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Kargil War Thread - V

RayC
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Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2006 09:09

and for the ones who think valor in the age of smart bombs, cluster bombs, Fuel air explosives is a little anachronism...

Valor to the people who understand valor, not to people who dont understand valor..
.

Interesting, to say the least.

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Postby Arun_S » 02 Oct 2006 09:58

Ved wrote:
John Snow wrote:It is great to hear that IA is gentlemen first.... officer next...

But what of Shaurab Kalia, and SqLdr Ahuja... who suffered so much in their hands?


The hallmark of fine sense is the adherence to one's own values. Do we need to match the bad examples, or wouldnt we rather set a few good ones of our own? This is not 'armchair general' talk, but feelings from the front line.

Not preaching to the Pope. But just to clarify a ruthless and professional army is what India wants and deserves. I hope the values are aligned with the army's sole purpose of winning at lowest loss to self and braking enemies will to fight for rest of their life. And it is not based on egalitarian philosophy.

Fighting scums like TSP-Army who will not even fight for the honour of their profession or uniform or their uniformed soldiers is despicable, and being graceful to them is like feeding pearls to swine. A former ACM expressed similar sentiments in private meetings.

Putting fear into enemies heart that will be recounted to their children as long as they live is very desirable in this dark-age. Psychological damage is as critical as physical/bodily damage.

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Postby Ashok » 02 Oct 2006 17:19

Lt. Kalia was tortured & done to death. Sqd. Ldr. Ahuja was apparently shot in point blank range after resisting capture. To remind folks who might not remember :

From Rediff:
Lt Kalia's brother, Vaibhav, now 25, identified his body when it arrived in a coffin wrapped in the national flag in Palampur. Saurabh's face, he recalls, "was the size of my fingers, his eyebrows were the only visible feature, no eyes, no jaw, there were cigarette burns… it was very bad. My parents couldn't have seen him."

And from this report:
The pilot of the MiG 21 Ahuja was captured alive after his aircraft was shot down by Pakistani troops with surface-to-air missile on Thursday and was later shot dead in cold blood, the post-mortem report indicates, IAF officials said.
The post-mortem of Sqd Ldr Ahuja, conducted at Srinagar Base Hospital, stated that the probable cause of death "was due to the gunshot damaging the blood vessels, internal organs leading to haemorrhage and shock."
As per the detailed post-mortem report available with The Tribune stated that "a penetrating gunshot wound, entry near right ear, exit near the external orifice of left ear with bleeding and clot."
"Gunshot wound (second) entry, 2 cm medial to right nipple, exit near left iliac crest damaging viscera like liver, interstine and peritonium," the report said, adding that Ahuja had suffered a "compound" fracture of the left knee.
The report stated that Ahuja suffered multiple punctured wounds over left and right thighs, rupture of right lung, injury to neck vessels, small intestine and left liver.
The Tribune had reported that the pilot of the MiG 21 had been shot in the head from point-blank range and that he had apparently put up strong resistance before being killed in cold blood, which has been confirmed by the post-mortem report.


And the TSP army & its allies have ALWAYS been barbarians. People might have forgotten how during the 1948 Kashmir war, the body of the Victoria Cross winner Jemadar Nand Singh was taken around Muzaffarabad, spread-eagled in a truck, and then dumped in a garbage heap.
The present TSP army has only degenerated even further, if that were possible at all. Chivalrous behaviour & to this pack of murderers?

CPrakash wrote:I dont know about Kalia, but it appears that Ahuja was killed in a regular shootout - no use blaming the packees on that.

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Postby Anoop » 02 Oct 2006 17:36

How can one be barbaric towards barbarians and then turn around and be civilized towards civilized people? Let's look at it from a practical standpoint. You are the CO of a unit that has captured Pak PoWs. You allow or actively instigate your men to torture. The soldiers have learnt what is expected of them and they obey orders. Next your unit goes on a COIN assignment and picks up who they think are terrorists. They follow the same modus operandi to extract information. How do you stop them? If you don't, what has happened to the discipline in your unit and to your ability to win the peace? What prevents them from turning on anyone they don't like - like a particularly strict officer, for instance? What keeps the moral fabric intact? Without that moral fabric, why would a unit follow orders to the death? Without that sense of superiority and sense of upholding regimental values, why wouldn't the IA become a band of rag-tag militia, doing drugs and raping women?

