Kargil War Thread - IV

shiv
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Postby shiv » 30 Jul 2006 19:44

Napalm needs a lot of air to burn. Any studies of how napalm performs at 18000 feet? All descriptions of Siachen speak of weak, slow burning kerosene flames from lack of Oxygen.

Burning Napalm would flow down slopes so I guess it would not be useful to try and hit Bakis sitting on mountaintops if Indian soldiers were crawling up slopes.

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Postby shiv » 30 Jul 2006 19:49

gauravs wrote:
I can't believe that the IAF did not have plans to fight at top of the world!!! Simply can't believe it, specially after the Siachen operations.


Bugger what the IAF thought or did. NO air force in the world has tried what the IAF ended up trying to figure out in Kargil and other Air Forces are learning from teh IAF experience.

In an all out war Kargil would form such a small part of the overall scene that the IAFs operationsl plans would hardly have allowed the csort of resources that it was able to put into teh limited Kargil war.

in many ways, Pakistan was faced with a Heads you win, tails I lose situation" Bakistan did not want an all out war and bet on winning a localised one. But the local narure of the war enabled India to concentrate its resources more than it could have done in teh all out war that Pakistan wanted to avoid.

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Postby Ved » 30 Jul 2006 21:29

RayC wrote:Napalm bombs when dropped along low level attack profile, slide along the ground and incinerate the area as it slides along and also spreads. (I have not seen a napalm strike to be honest, but I have seen such attacks in training films).

One wonders how effective it would be on mountain tops and along spines if it has to slide and incinerate.

High level drops would have no guarantee of hits.

Maybe an airforce chap can tell us.


Right. So one would need to think very carefully about where to use the weapon - the ridge at Tololing, may have been a good place!

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Postby Ved » 30 Jul 2006 21:32

shiv wrote:Napalm needs a lot of air to burn. Any studies of how napalm performs at 18000 feet? All descriptions of Siachen speak of weak, slow burning kerosene flames from lack of Oxygen.

Burning Napalm would flow down slopes so I guess it would not be useful to try and hit Bakis sitting on mountaintops if Indian soldiers were crawling up slopes.


So much the better, as the rarified air would make it more effective (while it could stille burn). Napalm kills not just by burning, but, like a FAE, by O2 starvation.

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Postby Jager » 30 Jul 2006 22:58

Ray sir ,

An aiforce chaps perspective :

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/may/31kash8.htm

An Excerpt :

A few hundred well dispersed infiltrators do not really provide a very good target for air power. Worse, conventional weapons such as free fall high explosive bombs and strafing attacks with rockets and machine guns are not likely to give the desired results. The enemy are also equipped with the Stinger, the world's best shoulder fired Surface-to-Air Missile. There are, thus, tremendous limitations on the use of air power in the target area under discussion.

The need of the hour is the Precision Guided Munitions -- mainly laser and television guided bombs and fire and forget stand-off weapons with appropriate warheads, especially napalm, which is ideal to flush out well dug-in troops and cluster bombs which cover a larger area in destruction pattern (a cluster bomb carries a large number of small bomblets which spread over a large area).

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Postby gauravs » 30 Jul 2006 23:07

shiv wrote:
gauravs wrote:
I can't believe that the IAF did not have plans to fight at top of the world!!! Simply can't believe it, specially after the Siachen operations.


Bugger what the IAF thought or did. NO air force in the world has tried what the IAF ended up trying to figure out in Kargil and other Air Forces are learning from teh IAF experience.

In an all out war Kargil would form such a small part of the overall scene that the IAFs operationsl plans would hardly have allowed the csort of resources that it was able to put into teh limited Kargil war.

in many ways, Pakistan was faced with a Heads you win, tails I lose situation" Bakistan did not want an all out war and bet on winning a localised one. But the local narure of the war enabled India to concentrate its resources more than it could have done in teh all out war that Pakistan wanted to avoid.


Does not make sense, Kargil is a strategically important location, just because it is a small theater would not reduce its significance.

Let's take the NE theater, all along the Indo-Chinese border are areas with similar heights (slightly lower maybe) where the IAF will have to fight, don't tell me the IAF did not have analysis of bomb trajectories there. If it did it would be very reasonable to use those to estimate the point of impacts.

Plus, computer simulations of these bomb trajectories would be pretty straightforward, given all the computing expertise both ISRO, DRDO, HAL have.

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Postby Jager » 30 Jul 2006 23:18

Found this after some looking around , Don't know how authentic tribune's source was !

Napalm attack on infiltrators




Napalm attack on infiltrators
From Girja Shankar Kaura
Tribune News Service

NEW DELHI, June 2 — Going into the eighth day of air strikes, the Indian Air Force (IAF) today took to intensive measures, pounding the last few positions of the infiltrators with extremely deadly napalm bombs in the Dras and Batalik sub sectors of Kargil in Jammu and Kashmir, even as the Indian troops evicted the intruders from some more heights pushing them further back to the LoC in the process.

