Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 02:33

Kartik wrote:Fingers crossed, hope this news is true..can't imagine why this news was revealed at some quaint Gujarat University function and not some other DRDO event.

If true, it makes perfect sense to leak this at some non-descript function at a university. Announce quietly, keeping dangling the OEMs (maintain status quo) and ALL IZZ WELL 8)

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 02 Mar 2018 02:39

That basically would work if you want it to pass under the radar..its just a one liner in an article somewhere..whereas if it would be announced at some DRDO function or if it was a press release, it would get a lot more press and there would be pandemonium amongst the MRCA contenders, import pasands and dalals. Now that would be fun! :lol:

Anyway, now that this has been revealed (just praying it wasn't a gaffe on the part of Dr Christopher), I hope some good journos dig deeper into this and more facts emerge.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Mar 2018 02:43

Yes, that is where this needs to go next. We need more official confirmation other than just a news piece, but it will be hard pressed to get. Anyways, let us wait and see. I sense firecracker time on March 10th (during Macron's visit).

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 02 Mar 2018 02:45

Rakesh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Let the laughter be heard in the import lobbies across Delhi, Italy, Sweden, Amreeka, Moscow

I am waiting for an official confirmation - I know it will be hard pressed to get - before I parade this in the face of BRF's import lobby :mrgreen:

^^^^^^
he he he he he

Da Comrade Admiral Rakesh

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby PratikDas » 02 Mar 2018 03:06

ManuJ wrote:From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:

Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said.


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/



Image


Let it be so.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Shankk » 02 Mar 2018 03:44

Kartik wrote:Fingers crossed, hope this news is true..can't imagine why this news was revealed at some quaint Gujarat University function and not some other DRDO event.


This could very well be true. That also explains why HAL invited private partnership for manufacturing helicopters. IIRC they were for civilian use. Looks like they feel confident about this Tejas MK 2 order and don't want to spread themselves thin by venturing into civilian helicopter market. They would rather play the role of OEM for civilian market and keep themselves the gatekeeper of military tech.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ramana » 02 Mar 2018 05:26

ManuJ wrote:From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:

Speaking of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Christopher said HAL had already got an order to manufacture 123 LCAs. “In addition to that, the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II. We are working on it and by 2022 it will be flying,” he said.


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/


Awesome digging. You rock. 201 is magic number..with the 123 already orders it is 324/18 = 18 squadrons of Tejas.
And another hidden gem.is Tejas Mk2 will.fly in 2022 i.e 4 years from now.

Dr. Christopher rocks. I had said before he is a doer and gets things happen.
Most likely will go down as one of the most effective DRDO chiefs.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2018 07:17

PratikDas wrote:
ManuJ wrote:From the DRDO chief - IAF has already committed to over 300 LCAs:



http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indias-awacs-is-low-cost-better-than-pakistans-says-drdo-chief-5083268/



Image


Let it be so.

Yahoo! evam astu

Rak bhai, let twin engined AMCA be the Medium MRCA as Mk2 satisfies SEF.

Pratik ji, T Shirts with this meme is highly possible. Please patent it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 07:41

Shankk wrote:
Kartik wrote:Fingers crossed, hope this news is true..can't imagine why this news was revealed at some quaint Gujarat University function and not some other DRDO event.


This could very well be true. That also explains why HAL invited private partnership for manufacturing helicopters. IIRC they were for civilian use. Looks like they feel confident about this Tejas MK 2 order and don't want to spread themselves thin by venturing into civilian helicopter market. They would rather play the role of OEM for civilian market and keep themselves the gatekeeper of military tech.

HAL wants to move more towards being the design house and vertical integrator. It has started outsourcing major subassemblies of LCA to Tier-1 private manufacturers and plans to do same for LCH, LUH and HTT-40. They are open to the idea of a 3rd LCA assembly line by a private player. Maybe that will be in some form of JV partnership arrangement. ALH (civil) is along the same lines.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2018 08:55

please note the keywords before doubting..

^^
the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 02 Mar 2018 09:40

I just wonder what IAF wrote on!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rishi_Tri » 02 Mar 2018 09:45

SaiK wrote:please note the keywords before doubting..

^^
the air force has given in writing another 201 aircraft, which is the next version, that we call as Mark-II.


