Kargil Revisited

Babui
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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Babui » 05 Dec 2003 23:43

The other bk I would recommend is Gaurav Sawant's "Dateline Kargil". It is a journalistic account and should not be read for historical accuracy. However, it is highly readable and gives great detail - at unit level - on how the IA lives and fights.
Harinder Baweja and Shrinjoy Choudhury's are the two other books in the same vein as Sawant's. I would rate Baweja's bk a couple of notches above Chowdhury's.
"Guns and Yellow Roses" is another bk with a compilation of essays from the Kargil War. Not a bad read.
And of course, as mentioned before - Amarinder's bk is the best of the lot.
A good coffee table bk is one published by the Armed Forces dealing with the artillery (can't remember name).
Don't bother with the other bks. They are 'bekaar'.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby venkat_r » 05 Dec 2003 23:49

Do not know what the admin policy on posting about this movie is or if there had been debates regarding..

Here is the link about the movie and some good accounts regarding the kargil

http://www.lockargil.com/
Just cannot wait for the release, Promises to be a good one.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby svinayak » 06 Dec 2003 00:36

super!

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Roop » 06 Dec 2003 01:14

Shinseki was right on the money when he said artillery could have helped in operation Anaconda. This thesis seems to bear that out.
Shinseki was also right on the money in his predictions about the number of troops that would be needed in Iraq. Rumsfeld was p!ssed off at Shinseki and ran him out of town, but subsequent events have made it clear that Shinseki was right.

BTW, David Hackworth called Rumsfeld "an arrogant a*shole". :rotfl: But I digress -- back to the topic of Kargil.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Vivek_A » 06 Dec 2003 01:17

[quote]Originally posted by Mohan Raju:
BTW, David Hackworth called Rumsfeld "an arrogant a*shole". :D

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby AkshayM » 06 Dec 2003 03:07

Thanks Rangudu and Babui, Capt. Amarinder Singh's book is going to be the one.

Guest

Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Guest » 06 Dec 2003 08:50

Venkat R,

Where can one watch this movie ? Is it available on DVD to purchase ?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Babui » 08 Dec 2003 19:04

Robach - Movie is supposed to come out all over India on Dec 12th.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Aditya G » 08 Dec 2003 20:44

LoC Music: (check out 7.rm)

http://www.lockargil.com/audio/

<a href="http://www.lockargil.com/images/g23_b.jpg">image here</a>

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Aditya G » 19 Feb 2004 23:02

http://cgsc.cdm.oclc.org/coll2/image/83.pdf

<CENTER>MOUNTAIN WARFARE: THE NEED FOR SPECIALIST TRAINING

A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army
Command and General Staff College in partial
fulfillment of the requirements for the
degree
MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
General Studies

by

Muhammad Asim Malik, MAJ, Pakistan
B.A., Pakistan Military Academy,1989
BSC(Hons), Balochistan University, 1999

Fort Leavenworth, Kansas

2003</CENTER>
Havent read it yet, but i would not be surprised if it contains references to Kargil. If yes then it would be the first officially official account of the war on the ground from the PA's side.

RayC please share any comments if you have any.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby svinayak » 20 Feb 2004 03:42

During the Kargill war in 1998, Captain Sher Khan was
posthumously awarded the 'Nishan -E-Haider', Pakistan's highest military award , for his
extraordinary courage and leadership. At the peak of the battle, the officer conducted a
series of daring raids with a handful of men on enemy patrols and convoys. His last
action included a successful counterattack to recapture a post held by a larger enemy
force. Such leadership not only inspires subordinates but also raises the morale of the
entire outfit.
Junior leaders play a vital role in defensive battles. In Kashmir, a young captain
may be holding an isolated post with a handful of men under his command. When the
post is attacked he may be cut off from his battalion and left alone to face wave upon
wave of attacking enemy forces under the cover of a heavy artillery barrage. At such
times, when the ammunition is running out and many soldiers are injured and dying with
no chance of relief or reinforcement, it is the personal leadership of the officer that holds 26
26 Page 27 28
22
the post together. After one such attack in 1999, which left twenty-six Indian soldiers
dead, Colonel Sing, the Indian Commander, grudgingly admitted "the Pakistanis prefer to
fight it out rather than surrender."

