Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 22 Feb 2019 06:13

Uttam is intended for production. :mrgreen:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... oo-455948/

Separately, the Tejas Mk1 appeared in the static display with a locally developed active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar installed. The radar, developed by India’s Electronic Research Development Establishment (LRD), was visible through a special clear nose cone.

The radar has undergone both mechanical integration on the jet and avionics integration in the lab. Though mounted on a test aircraft that flew to the show, the radar has yet to be powered up in the aircraft. This is due to take place in the next month. The LRD expects that two years of testing will ensue, followed by half a year of proving work.

The new radar will eventually replace the mechanically scanned Elta EL/M-2032 now used on the fighter.

“[The radar] is capable of tracking multiple targets with high accuracy suitable for firing missiles and interleaved air-to-air, air-to-ground, and air-to-sea modes for all terrain solutions and high mission reliability,” says LRD.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Feb 2019 07:37

The timeline for Mk1A (first flight 2022) does not seem right. When originally proposed by HAL as a stopgap before Mk2, it was supposed to be ready in 2 years IIRC.

With this timeline, I hope the IAF orders 3-4 more squadrons of Mk1-FOC to fill the gap before Mk1A is ready for production.

What I don't understand is that Mk1FOC is way better than the Mig-21 it is replacing, so what is the IAF's reluctance in ordering more of it?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2019 10:13

https://twitter.com/SaurabhJoshi/status ... 6189407238
HAL issues a clarification. LCA Mk 1A ‘timeline to fly is three years from the time contract gets signed’, not 2022.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Feb 2019 11:49

JayS and KaranM
How many of the LSP and PV are there? And are they configured to carry weapons?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2019 12:15

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098829102507806720
A nice break-up of who builds what of the LCA Tejas airframe — heartening they there’s plenty of private sector stuff here Should be even greater in the MWF & AMCA

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 22 Feb 2019 12:31

Rohit,

BRF needs you back Bhai. All of us want one thing and one thing alone: A strong Indian Army guarding a strong India.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby mody » 22 Feb 2019 15:25

83 MK1A are actually supposed to be only 73 MK1A + 10MK1-FoC, 2 seat trainers.
All trainers are going to be MK1 standard only and not MK1A. Though the order for the Elta 2052 radar is stated as being for 83 nos.
Hope they increase the order for the MK1 by another squadron or 16 nos. and an additional 16 nos. of MK1A as well.

If the first flight of MK1A is to take place in 2022 and production to begin from 2023, then currently HAL has only 34 fighters to deliver after the Mk1-IOC standard planes. They can easily order another 16 MK1-FOC so that 50 planes can be produced between April 2019 to March 2023. Along with this, the 16 IOC standard can be upgraded to FOC standard. With this, we would get 3 squadrons of MK1-FOC planes, plus 18, 2-seat trainers by March 2023.
Thereafter MK1A production can start at the rate of 24 aircrafts per annum.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Manish Jain » 22 Feb 2019 16:37

Question.

If Uttam is almost ready and can be inducted in 2 years or so and MK-1A is scheduled to fly only after 3 years from contract signing, then why are we buying Elta-2052? Why not use Uttam right from beginning?

Is it just to mitigate risk?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby gaurav.p » 22 Feb 2019 16:43

Yes from my arm chair perspective, it is to mitigate risk. Mk1A is HAL project. From the learnings of jaguar AESA, they are porting the 2052 to LCAMk1A. It should take lesser time and lesser risk.

Validation and integrating the Uttam is a big task. Uttam had been fitted long back to LSP-2, but it hadn't flown. In the writetake video, they said that there is scope for integrating uttam to replace the MMR radars of LCAMk1.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2019 17:17

But by using Uttam on MkIA we can mature it to a better level for MkII and AMCA

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 17:24

With Uttam, will come Astra. So Uttam has to qualify on LCA along with Astra. If this happens before MK1A first flight, then there will be a peculiar situation with Uttam+Astra combo ready, MK1A with 2052+Derby yet to fly.

The Elta jammer may not be compatible with Uttam. If it is made compatible.... that is Mk1A isn't it?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 17:27

gaurav.p wrote:Yes from my arm chair perspective, it is to mitigate risk. Mk1A is HAL project. From the learning of jaguar AESA, they are porting the 2052 to LCAMk1A. It should take lesser time and lesser risk.