This coupled with scrapping of SEF is biggest victory for desi defense for this generation. Domestic and global implications cannot be lost on anyone. Upto DRDO and HAL to deliver. The pressure groups have done their bit of keeping the Tejas fire lit; now time for it to become the Blinding Light it should be.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby RoyG » 02 Mar 2018 09:47

srai wrote:
Shankk wrote:
This could very well be true. That also explains why HAL invited private partnership for manufacturing helicopters. IIRC they were for civilian use. Looks like they feel confident about this Tejas MK 2 order and don't want to spread themselves thin by venturing into civilian helicopter market. They would rather play the role of OEM for civilian market and keep themselves the gatekeeper of military tech.

HAL wants to move more towards being the design house and vertical integrator. It has started outsourcing major subassemblies of LCA to Tier-1 private manufacturers and plans to do same for LCH, LUH and HTT-40. They are open to the idea of a 3rd LCA assembly line by a private player. Maybe that will be in some form of JV partnership arrangement. ALH (civil) is along the same lines.


I've been advocating this and pointing out this trend forever. DRDO/HAL are becoming more DARPA like in the way they operate. In another decade or two the entire defense r&d and manufacturing will look completely diff. As private industry gobbles up more the manufacturing share they will do their own r&d as well. I think reforms in higher education will also change things.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby deejay » 02 Mar 2018 09:54

Indranil wrote:I just wonder what IAF wrote on!


What does this post mean?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kashi » 02 Mar 2018 09:58

Indranil wrote:I just wonder what IAF wrote on!


How's written in writing different from a confirmed order?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby deejay » 02 Mar 2018 10:00

Kashi wrote:
Indranil wrote:I just wonder what IAF wrote on!


How's written in writing different from a confirmed order?


Any communication by IAF on financial commitments without MoD backing has no meaning.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby ramana » 02 Mar 2018 10:02

Indranil wrote:I just wonder what IAF wrote on!



Usually it's on a letter head. It's called letter of Intent.

Folks this is a great milestone and I see a lot of sceptical posts .

Stop seeing dungeons in our castles in the air and share the optimism.

The whole Defence ministry and services have declared their intent. Now it's matter of execution.
324 Tejas is bigger than SU-30MkI

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Singha » 02 Mar 2018 10:07

A big order will also keep ge and safran both warm inside our tent than sulking outside
I am thinking future larger and smaller engines from same knowledge base

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Kashi » 02 Mar 2018 10:16

Are we going to go with both GE and Safran in the future? If yes, then how many aircraft will be powered by each? Or would it be Kaveri-M88 for Tejas and GE for AMCA, exclusively?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2018 10:20

ekam yantram,
anekam mantram.

It should be few more spools for air-flow/thrust control. We should have a range of 90kN to 130kN

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 10:20

Kashi wrote:Are we going to go with both GE and Safran in the future? If yes, then how many aircraft will be powered by each? Or would it be Kaveri-M88 for Tejas and GE for AMCA, exclusively?

First engines will be GE-404/414. An aircraft will go through at least three engines in its lifetime. Kaveri-M88 will most probably be at MLU 10-15 years later. Still ways to go for certification and production.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Manish_P » 02 Mar 2018 10:25

PratikDas wrote:Image

Let it be so.


Nice graphic this!

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 10:28

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Singha » 02 Mar 2018 10:30

Using large tejas and amca orders we should develop a set of engines not just one...at various thrusts incl for ghatak and future global hawk and heavy pakda type creations.
It cannot be a one off product oriented thing but build the data banks, people, manufacturing , test labs , mathematical depts to atleast be a middle ranked aero engine power by 2030

South korea is also going that route. Japan is already there and cheen is moving the heavens to get there

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Manish_P » 02 Mar 2018 10:32

deejay wrote:Any communication by IAF on financial commitments without MoD backing has no meaning.


You have a way of keeping the forum grounded in reality, Sir :)

But today, this holy day, let us jingos have this small happy moment.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby nash » 02 Mar 2018 10:33

If we consider this true then what will be the time line:

123 Mk1As - 2025
201 Mk2 - 2035-40

By this time AMCA should go into the LSP or SP phase, seems like HAL order book is done for next several decades that too with indigenous product.

