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Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

krisna
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 31 Mar 2011 09:02

viewtopic.php?p=1056899#p1056899 - dated 28 march 2011 10.39 pm.

Arjun - your post is spot on similar to bains pdf posted by somnath originally.

Bill Gates and Buffet are certainly not to be denigrated given their huge achievements - but when they come in to India on a explicit mission of evangelizing US-style philanthropy, one can expect some push-back on the 'sermonizing' aspect.

This is american style-

Finally - in a country like India massive growth in the economy is likely to be the biggest game-changer for the masses. By being the drivers for the growth - Indian industrialists are actually playing a central role in the upliftment of the country in any case.


Agree. this will improve with time. In fact early pioneers were the ones quoted in the article- founders of tatas birlas and bajajs and many others also quoted. we can learn from them. Todays pioneers are buffets and gates no doubt.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Mar 2011 09:09

sorry, but I couldnt get any source for his 0.6% or 5 billion figure in that bain report nor any indication how Arpan- the author reached that figure.

From where did he get that figure?? Could anybody point to the page /para where he mentions the source

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 31 Mar 2011 09:39

ravi_ku wrote:sorry, but I couldnt get any source for his 0.6% or 5 billion figure in that bain report nor any indication how Arpan- the author reached that figure.

From where did he get that figure?? Could anybody point to the page /para where he mentions the source

If you want more details, you will obviously need to pay their multi-million $ engagement fees. So what if the study area is philanthropy - did you expect them to be charitable and forego their fees for items as critical as the backup data to the figures that they have publicly thrown about with such abandon? 8)

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 31 Mar 2011 09:49

^^^I thought there was enough discussed on the topic already...But the same chestnuts are being beaten about again and again..

From the Bain report:

1. Philanthrophy-to-GDP ratio in India - 0.6%, US - 2.2%
2. Individual contributions to # 1 above - US - 75%, India - 10%..In other words, bulk of the philanthrophy in India comes out of the govt, multilateral institutions etc
3. The report goes on to articulate the systemic issues in India...

the simple point is this (I have said it many times now)...What Buffet/Gates have done is path-breaking in scale and ambition on philanthrophy...If they are on an evangelisation mission to India - more power to them...No need to denigrate them by attributing ulterior motives like tax breaks etc...On the other hand, charity is an intensely personal decision, there cant be any moral judgement passed one way or the other..But the macro numbers show that India has a long way to go before claiming "glory"...(BTW, the Bain numbers now are accepted by most people commenting on the issue - a Google, yes, old Goolge this time would yield many references)...In case someone has a quibble on the data, thats fine, its a POV..But to question that, it would be more credible if the quibble is backed up by alterate sources of data, or at least a hypothesis of that..

On individual cases, there are people in India who are in this heavily - Tatas, Premji we have spoken about..I am told GM Rao as well now, and of course many others, Birla and Bajaj included...But it is completely wrong to say that GD Birla and Jamnalal Bajaj donated their "entire personal wealth" to charity..If they did, Rahul Bajaj wont be owning ~40% of Bajaj Auto, or Kumar Birla wont be owning 20-25% of Hindalco...From the same Bain report, the total holdings of Bajaj trusts is estimated to be 150 million dollars...The value of Rahul Bajaj's stake in just one company, Bajaj Auto (inherited from Jamnalal Bajaj) is today about 4 billion dollars...

In short, there is action, but at a macro level, "individual philathrophy intensity of GDP" is many tens of times lower for India compared to the US...It might change, might not...We dont know...Regardless, Gates/Buffet are great inspirations...
Last edited by somnath on 31 Mar 2011 09:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 31 Mar 2011 09:51

Some voices from other high-growth developing nations, on the value of US-style philanthropy. There was a similar debate in China as well when Gates and Buffet went on their mission to China...Not necessarily endorsing what Carlos Slim says here and obviously he could be pushing his own interests - but it is a matter to be debated whether billionaire money might not be better spent in a high-growth developing economy in the form of investments that can generate higher growth and employment : Carlos Slim on Philanthropy

Carlos Slim Derides Billionaire Giveaways as Gates and Buffett Prepare China Pitch

September 29, 2010, 6:00 am

The Mexican telecommunications magnate Carlos Slim, the world’s richest man, said Wednesday that his money would be better spent on projects that create jobs than on charity, according to Bloomberg.