I think we should listen to the officers on this board who speak from experience of leading men through fire - they know what keeps the unit functioning.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 17:51

Ashok,

As I said, I cannot comment on kalia, but I would like to know more and learn more about Ahuja. I do know about the various reports of that time but I always believe that reports close to the event are not quite reliable. There is always an element of propaganda sewn into reports and comments - and which is necessary at that time. But now that six years have passed we should look at objectively.

For starters, its a good thing we have the post mortem report details. Now I would like to know from this board if we have any any experienced person from the medical fraternity who can look into the post mortem details posted by you. can the details of the postmortem confirm that this shooting was done at pointblank range and after torture? It should be easy to establish that as there would be some powder residue on the body. Did the post mortem report mention that? I am sure the complete report will shed more light on this. Can anyone also confirm whether the compound fracture on the leg is due to deliberate torture and NOT an ejection injury?


Remember there are acts done by both sides however unintentional they maybe can be interpreted as an act of barbarism. May I point out the 'rotting head on a stick' story? what would you thnk of it?

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Postby Ashok » 02 Oct 2006 18:29

CPrakash,
I know you said you could not comment on Lt. Kalia, but why not?
Why stick only to the case of Sqd. Ldr. Ahuja? Such behaviour is the rule, not the exception, for TSP's jihadi/army hordes. The rotting head story that you mention came into circulation after these incidents. Not before. And you don't have folks from India (jihadi, army or otherwise), running across the LoC slitting throats & visiting mayhem on people do you?
Frankly, this equal-equal business is galling. If you want to be objective, you should go the whole hog & look at ALL the murders that are comitted daily by Pak forces (army/pseudo-army/Army of Islam/Jihadi-- the whole bunch) against Indian citizens in their perennial undeclared war against the Indian republic. And then total up any perceived Indian atrocities on the TSP people. The Indian Army is much too civilized an outfit to match the TSP army's barbarity: they have no visions of winning a ticket to paradise by becoming a Ghazi & inflicting torture & death to the unbeliever, unlike their counterparts in the cesspool across the border. My point is that perhaps no quarter need be given in any conflict with this bunch, and none expected (since none seems to be given anyway)..
Regarding postmortem reports -- they were posted on BR if I recall correctly, during the Kargil war, and discussed at length as well.

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Postby Lalmohan » 02 Oct 2006 18:35

the remarkably few POW's from Kargil tell you the story of quarter asked and given

a few accounts i have read in books etc., (not news reports) mention this as a recurring theme

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 18:59

Ashok wrote:CPrakash,
I know you said you could not comment on Lt. Kalia, but why not?
Why stick only to the case of Sqd. Ldr. Ahuja? Such behaviour is the rule, not the exception, for TSP's jihadi/army hordes. The rotting head story that you mention came into circulation after these incidents.
Regarding postmortem reports -- they were posted on BR if I recall correctly, during the Kargil war, and discussed at length as well.


if I may correct you, the rotting head story was very much reported before the story of Kalia broke out. it was written about in India Today - and the tone of the article was actually positive and encouraging.

I was there on BR since Kargil days and I dont recollect any extensive discussions on the postmortem details other than the bare details i have posted earlier. I am sure if the entire report was posted, I would remember it - i cant find it in the archives either.

I am not out to prove that the Packees are a bunch of angels or not. The reason I want to focus on ahuja is because i am interested in finding out more about him. And also because I believe there are visitors on this board who can shed more light on this incident than some of the army cases.

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Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2006 21:18

If the psyche that is advocated by some on this forum is to be barbaric, it is an interesting viewpoint and of that there is no doubt.

It will lead to mental makeup that would contribute to many My Lai sort of incidents, not only in war, but also in CI.

We would have a very interesting situation then.