----------------------
http://www.subcontinent.com/sapra/military/kargil12.html

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Joeqp » 20 Feb 2004 04:30

Here's a quote from this PoS:
<I>The U.S. Army .... does not have the entire range of mountain and high altitude environments needed to train troops for all kinds of contingencies.</I>

Oh, I see! The US Army doesn't have **Kashmir**!! Kashmir is this wonderful place, where Paki soldiers kill dozens of Indians and are themselves never injured, where Pakis are masters of the terrain (since noone else has access to this magical place, "Kashmir"!), where all Paki soldiers are above average, where the Paki soldiers are "fair" and "tall", where ...

You get the picture. Puke.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Vriksh » 20 Feb 2004 05:15

went through the whole report... nothing of substance apart from the between the lines confession that India controls much of Siachen since IA controls Bilafond La, Sia la and some other key passes. In another admission the IA "white devils" mountain elite group trained the IA for Kargil where the NLI went downhill skiing after they tried doing a Siachen on Kargil.

He harps quite a bit on morale due to difficult conditions etc. And quotes the Naveed episode of puke bravery where Pukes managed the daredevil chopper manouver and incidently had to withdraw after IA folks brokered a ceasefire and some reports suggest that there was mutual (Puke mutual = unilateral) de-escalation. It seems in that raid a lot of Puke brave forces lost limbs to frostbite but mission was accomplished (ie. more TSPA in houriland).

One thing is certain... TSPA is irrational though most of its claims are bluster... there may be some super motivated soldiers in their ranks that are willing to die to deliver a cut or two to India, perhaps such individuals should be targeted for special attention to show themselves and eliminated so that surprises that they could potentially pull can be minimized

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby shaunak » 21 Feb 2004 09:14

Originally posted by Ray:

One could say many things but then it is best not said. Apart from other facts, all this going gaga about SF and Cdos is OK, but then………

I sure wish Mohinder Puri write his memoirs honestly……well, as honestly as he can ;)
Would you please elaborate this statement of yours in the Special Forces thread? I'm sure we'll value your perspective highly.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby svinayak » 03 Mar 2004 05:12

http://terrorism.freeservers.com/kargil.html

Facts about the 1999 India-Pakistan conflict in Kargil

FACT 1. Pakistan used 5,000 of its troops to infiltrate into various peaks in the Kargil sector. Some local "Mujahideen" were used, but only as porters. The NLI troops occupied a total of 132 posts.
”An Analysis of the Kargil Conflict 1999" by Brig. (Ret) Shaukat Qadir of Pakistan Army

It says; "They were occupying 132 posts of various sizes. Whereas the total number of troops occupying these posts never exceeded 1000 (from all ranks),four times this number provided the logistical backup to undertake the operation. While the occupants were essentially soldiers of the Northern Light Infantry (NLI),there were some local Mujahideen assisting as labour to carry logistical requirements."

"Pakistan: The Eye of the Storm", Owen Bennett Jones pp 91-92

Jones says; When they speak off the record, however Pakistani politicians and army officers tell a very different story, freely conceding that denials about Kargil were nothing more than barefaced lies. The Northern Light Infantry, they admit, did cross the line of control. The truth is that, just as in 1947 and 1965, Pakistan tried to fudge its offensive by saying it was carried out by volunteers and not regular troops. In reality, the Islamic militants probably accounted for no more than 10 per cent of the total force and were given only portering duties. Not all of them were from the NLI: some were commandos from the Special Services Group.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT 2. The PAF and PN were not consulted in the operation. The Pakistan Chief of Air Staff refused to support the Army after he was informed of this operation.

From Shaukat Qadir's analysis; "Soon thereafter ,the first formal briefing of the entire operation was made for the benefit of the prime minister in April,in the presence of the other services. Since the CNS was on a visit abroad, the navy’s reaction was voiced cautiously, but the CAS was openly critical and skeptical of the conclusion that India would not opt for an all-out war. He also voiced the view that in the event of war, the air force would not be able to provide the support that the army might seek."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT 3. After the initial setback, Indian Army gained many tactical victories fighting uphill despite the fact that the Pakistani NLI had dug in bunkers and were well stocked and armed.