Speaking at a conference in Sydney as Bill Gates and Warren Buffett prepare to host a dinner in Beijing to promote philanthropy among China’s wealthy, Mr. Slim said employment is the best weapon to fight poverty.

“Trillions of dollars have been given to charity in the last 50 years, and they don’t solve anything,” he said, adding, in apparent reference to the Gates-Buffett “Giving Pledge,” “To give 50 percent, 40 percent, that does nothing.”

Wednesday’s dinner has sparked an unprecedented public debate in China about the value of philanthropy and whether the Gates-Buffett giving approach is appropriate for the country, The Wall Street Journal and Reuters write.

In India, another country with a growing tycoon class, the technology mogul Shiv Nadar has pledged 10 percent of his wealth to philanthropy, Indian newspaper The Economic Times says.

Mr. Nadar said he was influenced by the example of Bill and Melinda Gates but that he intends to build a less “project driven” philanthropic institution that, unlike the Gates’ foundation, will not spend itself down within a specific time after his death.

somnath
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 31 Mar 2011 09:57

People often confuse philanthrophy with "small time charity" - give some clothes to the destitute, or some money...The larger enterprises work at much bigger scales, including organisations like CRY in India...They work on specific projects that complement govt efforts in the realm of education, healthcare and the like...the Tata trusts, for example, run successful elite schools like TIFR and TISS, whih are not just into education but also into cutting edge basic research...

Organisations like the Bill Gates Foundation work at even larger scales, funding R&D projects on eradication of malaria for example...Or clean tech...In many ways, these philanthrophies are looking to be VCs/angel investors to frontier area projects without having the necessity of a "payback"...

So if Warren Buffet earns (say) 1 billion dollars every year from his equity in Berkshire, he can either buy more stock of the company with that, or invest in other businesses, or buy real estate in Manhatton or islands off Monaco, or give it away to Bill Gates Foundation...the perspective of people like Buffet is that his company, Berkshire will anyway take advantage of any emerging investment opportunity that he sees..therefore, his personal money need not be restricted to be used in his "vision", but can be used for a larger cause...Its a perspective, and there are no right or wrong answers...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 31 Mar 2011 10:13

viewtopic.php?p=1056937#p1056937 - dated 29 march 9.52 pm somnath
Most philanthrophic/charity donations in India too are tax-friendly...At an infinitesimaly small level, I have received tax breaks for all my donations to CRY, and I know for a fact that Azim Premji's foundation is a tax-exempt entity..the "religious" aspect touches India as well - the well-known cases, Birla especially, deploy a large part of their corpuses towards the various Birla Mandirs across the country..


As per bains pdf the Indian tax laws are not charity friendly. So I am not sure whether to believe this or not. Excerpts from the Bains report posted.
2) Donors who provide material goods receive no tax benefits.
3) The current tax deduction structure does not encourage donations. Current tax laws allow deductions of either 50 percent of the amount given or 10 percent of taxable income, whichever is lower. However, there are exceptions where 100 percent deductions are available; for example, contributions to relief funds established by the central and state governments.


What Buffet is doing, and he is doing it across the world, including in the US, is very important..He is asking successful industrialists to give up bulk of their wealth (the paper worth) for a larger cause...This has hardly been practised in India - barring the Tatas and Azim Premji, no industrialist has parked away a sigificant part of their wealth for charity...that is one..


Indians have had philanthropists - saying that it has not been practised is not true.
Two, it is also about the structure..The Bill Gates foundation is sponsoring work in areas that are right at the cutting edge - for example, on research to eradicate malaria...There are lessons that can be drawn there as well...


Yes it is laudable so also Indians have done- see the list-http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1057338#p1057338 dated 29 march 10.24 am and viewtopic.php?p=1057349#p1057349 dated 29 march 10.33 am by ravi_ku


By Arjun, dated 29 march 10.46 am
True, but my point is also that when one says only 0.6% of GDP goes towards charity, I am pretty sure this does not count the massive amounts deposited into hundis of temples across India (as also that of other religions) every year.

viewtopic.php?p=1056982#p1056982 dated 29 march 12.39 am ravi_ku
The management of all major hindu religious trusts are taken over by the govt. Are the TTD funds from individuals/institutions? Who controls the money? The govt. Who does it come from? The general public but in records it will go as going from govt.


according to bains pdf- 65% of donations come from govt. how much of it comes indirectly from common Indians?? :((
The needs of a growing country and a developed country are different.
Many of the trust in US are set up for tax benefits. and because there is an estate tax.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Just because some western guy tries to patronise, we dont need to fall for it.

