Tejas Mk.2: News & Discussions - 25 February 2018

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 11 Feb 2019 21:12

1) "the entire assembly of front fuselage assembly weighs 500 kg approximately (Structure weight)"
2) "the entire assembly of Centre fuselage assembly weighs about 900 Kg (Structure weight) approximately"
3) "the entire assembly of Rear fuselage assembly weight 400Kg (Shell weight) approximately"
Can someone add up approx. weights of
4) Radar - 80 - 100 kg,
5) Wings + Fin - ??,
6) Engine - 1000 kg.
Let us skip other weights including avionics. Are we on target to keep total weight of MK2 below 7000 kg (ref. weight of Gripen E)?

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 11 Feb 2019 21:21

Very curious to see final airframe of Mk2. IAF officers had suggested that design will incorporate stealth as takeaway from AMCA design, I hope we will see a far better carved out Mk2 than earlier. It should not be the case that only canards are added and we are calling it a drastic design change.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 11 Feb 2019 21:38

Add 4 % of MTOW 17.5T I.e 700kg as landing gear weight. Though this is a 25 year old data.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Feb 2019 21:49

the gripenE is 8000kg empty per saabs own page . it will be good achievement if they can match that.

gripen e in brief - Saab
https://saab.com/globalassets/gripen.co ... et--en.pdf
GRIPEN E. IN BRIEF. Gripen is at the forefront of the global fighter ... Basic mass empty. 8000 kg. Internal fuel. 3400 kg. Max takeoff weight. 16500 kg. Max thrust.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2019 22:08

I am writing an article on the Mk2. Will try to finish it by this week. Lots of details. All of you will love the Mk2.

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 11 Feb 2019 22:18

sankum wrote:Tejas mk2 cross sectional diagrams in HAL jig assembly tenders.

Front section with canards
http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/T ... I%20FF.pdf

Awesome! Thank you sir...

About the canard placement and degrees of rotation available based on the hinge location - some very quick and dirty approximations:
1. 28°down i.e. while they are pointing down
2. 32°up i.e. while they are pointing up.

What do BRF aerodynamics gurus think of the placement and how much will it allow us to extend the flight envelope, slow speed handling, and ITR / STR?

In the Center Fuselage section, are they showing the Gun Bay as part of the wing root like the F-15? That would be a major change or is that arrow pointing below the inlet like it is currently positioned?

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 11 Feb 2019 22:27

few mango observations from the tender images
- the gun bay has changed from below the intake to su30-ish
- the canards look like the placement done in rafale-ish, just above the engine intakes
- yes Jtull-ji, the air intake looks bent forward to me too. Can't say the S-curve
- the stable configuration of the canards also look titled to my mango eyes
- first time realised that mk1 has tail edge extensions

- 2020 is an optimistic deadline, with final mk1 FOC + mk1A IOC/FOC + trainers + unmanned version by ADA (if it is being attempted)

- no retractable A-A refuelling?
- with canards, still having parachutes?
- any experts in tissue paper calculation to estimate the increase in MTOW and fuel capacity from the drawings?
- tails and wings designs are only left now to be released?

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 11 Feb 2019 22:39

Indranil wrote:I am writing an article on the Mk2. Will try to finish it by this week. Lots of details. All of you will love the Mk2.

Waiting eagerly

OT but the forum needs a like button for individual posts. Admins plezz heed to this request.
this might be one such extension in phpBB https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop ... &t=2246576

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:00

sankum wrote:Tejas mk2 cross sectional diagrams in HAL jig assembly tenders.

Front section with canards
http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/T ... I%20FF.pdf

Mid section
http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/T ... I%20CF.pdf

Rear section
http://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/T ... I%20RF.pdf

My estimate for total length is 14.5m(1.3m more than mk1).

Oh my God! I am soooo happy to see this post!! Thank you so much Sankum!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:01

By the way, let me be the first to put in in writing.

The Tejas Mk2 will be one beautiful aircraft. That front fuselage has got to be one of the sleekest around with those canards! Can't wait to see more details at Aero India soon.

Which only makes me salivate thinking of how sexy the LCA Navy Mk2 will be.

.as the Flight Global article mentioned, the design is progressing and they don't share as much commonality as they do now.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2019 00:07

Kartik, your wish is my command

From page 16 of this very dhaaga....and see Indranil's post below this quote....