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Postby Jager » 30 Jul 2006 23:21

'We delivered thousands and thousands of pounds of bombs. Only two didn't explode,' said an air force officer.

'How many of them contained petroleum jelly?' I asked.

'None,' he replied, giving me a long look. 'We don't use those things.'

In the early days of the war, a senior army officer at Army HQ tipped me off.

'The air force is going to use a bit of napalm tomorrow,' he said. Officially at least, it never happened


http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/kargil-chowdhury.html

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Postby John Snow » 31 Jul 2006 00:23

Ray>> throwing punches aside,
1)You have not refuted the charges leveled by your own (retired) colleague.
2)While soldiers win the war generals get to play Golf is universal truth, the fact that a crisis was brewing on hand did not heighten the awareness of the leadership is indicated in all reports at that time. (Some misguided elements, terrorists, non regulars, then changed to SSG to NLI finally culminated in ‘War Like situation’)
3)Even in civie life when there is crisis you get paged and one has to get into action right away, this did not happen.
About a little "healthy" Generals in uniform, must be a sign a prosperity, I didn’t ever see FM Sam Bhadur as healthy as our current crop of Generals , but that is the concern of MOD.

4)Not involving IAF a little earlier was a bitter pill to swallow and defacto admission of tactical failure.
No amount good penmanship in your post can camouflage the facts

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Postby CPrakash » 31 Jul 2006 01:11

John Snow wrote: 1)You have not refuted the charges leveled by your own (retired) colleague.


I am sorry Snow, but the same gent said Kargil was won because of Unkil, are you telling me that you believe that too (which goes contrary to our official BR policy) ;)

If yes, Please repeat the following in big clear caps

"I BELIEVE THAT KARGIL WAS WON MOSTLY BECAUSE OF UNCLE SAMS INVOLVEMENT AND PRESSURE" (because Lt Gen (Retd) Harwant Singh said so)

As a bonus, you will be feted out in the Pakdef forum as Hony member of Pakdef...

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Postby svinayak » 31 Jul 2006 02:00

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/ka ... events.pdf.


IMPORTANT EVENTS IN THE KARGIL CONFLICT
MAY 8-15
Army patrols detect intruders atop Kargil ridges. Army errs in saying 100 infiltrators are
occupying 25 km of Indian territory. Then realises Pak plan to cut Leh from Srinagar by
taking highway.
MAY 26
Army acknowledges that 600-800 Pak infiltrators are lodged in remote Kargil-Drass-
Batalik sectors. India surprises the foe,
ups ante with air strikes.
MAY 27
Disaster. MiG-27 flames out and Fl-Lt K. Nachiketa is taken POW by Pakistan. MiG-21
on a rescue mission hovers over LoC, shot down. Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja is killed in action.
Srinagar airport closed.
MAY 28
Mi-17 helicopter shot down. Four-man crew dead. IAF withdraws choppers. Fernandes
goofs up, says Sharif and ISI have no hand in Kargil operations.
MAY 31
Vajpayee says it's a "war-like situation" in Kargil. As casualties mount, army halts
suicidal missions and says its wants time for a proper build-up.
JUNE 1
Fernandes creates a controversy by offering "safe passage" to intruders. Diplomatic
efforts begin. France, US hold Pakistan responsible for intrusions in Kashmir and ask it to
respect the LoC. Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh ban PTV. This is a precursor to a nationwide ban.
JUNE 3
Pakistan hands over PoW Nachiketa to India in "goodwill gesture".
JUNE 6
Troops and logistics buildup sufficiently achieved. Army launches major offensives in
Kargil and Drass sectors. These are accompanied by air strikes. The idea is to keep the
crucial Srinagar-Leh highway free from any Pakistani threat.
JUNE 10
Pakistan returns mutilated bodies of six soldiers of Jat Regiment. India enraged.
JUNE 12
Deadlock at first crisis-time meeting between foreign ministers Jaswant Singh and Sartaj
Aziz in Delhi. Aziz firmly told intruders will have to go.