I would surely appreciate comments from those who wish the IA to be barbaric.

I hope these same gentlemen will santise the IA from the Human Rights organisation, the Judiciary of India and will themselves then not cry blue murder that the IA has committed atrocities!

It may actually be fun to gouge eyes, tear a limb and see human writhe in pain, smash the gonads, cut other sensitive parts without anaesthesia etc. Obviously, such troops will be beyond control and so what about a little bit of plunder and loot thrown in as savings for a rainy day?

A capital idea indeed!

And then when called for IS duties, the same could also be done for after all, bad habits die hard! ;)

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 21:26

RayC wrote:

I would surely appreciate comments from those who wish the IA to be barbaric.
!


Trying to stir the pot, I see? :P

Wouldnt it be interesting to see if the same members who advocate tit-for-tat are given access to a pak prisoner and asked to do the same - how many of them will have the guts to do so?

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Postby cbelwal » 02 Oct 2006 21:32

I think Pakis could have been made to pay the pricefor what they did to Lt. Kalia and his brave men without the Indian army having to resort to equivalent barbarism. And this is where MEA's role comes into the picture. If details of the torture and a few pictures ( with family's permission of course ) would have been shown to media at a much hyped press conference it would have done justice to Lt. Kalia. What really happened ? The MEA kept quiet so as not to assuage the feelings of the Pakis. Is 'teaching Pakis a lesson' the job of Indian Army onlee ?

The ineptitude of the Indian security apparatus to use media to its advantage has resulted in Human Rights violations, justice et al being used as a one edged sword by the Pakis. Their propaganda and marketing machinery works overtime leading to demoralization and calls for change in the Indian Army ethos. These are symptons of them winning this psychological war.


RayC wrote:If the psyche that is advocated by some on this forum is to be barbaric, it is an interesting viewpoint and of that there is no doubt.

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Postby rocky » 02 Oct 2006 21:35

Anoop wrote:How can one be barbaric towards barbarians and then turn around and be civilized towards civilized people? Let's look at it from a practical standpoint. You are the CO of a unit that has captured Pak PoWs. You allow or actively instigate your men to torture. The soldiers have learnt what is expected of them and they obey orders. Next your unit goes on a COIN assignment and picks up who they think are terrorists. They follow the same modus operandi to extract information. How do you stop them? If you don't, what has happened to the discipline in your unit and to your ability to win the peace? What prevents them from turning on anyone they don't like - like a particularly strict officer, for instance? What keeps the moral fabric intact? Without that moral fabric, why would a unit follow orders to the death? Without that sense of superiority and sense of upholding regimental values, why wouldn't the IA become a band of rag-tag militia, doing drugs and raping women?

I think we should listen to the officers on this board who speak from experience of leading men through fire - they know what keeps the unit functioning.
Actually the argument is not about torturing and killing Pakistani POWs, but about giving them gallantry citations and commendations.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 21:39

rocky wrote:
Anoop wrote:How can one be barbaric towards barbarians and then turn around and be civilized towards civilized people? Let's look at it from a practical standpoint. You are the CO of a unit that has captured Pak PoWs. You allow or actively instigate your men to torture. The soldiers have learnt what is expected of them and they obey orders. Next your unit goes on a COIN assignment and picks up who they think are terrorists. They follow the same modus operandi to extract information. How do you stop them? If you don't, what has happened to the discipline in your unit and to your ability to win the peace? What prevents them from turning on anyone they don't like - like a particularly strict officer, for instance? What keeps the moral fabric intact? Without that moral fabric, why would a unit follow orders to the death? Without that sense of superiority and sense of upholding regimental values, why wouldn't the IA become a band of rag-tag militia, doing drugs and raping women?

I think we should listen to the officers on this board who speak from experience of leading men through fire - they know what keeps the unit functioning.
Actually the argument is not about torturing and killing Pakistani POWs, but about giving them gallantry citations and commendations.


you are right - we got distracted.

