Kargil War Thread - IV

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 May 2006 22:41

surinder wrote:
karan wrote:As far as LTG Kishan Pal Singh Yadav is concerned, he is a brilliant tactician who commanded utmost respect from his men. A very humble man with a vision of falcon. LTG Kishan Pal was against sending so many troops to their death. His plan was to wait for few months when weather worsened unleash the Air Power, it would have given enough time to prepare troops for extreme cold weather fighting, with enough war reserves, extreme weather gear.
I have always wondered about why during Kargil we needed to send men straight up the steep hills to fight. We could have just waited for the snow to fall and bomb the base camps of the Paki intruders and hurt their supply lines. I am not knowledgable about such issues, though. Could you throw some more light (or point to some link) to the alternatives to our plan in Kargil? More info on LTG Kishan Pal Singh's plans?

Thanks.

s

It was May when the actual intrusions were discovered.

The fact that by mid June the passes open, should ring a bell.

So, where is the issue of snow piling in more than what it was?

It would be worthwhile if one could indicate when and where did Gen KP state that we should await the winter or we wait for ECC etc etc?

Gen Krishan Pal is indeed a very calm and cool soldier and a General. Nothing can panic him.

In so far as going up steep hills and attacking, let's put it this way. More is the delay, more would be the consolidation by the enemy.

So, what is the option?

Air, notwithstanding what is stated here, was not very effective on the heights for a variety of reasons.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 May 2006 23:13

there is also the problem of political consolidation. the longer the paks were on the heights the bigger the barking out of islamabad would have been and more points scoring. there was a need to exert pressure quickly - and ofcourse the problem of the sanctity of the LOC.

RayC - I understand the need to act quickly, but initially it seems attacks were carried out in daylight. Is that really correct? It seems that most attacks switched to night time after a while...

next time (and we know there will be a next time) we need to not only be prepared, but to exact damage in other more effective ways. we will need a whole range of new weapons systems to do that

Neeraj B · Post by **Neeraj B** » 04 May 2006 00:21

I don't understand one thing.. Why did we not use our much talked about Mi-24/35 "force". I know I would be fired upon by folks saying that the air is too thin at such heights and a big bird like Mi 24/35 can not operate at those heights. Then my next question would be what about the Lancers and Cheetah/Chetaks that have been retro fitted with the rocket pods and machine guns.

I think the new range of weapons system is the need of the hour. Attack helicopters are a must. Indian army lacks that punch. A few Cheetahs/Chetaks won't do the trick. We need about 200-300 dedicated attack helicopters for the Indian Army.

Positions/pickets taken up by the enemy were difficult to pinpoint, we didn't have too many precision weapons and those weapons are costly. $1 Million a piece. So we thrust our men to get killed and slaughtered. To die for their country and then miss treat their kith and kin.

In this 21st century, we fought a 19th century battle (OK OK, early 20th Century battle. Happy!!). Gone are the days where you push men to recapture peaks (Like we did in Tiger Hill). Use precision munitions, use carpet bombing, use MLRS, use bombs like Napalm (do we have any?). Once the enemy is neutralized (atleast on the peak) then send in our men.

Our brave men had to fight their way up. And they were sitting ducks. Just see how we got the Tiger Hill back.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... Singh.html
There are more and more stories of how our brave soldiers scaled the heights under hail of fire from the above.

Based on my "limited" knowledge, it felt it was utter foolishness to attack Tiger Hill without proper Arty. and air support. Still we won it back due to a lot of heroism from our soldiers. But at a heavy cost (We lost 6 soldiers). Not even one should be lost.
Plan it right, have proper co-ordination, have air support. I hope we have learnt our lessons and will not commit the same mistakes.

I felt
A. we were under prepared for the Kargil ( Heck we had to scramble to put the LGBs on our Mirages)
B. We did not have proper co-ordination with different arms. Every one was fighting a separate war.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 04 May 2006 00:30

nbagga wrote:Use precision munitions, use carpet bombing, use MLRS, use bombs like Napalm (do we have any?). Once the enemy is neutralized (atleast on the peak) then send in our men.

The biggest mistake of the Kargil war was not attacking targets in TSP. If India had attacked targets within TSP or even PoK, crossed the LoC if you will, it would have called the paki nuclear bluff and saved a lot of lives.