JUNE 13

Army captures crucial Tololing peak. War's turning point. Vajpayee visits Kargil amid
heavy shelling.
JUNE 15
Clinton urges Sharif to pull out from Kargil, praises India's restraint. Jaswant briefs
Chinese leaders.
JUNE 17-18
Brajesh Mishra goes to Geneva to meet G-8 leaders, gives Vajpayee's letter to Clinton
aide. Letter warns patience wearing thin. US promises action in "days, not weeks".
JUNE 20
Troops capture Point 5140, complete Tololing victory. G-8 wants intrusions to end.
JUNE 23-27
US General Zinni visits Islamabad. Urges Sharif to retreat. White House envoy in Delhi.
JUNE 28
Diplomatic noose tightens. Sharif dashes to China for support but gets no favourable
response. Cuts short visit, goes home.
JULY 4
Army recaptures Tiger Hill from intruders. Sharif meets Clinton in Washington. Is told to
pull out intruders immediately and get back to talks. Appears to agree. Joint statement
issued.
JULY 11
Pakistani infiltrators begin retreating from Kargil. India recaptures key peaks at Batalik,
sets deadline of July 16 for total withdrawal.
JULY 12
Sharif makes televised address explaining pullout and proposes talks with Vajpayee.
JULY 14
Vajpayee declares Operation Vijay a success. Government sets conditions for talks with
Pakistan. Wants it to recognise the LoC as sacrosanct and stop cross-border terrorism at
once

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Postby Ved » 31 Jul 2006 08:06

Jager wrote:Found this after some looking around , Don't know how authentic tribune's source was !

Napalm attack on infiltrators
DELHI, June 2 — Going into the eighth day of air strikes, the Indian Air Force (IAF) today took to intensive measures, pounding the last few positions of the infiltrators with extremely deadly napalm bombs in the Dras and Batalik sub sectors........


Wrong info. NO napalm was used.

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Postby adrian » 31 Jul 2006 09:21

I dont wish to join issue with Mr. Snow or Brig Ray ....all said and done Kargil was indeed a surprise for everyone all around .....a multitude of factors being responsible for it. We did come out victorious at the end ...that has never been in doubt but at what cost ? If one has talked to some of the junior (Maj's) and mid level (Cols) officers involved ...the perspective on the issue is somewhat different than from what one would hear from maybe the top brass.....for starters no one really heard about any two star or three star officer facing any enquiries however there were several reports of one star and below (junior) officers facing COI's and subsequent action......one is free to interpret that in anyway one wishes to...its a free world and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

What was and continues to be really important is to understand the lapses shortcomings and to learn from it so that something similar can/may be avoided in the near future if at all. Hopefully this has been done or is in the process. The Army fortunately or unfortunately has to follow the political diktat ....theirs is not to question why, their's is but to do and die!

However if there was something that I earnestly wish for is that individuals who eventually make it to the top rank remember the oath they took decades ago that the safety and welfare of the men they command comes before their own. I for one, am not too sure that is really the case these days ......71 did not happen too long ago ...and it doesnt seem like they make officers in the Manekshaw mold anymore ...one who would stand up for his men and for what he thought was right! There will be those who will argue that that was the army then ..this is now ...times have changed ........I agree the army like everything else has evolved but its culture,ethos,espirit de corps remain the same. So the question then becomes has it changed for the better ...I sure would hope so..... but then again your guess is as good as mine!

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Postby Jager » 31 Jul 2006 09:32

John Snow wrote:
While soldiers win the war generals get to play Golf is universal truth



Of which universe ? I don't suppose you've heard of any of the following names - rommel , keitel , patton , arora or sagat singh ...........

Do all the strategic issues and tactical plans magically form by themselves whilst the generals are playing golf ?? !

I don't understand how you can write off the entire arny leadership just because they were slow on the draw . Once the full extent of the infiltration was realised , the General's got their act together with artillery and airforce being asked to join the party .

And asking for air support is not tantamount to a tactical defeat for the army : in which case i don't think the americans have a single victory.

At best we can admit to an intelligence failure and a rather slow build up , but everything else theron was executed to perfection .

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Postby RayC » 31 Jul 2006 11:20

John Snow wrote:Ray>> throwing punches aside,
1)You have not refuted the charges leveled by your own (retired) colleague.


Please rewrite the specific charges in point form and I shall try to answer to the best of my ability.

2)While soldiers win the war generals get to play Golf is universal truth, the fact that a crisis was brewing on hand did not heighten the awareness of the leadership is indicated in all reports at that time. (Some misguided elements, terrorists, non regulars, then changed to SSG to NLI finally culminated in ‘War Like situation’)


It may interest you that even jawans are playing golf these days.

I am sure you will now state the army is really going to the dogs.

At the age of 55, what do you expect them to play? Rugby? Not all Generals play golf.

But I still don't understand what is bad about golf. I am sure it is a better form of exercise than charpoy bashing, pushing a pen or getting arthritis by over tapping the computer keys indulging in web discussions where some people indulge in their favourite hobby horse and I am not meaning you personally, please.

3)Even in civie life when there is crisis you get paged and one has to get into action right away, this did not happen.


Give me another one.

Seen enough of flood reliefs or even the earthquakes. Paged?Action right away? Really, Give me another one.

About a little "healthy" Generals in uniform, must be a sign a prosperity, I didn’t ever see FM Sam Bhadur as healthy as our current crop of Generals , but that is the concern of MOD.