And if at all we need to import then it should be 36-54 Rafale, build in India, and Super Sukhoi upgrade.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 10:42

^^^
Typical production run at the minimum is 5-years. Manufacturers won’t do anything shorter and will adjust rates/year accordingly. Users would want them ASAP. Government would need to find adequate funds spread over several years.

With a substantial order of 201 units, there will be 3rd and 4th final assembly lines by private manufacturer along with two lines at HAL. More Tier-1 suppliers of major subassemblies and Tier-2/3 would be required. I would say at least 7-year production run post 2025.

Post Mk2, there would also be pretty big market for Mk.1 MLU. Part of the ecosystem would be continue to be utilized for those major upgrades/overhauls.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 02 Mar 2018 12:36

All planes would be in service by 2030 if MK2 is also a done deal..By 2024..You would have sufficient lines for churning out these aicrafts in scores.The M88-Kaveri will make India a player in export market

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 13:00

Anshuman.Kumar wrote:All planes would be in service by 2030 if MK2 is also a done deal..By 2024..You would have sufficient lines for churning out these aircraft in scores.The M88-Kaveri will make India a player in export market

As it stands, Mk.2 would be ready for production sometime around 2025. You have to factor in 24-36 months lead times as well as production stabilization and ramp up time. That will easily take production past 2030.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Rahul M » 02 Mar 2018 13:06

turning out to be an excellent Holi ! :D

srai wrote:^^^
Typical production run at the minimum is 5-years. Manufacturers won’t do anything shorter and will adjust rates/year accordingly. Users would want them ASAP. Government would need to find adequate funds spread over several years.

With a substantial order of 201 units, there will be 3rd and 4th final assembly lines by private manufacturer along with two lines at HAL. More Tier-1 suppliers of major subassemblies and Tier-2/3 would be required. I would say at least 7-year production run post 2025.

Post Mk2, there would also be pretty big market for Mk.1 MLU. Part of the ecosystem would be continue to be utilized for those major upgrades/overhauls.

there were some excellent posts on Tejas assembly lines, with capacity and expected timeline for completion. anyone can help me locate those ?

Given the 2025 production start date for Mk2, one would expect that for the first couple of years Mk1 & Mk2 production would take place simultaneously, with the smaller capacity Mk1 lines moving to Mk2 first as Mk1 production goes down and moves to Mk2. similarly, starting 2030-32 we might expect AMCA production to slowly supplant Mk2 lines. by 2035 Mk2 production should be coming to an end, but lines may still remain open for exports(if any), making up in-service losses of IAF sqn's and MLU. One would expect a MLU at around 2035 using tech from AMCA project.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 02 Mar 2018 13:12

Bhaji Flip nahee dis rahe
Kithe Chup Gaye .... mera Russian Potato berather

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Mar 2018 13:21

Uhm....I don't see the reason for all the exuberance - that the IAF will order more Tejas was a given as we got closer to FOC. I had said the same many times before. What I was hoping for however, was not a "letter of intent" for 200 mk2 (paper plane) but a frickin' concrete order for more FOC std birds!

Actually I'm quite disappointed.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby nam » 02 Mar 2018 16:52

From the man himself.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/no-overpricing-in-rafale-deal-iaf-chief-marshal-bs-dhanoa/articleshow/61677068.cms?from=mdr

He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.

Shortcomings in LCA Mark 1 will be removed in the LCA Mark 1A aircraft and then Mark 2 will be manufactured, he said.


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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby saumitra_j » 02 Mar 2018 17:09

Actually there is much more in that article than just the news of Tejas which needs to be highlighted:

The IAF chief said a plan was in place to deal with the "drop-down" -- or dip -- in IAF squadrons.

He said the government had ordered two squadrons of Su 30.

"The drop-down will be made up by two Rafale, two Su 30, two LCA squadrons and 80 more aircraft which will give four more squadrons," he said
Does this mean that our Su30 nos go upto close to 300? :twisted:

There was an order of 272 aircraft and once again we were 35 short by March 2017," he said.

Dhanoa said a contract was signed in March 2006 for 20 Tejas aircraft to be delivered between April 2009 and December 2010.

"Out of these 20 aircraft, only five were received ... Again a contract was signed in December 2010 for 20 more aircraft to be delivered between June 2014 and December 2016. So we have already committed to 40 aircraft in addition to 83 more Tejas," he said. ..