But that's more of a political mistake. Now an impression has been created that India is deterred by TSP's nuclear weapons.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 May 2006 00:48

nbagga wrote:I don't understand one thing.. Why did we not use our much talked about Mi-24/35 "force". I know I would be fired upon by folks saying that the air is too thin at such heights and a big bird like Mi 24/35 can not operate at those heights.

You have answered your own question.

nbagga wrote: Then my next question would be what about the Lancers and Cheetah/Chetaks that have been retro fitted with the rocket pods and machine guns.

The lancer is too lightly armed to be used for the ops. The lancer carries something like three rockets and one machine gun on either side. Thats about six rockets in total. It is at best a COIN aircraft.

The Mi-17s on the other hand can carry 6*16 Rockets = 96 Rockets each - enough to plaster the positions.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 May 2006 00:54

i would like to see a special ultra high alt derivative of Dhruv/LAH to be developed, or perhaps better still, a UCAV that could do a similar job and weapons that can be used to target these penny packets at very high altitudes

no one has these yet... but where there is a will...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 May 2006 03:50

http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/04/stories ... 551000.htm

Response on Kargil

This refers to Praveen Swami's report "Indian spies, soldiers cross swords on Kargil" (April 30).

In the book, [Kargil: From Surprise to Victory], I have tried to present all details (including the letter referred to in the column) and intelligence assessments that led to "Jihadi militants' bogey," and thus a weak and uncertain initial response in Kargil. The politico-military response to jihadi militants is bound to be different when compared to a Pakistan Army intrusion.

As stated in the column, Pakistan's successful intrusions "reflected a major deficiency in our system of collecting, reporting, collating and assessing intelligence." This was a systemic problem. It would be wrong to create a confrontation between the intelligence agencies and the Army over the issue.

The surveillance weaknesses have also been adequately highlighted in the same chapter, `The Dark Winter.' However, Praveen Swami's comment, "Far from preparing to meet the onslaught, the Srinagar-based 15 Corps is known to have actually withdrawn numbers of troops from the Kargil sector, ignoring warnings generated by commanders in Kargil that there were serious deficiencies in Indian defences" is not correct. No troops were withdrawn from 3 Inf Div in 1998-99. In fact, HQ 70 Inf Bde was re-inducted into the Sector in October 1998. No posts were withdrawn from the LoC except one, that is, Bajrang, due to heavy snowfall. As this particular vacation was against the laid down instructions and not reported, the matter was enquired into in detail. These details are contained in the book. After retirement, I keep pens and not swords that can be crossed with others'!

Gen. (retd.) V.P. Malik,
Panchkula, Haryana

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2006 07:17

nbagga wrote:I don't understand one thing.. Why did we not use our much talked about Mi-24/35 "force".

nbagga please read these

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... henag.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... PCamp.html

Might as well look at this
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... index.html

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 04 May 2006 08:16

shiv wrote: ......please read these

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... henag.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... PCamp.html

I was about to say that!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 May 2006 08:22

Folks from what can be read from the reviews of the book there is nothing there that would cause a revisit to the KRC report. So instead of flaggellating ourselves I thinkthe best thing to do is think that Gen Malik's book is his version of the events and chalk it to our free society. Besides he is commenting on operations.

I still am intrigued about his assertion of Chinese troop movements.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2006 08:28

Lalmohan wrote:i would like to see a special ultra high alt derivative of Dhruv/LAH to be developed, or perhaps better still, a UCAV that could do a similar job and weapons that can be used to target these penny packets at very high altitudes

no one has these yet... but where there is a will...

Well IMO if we must "learn" from Kargil looking for intrusions with UCAVs or whatever AFTER they occur is a problem.

Intrusions must be detected BEFORE they get out of hand. That might mean regular sat surveillance and perhaps image analysis algorithms that detect changes and are able to call attention to changes that are man made and not weather related.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 May 2006 00:06

well Shiv - you are right, however - i would like to see UCAV drones flying a grid pattern over sensitive areas almost permanently. Certainly once intrusions have taken place, we will also need an offensive capability. We cannot hermetically seal the border afterall

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 05 May 2006 00:49

Lalmohan wrote:well Shiv - you are right, however - i would like to see UCAV drones flying a grid pattern over sensitive areas almost permanently. Certainly once intrusions have taken place, we will also need an offensive capability. We cannot hermetically seal the border afterall

Who the 'eck will pay for the development of UCAVs and the flying over gridpatterns permanently.. lets talk realistic things here not pipe dreams.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 May 2006 19:35

Shri Raman garu shreds the book of COAS and his claims.