Now, if you walk with your head in pink clouds, you will naturally not see lean Generals. You may have missed the cynosure of your eyes _ Let Gen Kishen Pal or Lt Gen Mohinder Puri. None were fat. None had a belly. In fact, General Kishen Pal was positively slim during the Kargil days.

4)Not involving IAF a little earlier was a bitter pill to swallow and defacto admission of tactical failure.
No amount good penmanship in your post can camouflage the facts


Stand for election and become our Defence Minister.

Maybe you will be a better General or an Air Marshall than what we had/ have.

It could be the second coming of Christ for India, who knows!

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Postby RayC » 31 Jul 2006 11:50

adrian wrote:I dont wish to join issue with Mr. Snow or Brig Ray ....all said and done Kargil was indeed a surprise for everyone all around .....a multitude of factors being responsible for it. We did come out victorious at the end ...that has never been in doubt but at what cost ? If one has talked to some of the junior (Maj's) and mid level (Cols) officers involved ...the perspective on the issue is somewhat different than from what one would hear from maybe the top brass.....for starters no one really heard about any two star or three star officer facing any enquiries however there were several reports of one star and below (junior) officers facing COI's and subsequent action......one is free to interpret that in anyway one wishes to...its a free world and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

What was and continues to be really important is to understand the lapses shortcomings and to learn from it so that something similar can/may be avoided in the near future if at all. Hopefully this has been done or is in the process. The Army fortunately or unfortunately has to follow the political diktat ....theirs is not to question why, their's is but to do and die!

However if there was something that I earnestly wish for is that individuals who eventually make it to the top rank remember the oath they took decades ago that the safety and welfare of the men they command comes before their own. I for one, am not too sure that is really the case these days ......71 did not happen too long ago ...and it doesnt seem like they make officers in the Manekshaw mold anymore ...one who would stand up for his men and for what he thought was right! There will be those who will argue that that was the army then ..this is now ...times have changed ........I agree the army like everything else has evolved but its culture,ethos,espirit de corps remain the same. So the question then becomes has it changed for the better ...I sure would hope so..... but then again your guess is as good as mine!


Adrian,

One can understand what you would like the Army to be.

However, the social and environmental factors that envelops the workplace in the army cannot be lost sight of.

Economic well being while in service and when retired, respect and honour by their countrymen empowers integrity and moral courage.

When such a situation does not come to pass, to be a General to get some recognition becomes a desire. Some go to any extent to achieve the same and quite a few don't.

That sort of sums up the issue.

If one lives with a pittance, if one has to stand for hours to get personal things done when on leave (when actually the man should spend time with his family and unwind), when one cannot get a train reservation to reach in time after leave, etc etc, there is hardly any incentive to be a Sam Bahadur! And surprisingly, even in such circumstances, there are still men in uniform who can better Sam Bahadur! But it does not mean that there are no bad fish. There are. And they stink worse than rotten fish and that smell permeates and sullies even those who better Sam Bahadur.

Just to be more specific, my daughter's salary when she started working (in an MNC) was way above my pay when I retired. Her petrol bill is more than my pension. I don't work any more because as per the employment agency, I am "over qualified"! Can I maintain my lifestyle? You guess! ;)

Things are betting bad as you state, but the bottom is still far away. Let's thank God for these small mercies!

However, there can be no better a satisfying life than the army life. You work hard, you play golf (as a General and troop games so long as you can and I played football till I retired and that too without a pot belly which I still don't have) and generally "enjoy" life.

I still remember one of my COs telling me that patrolling the Pir Panjal for 10 days is a real tough job. But look at this way - people pay huge sums to just go trekking the mountains and here, you trek the mountains and the govt pays you for doing so! I loved the sojourns in the Pir Panjal and I did many.

Then, just throw in some real shooting and war in between instead of a cyber game that to many is so ever thrilling and Adrenalin pumping. Man, what more do you want in life?

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The other side

Postby negi » 31 Jul 2006 12:32


One can understand what you would like the Army to be.

However, the social and environmental factors that envelops the workplace in the army cannot be lost sight of.

Economic well being while in service and when retired, respect and honour by their countrymen empowers integrity and moral courage.

When such a situation does not come to pass, to be a General to get some recognition becomes a desire. Some go to any extent to achieve the same and quite a few don't.

That sort of sums up the issue.

If one lives with a pittance, if one has to stand for hours to get personal things done when on leave (when actually the man should spend time with his family and unwind), when one cannot get a train reservation to reach in time after leave, etc etc, there is hardly any incentive to be a Sam Bahadur! And surprisingly, even in such circumstances, there are still men in uniform who can better Sam Bahadur! But it does not mean that there are no bad fish. There are. And they stink worse than rotten fish and that smell permeates and sullies even those who better Sam Bahadur.