See how the operational planning of the IAF is getting messed up because of consistent delays in delivery of "contracted" aircrafts! And people complain about IAF not being supportive... :shock:

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby srai » 02 Mar 2018 18:20

^^^
There is a difference. The supportive process of orders needs to follow the timelines of the R&D. Back in 2010, IOC-1 (Jan-2011) was getting ready, but the IAF didn't accept that and instead waited for IOC-2 (Dec-2013) before serial production of the first 20 could begin. Add 36 months standard lead-time for deliveries to begin, that puts the first lot deliveries of IOC-2 at Dec-2016. IOC-2 is a very capable configuration (multi-role) and could continued to be procured even if there were delays with the FOC. Later these can be upgraded to FOC. Talking about FOC, the requirements are quite strigent with the addition of new radome, AAR, etc. That is almost ready. But the order book is staying at 20 FOC. The IAF wants the next lot of 83 be Mk.1A with AESA radar and integrated jammer among other maintenance changes. Doesn't help anything by insisting they ordered 20 + 20 planes in 2010. Situation has changed and they need to have the flexibility to make adjustments. Tejas Mk.1 is far superior to the MiG-21/27 that are retiring and with squadron shortages more quantities of Mk.1 being procured in 2018 would go a long way.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby nam » 02 Mar 2018 18:33

LCA was freed from telemetry only in 2012. So IAF cannot fly the plane, which is not certified for flying by non-test pilots.

Now the SP is going full steam. HAL seems interested. IAF pilots seem to like the plane. Correspondingly we got news of 40 + 83. Now a long term plan of MK2.

So there is a well laid plan. Now it is for ADA, HAL & IAF to make it a success.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby vasu raya » 02 Mar 2018 19:33

Echoing srai's post above,

The key need is the ability to carry additional fuel, more internal space and a higher thrust engine, overall its the improved aerodynamics that necessiates the Mk2 version, so keeping only these critical requirements for IOC and retaining commonality with most of the internals of Mk1A allows for quicker protottyping effort and consequently a production ready airframe. The statement that only 25% commonality will be there with Mk1A means they are allowing for scope creep that causes delays when such a goal is just fine for FOC or even later of Mk2. FOC of many aircraft happens way past after its in full production.

One of the lessons from Mk1 was Kaveri that was de-linked from the Mk1 late in the program, same with the indigenous radar, so why commit upfront on Mk2 when these increments will keep happening even post FOC. Just take care of the OML of the Mk2 for the IOC along with the needed thrust.

MKI was slowly indigenized, and IAF was fine with that approach.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 02 Mar 2018 19:50

deejay wrote:
Indranil wrote:I just wonder what IAF wrote on!


What does this post mean?

deejay wrote:Any communication by IAF on financial commitments without MoD backing has no meaning.

This is exactly what it means. The thing to like though is the number 201. Not 20, not 40, not 80, 201 is a good number.

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 02 Mar 2018 22:22

Actually, 324 is a good number. :-)

Any numerology?

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Re: Tejas Mk.2 News & Discussions: 25 February 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Mar 2018 22:25

saumitra_j wrote:Actually there is much more in that article than just the news of Tejas which needs to be highlighted:

The IAF chief said a plan was in place to deal with the "drop-down" -- or dip -- in IAF squadrons.

He said the government had ordered two squadrons of Su 30.

"The drop-down will be made up by two Rafale, two Su 30, two LCA squadrons and 80 more aircraft which will give four more squadrons," he said
Does this mean that our Su30 nos go upto close to 300? :twisted:

There was an order of 272 aircraft and once again we were 35 short by March 2017," he said.

Dhanoa said a contract was signed in March 2006 for 20 Tejas aircraft to be delivered between April 2009 and December 2010.

"Out of these 20 aircraft, only five were received ... Again a contract was signed in December 2010 for 20 more aircraft to be delivered between June 2014 and December 2016. So we have already committed to 40 aircraft in addition to 83 more Tejas," he said. ..


See how the operational planning of the IAF is getting messed up because of consistent delays in delivery of "contracted" aircrafts! And people complain about IAF not being supportive... :shock:


Good points. I had said this months ago..
not connvinced that the IAF iis hellbent on dmping the lca. It will order many more - either at FOC or when mk1a comes online. My guess is that about 250-300 units are definitely onn the cards


Glad that the IAF is coming through...


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