The risk mitigation will help, if MK1A flies soon. If Uttam qualifies before MK1A? it would be interesting to see the progress on Uttam.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2019 17:35

while we always unhappy at numbers like 83 or 100, let me remind thats more in itself than most EU afs!!

the mighty RAF has 142 typhoons, 22 tornado GR4 and 17 JSF.
the JSFs will never replace the large number of tornados which were in service. the ADV a2a variant were all retired in 2011 and these GR4 must be last of a dying breed. the typhoons were trickle funded in adding strike capability and probably still not as well rounded as GR4.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chola » 22 Feb 2019 18:07

Singha wrote:while we always unhappy at numbers like 83 or 100, let me remind thats more in itself than most EU afs!!

the mighty RAF has 142 typhoons, 22 tornado GR4 and 17 JSF.
the JSFs will never replace the large number of tornados which were in service. the ADV a2a variant were all retired in 2011 and these GR4 must be last of a dying breed. the typhoons were trickle funded in adding strike capability and probably still not as well rounded as GR4.


Well put, GD. We are one of but a handful of air forces to buy large numbers of fighters. Most militaries would kill to have 83 of anything!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Feb 2019 18:12

Singha wrote:while we always unhappy at numbers like 83 or 100, let me remind thats more in itself than most EU afs!!

the mighty RAF has 142 typhoons, 22 tornado GR4 and 17 JSF.
the JSFs will never replace the large number of tornados which were in service. the ADV a2a variant were all retired in 2011 and these GR4 must be last of a dying breed. the typhoons were trickle funded in adding strike capability and probably still not as well rounded as GR4.

why these AFs exist is a separate question. But these AF dont have to face chinese. Russian threat, is negligible and if it's there, they anyways wont be able to do much without khan

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pralay » 22 Feb 2019 19:11

mody wrote:83 MK1A are actually supposed to be only 73 MK1A + 10MK1-FoC, 2 seat trainers.
All trainers are going to be MK1 standard only and not MK1A. Though the order for the Elta 2052 radar is stated as being for 83 nos.
Hope they increase the order for the MK1 by another squadron or 16 nos. and an additional 16 nos. of MK1A as well.

If the first flight of MK1A is to take place in 2022 and production to begin from 2023, then currently HAL has only 34 fighters to deliver after the Mk1-IOC standard planes. They can easily order another 16 MK1-FOC so that 50 planes can be produced between April 2019 to March 2023. Along with this, the 16 IOC standard can be upgraded to FOC standard. With this, we would get 3 squadrons of MK1-FOC planes, plus 18, 2-seat trainers by March 2023.
Thereafter MK1A production can start at the rate of 24 aircrafts per annum.

We can only hope, IAF will not let the production line be idle

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2019 19:17

I dont see a idle production line but only 8 per year production till MkIA, it it is ready by 2023

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Feb 2019 19:22

GR4 is retiring this year
RAF manages to maximise impact by using force multipliers and being part of the khan network; outside of which it cannot do much
IAF needs to build up AWACS and JSTARs capabilities big time

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SidSoma » 22 Feb 2019 19:36

From

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/desi-radar-for-tejas-under-trials-will-be-a-game-changer/articleshow/68102616.cms

Saleem Javed, another scientist, said that at present, the radar is flying on an executive jet, the Hawke-800 provided by Zephyr Aerospace, a Bengaluru-based firm. “Testing is happening at HAL airport,” he said. “Soon, it will be tested on the Tejas.”


Some one a few pages back remarked that there was an civil aircraft parked on the Tarmac near CABS with a LCA nose. Confirmation of a great spot. (pls ignore the DDM in the article)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 22 Feb 2019 20:09

Pleasant surprize by team Uttam. Now I am confused as to which AESA Radar the DRDO Chief was referring to in his testimony to the PAC, excepts of the reports posted few pages ago in this thread. We thought its Elta. So now perhaps both are under testing..??

Anyhow the team Uttam says they can finish the testing in within an year. Apart from performance at high speeds other parts are a known quantity. Me thinks when Uttam comes it will replace MMR. Mk1A will continue with Elta 2052 as we have already committed to Israel on that one.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Feb 2019 21:54

Kakarat wrote:But by using Uttam on MkIA we can mature it to a better level for MkII and AMCA


You are thinking technology validation. IAF has to fight.
So it will be handicapping the force by putting these on Mk1A.
Once validated they can be retrofitted.
And also who knows what delays for the subsequent programs will occur due to over promise and under delivery?

That's the problem with weapons development.
DRDO types think they can continually keep making improvements but meantime the forces need weapons that they can confidently use.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 22 Feb 2019 22:09

ramana wrote:
Kakarat wrote:But by using Uttam on MkIA we can mature it to a better level for MkII and AMCA


You are thinking technology validation. IAF has to fight.
So it will be handicapping the force by putting these on Mk1A.
Once validated they can be retrofitted.
And also who knows what delays for the subsequent programs will occur due to over promise and under delivery?

