Kargil War Thread - IV

[Vivek_A]

If we drop our this policy , Pakis will raise the chante of nucler war in south asia and they will find many supporters in US .

Let them. They're bluffing. No way the people who control Pakistan will put their own well-being in jeopardy. All this talk about dying for allah is bluster. When backed in a corner, the RAPE will do whatever it can to protect its own interests.

Another thing is dropping NFU policy will need a lot of clarifications

Dropping the NFU means adopting no policy at all and making sure the pakis get the message that India will use nuclear weapons first as and when it things fit.

If we drop this NFU , pakistan too will get close to using Nuke more probably through some jehadis , giving them one more and more deadly card to play against india , so it will be utterly foolish to change this stance .

The Pakis don't threaten the nukes at every given opportunity now?

As for them issuing the threats there's a saying '' a barking dog never bites''

Which is why they won't risk a first strike that would bring about a devastating second strike.

[Vivek_A]

DRC report. Take it with a pinch of salt.

Kargil military inquiry proposed Musharraf’s court-martial: PML-N

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) said on Friday that a military inquiry into the Kargil operation in 1999 had recommended the court-martial of General Pervez Musharraf.

“Nawaz Sharif had constituted a military inquiry committee that recommended the court-martial of General Musharraf, but the general overthrew the government,â€

[Ved]

[quote="Vivek_A"]DRC report. Take it with a pinch of salt.

Kargil military inquiry proposed Musharraf’s court-martial: PML-N

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) said on Friday that a military inquiry into the Kargil operation in 1999 had recommended the court-martial of General Pervez Musharraf.

“Nawaz Sharif had constituted a military inquiry committee that recommended the court-martial of General Musharraf, but the general overthrew the government,â€

[satya]

Vivek,

Dropping a NFU policy and replacing it with 'no policy' at all make things more murkier not only in indo-pak context but also in indo-china context .

So far we already have one not so clear stance of '' minimum strategic deterrence '' and add to it another policy void doesnt seem like a good idea cause:

1] how will u define out no policy stance to Chinese ? are we going to tell them tht with them we have a separate nuclear threshold deterrence ?

2] Do u think Paki Establishment will think tht we have brought down our nuclear threshold by dropping NFU , if i am not wrong as per current views and immediate views after winding up of Op. Prakaram , not only Paki peoples but Paki Establishment believed tht more than their Nuclear detterence it was their conventional deterrence tht stopped us attacking them , and with this sort of thinking do u think they will understand our new No Policy at all even if told in so many words through formal and back channels they wont believe it .

3] Wht will be the world reaction to our this stance , another round of clarifications on part of GoI ? Wont Western Media [ a very powerful psycho tool] make India look like sort of monster ?

4] Let's say inspite of all this we did it and sooner or later Pakis will chose to test our resolve throught some another daring attack on India Soil , and it find neither is India using any conventional mean nor non conventional mean , it will lead to loss of face and make them more daring in their next terrorist venture ?

5] I wouldnt count tht much Vivek on this belief tht Paki Establishment and the people connected with it would back down when got in corner , remember they r muslims and above tht they have a die hard hatred against us aka Hindus , if they will go down they will take us down with us for sure , i am saying this cuz of my interaction with people from all walks of life from Pak.

6]Instead of dropping NFU , India can make it public tht any attack of WMD by any jihadi group on India soil , Pak will be held responsible and action will be taken against it .

7] Some sort of Pre-emtive Strike on Pak Nuke facilities be made in near future around fall of Mushy , however it will require real pin pointed intell but tht wont be tough to get considering the way name and place of terrorists killed in J&K are found by Indian intel through their sources in Pak , it can be made to work.

Bottom line Vivek , for any of these things including NO Policy at all require strong will and guts in our top leadership till then nothing can change .

[Vipul]

Ill-conceived planning by Musharraf led to second major military defeat in Kargil:PML-N.