spot on as per bains pdf

viewtopic.php?p=1056986#p1056986 dated 29 march 12.43 am ravi_ku

M
any of the trusts are for that exquisite purpose. Some do gooders will give the money to charity but make sure the control must remain with them and their children.


even in america there are lot of family controlled firms/business like India.

viewtopic.php?p=1056996#p1056996 dated 29 march 12.55 am. ravi_ku
Important distinction between Indians and non Indians. sadly we fall for the american one. similarly with founders of tatas birlas and bajajs who did their work silently with no media blitz. it is more in tune with Indian culture as mentioned in the article.

viewtopic.php?p=1057002#p1057002 dated 29 march 1.03 am somnath
the difference between (say) a Jamnalal Sons trust and a Bill Gates Foundation would be on objective, legacy and access to cash flows.
..
Indian charitable organistaions have problems as mentioned in bains pdf report. Legacy- gates does not have one as yet. no point on commenting at present.

viewtopic.php?p=1057013#p1057013 dated 29 march 1.11 am somnath
What chance do I have? Warren Buffet is doin that job

we already have tatas and azim premji doing for India as per your own admission in posts.yeah cash is less obviously compared to buffet. :mrgreen:
About the so-called ambani uni - is that philanthrophy or another business stream? What are the fees charged? What is the endowment created?


Ambani is still young. He has a long way to go. Buffet is in 70s. he mentioned about charity after he had enough. Buffet might not have done charity when he is of ambani age. so wait for Ambani till he has had his work. This is unfair comparison.Also India now is creating more wealth, will take more time to mature.

viewtopic.php?p=1057070#p1057070 dated 29 march 2.27 am arjun.
But does not make sense to force the pace on any such standards in India - India will create its own examples eventually over the next 50 - 75 years.

spot on per bains pdf posted by somnath.India will do likely better than america.

viewtopic.php?p=1057176#p1057176 dated march 29 5.48 am amit
I agree with Arjun on this point. You can't compare US standards with those of India.
Think of it this way. After how many generations of affluence, the type of which the world has probably never seen (in terms of breadth of affluence) before, has this philanthropy habit come in? Contrast that with Mukesh Bhai. It's useful to remember that Mukesh (and his brother) were born in a one-room chawl in Mumbai when Ambani senior was just starting out.

Indians are only now coming out of abject poverty that the country was plunged into for about 1000 years. And Mukesh Ambani's generation is probably the first after a millennium which has seen a horizontal growth of prosperity across different sections of society. You'll need some more generations to go through that experience before you can expect the type of philanthropy shown by a Gates or Buffet, IMO.

spot on as per bains pdf- problems related to charity in India.


viewtopic.php?p=1057198#p1057198 dated 29 march 7.06 am somnath
Philanthrophy cannot be "forced", it is a question of inner calling...But the template setup by the likes of Gates and Buffet (and even before, by the Rockefellers and Oppenheimers) is great..And if they are on an evangelisation mission to India on this, more power to them! There isnt a need to denigrate that effort (or indeed the individuals) or invent "glories" in India on that topic...

The realisation comes at different ages- for buffet it comes at around 70 years of age. for others it is at early age - some Indians had it early. all are laudable only. no need to put down Indian achievements also. Indians do not have the scale of money as buffet or gates. Philanthropy is inner calling and should be without strings. If they are on evangelisation mission it is not philanthropy. it becomes a sort of business type.



viewtopic.php?p=1057363#p1057363 dated 29 march 10.57 am shyam
Shankara Netralaya performs an eye surgery for $30. If we give money to professional charities, it would cost $300 in India and may be $10000 in Massa.

Interesting I did not know this.

Just a collection of statements made by various brfites and related it to bains pdf as somnath beieves it.
It is just an attempt from my side. :wink:

Virupaksha
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Mar 2011 10:18

somnath wrote:^^^I thought there was enough discussed on the topic already...But the same chestnuts are being beaten about again and again..

From the Bain report:

1. Philanthrophy-to-GDP ratio in India - 0.6%, US - 2.2%
2. Individual contributions to # 1 above - US - 75%, India - 10%..In other words, bulk of the philanthrophy in India comes out of the govt, multilateral institutions etc
3. The report goes on to articulate the systemic issues in India....