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/05ra ... &file=.htm

Unfortunately, General Malik was not known for his fairness while he was in service. He was perceived by many in the community of senior government servants and national security managers as a compulsive fault-finder and scapegoat-seeker. Even six years after his retirement, he has not changed. That is evident from his book.

One person who is completely in the picture on the performance of the intelligence agencies is the prime minister of the day. One person totally in the picture regarding their performance in the collection of military intelligence is the defence minister.

A B Vajpayee, the prime minister at the time of the Kargil conflict, and George Fernandes, the defence minister, both denied allegations of intelligence failure immediately after the war was over.

Whom should we believe -- Vajpayee and Fernandes or General Malik?

( For all the Golf practice all we got was Tiger in the woods)

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 May 2006 21:43

CPrakash wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:well Shiv - you are right, however - i would like to see UCAV drones flying a grid pattern over sensitive areas almost permanently. Certainly once intrusions have taken place, we will also need an offensive capability. We cannot hermetically seal the border afterall
Who the 'eck will pay for the development of UCAVs and the flying over gridpatterns permanently.. lets talk realistic things here not pipe dreams.

not all war tech has to come with an unkil size bill

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 05 May 2006 22:10

nbagga wrote:I don't understand one thing.. Why did we not use our much talked about Mi-24/35 "force". I know I would be fired upon by folks saying that the air is too thin at such heights and a big bird like Mi 24/35 can not operate at those heights. Then my next question would be what about the Lancers and Cheetah/Chetaks that have been retro fitted with the rocket pods and machine guns.

Helicopters, mountains and Stingers don't make for a happy combination (for the helicopter, at least). Recall what happened to a Mi-17 on 28 May 1999 in Kargil; the air force stopped its direct helicopter assaults thereafter.

The Pakistanis appear confident that they can repel an airborne assault in Kashmir using their relatively dense AD system.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 06 May 2006 01:59

Lalmohan wrote:
RayC - I understand the need to act quickly, but initially it seems attacks were carried out in daylight. Is that really correct? It seems that most attacks switched to night time after a while...

What happened right in the beginning when the intrusion was discovered would not fall under the ambit of "attack".

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 May 2006 02:26

Amitabh wrote:
nbagga wrote:I don't understand one thing.. Why did we not use our much talked about Mi-24/35 "force". I know I would be fired upon by folks saying that the air is too thin at such heights and a big bird like Mi 24/35 can not operate at those heights. Then my next question would be what about the Lancers and Cheetah/Chetaks that have been retro fitted with the rocket pods and machine guns.
Helicopters, mountains and Stingers don't make for a happy combination (for the helicopter, at least). Recall what happened to a Mi-17 on 28 May 1999 in Kargil; the air force stopped its direct helicopter assaults thereafter.

That Mi-17 didnt have a working flares system. And from first hand accounts at the time, it was downed only after many MANPADs launches against the entire group (the target chopper was partly "covered" by other choppers and their flares- not a perfect solution, but the crew signed off on the risk and went ahead). After this- all IAF choppers received a standardised self protection suite - and the newer Mi-17's have dedicated strike capability, including guided missiles. If anything, the IAF has beefed up its Mi-17's attack role. I would hesitate to take Kargil as the be-all and end-all for the IAF and the PAF- both forces have gone through substantial modernisation since then, especially the former.

The Pakistanis appear confident that they can repel an airborne assault in Kashmir using their relatively dense AD system.

Quite possibly; an airborne assault would entail slow moving choppers (during the landing- drop off/ take off phase) and hence would be comparatively easy targets. However, the same cant be said of others.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 06 May 2006 03:12

Amitabh wrote:
nbagga wrote:I don't understand one thing.. Why did we not use our much talked about Mi-24/35 "force". I know I would be fired upon by folks saying that the air is too thin at such heights and a big bird like Mi 24/35 can not operate at those heights. Then my next question would be what about the Lancers and Cheetah/Chetaks that have been retro fitted with the rocket pods and machine guns.
Helicopters, mountains and Stingers don't make for a happy combination (for the helicopter, at least). Recall what happened to a Mi-17 on 28 May 1999 in Kargil; the air force stopped its direct helicopter assaults thereafter.