From Shaukat Qadir's analysis; "Under cover of fire, elements of 2 Rajputana Rifles captured what the Indians called ‘Tololing top ’,(Point 45907),the most dominating height directly overlooking Dras,on 12 June. An adjacent post was captured on 13 June, and Tiger Hills (Point 5140), another dominating height, fell on 20 June. The army had continued to assert that no posts had fallen to the Indians,which reaffirms the contention that no effort was made to explain such a loss, or why it could not recur. However, in this case, it appears that Sharif found the Indian claims more credible than the Pakistan army’s denials."

"Limited Conflict Under the Nuclear Umbrella: Indian and Pakistani Lessons from the Kargil Crisis " by Ashley J. Tellis, C. Christine Fair, Jamison Jo Medby of RAND Corp"

In the above publication, the authors, while discussing the various Pakistani views of the Kargil operation, write; "A second common variant is that Kargil was a tactical success but a strategic failure. This view was also articulated by a number of in-formants and has been reiterated in various articles. Shireen Mazari, for example, has written that “the military aspect of the Kargil action was simply brilliant.” Later in the same piece she laments that India was able to “turn a military defeat into a diplomatic victory . . . [and] that Pakistan was unable to translate a tremendous military success into a politico-diplomatic victory.” Interlocutors who held this view asserted—often against the weight of evidence—that the Pakistani Army’s operational performance at Kargil was flawless, and they in-variably concluded that the Army’s attainment of strategic surprise at Kargil was in effect synonymous with the achievement of victory in the campaign writ large. Since those who hold this view entirely neglect the fact that the Indian Army, once mobilized, redeployed, and committed to eviction operations, actually secured repeated tactical victories—often against great odds—throughout the concluding half of the Kargil campaign, they continue to claim that Kargil must be chalked up as an operational victory for the Pakistani Army even if it otherwise appears to be an unnecessary political defeat for Pakistan at large."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT 4. Pakistan Army endorsed the decision to pull back the troops after the operation failed.

”Pak army’s research and analysis is weak " - An article by Pakistan Defense analyst Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa Agha in "The Friday Times" March 29 - April 04, 2002.

While examining the analysis by Brig. Qadir, Dr. Agha says; "There is no mention of the Indian forces hitting back after they had taken the initial beating. There is also no reference to the situation when the Pakistan Army had run out of manpower properly acclimatized to fight at such heights. Reports suggest that during the last week of the operation Pakistan had to pull out men deployed at Siachin, leaving positions there vulnerable to an Indian attack. Hence, it was in the Army’s interest to convince the prime minister to negotiate peace with the adversary. The study, however, puts the blame squarely on Nawaz Sharif who, it is claimed, had chickened out and gone to talk to the Americans and the Indians."

"Pakistan: The Eye of the Storm", Owen Bennett Jones

Jones says; "Most insiders say…that (Gen.Musharraf) was in full agreement with Shrif’s decision to go to Washington.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT 5. Pakistan Army lost 2,700 men in Kargil, thereby suffering a more devastating blow than in the 1965 and 71 wars as all this happened in one small theatre of ops.

Vajpayee 'was ready to solve Kashmir'

"In his first ever interview since being deported from the country about 14 months ago, Nawaz lifted the curtain on the events that led to his downfall in October, 1999 in an interview to Urdu daily Jang where he made no secret that Kargil was a bigger disaster than 1965 and the 1971 wars because Pakistan lost over 2,700 soldiers. The entire Northern Light Infantry was wiped out. "When I reminded Musharraf of his claim that the operation will be risk-free, he replied that the Indians had resorted to carpet bombing, which looked rather naive to me," he said. "Didn't you know that this will happen?" Nawaz said he had asked his army chief. "Let me add here that Pakistanis fighting in Kashmir were without shelter, and some of the soldiers in the bunkers and outposts had been exposed to the extent that they lost their skulls by the dozens. The Indians were closing in on us when the Washington agreement was arrived at for an honourable pull back," he told the paper."