Rakesh wrote:First, I thought this was a fanboy art, Then I saw the DRDO logo at the top right corner. I still do not know what to make of it.

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5255657472 --> LCA Navy Mk 2 new design? Just look at the canopy.

Indranil wrote:No. This has been the design for the past two years, Admiral . IT is called V0.06L. It was created with consultancy from Cassidian. Wind tunnel tests done.

The actual one will have slight modifications than the one you see here. LCA Navy is getting back on track. Pressure from upstairs. Thorns removed.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2019 00:09

Indranil wrote:I am writing an article on the Mk2. Will try to finish it by this week. Lots of details. All of you will love the Mk2.

Thank you for doing this. Greatly appreciated.

End of the week, means Friday...so we will wait for a fantastic start to a fabulous weekend!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:11

JTull wrote:Great find!

From the mid-section drawing, does anyone else get the impression that the air ducts have slight downward and then inward S curve to it?

They always did. No change as far as I can tell at least. the Y-shaped bifurcated duct was on the LCA Mk1 as well. Pretty much hid the entire engine face..RCS reduction you know?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2019 00:12

gaurav.p wrote:OT but the forum needs a like button for individual posts. Admins plezz heed to this request.
this might be one such extension in phpBB https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop ... &t=2246576

+108! let me find out from Rahul M and other mods...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2019 00:13

sankum wrote:Tejas mk2 cross sectional diagrams in HAL jig assembly tenders.

You rock dude. You have made all jingos happy! Excellent find!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:14

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, your wish is my command

From page 16 of this very dhaaga....and see Indranil's post below this quote....

Rakesh wrote:First, I thought this was a fanboy art, Then I saw the DRDO logo at the top right corner. I still do not know what to make of it.

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5255657472 --> LCA Navy Mk 2 new design? Just look at the canopy.

Indranil wrote:No. This has been the design for the past two years, Admiral . IT is called V0.06L. It was created with consultancy from Cassidian. Wind tunnel tests done.

The actual one will have slight modifications than the one you see here. LCA Navy is getting back on track. Pressure from upstairs. Thorns removed.

Rakesh, there is a little more accurate pic of the LCA Navy Mk2..let me post that!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2019 00:18

WOW!!!!!!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 12 Feb 2019 00:22

^^things seem to be moving in background! Good

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:28

Also noticed that the Tejas Mk2 doesn't seem to feature a pitot probe like on the Mk1/Mk1A. There is no attachment point mentioned for that in the front fuselage diagram.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 Feb 2019 00:32

Am good at LEGO, stick in another engine widen the spine and you have Rafale no wonder the chief wants this

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 12 Feb 2019 00:38

suryag wrote:Am good at LEGO, stick in another engine widen the spine and you have Rafale no wonder the chief wants this

wouldnt that be a long exercise. I read on BRF that scaling up is not the same thing with planes.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:41

ADA doesn't construct prototypes..HAL does. ADA would have released the drawings to HAL to get the parts into manufacture and HAL has to get the jigs ready to begin assembly once the parts start arriving.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:42

ArjunPandit wrote:
suryag wrote:Am good at LEGO, stick in another engine widen the spine and you have Rafale no wonder the chief wants this
wouldnt that be a long exercise. I read on BRF that scaling up is not the same thing with planes.

He's just joking. What he meant is that it has a resemblance to the Rafale's front fuselage.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:43

Indranil wrote:I am writing an article on the Mk2. Will try to finish it by this week. Lots of details. All of you will love the Mk2.

you rock IR! can't wait to read that article. Could you try to get it published somewhere, like FG or Aviation Week?

naird · Post by **naird** » 12 Feb 2019 00:52

Indranil wrote:I am writing an article on the Mk2. Will try to finish it by this week. Lots of details. All of you will love the Mk2.

Thank you so much IR !!! I have literally refreshed this page so many times since morning. Weekend seems far away

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:53

gaurav.p wrote:few mango observations from the tender images
- the gun bay has changed from below the intake to su30-ish
- the canards look like the placement done in rafale-ish, just above the engine intakes
- yes Jtull-ji, the air intake looks bent forward to me too. Can't say the S-curve
- the stable configuration of the canards also look titled to my mango eyes
- first time realised that mk1 has tail edge extensions
- 2020 is an optimistic deadline, with final mk1 FOC + mk1A IOC/FOC + trainers + unmanned version by ADA (if it is being attempted)

- no retractable A-A refuelling?
- with canards, still having parachutes?
- any experts in tissue paper calculation to estimate the increase in MTOW and fuel capacity from the drawings?
- tails and wings designs are only left now to be released?