The Pakistanis appear confident that they can repel an airborne assault in Kashmir using their relatively dense AD system.

Airborne assault or airlanded ops?

In the mountain heights where the objectives are, there are hardly any helipads and whatever there is, it is next to the posts and possibly one helicopter can land.

Paradropping as a force on a hilltop is not feasible.

Daylight landing is impossible!

I hope I have understood the context or else my apologies.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 May 2006 10:43

RayC, SHBO was impossible for us given the hostile MANPADS environment. But did SSG troops face the same constraint? AFAIK, Pakistan Army Air Corps helicopters were very active in Indian terretory before the IAF came into the picture and later at least once conducted a mission with SSG as well.

karan · Post by **karan** » 07 May 2006 20:29

Aditya G wrote:RayC, SHBO was impossible for us given the hostile MANPADS environment. But did SSG troops face the same constraint? AFAIK, Pakistan Army Air Corps helicopters were very active in Indian terretory before the IAF came into the picture and later at least once conducted a mission with SSG as well.

Aditya
Thats how one of the Ammo Dumps were blown away and we had to spent a fortune to replenish supplies.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 May 2006 20:35

karan - aditya

source ??

otherwise it is just outlandish rumour mongering

karan · Post by **karan** » 07 May 2006 21:12

Surya
Source lies within the first 3 weeks of kargil. Here is the link

http://www.indiavarta.com/kargil/kargil ... 0514224118
http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story ... e_continue

Next time find your own sources, don't question others information.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 07 May 2006 22:09

karan wrote:

Next time find your own sources, don't question others information.

Karan,

Its customary to quote sources when asked for - granted Surya could have put his question better, But asking others "to find your own sources - dont question me" is not going to win any supporters here.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 May 2006 22:29

karan wrote:
Aditya G wrote:RayC, SHBO was impossible for us given the hostile MANPADS environment. But did SSG troops face the same constraint? AFAIK, Pakistan Army Air Corps helicopters were very active in Indian terretory before the IAF came into the picture and later at least once conducted a mission with SSG as well.
Aditya
Thats how one of the Ammo Dumps were blown away and we had to spent a fortune to replenish supplies.

Karan

you agreed with aditya's claim that Pak helos were able to support SSG (ie insert) in indian territory and thats how the ammo dump was blown up.

your links indicate that ot ws shelling that blew the dumps up.

So I repeat, please indicate a source for your assertion that Pak helos were able to operate and support SSG within Indian territory.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 07 May 2006 23:05

Per Jasjit Singh, the Pakis lost two choppers in Kargil due to non combat reasons. And at least on one occasion (per first hand info which several BRites heard) a Mirage pilot saw a chopper across the LOC, but it slipped back across before he could make up his mind to knock it down.

Of course- there is nothing in this about any shelling or ammo dumps by the SSG ..all that appears to be a flight of fancy imho.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 May 2006 01:48

Surya,

The Pakistan Army Air Corps operated in Indian territory before the invasion was still discovered. The air intrusions stopped once the IAF entered the battlezone. Sample this

When asked to comment on why the Pakistan Air Force didn't enter the fray, Wg Cdr Nambiar said that the IAF had a very significant numerical advantage. "But there was the odd Pakistani helicopter moving around. In fact I could easily have shot the chopper down, but it just managed to re-enter Pakistani air space". Indeed the only time when the ace pilot appeared low was when he ruminated on the missed opportunity. "I should have shot the helicopter down.. I'll regret this miss till my dying day .."

Gaurav Sawant has written of one incident when our Para SF team were beaten in a counterattack by SSG air-dropped by chopper.

Indian Ammo dump in Kargil was blown up due to shelling and not by SSG. this was possible only due to effective OP established by Pakistanis on Indian mountains, these spotters could be SSG or could be arty officers too.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 May 2006 02:41

Ok so you are wrong

1. The odd PAF helo scurrying in and out - isnot an operationper se. And definitely not an support ops for troops etc.

2. The Pak helo - SSG action was inside PAK terrirtory. An SF unit was sent in on a raid and got daylighted. The SSG unit was dropped on a high point in Gultari. It was not inside Indian territory

And karan simply piggy backed on your incorrect story.

