we try to stabilise it, FOC is going to come in December. If it doesn’t, there might be problems next year, as we have set up assembly lines for 16 aircraft. This was also understood by the Secretary for Defence Production. Assuming that FOC comes in December, we are also making the structure parallely — believing that there will be no more changes in the drawing. So next year, we will be able to meet the targets. In case of a delay in FOC or other complications, we may not be able to meet the target. In respect of all other platforms we are on time.

The LCA programme is based on the philosophy of concurrent engineering, which means, design and production progress simultaneously. Aircraft configuration evolves based on the experience gained during design and production. Further, multiple agencies at various geographical locations need to liaise with one another to arrive at an optimum solution for each issue. This requires close coordination and assigning priority to each task. In such an ecosystem some delays are inevitable.

Presently, LCA Tejas has a matured platform and production issues are being resolved with the active support of all agencies. An investment of Rs 1,381 crore has been finalised for ramping up the production capacity from eight to 16 aircraft per year by March 2020. A parallel production line is being established at HAL Aircraft Division to expedite output. Major assembly modules have been outsourced to tier-I vendors to enhance capacity. However, production of FOC-standard LCA can happen only after clearance from the design agency.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Dec 2018 00:01

IR sir now that FOC is around the corner if possible can you comment on spin recovery and stall testing on the Tejas ? Is the FCS still guarding the possibility of the bird entering these regimes like before ?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 27 Dec 2018 02:28

Short and simple answer - Yes.

Not only will it prevent the bird entering in these regimes it will also recover the plane and stabilize it before handing back control to the pilot when the plane goes dangerously close to some of those regimes.

They must have been pretty sure that LCA will not enter spin and existing limits by FCS are good enough and must have demonstrated the same adequately. Else there was no chance IAF would have accepted the plane.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 27 Dec 2018 03:29

There are two ways to solve the spin and recovery problem. First - The plane goes into spin and then the FBW comp recovers it. You need to go to that regime, test it and code your FC law. Dangerous, and could loose the plane. But a very well developed flight regime. There is a youtube video where either F-16 or F-18 went into spin, the engineers said that it will automatically recover in x000 feet and it did.

Second is, you restrict the FC of the plane and not let it go in spin at all. (Tornado does it so does LCA). A little restricted regime, but less riskier way to develop the FC. Unknown - Have you accounted for all spin conditions and stopped the plane. The same risk is in the first approach, have you coded spin recovery for all conditions?

Overall, what we are doing, a right approach.

srin · Post by **srin** » 27 Dec 2018 07:15

WTF ? Who to believe ?

Israeli firm bags electronic warfare suite deal for LCA Tejas

Israeli firm Elisra has bagged Rs 178 crore deal
for developing the electronic warfare suite for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft
(LCA) Tejas Mk1A aircraft being built for the Indian Air Force .
The Israeli firm was selected by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited after issuing a multi-vendor tender in which around six to seven companies had participated, a senior Defence
Ministry official told ANI here on Wednesday.
The official said the selection through a comprehensive process has helped in bringing down the cost of the electronic warfare
suite.
"Development cost of the electronic warfare suite for the order placed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited works out to Rs
177.43 crore which will include three prototypes and other support equipment," he said.
The Israeli firm has also been involved in developing the D-29 EW suite for the upgraded MiG-29 aircraft
fleet of the Indian Air Force in collaboration with the Indian public sector company Bharat
Electronics Limited and the DRDO.

Defence Ministry official said the D-29 could not be used for the LCA Tejas as there was a need for major redesign for putting it
on the indigenous plane.
HAL officials said they had initiated talks with the BEL for redesigning the D-29 for the LCA Tejas but it
was not able to provide a proposal for the complete electronic warfare suite.
The Defence Ministry official said the DRDO and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) also carried out a test to find out
whether the D-29 could be used without modification on the LCA but the results found out that it was not "feasible". (ANI)

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Dec 2018 08:05

Isnt this the known status?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 27 Dec 2018 08:38

Ya old news what is new or surprising?

srin · Post by **srin** » 27 Dec 2018 09:42

^^^
Please re-read the Ajai Shukla blog on this. He mentioned that Elta won the deal and Elisra wasn't allowed to contest.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Dec 2018 10:33

http://www.businessworld.in/amp/article ... 20%251%24s

HAL working to deliver remaining Tejas by March 2019.