Those figures are out of someone's musharaff and unless he provides with the actual sources and how they actually calculated it, quoting them is meaning less.

I am right now creating ravi_ku's report.

It is scientifically proven that philantrophy to GDP ratio in India- 25% , in US-0.0000001%

Note: All calculations and actual sources will be paid on payment of 10000000000000000000000$ into an account whose number will be given when sufficient bank worth is proved to ravi_ku's satisfaction. No guarantees or warranties implicitly or explicitly provided.

P.S: I have been asking what is the actual source behind that individual data, how they are calculated, what are included and what not of that Bain report. All I see are people quoting it, but no one can verify that data. Why are people still quoting from a source which is clearly unverifiable and may have questionable and variable interpretations and also the bain report is clearly agenda driven, thus cannot even say it is from a neutral source.

Anyways last post from me on this malicious agenda drive.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 31 Mar 2011 10:26, edited 1 time in total.

somnath
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 31 Mar 2011 10:26

^^^Ravi_ku-ji,

All power to you..

It is interesting that a name-anonymous blog is supposed to have more creds than Bain as a data source! Lage raho!

BTW, what is the standing assumption on why the Bain data HAS to be "erroneous, motivated" etc?

Virupaksha
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Mar 2011 10:32

somnath wrote:^^^Ravi_ku-ji,

All power to you..

It is interesting that a name-anonymous blog is supposed to have more creds than Bain as a data source! Lage raho!

for me even Bain doesnt have more cred than the neighbor next to me.

I am sorry I am not one of those who get googly eyed when they hear brands like harvard, nike, walmart, paan dabba.

I have seen enough of those living with those brands with no matter.
Each data source/brand has its agenda, so yup bain's words for me has the same worth as Johnny lever's words unless they prove that they have no agenda behind it.

So yup I will never give much cred to anything simply because it is some bain report.
The recent expose of british scholars behind Libya and global warming fiasco with all their "reputed" publications should have brought things into perspective for common people. Guess it will take more truths to come out before these "reputed" glass buildings are brought down.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 31 Mar 2011 10:38

ravi_ku wrote:Each data source/brand has its agenda,

nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I agree with you - every data source has an agenda...Why Bain? CSO has an agenda when it releases India's macro data...RBI has big agenda when they release monetary numbers...NSSO has an agenda on what sort of pverty estimates it releases...Point therefore is, you should be able to discern through the numbers to arrive at an optimum level, using models/experience whatever...Or have alternate data sources to validate or critique (for exmaple the NCAER income survey for poverty levels)..Without that, its just hand waiving...

BTW, chaps who can do both the above usually come from some of these "elite brands" - their ability and creds are co-terminus with the ability and creds of these orgs :wink: So its a self-fulfilling virtuous cycle!
Last edited by somnath on 31 Mar 2011 10:40, edited 1 time in total.

Arjun
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 31 Mar 2011 10:39

somnath wrote:So if Warren Buffet earns (say) 1 billion dollars every year from his equity in Berkshire, he can either buy more stock of the company with that, or invest in other businesses, or buy real estate in Manhatton or islands off Monaco, or give it away to Bill Gates Foundation...the perspective of people like Buffet is that his company, Berkshire will anyway take advantage of any emerging investment opportunity that he sees..therefore, his personal money need not be restricted to be used in his "vision", but can be used for a larger cause...Its a perspective, and there are no right or wrong answers...

Your argument can be used when investment rate in the country is good enough through other sources. In fact one can take the state of the US economy today itself as an example. Clearly there is immense whining (reflected in other BRF threads) on the state of the US economy - & high unemployment rates. Growth rate is low - investment is not picking up even as interest rates are near zero - QE2 has not resulted in credit pickup.

One could argue that American billionaires are not doing enough to invest in their own economy, and most are chasing growth in emerging markets. UHNWs in the US might be holding as much as 5 Trillion $ in assets - lets assume they divert 10% of the total wealth to employment generating investment in the US - that would result in an additional $500 Bn as investment. Assuming this is leveraged 2 times, we are talking of hiking the investment rate by 10% of US GDP. This could potentially grow the US economy by an additional 2 - 2.5%, and bring down unemployment by 1% or more.

Similar calculations may be even more valid in the case of developing countries like India and China. But yes, health and social indicators like eradicating malaria, primary education etc are better addressed through non-profits.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 31 Mar 2011 10:46

^^^Well, Warren Buffet has no restrictions on investment...If he thinks that there is a dearth of investment opportunities in the US (BTW, he doesnt, in fact quite to the contrary he thinks US is very well positioned, but let that pass), he can as well invest in Korea or India or China...Its not incumbent on him to give it to the Bill Gates Foundation...