"General Musharraf was summoned in cabinet meeting on June and he told that China had advised to withdraw Mujahideen from Kargil."

"At the behest of General Musharraf efforts were launched to steer passage for return of troops from Kargil". (the GUBO General's "Tactical Brilliance" leads to them begging Uncle Sam for safe passge for the Puki soldiers ).

[pmund]

PTI story from Pak
Islamabad, Aug 6 (PTI) A Pakistan military inquiry committee which probed the Kargil debacle had recommended "court martial" of General Pervez Musharraf but he overthrew then Nawaz Sharif government in 1999 and "stole" the report before it was implemented, claimed a White Paper on Kargil released by Sharif's PML-N party.

Sharif had "constituted a military inquiry committee that recommended court martial" of Army Chief Musharraf, but the General, now also the President, overthrew then government and "stole" the report from the Prime Minister's House "to save his face," Joint Secretary of Pakistan Muslim League-N (PMN-N) Siddiqul Farooq, who released the 100-page 'White Paper' yesterday, was quoted in the media here as saying.

Anticipating court-martial in the wake of the Kargil debacle, Farooq said, Musharraf overthrew the Sharif government on October 12, 1999 to save his "neck."
***********************************

Musharraf apparently carries a laser-sighted gun on his hip!! Guess the 'thief' thinks he is john rambo.

[Vivek_A]

5] I wouldnt count tht much Vivek on this belief tht Paki Establishment and the people connected with it would back down when got in corner , remember they r muslims and above tht they have a die hard hatred against us aka Hindus , if they will go down they will take us down with us for sure , i am saying this cuz of my interaction with people from all walks of life from Pak.

They're bluffing. You need to understand that TSP is run by the RAPE, a species that cares deeply about it's own survival.

[negi]

7] Some sort of Pre-emtive Strike on Pak Nuke facilities be made in near future around fall of Mushy , however it will require real pin pointed intell but tht wont be tough to get considering the way name and place of terrorists killed in J&K are found by Indian intel through their sources in Pak , it can be made to work

I would like to differ on that 'Satya' , I think it's just too late for India to carry out a Pre-emptive strike on Pak nuke facilities and at the same time escape unscathed.It was a very good option in the eighties and even in early ninties, for those Puki's didnt have neither the N-bomb nor the long range missiles.IAF is quite capable of executing a surgical strike and take out their N-facilities ,however what about their missiles tipped with WMD(although I am apprehensive about Paki's having the operational knowledge of miniaturising a warhead to a size small enough to fit a missile)? but Chinki's might have shipped some to them.If at all N-option is to be used then we will have to wipe out their entire military installations and forward positions along with N-facilities,and I am afraid this all will come at a price.

[Avinandan]

If at all N-option is to be used then we will have to wipe out their entire military installations and forward positions along with N-facilities,and I am afraid this all will come at a price.

Ideal option would be a series of electromagnetic attack.
But alternatively,we could destroy all the power transformers of the enemy. America did use graphite powder against some country (dont remember) to short circuit a set of important transformers, which resulted in heavy load in other transformer disabling them one by one through chain reaction within a matter of minutes.Allthough this wont resolve all the problem all together but this would greatly hamper enemy countries retaliating option giving India to concentrate more on the critical threats only.

Any comments

[Jager]

India knew about Kargil in advance

[Apu]

Destroying power facilities would sure bog down the enemy installations and command and control..but mobile nuke launchers will still be active and so the threat remains. Also dont ask me how or what but just assuming the significance of such facilities it would make me think they have some back up power...some one enlighten us.

I think a pre-emptive strike is a long shot at the moment seeing the pakis have put a gun to their head and ours after the nuclear tests. Although i wonder if we can get away with knocking out that new reactor the pakis are building....once we've gone and knocked it out (along with the old facility nearby) it will set back their nuclear project by years....with regard to the aftemath...do you think Unkil or the EU will allow a nuclear war in south asia?