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Leonard » 10 Mar 2004 00:53

Has anybody seen or read this article ???

<<<
new F-16 mag hitting the shelves this month from 'KeyMags' publishers of AFM.


In the combat section towards the back though it lists the PAF F-16s as having suffered badly at the hands of the IAF M2Ks and MiG-29s during Kargil, and claims there were losses!


>>>>

Please Post what Magazine they are referring to ??

Air-Force Monthly ???

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Leonard » 10 Mar 2004 00:55

Up

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby putnanja » 10 Mar 2004 01:07

War and peace on Gurkha Post

Troops battle winter on LoC

In the wake of the Kargil war, a series of local tactical errors on India's part allowed Pakistan to occupy the southern face of Point 5353, thus providing the enemy forces a clear view of Sando Top, an important post.

When Operation Parakram began a little over three years ago, both the Indian Army and the Pakistan Army began trading ferocious artillery fire up and down the LoC. In the high mountains, sudden winds and unpredictable atmospheric conditions ensure that shells rarely land where gunners intend them to. But, with a direct line of observation available to them, the Pakistani forces on Point 5353 should have been able to pass on corrections that would have enabled their artillery to obliterate Sando Top.

If, that is, the Pakistani troops on Point 5353 had been given the chance. Indian soldiers on three posts, namely Point 5165, Point 5240 and Point 5100, guided their superior 155-millimetre Bofors howitzers with devastating accuracy. Pakistani troops on Point 5353 were first hit with smoke-filled mortar shells, to flush them out of their bunkers, and then with air-burst artillery, which showered down shards of metal at great speed. Well over 40 Pakistanis are believed to have died on Point 5353. Pakistan could not reinforce the troops since the Indian soldiers on Point 5165 and Point 5240 were in a position to hit their supply lines.


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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Jayram » 10 Mar 2004 03:24

From Ravi's Link Above
For the 17 Maratha Light Infantry's commanding officer, K.S. Rajagopalan, the isolation sometimes presents horrible ethical dilemmas. "The father of one of my troops has passed away," he says sadly, "but should I tell him what has happened, knowing I have no way of getting him off his post until snow conditions are better? I've done what I would have liked my commanding officer to do if I was in his position. I hope he will understand when I give him the bad news."


And This
"Men are often reluctant to report life-threatening symptoms at posts which cannot be reached by helicopters," says Nikhil Bhardwaj, who left a comfortable hospital job in Bangalore to serve in the Indian Army. The reason is simple: troops know their brothers-in-arms may attempt ground evacuation across the snow, which could lead to dozens of lives being lost to save one.

Man Hats off to these Jawans. The best in the world.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Aditya G » 10 Mar 2004 11:51

that is, the Pakistani troops on Point 5353 had been given the chance. Indian soldiers on three posts, namely Point 5165, Point 5240 and Point 5100, guided their superior 155-millimetre Bofors howitzers with devastating accuracy. Pakistani troops on Point 5353 were first hit with smoke-filled mortar shells, to flush them out of their bunkers, and then with air-burst artillery, which showered down shards of metal at great speed. Well over 40 Pakistanis are believed to have died on Point 5353. Pakistan could not reinforce the troops since the Indian soldiers on Point 5165 and Point 5240 were in a position to hit their supply lines.
Hope that this finally settles the Pt 5353 issue.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby JCage » 12 Mar 2004 17:35

Yeah. And this same bloke was the one who shamelessly time and again, castigated the Army brass, George Fernandes for being turncoats, incompetent, insert expletive of choice here, in one learned article after another....till the Kargil war was about Pt 5353 and nothing else.
And this is the way he chooses to eat humble pie, notes it as a side note after making a mountain out of a molehill. :roll:

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby RayC » 12 Mar 2004 19:39

Originally posted by aditya.g:
http://cgsc.cdm.oclc.org/coll2/image/83.pdf

<CENTER>[b]MOUNTAIN WARFARE: THE NEED FOR SPECIALIST TRAINING

A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army
Command and General Staff College in partial
fulfillment of the requirements for the
degree
MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
General Studies

by

Muhammad Asim Malik, MAJ, Pakistan
B.A., Pakistan Military Academy,1989
BSC(Hons), Balochistan University, 1999

Fort Leavenworth, Kansas

2003</CENTER>
Havent read it yet, but i would not be surprised if it contains references to Kargil. If yes then it would be the first officially official account of the war on the ground from the PA's side.