This is how outrageous stories start.

Before you know the jokers from the unmnetionable forum will use this to say how great their SSG was.

We should be careful about our postings.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 08 May 2006 02:46

Ramana,

As the one person on the forum I'm aware of who was at the Monterey conference, I can only give you my recollection. I do not believe the issue of Chiense troop movements was a prominent one - in fact, I don't remember it being mentioned at all, but it's been four years and my recollection could be faulty.

However - General Malik was present and a very vocal participant at the conference. If it had been a major issue at that time, he had ample opportunity to voice his concerns. Something may have happened. It may have affected the decision of the highest levels of the Indian Army leadership. If that was the case, though, it wasn't a prominent issue at the conference - at least to the best of my recollection.

In theory, there's still a book coming out with the products of the conference. I just don't know what's happening with it.

Tim

karan · Post by **karan** » 08 May 2006 03:05

Surya wrote:Ok so you are wrong

1. The odd PAF helo scurrying in and out - isnot an operationper se. And definitely not an support ops for troops etc.

2. The Pak helo - SSG action was inside PAK terrirtory. An SF unit was sent in on a raid and got daylighted. The SSG unit was dropped on a high point in Gultari. It was not inside Indian territory

And karan simply piggy backed on your incorrect story.

This is how outrageous stories start.

Before you know the jokers from the unmnetionable forum will use this to say how great their SSG was.

We should be careful about our postings.

Surya
Devil is in detail. No Paki Worth his salt will ever acknowledge SSG Operation, that will blow a hole in their assertions, they have maintained and still do, it was all mujahideen's supported by Paki Army. Their combat skills however tell a different story. Regardless of how much it may hurt your feelings that Indian Soldiers got beat, initially they had upper hand. If IA ever acknowledges that its Para's and Ghatak's were beaten by SSG can you imagine the fall out of this.
I don't need to piggy back anyone, I have provided public sources, confidential info is still confidential, no matter how much you try to rile. You are entitled to your opinion and conclusions.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 08 May 2006 03:35

karan wrote:
Surya
Devil is in detail. No Paki Worth his salt will ever acknowledge SSG Operation, that will blow a hole in their assertions, they have maintained and still do, it was all mujahideen's supported by Paki Army. Their combat skills however tell a different story. Regardless of how much it may hurt your feelings that Indian Soldiers got beat, initially they had upper hand. If IA ever acknowledges that its Para's and Ghatak's were beaten by SSG can you imagine the fall out of this.
I don't need to piggy back anyone, I have provided public sources, confidential info is still confidential, no matter how much you try to rile. You are entitled to your opinion and conclusions.

Karan,

You will have to do better than personal opinions or guesses when coming up with wild theories. The public sources i know and have read mention that the dump was hit by shelling. You would need something better than your opinion to prove that the SSG blew up the dump. So please, if you have solid sources - then lets discuss this further, but if it is only your theory/guess, there is no point in this. This is reverse Psy-Ops at best (or a 'self goal' )

I agree with Surya, that coming up with these theories that favour the otherside without any solid evidence is also irresponsible. Things have a way of getting around on the net, and todays theories come back tommorrow as some well established fact somewhere.

Nambiars quote of a chopper operating in our territory suggests that these were very close to the LoC and not an indepth incursion.

-Jagan

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 May 2006 03:56

I myself do not place too much faith in this site, however:

The 9 Para (SF) took active part in the 1999 Kargil conflict, where they conducted a number of raids to remove a combined force of Pakistani special forces (SSG), light infantry and militants who had infiltrated across the border and had dug in on the mountaintops

Para Commandos

Wow, that is right out of BR

karan · Post by **karan** » 08 May 2006 04:17

Jagan Boss
You are absolutely right.
How about this link. A small mention but worthwhile notable though. I don't know how much more clear I have to be on it, without getting thrown in jail. Don't forget to read the ingenuity of Indians in launching Sear Harriers from Merchant Ships. Lets give due credit to Indian Navy during that time. IN was pro-active, fearless, with bold plan. Once again we missed the opportunity to finish the unifinished agenda.