But giving them gallantry commendation is a psyops job - the enemy soldier will have to think at some point of time - "what kind of an enemy is this who praises one of my own ?" - Its also a way of poking the enemy's eye - "You are not doing a good job in recognising your men - so let us do it for you".

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Postby cbelwal » 02 Oct 2006 21:42

Sometimes revenge does serve as an insurance policy against repetition of unsavoury incidents. And based on implementation sometimes it can worsen the situation.

Every state should have a policy of revenge though it implementation should be on a quid pro basis. In this case India should have avenged the death through other means which would have hit harder on the Pakis. They would have taken extra care not to do something like this again in the future. The fact that India did not even raise a stink is a free pass for Pakistan to do further Saurabh Kalia's in the future.


CPrakash wrote:Wouldnt it be interesting to see if the same members who advocate tit-for-tat are given access to a pak prisoner and asked to do the same - how many of them will have the guts to do so?

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 21:44

cbelwal wrote:Sometimes revenge does serve as an insurance policy against repetition of unsavoury incidents. And based on implementation sometimes it can worsen the situation.

Every state should have a policy of revenge though it implementation should be on a quid pro basis. In this case India should have avenged the death through other means which would have hit harder on the Pakis. They would have taken extra care not to do something like this again in the future. The fact that India did not even raise a stink is a free pass for Pakistan to do further Saurabh Kalia's in the future.

]


Is there a link out there where i can read saurabh kalias post mortem report?

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Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2006 22:26

The ineptitude of the Indian security apparatus to use media to its advantage has resulted in Human Rights violations, justice et al being used as a one edged sword by the Pakis. Their propaganda and marketing machinery works overtime leading to demoralization and calls for change in the Indian Army ethos. These are symptons of them winning this psychological war.


This is a truism that cannot be refuted.

The case of Kalia requires to be highlighted internationally to indicate how disgustingly animal like the Pakistani Army is.

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Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2006 22:31

[
quote="cbelwal"]Sometimes revenge does serve as an insurance policy against repetition of unsavoury incidents. And based on implementation sometimes it can worsen the situation.

Every state should have a policy of revenge though it implementation should be on a quid pro basis. In this case India should have avenged the death through other means which would have hit harder on the Pakis. They would have taken extra care not to do something like this again in the future. The fact that India did not even raise a stink is a free pass for Pakistan to do further Saurabh Kalia's in the future.


If the enemy knows that the other side is not brutal and inhuman, then there is a good chance that when the odds totally indicate that the case is lost, he will readily surrender.

However. if the enemy knows that he will be brutally tortured if he becomes a prisoner, he will fight to the last and fight like a tiger because he will still nurture the hope that maybe that there is still a chance of keeping his enemy at bay.

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Postby cbelwal » 02 Oct 2006 22:33

Detailed Post Mortems are not public info. Here are a few with some info. He was posthumously awarded a Captain's rank. May his soul RIP.

http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/kalia.html

http://www.petitiononline.com/LtKalia/petition.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurabh_Kalia

...
The postmortem revealed that the Pakistan army had indulged in the most heinous acts; of burning their bodies with cigarettes, piercing ear-drums with hot rods, puncturing eyes before removing them, breaking most of the teeth and bones, chopping off various limbs and private organs of these soldiers besides inflicting all sorts of physical and mental tortures before shooting them dead.
...

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/03dilip.htm


CPrakash wrote:Is there a link out there where i can read saurabh kalias post mortem report?

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Postby ShibaPJ » 02 Oct 2006 22:48

Now it is Aziz on Mushy's 'True Lies'...

Musharraf's Kargil claim not entirely true: Aziz

Former Pakistan foreign minister Sartaj Aziz has rejected the claims made by President Pervez Musharraf that the Kargil conflict helped bring the Kashmir issue back in international focus.

Aziz has also rejected the claim that the political leadership had lost the gains claimed to have been made by Pakistan army in Kargil. According to him, Musharraf's account of Kargil, in his book In the Line of Fire was not entirely correct.