[negi]

India knew about Kargil in advance

Bah.... SOB Nawaz Sharif has clevery made this claim so as to put all the blame on MF and at the same time tried to project 'Kargil War' as a small border skirmish gone wrong.Who is the actual culprit is immaterial to Inda,what actually concerns me is the USA's clean chit to TSP and also a proclaimed partner in fight against terror.India would have to be ready to face tougher times ahead for now that both the neighbours are N-capable we would have to wage a diplomatic and economic war against the TSP and at the same time rebutting any attempts on LOC by the latter.

[pmund]

This ain't the middle-east, Unki sam ain't our uncle and India ain't israel. Forget a strike on Pak's new nuke reactor, our leaders aren't man enough to cross the LOC when attacked, doesnt matter if they sacrifice hundreds of young men in the process. I dont think the Pukis are stupid enough to use nukes. Future wars will still be fought with the bayonet.

[Jager]

I dont think the Pukis are stupid enough to use nukes.

The pukis comprise of the Army , The mullahs , The isi each vying with each other for control . which segment do you feel is not stupid enough ?

The paki army has repeatedly threatened to nuke india if we cross the LOC .

The mullahs / mujahideens just can't wait to do it .

The isi -Again has many factions within it . Some pro mullah , some pro american .

But two outta three is odds enough to prepare for a nuclear war ,

[Rien]

I have a question to ask. Whenever war with Pakistan is discussed, the Doves always tend to answer with: The Pakistanis are unpredictable psychos who will nuke India at the drop of a hat. This being so, doesn't this mean that, sooner or later, India will definately be nuked. After all, if they are unpredictable jehadis, they must attack India and trust in Allah.

If that is so, sooner is much better than later. The more nuclear weapons and missiles Pakistan has, the more damage it can do to India. If the Pakistanis are as mentally unstable as the Doves say, we are much better off nuking them now rather than later. If we hit them first, they will not have anything of an arsenal left to hit India back with, even if we can't gurantee to take out every single warhead.

[Vivek_A]

I dont think the Pukis are stupid enough to use nukes.

The pukis comprise of the Army , The mullahs , The isi each vying with each other for control . which segment do you feel is not stupid enough ?

The army generals who've got millions of $$ worth of land..land that will be worthless if it glows in the dark.

[ramana]

Jaswant Singh in his book says that he proposed to Talbott a joint Indo-US study group on Kargil but nothing came out of it. I guess the Monterey Institute study of Kargil was a case of US running with the idea. Could also be done to prevent India from learning too much of what went on from US sources. And protect TSP H&D as they wouldnt comingle with SDRE Indians.

[Jager]

The army generals who've got millions of $$ worth of land..land that will be worthless if it glows in the dark.

As opposed to having an Indian Tank parked in their frontyard .That would do wonders for the real estate value . I think the generals would prefer the nuke as no one really stays in the lands alloted to them (near the border areas ) far away from the city , instead they sub-let it out to others in a feudal fashion .

I still think the Pakis would look to break the back of an Indian Advance by trying to nuke them when they penetrate paki territory . They can claim later on that they detontated a nuke over their own territory .

[Apu]

there will b no later......India will nuke their brains out thereafter....it will only be india who will be left to do the talking even in the current military balance

[pmund]

The mullahs may nuke India but not the army or the govt (well, u cant differentiate the two). They know all too well the absolutely dreadful consequences of India's counterattack. Look at any Pak map and count the number of big and small dams concentrated in a small area in the northern half. If India nukes Pak, it's doomsday. Besdies, i agree with Rien and Vivek. The generals who own millions of $$ worth of land have too much to live for. They are bluffing. Whatever else Mush is, he is not an idiot.

[Manne]

Sorry to butt in but please do not bring peripheral discussion into a very focused thread. BRF has hashed these things a number of times.