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/ka ... kargil.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... gil-99.htm
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /arya.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ikhye.html

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 08 May 2006 04:21

Jagan, you are right about the chopper being close to the border or on it, thats what Nambiar said.

Surya is right in the "daylighting" incident- it was discussed on the forum before. The Paras hardly had the upper hand, they were caught in the open so I dunno what myths are being peddled here.

Also, the Arty dump at Kargil explosion was remarked as a "hand of God" incident- it played little role in the actual conflict, as replacements were quickly rushed in. Take a look at the amount used per battle- there was certainly no holding back in terms of firepower there.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 May 2006 05:04

karan - you are changing the topic

You made a very specific comment ie. Pak inserted SSG into Indian territory and Pak inserted SSG blew up the dump.

No proof for either.

The Indian SF is not that kiddish to feel that they were beat by the SSG. Their unit got sent on a stupid mission and got daylighted. If they had a portable SAM that day, that Pak help would have been introuble. Still they carried all their dead and wounded all the way back into Indian territory IN SPITE of being caught in the open.

On the other hand the SSG counter attacks to take back the heights were beaten back.

I am sure the odd SSG gets in and does some damage - hell we have caught them in J&K in the 90s.

BTW in the mountains it is not hard for helos and fighters to flit in and out of each others territory.

karan · Post by **karan** » 08 May 2006 05:23

Surya wrote:karan - you are changing the topic

You made a very specific comment ie. Pak inserted SSG into Indian territory and Pak inserted SSG blew up the dump.

No proof for either.

The Indian SF is not that kiddish to feel that they were beat by the SSG. Their unit got sent on a stupid mission and got daylighted. If they had a portable SAM that day, that Pak help would have been introuble. Still they carried all their dead and wounded all the way back into Indian territory IN SPITE of being caught in the open.

On the other hand the SSG counter attacks to take back the heights were beaten back.

I am sure the odd SSG gets in and does some damage - hell we have caught them in J&K in the 90s.

BTW in the mountains it is not hard for helos and fighters to flit in and out of each others territory.

Surya
I am not changing the topic, I am trying to give you information. If you don't like it, no skin off my nose, suit yourself. Neither you or I can change the past, if it hurts your feelings.......sorry.

I am sure the odd SSG gets in and does some damage - hell we have caught them in J&K in the 90s

And what a wonderful job you have done. FYI Kargil happened in 90's. They have learned from every mistake, we have gloated over our victories. If you think Kargil will not happen again, think again. This time it will be worse than before. If you are into One Upmanship match, You win, Enough said. I will not be responding any more to your queries, please redirect your queries to Army HQ, RK Puram, New Delhi.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 08 May 2006 05:37

karan wrote:Jagan Boss
You are absolutely right.
How about this link. A small mention but worthwhile notable though. I don't know how much more clear I have to be on it, without getting thrown in jail. Don't forget to read the ingenuity of Indians in launching Sear Harriers from Merchant Ships. Lets give due credit to Indian Navy during that time. IN was pro-active, fearless, with bold plan. Once again we missed the opportunity to finish the unifinished agenda.

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/ka ... kargil.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... gil-99.htm
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /arya.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ikhye.html

Karan,

I am not sure what the links illustrate - the SSG was used? Yes, and Nobody is disputing that.

but was it used against the Kargil / Dras Ammo dump as you theorise? I havent seen anything here that supports or even hints at what you are saying.

-Jagan

karan · Post by **karan** » 08 May 2006 05:44

Jagan Boss
Your relentless pursuit of information is admirable. Kudos to you. Sorry for not taking the bait. Like I said before, devil is in details.

CPrakash · Post by **CPrakash** » 08 May 2006 05:59

Karan, If you cant share sources then dont post on public internet forums and expect to be believed.

We have too many kiddos going around saying 'my mamas unguls best friend has a pan shop in kargil and he heard from a local source that...'

you get the drift.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 08 May 2006 06:31

JCage wrote: That Mi-17 didnt have a working flares system. And from first hand accounts at the time, it was downed only after many MANPADs launches

According to the Hindu from that time, there were at least 10 Stingers launched against that Mi-17 alone.

Gaurav Sawant has written of one incident when our Para SF team were beaten in a counterattack by SSG air-dropped by chopper.

IIRC, it was vice-versa, in his book.