"I do not agree with General Musharraf's view in his book that it was Kargil which helped in bringing back the Kashmir issue to international focus. In fact, Kargil led to disruption of the Lahore process initiated by Nawaz Sharif and Atal Bihari Vajpayee. The military takeover completely destroyed the process", Aziz told the BBC Hindi service on Sunday.
..

Aziz also appealed to India to exercise restraint while talking about terror activities. "It does not help to blame any agency of a neighbouring country for any act of terror. If you say ISI (Pakistani spy agency) is behind the attacks, then we can also turn around and say RAW (Indian spy agency) is behind some violent activities in Pakistan. In my view, both countries should carry forward the peace process with sincerity".

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 23:08

RayC wrote: to indicate how disgustingly animal like the Pakistani Army is.


Ray, having fought the packees in two wars (or more?) do you really believe what you wrote or are you saying that to placate the people over here?

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Postby ramana » 02 Oct 2006 23:30

CP, TSP behavior post 1980 jihadization is different from earlier encounters. They got worse in the involvement in Afghanistan. In Kargil what was done to the POWs was despicable. Nothing to placate the members here.
Why are you throwing mud on members by implication? Whats up?

BTW, Gen. Hugh Shelton also expressed some reservations about the reports of torture of POWS by the TSP during Kargil. Look it up.

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Postby CPrakash » 02 Oct 2006 23:44

ramana wrote:CP, TSP behavior post 1980 jihadization is different from earlier encounters. They got worse in the involvement in Afghanistan. In Kargil what was done to the POWs was despicable. Nothing to placate the members here.
Why are you throwing mud on members by implication? Whats up?

BTW, Gen. Hugh Shelton also expressed some reservations about the reports of torture of POWS by the TSP during Kargil. Look it up.


Mud on who? RayC? No disrespect intended, but I do get a feeling that he really didnt mean what he say.

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Postby Prem » 02 Oct 2006 23:55

cbelwal wrote:Detailed Post Mortems are not public info. Here are a few with some info. He was posthumously awarded a Captain's rank. May his soul RIP.

http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/kalia.html

http://www.petitiononline.com/LtKalia/petition.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurabh_Kalia

...
The postmortem revealed that the Pakistan army had indulged in the most heinous acts; of burning their bodies with cigarettes, piercing ear-drums with hot rods, puncturing eyes before removing them, breaking most of the teeth and bones, chopping off various limbs and private organs of these soldiers besides inflicting all sorts of physical and mental tortures before shooting them dead.
...

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/03dilip.htm


CPrakash wrote:Is there a link out there where i can read saurabh kalias post mortem report?


My eldest sister is neighbour to proud Kalia family> i came to know few Paki kartoots early this year. Pakis, dead or alive deserve no pity and should get none.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 03 Oct 2006 00:20

Absolutely correct, Prem. Pukis deserve no mercy, no pity, no compassion. Do onto them what they do to others. Lakhon ke bhut baaton se nahin mante.

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Postby Surya » 03 Oct 2006 00:57

CP:

Ahuja's batchmates believe he was shot in cold blood -

And of course Nachi was also beaten up.

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Postby Surya » 03 Oct 2006 00:57

CP:

Ahuja's batchmates believe he was shot in cold blood -

And of course Nachi was also beaten up.

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Postby CPrakash » 03 Oct 2006 00:59

Surya wrote:CP:

Ahuja's batchmates believe he was shot in cold blood -

And of course Nachi was also beaten up.


surya, Was there a firefight as was the case with nachiketa?

it also beggars the question - why was nachi spared?

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Postby ramana » 03 Oct 2006 01:01

Right during Kargil I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my condolences. He thanked me and also mailed me a copy of the post morterm report. I will see if I can dig it up.

BTW, One of our members had organized a medical camp in Palampur in Lt. Kalia's memory.

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Postby Prem » 03 Oct 2006 01:04

CPrakash wrote:
Surya wrote:CP:

Ahuja's batchmates believe he was shot in cold blood -

And of course Nachi was also beaten up.


surya, Was there a firefight as was the case with nachiketa?

it also beggars the question - why was nachi spared?


This might have something do with being Punjabi Hindu. AFAIK Kalia and Ahuja are Punjabi.