Just to be more specific, my daughter's salary when she started working (in an MNC) was way above my pay when I retired. Her petrol bill is more than my pension. I don't work any more because as per the employment agency, I am "over qualified"! Can I maintain my lifestyle? You guess! ;)

Things are betting bad as you state, but the bottom is still far away. Let's thank God for these small mercies!

However, there can be no better a satisfying life than the army life. You work hard, you play golf (as a General and troop games so long as you can and I played football till I retired and that too without a pot belly which I still don't have) and generally "enjoy" life.

I still remember one of my COs telling me that patrolling the Pir Panjal for 10 days is a real tough job. But look at this way - people pay huge sums to just go trekking the mountains and here, you trek the mountains and the govt pays you for doing so! I loved the sojourns in the Pir Panjal and I did many.

Then, just throw in some real shooting and war in between instead of a cyber game that to many is so ever thrilling and Adrenalin pumping. Man, what more do you want in life?


Mr. Ray should say you have very correctly described the Army life,having said that I think one does not or rather shouldnt consider renumeration or perks as a criteria before joining IA or services.Moreover I should admit the package a commisioned officer draws along with the perks is in no way inferior to a person working in a top MNC unless he/she is working abroad(I believe most of my friends in this forum would agree to this).Anyways coming back to topic I would like to know (I might sound kiddish) but would like to know the feasibilty of patroling the Kargil and other inaccesible sectors by a combination of manned helicopter sorties ,UAV's, high resolution satellite images(wonder if we have the tech) however ,I assume army already has some sort of procedures in place for the same). :D

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Postby RayC » 31 Jul 2006 12:49

There is no doubt that love for the Nation cannot be equated in financial terms.

But to live like on fresh air is indeed difficult. I agree that many still can do so because the love of their nation is very overpowering.

However, the days of the Maharajas joining the Army is over it appears.

I would surely like to know how MNCs pay less than the pay of a newly commissioned officer, perks included.

I have been a Battalion Commander in the NDA. The drop out in the Summer entry was very high compared to the Winter entry. The reason was that the cadets joining had applied for other avenues and were waiting the results.Once the results were out, they opted out of the NDA.

I wonder if the pay and perks were involved in such a decision. The Study done on the same did indicate in that direction.

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Postby Uday » 31 Jul 2006 12:59

hi ray sir,
is it that bad in the army as you are potraying? Very alarming. Hope with 6th pay commissions things should get better.

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Postby adrian » 31 Jul 2006 13:07

Ray sir,
I couldnt agree more with what you just wrote. Being a serving officer's son I have been witness to and fully understand the nuances/complexities surrounding the services especially the army,that's why I still have some hope.

I have noticed a trend that an increasingly large number of serving/retd officer's children are not keen on joining or do not join the services ....maybe its because they see what their father's go through or in some cases (I have known) the parents dissuade the kids themselves,anyway each to his own.

Speaking for myself I wouldnt trade my service's upbringing for anything ....my only regret being medically unfit to fly jets, otherwise I was all set to go to Airforce Academy some years ago.


To say that the discrepancies in compensation, work environment, societal respect and career prospects between the services and the MNC's is significant is actually an understatement but then again the services are not for anyone and everyone!


I once read that people remember God and the soldier only at the time of war. I wish that would change, but public memory and perception is always short ...especially in India since we are "like that only"!

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Postby RayC » 31 Jul 2006 13:12

Uday wrote:hi ray sir,
is it that bad in the army as you are potraying? Very alarming. Hope with 6th pay commissions things should get better.


It would not be correct of me to comment on this.

Have you ever wondered why folks prefer other avenues?

Still, I won't state that the situation is bad. It should get better. The faster the better.

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I would be cautitous

Postby negi » 31 Jul 2006 13:15

RayC wrote:There is no doubt that love for the Nation cannot be equated in financial terms.

But to live like on fresh air is indeed difficult. I agree that many still can do so because the love of their nation is very overpowering.

However, the days of the Maharajas joining the Army is over it appears.

I would surely like to know how MNCs pay less than the pay of a newly commissioned officer, perks included.

I have been a Battalion Commander in the NDA. The drop out in the Summer entry was very high compared to the Winter entry. The reason was that the cadets joining had applied for other avenues and were waiting the results.Once the results were out, they opted out of the NDA.

I wonder if the pay and perks were involved in such a decision. The Study done on the same did indicate in that direction.