[pmund]

Point taken. But wasn't Pak's rattling its nuke sabre a bluff during the kargil war?

[Lalmohan]

Point taken. But wasn't Pak's rattling its nuke sabre a bluff during the kargil war?

it made Clinton blow a fuse and slap Nawazbhai around a few times... so you can draw your own conclusions

i don't think it was a bluff - those morons don't understand what nuclear weapons are about. they think its just a bigger bum

[Jager]

A paki who saw it coming

[Vivek_A]

I know BR has some panga with Force but this is from DRC

Indian mag predicts war along LoC

* Army considering punitive raids in AJK to counter ‘attack by infiltration’ strategy

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Forget back channel diplomacy, if the Indian army has its way it will unleash a new “war doctrineâ€

[Jagan]

Guys, were there any stories / reports from Kargil that mention indian army choppers encountering pakistani Puma choppers? I vaguely remember reading about it.

Links to these stories will be appreciated

[pmund]

Clinton slapping Namazbhai!! Wonderful!!

[Jager]

Links to these stories will be appreciated

In Batalik sector a Pakistan Army Aloette and a Puma helicopter with an underslung load were sighted. Three igla shoulder fired missiles were fired at them without success .



http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/kargil-summary1.html


Would you be referring to these jagan ?

[Jagan]

Links to these stories will be appreciated

In Batalik sector a Pakistan Army Aloette and a Puma helicopter with an underslung load were sighted. Three igla shoulder fired missiles were fired at them without success .

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/kargil-summary1.html


Would you be referring to these jagan ?

Thanks, its probably this - but since it mentions iglas being fired, it meant ground troops . I was searching for an instance where an indian army cheetah encountered pa helicopters.

[karan]

India Dropping NFU...Yea Right! This cat is out of bag..within current paradigm...
India does not have the spine, the muscle, the guts, the b@lls, the Legs, the strength to stand up for her own interests. There is so much political uncertainity right now, no body is incharge yet everyone is incharge. Commies are smelling blood that they can be in power at center if they play their cards right, Jack A$$ Vajpayee and his cronies want to destroy everything to score political points. Senile, Lost his Mind, ManMohan Singh crying behind big glasses like a little kid. He does not have mental strength, the resolve, the charisma to lead this nation. Few Eons ago when congress was not even in power, I wrote about this F@g Natwar Singh, finally things have come out.

[mirajuddin]

does anyone really know the real casualities during kargil?
it seems pakistan lost 600 men and india 750?also read about mig29s locking onto f16s can anybody explain?

[SSridhar]

mirajuddin,
it seems pakistan lost 600 men . . .

600 men, eh ?

[Jagan]

does anyone really know the real casualities during kargil?
it seems pakistan lost 600 men and india 750?also read about mig29s locking onto f16s can anybody explain?

Indian lost 526 men and their names are all on the net - incl addresses of the next of kin. I would like to see something from Pakistan on similar lines

[mirajuddin]

jagan point taken
anything about mig29s and f16s

[Manne]

I would like to see something from Pakistan on similar lines

Let me do a JUmrao and say

Zalak dikhlaja.

[mirajuddin]

manne and others
please maintain the standard of the thread

[shiv]

it seems pakistan lost 600

May I ask exactly where you pulled this figure out of? I note that you are asking people to maintain the "standard" on here. One way of doing that yourself is to quote refernces.

Do you want to see references to Pakistan having lost 3000 men and the whole Northern Light Infantry being wiped out. These references exist - mainly from mian Nawaz Sharif.

On the other hand, if you look at historical statements made by the Pakistani army duing the war and their reluctance to accept bodies - you could say that Pakistan lost NO men

Either way the figure 600 is suspect. Where did YOU get it?