RayC please share any comments if you have any.[/b]
I read it and offered my comments to Sunil S. Of course, it is very guarded. Guess why? Military men are paranoid about security. :)

It is a good article. Not mine, but the Paki officer's. of course, it will be a trifle weighed in Pakis favour.

Further, I don't go ballastic against Pakistan and its army for the simple reason I don't have to. We are better off in all spheres. I have seen them not once, but three times seriously not counting CI and other minor times. I respect them as one would an opponent in a boxing bout, but am not enamoured or overwhelmed by the opponent. One of the first lessons in warfare is - do not take the opponent lightly even if they are ragtag. Saw what happened to the mighty US against the impoverished Viet Congs? Pride goes before a Fall and I don't mean autumn. :)

That is why maybe some are disappointment by my lacklustre involvement when discussing the Pakistanis.

Only the weak make a song and dance and go ballastic. I believe in the submariners' motto - Run Silent, Run Deep.

Of course that does not mean others are not doing an excellent job on this forum. They are and maybe better than me and most.

I also wish to state that while we must be proud of everything that we do, yet we should not be ostriches digging our head in the sand. Let us also look at our deficiencies and rectify the same as early as possible and with the least of fanfare so that the principle of war - Surprise is not compromised.

Kargil was a surprise or wasn't it?

I enjoy hearing from all of you since you are not inhibited in thought or rigid as I could be and your posts are a breath of fresh air bringing me to reality and beyond the realms of the conditioning of my mind by so many years in uniform.

As regards the Dras and Kaksar sector where my battalion was in operation well before Kargil, one of jawans died. Helipcopters refused to land because of soft snow. We evacuated the body after 7 months! Imagine my moral dilemma as the Commanding Officer!. Likewise, six bodies lay in the snow after an avalanche! Nothing could be done. I died every minute. It is not that I did not ventured out. I did and I had to do it more, just to prove that I was equally ready to face the dangers of weather and the enemy. In fact, quite a few of my officers did things that would look stupid under normal circumstances. But we had to do it so as to keep the morale high.

Our doctor used to 'cure' diseases over telephone to inaccessible posts. We used local dogs to send medicines! Christ, it was a great command and yet very scary from the morals point of view!

Command is a very difficult job and that is why many with connections just ensure that it is exactly two years and no more. I commanded for four and a half year. I enjoyed every minute and am proud to be a better man because of that. Very little in life flumoxes me. Things could always have been worse.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Aditya G » 12 Mar 2004 20:12

Earlier I used to think that Swami was just another dork on the hunt for fame by needlessly kicking up mud at everyone.

But sometimes I think that he is one of the few who are actually trying to do their job right - his job is to tell the people what he sees. Mistakes have been made, but its not that the Army is perfect all times.

Like nitin said, for years he was going on and one about 5353, it is good that we know today what happened at 5353 - fact is that the Pakistanis had it for a brief period and someone was there to report it.

RayC,

You finally sound like a retired man :D (runs to the nearest trench)

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby RayC » 12 Mar 2004 20:19

Originally posted by aditya.g:

RayC,

You finally sound like a retired man :D (runs to the nearest trench)
I take you seriously. Could you amplify so that I learn. I look forward to Nitin, Shiv, Koshy, Rudra, Jagan, YIP and many other's post.

They have much information to give. It gives me a lead to probe with my friends and I become more educated.

Whats retirement got to do with it. I still contribute through articles in military magazines and with my friends. Many look forward to my 'insights' including Army Commanders! Friend, much of the lead is from BRF and other sites, thereafter a little research.