Canards likely couldn't be placed anywhere else since there was no other way to get
- space to fit the canard actuator
- allow the pilot to have unhindered access to the cockpit
- be placed above the wing to have the canard work effectively

Seems like this is the plan:

- Get the assembly jigs ready by end 2019
- Parts and assemblies should already be in manufacturing so that the jigs can be loaded early to mid 2020
- Given the 6 months for assembling a Tejas currently once parts are on the jigs, target to get it rolled out by end 2020.

Its ambitious, but for once we shouldn't fault HAL for targeting an ambitious schedule. the need of the hour is to get the Mk2 into the air by late 2020 or early 2021 so that at least the IOC flight testing can be completed by 2025 and production can begin in 2026.

naird · Post by **naird** » 12 Feb 2019 00:54

Kartik wrote:ADA doesn't construct prototypes..HAL does. ADA would have released the drawings to HAL to get the parts into manufacture and HAL has to get the jigs ready to begin assembly once the parts start arriving.

Thanks Kartik - was confused on lifecycle.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 00:55

Kartik wrote:Also noticed that the Tejas Mk2 doesn't seem to feature a pitot probe like on the Mk1/Mk1A. There is no attachment point mentioned for that in the front fuselage diagram.

My bad. Just read this part of the tender. Nose Air Data Probe (NADP) is included, but not shown in the diagram.

23) Air Data Probes: Nose Air Data Probe (NADP) / Side Air Data Probe (SADP) /Angle Of Attack ((AOA)/ Angle of Side Slip (AOSS) locating points

Also confirmed that OBOGS will feature on Mk2.

24) Equipment bay: Environmental Control System (ECS), Digital Flight Control computer (DFCC), Avionics system, On Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS)

naird · Post by **naird** » 12 Feb 2019 00:56

Kartik wrote: - Get the assembly jigs ready by end 2019
- Parts and assemblies should already be in manufacturing so that the jigs can be loaded early to mid 2020
- Given the 6 months for assembling a Tejas currently once parts are on the jigs, target to get it rolled out by end 2020.

Its ambitious, but for once we shouldn't fault HAL for targeting an ambitious schedule. the need of the hour is to get the Mk2 into the air by late 2020 or early 2021 so that at least the IOC flight testing can be completed by 2025 and production can begin in 2026.

Looks like ACMDE Balaji's statement was indeed correct. But seems to be very ambitious. Also will require the political push to make sure that AF is fully behind this.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 12 Feb 2019 01:03

Who woulda thunk, we’ll get to see authentic LCA mk 2 CAD drawings in a tender doc!!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 01:05

IAF is fully behind this, no doubt on that. ACM Dhanoa in even his most recent interview mentioned 12 squadrons of Tejas Mk2. The IAF is desperate for numbers, plus the positive experience with the LCA Mk1 in service has changed their mindset to become enthusiastic promoters who want the fighters inducted as quickly as possible.

I am hoping that this leads to a more innovative and pro-active project management style as well, which will push for early entry into service for the first couple of batches and then full operational capability.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 Feb 2019 01:10

Kartik wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: wouldnt that be a long exercise. I read on BRF that scaling up is not the same thing with planes.
He's just joking. What he meant is that it has a resemblance to the Rafale's front fuselage.

Eggjactly

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2019 01:24

Katare wrote:Who woulda thunk, we’ll get to see authentic LCA mk 2 CAD drawings in a tender doc!!!

Indeed! its an absolute wealth of info. We know the dimensions, the number of parts, the major assemblies..its simply amazing. We can do some back of the envelope calcs to get to a ballpark empty weight figure as well..

we know the weights of the
-the structure
-the engine (F-414 INS6)
-ejection seat
-radar

we don't know the weight of
- the wiring and avionics
- the landing gear
- air to air refueling probe

A lot of work has gone on without the media being very aware of it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Feb 2019 01:33

kartik, estimate them as % of aircraft weight. Or look at historical data for similar aircraft.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Feb 2019 02:23

suryag wrote:so excited reading these tender docs

Any idea if HMT can try these jigless machinery ?