That's the problem with weapons development.
DRDO types think they can continually keep making improvements but meantime the forces need weapons that they can confidently use.


The Uttam radar is in advanced stages of testing in an executive jet, LSP-2 will start testing it in a couple of months and first flight of MkIA is expected only after 3 years from contract signing
So in my opinion the radar can be validated in time for MkIA. It would be waste of resources to retrofit 2052 with Uttam, If the radar performs well in initial tests on LSP-2 then may be a couple of IOC/FOC versions can be fitted with it to get user feedback also

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ramana » 22 Feb 2019 22:16

Kakkarat, Testing in actual fighter plane will take a lot of time. First the air to air mode. then the air to ground mode and finally air to sea mode.
All this will mean testing to the design envelopes and actual margins.
Its not as easy as they are saying.
IAF will not and should not accept it unless it goes full length of the testing.
Especially margin testing.
Anyway lets see.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 23:01

Since the MWF is a highly modified variant of the LCA, a good frame of reference is the jump from the Hornet to the Super Hornet. As far as testing was concerned the SH program saw about 2000 hours of developmental article flight testing (minus the avionics testing on surrogate aircraft and the 14000 hours of wind tunnel testing) with a dedicated Operational Test and Evaluation phase that ran an additional 1200-1300 hours with the aircraft dropping 400K pounds of ordinance during its 6 months OPEVAL.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 22 Feb 2019 23:08

jappad times for men! [specifically firangies]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098995819712266241 ---> #GoTejas! This was FOC day.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bharadwaj » 22 Feb 2019 23:46

Some videos of tejas demo at ai19 showing 20-21 sec for a 360. Pretty amazing for a fighter with an alleged str issue.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 00:33

Bharadwaj wrote:Some videos of tejas demo at ai19 showing 20-21 sec for a 360. Pretty amazing for a fighter with an alleged str issue.

Any link..?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Bharadwaj » 23 Feb 2019 00:44

JayS wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:Some videos of tejas demo at ai19 showing 20-21 sec for a 360. Pretty amazing for a fighter with an alleged str issue.

Any link..?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnqEBdNK8tY

Looking at it again perhaps the video is accelerated or cut in certain segments for production purposes.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYs0JWNd1iU

This spotter video looks more accurate but shows a slower 360 turn of approx 28 secs. That said the rafale also appears to take 28-30 seconds in other videos. I guess altitude and ambient temps had an effect?.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Zynda » 23 Feb 2019 00:50

From a mango man perspective, both Rafale & F-Solah scored on the wow perspective. Sukhoi has the loudest engine which contributes to wow factor. Tejas is a delight to watch for us jingos but for others, its performance is purely average. I do believe that Tejas performance was much better in Bahrain. Also lots of restrictions on envelope at AI limits what can be shown.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 Feb 2019 01:23

BREAKING: The article is here. Very very detailed. I am still reading, digesting. Of course all rights of the authors, publishers.

Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/
Last edited by Rishi_Tri on 23 Feb 2019 01:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 01:24

Is this Derby or Derby ER?
Looks longer than a std. Derby but could be perspective/camera trick

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 01:28

Very nice article Indranil and JayS! Great job to you both!

Thank You!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 01:36

Looks same to me. Have they increased the length for ER version, I have not seen reference to elongation. only that it has dual pulse motor now.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2019 01:55

great job Indranil and Nilesh!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2019 01:57

Karan M wrote:Is this Derby or Derby ER?
Looks longer than a std. Derby but could be perspective/camera trick

Image

I don't know about others, but for me it looks like Tejas on steroids! :) I'd say, way to go [if aerodynamic gurus think so]!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby VickyAvinash » 23 Feb 2019 02:16

Rishi_Tri wrote:BREAKING: The article is here. Very very detailed. I am still reading, digesting. Of course all rights of the authors, publishers.

Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/


Thanks for the effort Indranil and JayS. Great article.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby sankum » 23 Feb 2019 02:36

Thanks. Indranil and JayS for the great article.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby pralay » 23 Feb 2019 02:39

Rishi_Tri wrote:Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I
By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

Beautiful article, it was joy to read it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 03:17

Superb article Jay and Indranil.

Thankfully, I missed it earlier. I had a lot of work stuff earlier and this would have completely distracted me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I wish you guys had covered the avionics & other aspects as well, but lets not gild the lily. Now wheres part 2. :mrgreen:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 04:09

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098844025719709697 ----> Gun Vibration Trials for the Tejas Mk I had revealed that the mount needs some stiffening. That'll happen and the IAF should be congratulated for the understanding they have shown on this.


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