An army man NEVER retires. He just hangs his boot. We fade away and we NEVER say DIE.

George J

Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby George J » 12 Mar 2004 21:16

Originally posted by aditya.g:
http://cgsc.cdm.oclc.org/coll2/image/83.pdf

<CENTER>[b]MOUNTAIN WARFARE: THE NEED FOR SPECIALIST TRAINING

A thesis presented ....
by

Muhammad Asim Malik, MAJ, [/b]
There is a link to BR in his references.... ;)

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Rudra » 12 Mar 2004 22:15

> were first hit with smoke-filled mortar shells

ancient native N3*N1 wisdom applied here. Irula and other
skilled tribes often take contracts to clear farms
and plantations of rats and snakes....thick smoke
down the burrows soon brings them out or suffocates
them.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Cybaru » 12 Mar 2004 22:32

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
Irula and other skilled tribes often take contracts to clear farms and plantations of rats and snakes
Whoaa!
Havent heard about them in a long long time now.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Rudra » 12 Mar 2004 22:38

they used to come up on TV quite often. 300% success rate and for real, no mushpromise saar.

http://www.odysseymagazine.com/pages/fj/2000/2000-02-fj.php

there are other nearby 'fierce' tribes in the Nilgiris.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Cybaru » 12 Mar 2004 23:01

Well nothing to do with kargil again, so will stop after this.. But if you do want to read about the irula's there is a nice book called "snakeman", its a book on romulus whitaker by his wifey, but has lotsa details about irula tribesmen. I beleive that most of the snake venom that madras snake park collects still is almost exclusively provided by the irula tribes. Its a very nice read.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Ashutosh » 13 Mar 2004 02:01

Anybody know more about the "White Devils"?

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby JCage » 13 Mar 2004 12:50

Originally posted by aditya.g:
Earlier I used to think that Swami was just another dork on the hunt for fame by needlessly kicking up mud at everyone.

But sometimes I think that he is one of the few who are actually trying to do their job right - his job is to tell the people what he sees. Mistakes have been made, but its not that the Army is perfect all times.

Like nitin said, for years he was going on and one about 5353, it is good that we know today what happened at 5353 - fact is that the Pakistanis had it for a brief period and someone was there to report it.

RayC,

You finally sound like a retired man :D (runs to the nearest trench)
Hi Aditya,

If it were merely reporting what he sees ..then Swami would be not merely tolerable but an asset. Problem is that he is a Frontline dude- so BJP/NDA etc are the original sin, every one associated with their failures are crooks..by default this view extends to the brass who cooperate/deal with the politiocs as part of their duty...so he wastes a lot of time taking potshots in their directions.

Note the big brouhaha he made over Gen VIJ getting a medal after Kargil etc..

Man has a very strong political streak running in him..so that makes his words suspect.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby JCage » 13 Mar 2004 12:54

Originally posted by RayC:
An army man NEVER retires. He just hangs his boot. We fade away and we NEVER say DIE.[/QB]
Amen!!

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Aditya G » 07 Apr 2004 19:20

The Pakistanis have Kargil all figured out:

[Link to Map]

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby JCage » 07 Apr 2004 19:26


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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Rangudu » 03 May 2004 19:03

X-posted.

Did the Pakis lose a P-3C during Kargil?

From the German media outlet, Deutsche Presse-Agentur. No URL.

Pakistan steps up efforts to acquire defence equipment from U.S.

Deutsche Presse-Agentur

April 20, 2004, Tuesday
12:26:40 Central European Time

With the lifting of economic and military sanctions by the United States, Pakistani's armed forces have stepped up efforts to acquire military hardware and spare parts for their ageing equipment, officials said Tuesday. "There are many items on our shopping list including long-range maritime patrol aircraft - P-3C Orions for the navy, six C-130 military transport aircraft for air force and a variety of accessories for other weapons of U.S.-origin," defence officials told Deutsche Presse-Agentur, dpa in Islamabad.