HMT is long dead.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Feb 2019 02:29

Kartik wrote:
gaurav.p wrote:few mango observations from the tender images
- the gun bay has changed from below the intake to su30-ish
- the canards look like the placement done in rafale-ish, just above the engine intakes
- yes Jtull-ji, the air intake looks bent forward to me too. Can't say the S-curve
- the stable configuration of the canards also look titled to my mango eyes
- first time realised that mk1 has tail edge extensions
- 2020 is an optimistic deadline, with final mk1 FOC + mk1A IOC/FOC + trainers + unmanned version by ADA (if it is being attempted)

- no retractable A-A refuelling?
- with canards, still having parachutes?
- any experts in tissue paper calculation to estimate the increase in MTOW and fuel capacity from the drawings?
- tails and wings designs are only left now to be released?
Canards likely couldn't be placed anywhere else since there was no other way to get
- space to fit the canard actuator
- allow the pilot to have unhindered access to the cockpit
- be placed above the wing to have the canard work effectively

Seems like this is the plan:

- Get the assembly jigs ready by end 2019
- Parts and assemblies should already be in manufacturing so that the jigs can be loaded early to mid 2020
- Given the 6 months for assembling a Tejas currently once parts are on the jigs, target to get it rolled out by end 2020.

Its ambitious, but for once we shouldn't fault HAL for targeting an ambitious schedule. the need of the hour is to get the Mk2 into the air by late 2020 or early 2021 so that at least the IOC flight testing can be completed by 2025 and production can begin in 2026.

I think it will fly in 2021. Also as the maturity of program goes up, we should see production starting much ahead of flight testing completion as ADA/HAL will have better and better grip on changes. I dont think we will have to wait for Mk2 production till 2026 or so. More like 2023-24 or so. They will quickly get IOC and induct it. FOC will happen overtime.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Feb 2019 02:30

Kartik wrote:
Katare wrote:Who woulda thunk, we’ll get to see authentic LCA mk 2 CAD drawings in a tender doc!!!
Indeed! its an absolute wealth of info. We know the dimensions, the number of parts, the major assemblies..its simply amazing. We can do some back of the envelope calcs to get to a ballpark empty weight figure as well..

we know the weights of the
-the structure
-the engine (F-414 INS6)
-ejection seat
-radar

we don't know the weight of
- the wiring and avionics
- the landing gear
- air to air refueling probe

A lot of work has gone on without the media being very aware of it.

Havent seen wings yet. But we have had a lot of such trivia info on MK1 sometime back. I remember, must be in this thread somewhere.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Feb 2019 02:58

JayS wrote:
suryag wrote:so excited reading these tender docs

Any idea if HMT can try these jigless machinery ?
HMT is long dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMT_(company)

HMT Machine Tools Limited still manufactures industrial machines and tools with a work force of around 2,500 in six manufacturing units situated at Bangalore (Mother unit), Kochi, Hyderabad (2 units), Pinjore and Ajmer.[8] These mostly serve India's defence, government and educational Institutions.[9]

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 731_1.html

Nishn · Post by **Nishn** » 12 Feb 2019 04:23

Time to take a good look at the GE-F-100 as well, instead of just sticking with the F-414 class of thrust. That would be more than sufficient for growth in the coming decades. Will give it the scope for extended range conformal tanks and heavy cruise missiles among other options, right from the outset.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Feb 2019 04:45

Nishn wrote:Time to take a good look at the GE-F-100 as well, instead of just sticking with the F-414 class of thrust. That would be more than sufficient for growth in the coming decades. Will give it the scope for extended range conformal tanks and heavy cruise missiles among other options, right from the outset.

I am going to start deleting posts calling for engine changes for any LCA variant. Tired of people randomly selecting whatever engine catches their fancy and asking it to be integrated with the LCA without looking at the size of the aircraft and engine and thrust requirement and comparable engines on peer aircraft. First it was the AL-31. Now the F100. Soon we will have people asking for the F135.

BTW, it the the PW-F100 you are thinking about not GE. And no the MK2 will not have it. The MK2's design is almost complete. Changine engine types in an aircraft is not like changing a hard drive in your PC.