Sir, I would beg to differ on your opinion when I say the Package drawn by a commisioned personnel is comparable to the one employed in an MNC I actually took into account eefective expenditure the two have to bear(while the ones in defense have CSD facilities ,residential faciliteis ,subsidised water and electricity ,K.V's to send their children(fee is a big factor) ,rations etc) I mean one rarely needs to go outside the residential colony to buy stuff(eg naval bases in colaba,goa ,vizak) add to this warrant and free travel + transfer overheads that are beared by the GOI.I would never say that our Armed forces dont need em but their package is no way inferior to MNC's(barring what IIM grads and GOOGLE and MS offer). :D

As far as drop outs in NDA are concerened yes it might be because the career options(with good package) in India and globe have increased fields like mass communication ,advertising,IT have actually opened a plethora of oppertunities for fresh Grads. :lol:

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Re: I would be cautitous

Postby RayC » 31 Jul 2006 13:56

Sir, I would beg to differ on your opinion when I say the Package drawn by a commisioned personnel is comparable to the one employed in an MNC I actually took into account eefective expenditure the two have to bear(while the ones in defense have CSD facilities ,residential faciliteis ,subsidised water and electricity ,K.V's to send their children(fee is a big factor) ,rations etc) I mean one rarely needs to go outside the residential colony to buy stuff(eg naval bases in colaba,goa ,vizak) add to this warrant and free travel + transfer overheads that are beared by the GOI.I would never say that our Armed forces dont need em but their package is no way inferior to MNC's(barring what IIM grads and GOOGLE and MS offer). :D


As yes, the CSD. Thank heavens you did not say cheaper alcohol - the usual despondency of my civilian friends! ;) We pay all taxes but where we have lower rates is that between the CSD Depot and the Unit Canteen there are no dealers who take their margin. This margin is thus not there and hence our goods are cheaper. But do we have variety or choice? No. Hardly a feel good factor. So, if you want to buy something of your choice, it is back to the civilian Malls or shops.

One does not have to leave the residential area you state. Neither do frogs in the well. And then you all will complain that the army children are so aloof and hoity toity! Further, is being frogs in the well a great way of learning about life in general?

KV? I know this will get many people's back up, but why KV? Can our children not have a better all round education? I have been Chairman for three KVs including one where there was no Physics or Maths teacher and the KV HQ in Delhi pleaded helplessness, it being a non popular station! Good education? It was only because my brother was the Union Govt Eduation Secretary that I managed to get one of the teachers. Is that they way how education is to be managed? My children changed 11 schools in 12 years of their education life! Fortunately, they were not affected, but would it not affect the standard of education if they change schools so frequently?

Compare a KV with the Army Public School, Delhi or Lawrence Schools or La Martiniere. The latter give an all round education. Most KVs don't. But I will admit the KVs I was a Chairman of did indicate that their was 1005 PLUS on nationalism and pride in being an Indian. I, myself, felt real good watching their programmes. It used to stir my nationalism a lot.

Transfer and warrants. For every alternate year we have to go by Form D i.e. pay 60%. We get four such forms and that is used to go on leave or if the family wishes to visit you in field stations where the families are allowed. If in peace stations, it allows you to go home and meet your parents. Don't the civilians i.e. govt employees get LTC?

There is no subsidised water or electricity. We pay for our houses as per Govt rules and what is applicable to civilian govt servants. I got a house which was 5000 sq ft once in Pune (which I did not want but if I didn't take it I would be relegated and wait another year) and the rent was astronomical!

For transfers, which is every two years, what do you expect us to do? Pay for the same in full? As it is we don't get the money we spend to move our stuff by road. The CDA invariably chops the claim.

Please show the comparison of pays of MNC and the Army instead of giving general statements. Maybe I would learn.

As far as drop outs in NDA are concerened yes it might be because the career options(with good package) in India and globe have increased fields like mass communication ,advertising,IT have actually opened a plethora of oppertunities for fresh Grads. :lol:


I was talking of those days when the job avenues were not as it is today.

If you were given the option, would you prefer an MNC job or the Army? And would your choice be an indicator that you love the country any less?

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Postby Lalmohan » 31 Jul 2006 14:21

Ved wrote:
RayC wrote:Napalm bombs when dropped along low level attack profile, slide along the ground and incinerate the area as it slides along and also spreads. (I have not seen a napalm strike to be honest, but I have seen such attacks in training films).

One wonders how effective it would be on mountain tops and along spines if it has to slide and incinerate.

High level drops would have no guarantee of hits.

Maybe an airforce chap can tell us.


Right. So one would need to think very carefully about where to use the weapon - the ridge at Tololing, may have been a good place!


the ridge is, if you read the above, really NOT a good place to dump napalm. it will most likely miss and plunge several 1000 feet off to one side and burn harmlessly or against friendlies

on any bit of flat land... not bad at all, however you will probably be more mission effective dropping a 1000lb'er LGB and stay out of manpad range

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mmmm a query

Postby negi » 31 Jul 2006 14:31

Lalmohan wrote:
Ved wrote:
RayC wrote:Napalm bombs when dropped along low level attack profile, slide along the ground and incinerate the area as it slides along and also spreads. (I have not seen a napalm strike to be honest, but I have seen such attacks in training films).