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Postby Anoop » 03 Oct 2006 01:07

I have heard that soldiers have nightmares of their time in combat - and that the faces of their enemy dead continue to haunt them long after the war is over. And this is when the choice is between killing or being killed.

Now imagine the nightmares that will visit upon a willful torturer. Imagine what state of mind will give no nightmares. Now imagine a whole army of such minds. One should be careful what one wishes for.

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Postby Prem » 03 Oct 2006 01:24

Anoop wrote:I have heard that soldiers have nightmares of their time in combat - and that the faces of their enemy dead continue to haunt them long after the war is over. And this is when the choice is between killing or being killed.

Now imagine the nightmares that will visit upon a willful torturer. Imagine what state of mind will give no nightmares. Now imagine a whole army of such minds. One should be careful what one wishes for.


Not , if one is trained from childhood to torture ,slaughter animals and slit Kafir throats.. the last being God sent blessing. We are talking about IROTIANS here not normal human beings.

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Postby abhischekcc » 03 Oct 2006 01:31

Is there any way in which we members of BR can file a case against Mushak and other Pak Army officers involved in these murders, in the Intl Court of Justice, for war crimes?

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Postby John Snow » 03 Oct 2006 01:38

ramana wrote:Right during Kargil I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my condolences. He thanked me and also mailed me a copy of the post morterm report. I will see if I can dig it up.

BTW, One of our members had organized a medical camp in Palampur in Lt. Kalia's memory.


That was a doctor from Florida, who was avery active member of BRF in those days

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Postby CPrakash » 03 Oct 2006 01:43

abhischekcc wrote:Is there any way in which we members of BR can file a case against Mushak and other Pak Army officers involved in these murders, in the Intl Court of Justice, for war crimes?


You want to try something in ICJ, you need the assent of both govts - no prizes for guessin that the paks wont give their assent.

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Postby Anoop » 03 Oct 2006 01:44

Prem wrote: Not , if one is trained from childhood to torture ,slaughter animals and slit Kafir throats.. the last being God sent blessing. We are talking about IROTIANS here not normal human beings.


I am talking about the dangers of becoming like them, something more than one member on BRF has been advocating.

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Postby abhischekcc » 03 Oct 2006 01:48

CPrakash wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:Is there any way in which we members of BR can file a case against Mushak and other Pak Army officers involved in these murders, in the Intl Court of Justice, for war crimes?


You want to try something in ICJ, you need the assent of both govts - no prizes for guessin that the paks wont give their assent.


Err, then how was the Pinochet prosecuted? He was sued in Holland, IIRC. Will that work in this case?

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Postby John Snow » 03 Oct 2006 01:51

Anoop idea is to do 'Do Ankhen Barah haath' for the do Ankhen Saurab lost.

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Postby CPrakash » 03 Oct 2006 01:58

John Snow wrote:Anoop idea is to do 'Do Ankhen Barah haath' for the do Ankhen Saurab lost.


So whats your suggestion all over again?

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Postby ShibaPJ » 03 Oct 2006 02:02

Anoop & CP,

The idea is not to become 'barbarians' aka Puki Army. India could have taken unofficial posture of 'Taking no prisoners' from Kargil battlefields or strafing the downhill skiing Pukis. Similar postures have been taken before in internal anti-terrorism campaigns.. Why can't they be extended to external battlefields?

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Postby CPrakash » 03 Oct 2006 02:32

ShibaPJ wrote:Anoop & CP,

The idea is not to become 'barbarians' aka Puki Army. India could have taken unofficial posture of 'Taking no prisoners' from Kargil battlefields or strafing the downhill skiing Pukis. Similar postures have been taken before in internal anti-terrorism campaigns.. Why can't they be extended to external battlefields?


First - its against the Geneva conventions.

Second, It will have the same effect as to what RayC has already elaborated. Any Pakistani soldier who had even the slightest inkling of surrendring would now fight to death - what will he lose?

Lastly we can forget about our own chaps returning alive - whether it is nachiketa or the jawans who were captured and released later on .


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