The U.S. had early this month waived sanctions on Pakistan for one year, which it had imposed following a bloodless military coup, which overthrew Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in October 1999. "We are in touch with the Americans for delivery of P-3C Orions and hope to get these aircraft," officials said. The U.S. sold three Orions to Pakistan in early 1990s, which one was shot down by India during a military conflict with Pakistan in Kargil in the disputed Himalayan state of Jammu and Kashmir in summer 1999. :eek: :confused:

With the easing of sanctions, the navy also hopes to get spares of the remaining two aircraft from U.S. soon, officials said. "Apart from U.S. equipment, we are also exploring other options available," they said and added "we are also looking at the possibility of buying a Spanish non-attack surveillance aircraft CASA-295 for the navy." Two missile boats of German origin, being presently manufactured at the port city of Karachi in collaboration with Singapore is also part of Pakistan's plan to diversify sources of the military equipment. These boats will be in addition to four F-22 frigates that Pakistan is buying from China. A formal deal will be signed during or after Pakistan naval chief Admiral Shahid Karimullah's visit to Beijing in May this year.

As for the equipment that Pakistan plans to buy for its air force, the officials said six C-130s would join the air force fleet by the end of this year while efforts are on to convince the U.S. to deliver F-16 aircraft. Pakistan and China have already tested jointly manufactured JF-17 (Thunder) combat aircraft. Pakistan air force is likely to get the first batch of 12 Thunders by end 2005. Pakistani armed forces suffered badly in the wake of a string of economic and military sanctions imposed on it before and after its nuclear tests in May 1998.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Jagan » 03 May 2004 20:14

Rangudu,

thats DDM at work. Deustche Dork Media :lol: .

The Paks lost a P3 , but that was in an accident. Not a shoot down. you might want to look up thier attrition details on warbirdsofindia.

http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/Crashes/PAF/dsearch.asp?serial=105

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby Manas » 03 May 2004 20:35

The Atlantique was shot down soon after Kargil. It is not the P3 but a maritime reconaissance platform nevertheless.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby AmanC » 10 May 2004 20:33

How about starting a discussion of the lessons learnt and implemented after Op Vijay? Considering the fact that we are approaching the fifth anniversary of 'Kargil' it may help in correlating facts and information.
Ray, why don't you begin by giving some inputs. For example it woule be interesting to know about the concept of higher leadership in war and how it played out in Kargil given the circumstancs and the tactics involved in mountain warfare.
It would also be interesting to tabulate the progress in career made by battalion/regiment commanders and brigade commanders during the war. If I'm not wrong, Brig Surinder Singh, Brig MPS Bajwa, Brig Devinder Singh are some of the bde cdrs who have failed to make the grade to next rank. In fact, if we leave out Surinder Singh, the other two did a good job in their respective sectors.

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby jrjrao » 27 May 2004 22:06

Pakistan's treachery in Kargil

By Col Manjit Singh

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/04may27/edit.htm#3

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Re: Kargil Revisited

Postby RayC » 28 May 2004 08:13

Originally posted by aman:
How about starting a discussion of the lessons learnt and implemented after Op Vijay? Considering the fact that we are approaching the fifth anniversary of 'Kargil' it may help in correlating facts and information.
Ray, why don't you begin by giving some inputs. For example it woule be interesting to know about the concept of higher leadership in war and how it played out in Kargil given the circumstancs and the tactics involved in mountain warfare.
It would also be interesting to tabulate the progress in career made by battalion/regiment commanders and brigade commanders during the war. If I'm not wrong, Brig Surinder Singh, Brig MPS Bajwa, Brig Devinder Singh are some of the bde cdrs who have failed to make the grade to next rank. In fact, if we leave out Surinder Singh, the other two did a good job in their respective sectors.
Aman,

Devinder was sidelined by his Div Cdr. Ask me privately.

MPS Bajwa was the son of the Punjab (Congress) Finance (?) Minsiter who was killed by the terrorists. He left the Army (if I remember correctly) on his own accord.

Surinder Singh is from my regiment. I wonder if he was more sinned against than sinning.

I appreciate Kishen Pal and Mohinder Puri since they never interfered with their subordinate commander's plan or progress of battle. That is why the troops delivered. Nor did they hog the limelight.


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