One wonders how effective it would be on mountain tops and along spines if it has to slide and incinerate.

High level drops would have no guarantee of hits.

Maybe an airforce chap can tell us.


Right. So one would need to think very carefully about where to use the weapon - the ridge at Tololing, may have been a good place!


the ridge is, if you read the above, really NOT a good place to dump napalm. it will most likely miss and plunge several 1000 feet off to one side and burn harmlessly or against friendlies

on any bit of flat land... not bad at all, however you will probably be more mission effective dropping a 1000lb'er LGB and stay out of manpad range


I wanted to know are their limitations on the sort of trajectory a bomb should be dropped with depending upon it's type(napalm,HE,fragmentation).For if NO why are we discussing about the nature of landscape in context of Napalm attack ,isnt the type of shelter or bunker enemy has burrowed into a criteria for choosing the type of a bomb?as far as a LGB is concerned I wanted to know what types of explosives it can deliver ,in other words can a LGB deliver a napalm explosive ?what is the CEP for a LGB :-?

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Postby shiv » 31 Jul 2006 15:53

Frankly - I am still interested in the science of Napalm burning at high altitude.

Napalm differs from other explosives in that it uses atmospheric oxygen. But if the amount of atmospheric oxygen available to burn is less, Napalm will neither burn as completely nor effectively as in the plains.

As far as I can tell - there are only 2 or 3 nations on earth who have the required mounatin ranges to test napalm at 18000+ feet - India and Chile among them. Not the US, Europe or Russia.

Has napalm ever been tested at 18000 feet?. From the stories I read after Kargil - pinpoint attacks on peaks of 18000 foot high mountains had not been attempted by any Air Force in the world and I am completely unable to find open source information about how napalm performs above 15000 feet.

I would like to get some information on this - if anyone has any.

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Postby rakall » 31 Jul 2006 18:27

Ved wrote:Wrong info. NO napalm was used.



Ved -- could you please answer/share your thoughts on some questions posted in the "F18 ride at Farnborough" thread..

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Postby Lalmohan » 31 Jul 2006 20:02

Shiv - your hypothesis on combustion is a strong one. and the same arguement will apply for FAE systems too. I would hazard a guess that it would be rather poor bang per buck even if you got it on target

psnegi -

problem 1: at 18,000ft there are completely different air densities, temperatures and winds which will impact the flight characteristics of weapons - most weapons will not have been designed to "fly" at these altitudes and therefore their ranging and aiming algorithms and software will be completely off the mark, not to mention strong gusting mountain winds which will knock things off course

problem 2: a bunker on a ridge is a very small target. most weapons have a circular error probability of hitting, measured in meters; even for LGB's it tends to be >2m (from memory), for dumb bombs it can be in excess of 20m

on normal flat land targets, a 1000lb'er missing by 20m is not really a miss at all - it will still flatten the target. On a steep sided mountain ridge, that 2m-20m can make the difference between hitting the bunker or plunging down the slope and missing by 1000's of feet

if you couple problem 1 and 2 together, you know fundamentally why tactical air support is very difficult in a kargil type environment, even with LGB's, leave alone an "unaimed", tumbling flight, dispersal type area weapon like napalm - which lets remind ourselves requires an overfly of the target and all the AAA and MANPAD problems that it raises

similar problems with artillery and also infantry guided weapons - although optically tracked missiles might still be in with a chance, assuming the aerodynamics can be adjusted for

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Postby negi » 31 Jul 2006 20:20


psnegi -

problem 1: at 18,000ft there are completely different air densities, temperatures and winds which will impact the flight characteristics of weapons - most weapons will not have been designed to "fly" at these altitudes and therefore their ranging and aiming algorithms and software will be completely off the mark, not to mention strong gusting mountain winds which will knock things off course

problem 2: a bunker on a ridge is a very small target. most weapons have a circular error probability of hitting, measured in meters; even for LGB's it tends to be >2m (from memory), for dumb bombs it can be in excess of 20m

on normal flat land targets, a 1000lb'er missing by 20m is not really a miss at all - it will still flatten the target. On a steep sided mountain ridge, that 2m-20m can make the difference between hitting the bunker or plunging down the slope and missing by 1000's of feet

if you couple problem 1 and 2 together, you know fundamentally why tactical air support is very difficult in a kargil type environment, even with LGB's, leave alone an "unaimed", tumbling flight, dispersal type area weapon like napalm - which lets remind ourselves requires an overfly of the target and all the AAA and MANPAD problems that it raises

similar problems with artillery and also infantry guided weapons - although optically tracked missiles might still be in with a chance, assuming the aerodynamics can be adjusted for


Ah this is what I had been looking for these many days a good technical answer.I would like to know what is the biggest and most powerful bomb in IAF's arsenal(of course declassified one),would a bomb like Daisy Cutter would have helped in our cause of Kargil? And post Kargil scenario what has IAF done to address the problem of a Bombing run at 18k feet +? (again a I sought a declassified info of-course).