[shiv]

From the Weekly Independent
Vol 1, No.37, Regd No CPL-588, March 07-13, 2002
Interview wih Nawaz Sharif

The Kargil issue is another inevitable topic when we discuss the Nawaz-Musharraf relations. "As a PM I wasn't taken into confidence on the Kargil issue. I was told that there wouldn't be any problem or loss of life in the conflict. The attack of only Mujahideen would be sufficient and the Army would not be part of the attack. But when the battle began, the whole Northern Infantry was blown up and 2,700 soldiers were martyred and hundreds were injured. The death toll exceeds even that of the 1965 and 1971 full-scale wars. To my question, Gen Pervez said that India was bombing extensively. He said: 'Sahib! We didn't know India would launch so severe attack". When the Washington accord was being signed, the Indian had got half of the posts evacuated and was advancing, Nawaz said.

[shiv]

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
Anatomy of folly: not for robust souls
By Ayaz Amir

Pakistan suffered more casualties in the Kargil operation than in any of its previous wars with India. But as a reflection of the embarrassment this conflict arouses, the precise number of the dead and wounded remains a closely-guarded secret.

[shiv]

From Time Magazine

Time.com

WORLD
JULY 12, 1999 VOL. 154 NO. 2

How I Started a War
A Pakistani soldier's account of the Kashmir battle


He spent 77 days in Indian territory, fighting and suffering at elevations of up to 18,000 ft. He is a Pakistani soldier, and this is his account of the combat now under way in Kashmir. India and Pakistan have fought over the region since 1947, when Pakistan became a separate nation. This spring the conflict flamed again. Pakistani officials insist it was started by India, but this soldier's story suggests Pakistan was first to move. The 30-year-old soldier returned to Pakistan in mid-June for reasons he wouldn't specify. Badly sunburned from exposure, he spoke to TIME on condition of anonymity.

In February I was ordered to cross the Line of Control and climb some mountains that the Indians controlled. My commanding officers would not allow me to take my rifle. I was against going to an Indian hill without a weapon, but I saw everybody who was being sent across the Loc was going there empty-handed. We were told it was for the sake of secrecy. It took us three days of walking and climbing to reach the Indian posts. We found they were empty. Our job was to prepare makeshift bunkers.

The first five days were hell. The M-17 military helicopter did not come with our supplies. We just had Energile [a protein-enriched food pack used in high-altitude warfare] and ice. Sometimes we ate ice with sugar.

The skirmishes with the Indians started in May. [By then, weapons had been delivered to the men.] In the early days we mowed down many of them. Those Indians came like ants. First you see four, and you kill them. Then there are 10, then 50, then 100 and then 400. Our fingers got tired of shooting at them. Sometimes they came in such large numbers we were afraid of using up all our ammunition. There is no instant resupply, so you have to be careful. You could see lots of bodies strewn down below or in the gorges. We also suffered a lot of casualties, many more than what officials in Pakistan are claiming. During my stay up there, 17 of my friends died while fighting the Indians.

There is so much exchange of fire that you cannot eat the ice now or drink the water, which is laced with cordite. Soldiers are facing stomach problems because of this. We had no proper bunkers, so we dug a 16-ft. tunnel into the snow. When the Indian shells started landing on us, we would crawl into this tunnel for safety. You don't get enough space to spread your legs in the tents. You always sleep sitting up. Sometimes there is so much firing, you cannot relieve yourself even if you want to.

On the ridges now we have disposable rocket launchers, surface-to-air missiles and machine guns, including antiaircraft guns. On one occasion I was positioned on a mountain facing the Drass-Kargil highway. It's fun to target the Indian convoys.

Our officers are very strict. I saw a young soldier die in front of me because of altitude sickness. This soldier came from the plains. He fell sick soon after coming up. He offered our commanding officer 200,000 rupees [about $4,000] to let him go down, but the offer was refused. He died four days later. We didn't know his name.

If you die up in the mountains, there is no way to lift your body and take it down. The men who are fighting on those ridges know that they are in a hole from which they cannot come out alive. There are a rare few like me who somehow by fate got the chance to leave the mountains. END