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Postby Lalmohan » 31 Jul 2006 20:30

a bomb like a daisy cutter would have almost certainly missed any ridge or slope targets and have almost certainly caused a landslide with all sorts of unintended consequences

besides a 5000lb+ bomb to hit 3 men in a hole doesn't sound practical

i am afraid that there are only a few options

1. Fuel air explosives
2. infantry launched missiles (guided or unguided)
3. anti-material rifles

don't forget you have to carry this up the mountain on some poor buggers back, so i am going for option 3 as the most cost/effective

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Postby negi » 31 Jul 2006 20:38

Lalmohan wrote:
don't forget you have to carry this up the mountain on some poor buggers back, so i am going for option 3 as the most cost/effective


I was talking about air bombardment ,talking of anti material rifles how would one acquire target from below the mountain range ?yup Daisy cutter would have caused a landslide but killed em too (I didnt get you DC missing a slope or ridge cant it be made to explode few meters above the target like proximity fuse and stuff ) and being a heavy bomb would have had more chances of hitting the target assuming it is a TV or Laser guided bomb.

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Postby Jager » 31 Jul 2006 22:17

Negi ,

LGBs are laser guided bombs . They are bombs that are guided on to the targets that are lit up by a laser either from the ground or from the air .
AFAIK India does not have these bombs (Airforce Experts help?)

I would say smash those mothers with artillery and mortars . Nice localised and a comparitively cheap option .

Fun Fact : Each shell fired by a bofors gun (at time of the kargil conflict ) cost Rs 10,000 .

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Re: I would be cautitous

Postby Jager » 31 Jul 2006 22:21

RayC wrote:t;]
And would your choice be an indicator that you love the country any less?


IF i chose an MNC over army for money
Would it make me less of a patriot ? May be not

But less of a person ? Yes
Last edited by Jager on 02 Aug 2006 00:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Lalmohan » 31 Jul 2006 22:44

Jager wrote:Negi ,

LGBs are laser guided bombs . They are bombs that are guided on to the targets that are lit up by a laser either from the ground or from the air .
AFAIK India does not have these bombs (Airforce Experts help?)




er... IAF dropped LGB's on Tiger Hill amongst other places, you can see the video on youtube.

laser designators need something to light up, a foxhole on a mountain doesn't strike me as being all that easy to light up - all of the ballistics problems we discussed on this thread remain

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Postby Raman » 01 Aug 2006 00:38

Napalm differs from other explosives in that it uses atmospheric oxygen. But if the amount of atmospheric oxygen available to burn is less, Napalm will neither burn as completely nor effectively as in the plains.


shiv,

I am not an expert in this either, but let me offer a thought. Napalm works by burning up available oxygen and thus kills people through oxygen deprivation (in addition to incineration). At high altitude, the oxygen level is already low. It might be possible that although there is insufficient oxygen for napalm to burn as well as it might at sea level, the napalm that does burn uses up the oxygen that is available. The end effect to the victim is the same --- no oxygen. The only thing remaining is whether there is "excess" uncombusted napalm or not.

I can think of two counters to the above argument. It may be that it is necessary to sustain the combustion of napalm for some duration to ensure oxygen deprivation, rather than ephemeral oxygen starvation. Second, it is also likely that the incinerative effects of napalm play a large part in overall weapon effectiveness. It is definitely possible that both these effects are seriously compromised at altitude.

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Postby svinayak » 01 Aug 2006 01:33

I heard that there was some questions on the links I had posted.
The information in that link with the recent disclosure of Mushy about the photos and briefing done to Mushy and information from the Indian media gives us clues to the period Apr 27 1999 to May 8 1999.

This period is the black hole in the story of Kargil
This can be discussed when time is appropriate and BR is ready.

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Postby John Snow » 01 Aug 2006 04:33

Image

rajrang
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Interesting Article

Postby rajrang » 01 Aug 2006 07:47

Here is an interesting research on the Kargil War from the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California:

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/th ... osta03.pdf

cheers

raj

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Re: Interesting Article

Postby Shyam_K » 01 Aug 2006 10:06

rajrang wrote:Here is an interesting research on the Kargil War from the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California:

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/th ... osta03.pdf

cheers

raj


You are right, this makes for real interesting reading. Though I believe this has been posted before.
Last edited by Shyam_K on 01 Aug 2006 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Lalmohan » 01 Aug 2006 13:13

nice to see the newbies re treading on old ground :D


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