Issue with "profit investing" is that it will always need returns..Philanthrophy doesnt, and hence can price the final service/product much better for the poorer consumer...In certain areas, public health for example, it is crucial...Malaria is largely a por man's curse...Going by current norms, an attempt at a malaria vaccine would cost 1-2 billion dollars in research..If it is done by Pfizer, the company will need to price that in...If it is done by Bill Gate Foundation, the price can be a fraction...I would say ditto with educaiton as well..

Of course, it doesnt work always -profit is the source of new innovation etc...But certain areas are better served by philanthrphy than by profit motives...Basically, here philanthrphy supplements govt efforts...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Mar 2011 11:03

somnath wrote:BTW, chaps who can do both the above usually come from some of these "elite brands" - their ability and creds are co-terminus with the ability and creds of these orgs :wink: So its a self-fulfilling virtuous cycle!

Usually they become a single agenda groups where all others agendas are pushed out and new ideas are curbed, and an incestious relationship between them.

An example: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html


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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 31 Mar 2011 13:48

^^^The official numbers, with tables etc here..
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011-prov ... t_2011.pdf

A lot more data-cuts here..

Key points:

1. Population growth is ~1.7%, dipping marginally..
2. Literacy rates are up to 74%, from 65% in 2001.
3. Sex ratio has improved (to 940, from 933), but sex ration in the "0-6" category has declined.

More data should be coming out in the next few weeks..The religion and caste numbers should give rise toa round of fun and games :wink:

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 31 Mar 2011 17:45

viewtopic.php?p=1056804#p1056804 dated 28 march 2011 7.53 am somnath
Quite to the contrary, most of the wealth was carved up between various brothers of the clan, with disputes over them spilling over well in to the 21st century.
This was never the intended idea behind the article but somnath picked it up when it was unwarranted.He does have the liberty to do what he pleases. In the same vein I have the liberty to point it out as it is an open forum.
america's 100 large family firms
Family owned busines in america

The greatest part of America’s wealth lies with family-owned businesses. Family firms comprise 80% to 90% of all business enterprises in North America.
Family-Owned Businesses contribute 64% of the GDP and employ 62% of the U.S. workforce.
More than 30% of all Family-Owned Businesses survive into the second generation. Twelve percent will still be viable into the third generation, with 3% of all family businesses operating at the fourth-generation level and beyond. family wranglings is one of the factors among many in this decline. compare this to Indian scene which is similar
34% of family firms expect the next CEO to be a woman.
Return On Assets is 6.65% greater than the same return for non-family firms.
Family firm performance is 5.5% greater when founding families maintain an ownership stake.


same as in India. again I suspect a world wide trait. It only shows humans behave similarly world wide.
some of them are well known world wide similar to tatas bajas and ambanis in India.
They all have had lot of internal wranglings in the family.
This is the trait common to all family business worldwide whether in europe asia or america. Hence no point in dissing Indian firms. Hope the point is made loud and clear. 8) TFWIW :wink:

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 31 Mar 2011 18:26

viewtopic.php?p=1056804#p1056804 dated 28 march 2011 9.53 am somnath
he quoted from the article when the the author mentioned that bill gates has opeartions in cayman islands and reno of nevada.
This is a real clincher..I dont know whether Bill Gates has anything in Cayman, but Indian business worthies have not evaded taxes!!! the list of big tax evaders and "deliberate NPA creators" in India would be a roll call of honour of the business families...

one can search on google with terms bill gates tax evasion cayman islands reno of nevada etc which gives many links including the reputable ones 8) .
Many brfites know that US gov has come down particularly hard on US firms operating outside US to evade taxes including bill gates also. Obama has been trying to get these worthies to pay taxes, avoid evasions etc. bill gates has something in cayman islands ireland and many other places. bliss to check them below. it is simple search on google.

microsoft and tax evasion

bill gates and cayman islands
bill gates and reno of nevada tax evasion


All I can say is the R Vaidya the author of the article is correct in mentioning that bill gates has operations in cayman islands and reno nevada etc to minimise or evade taxes. :wink:

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby VenkataS » 31 Mar 2011 18:50

I cannot believe that literacy rate has only increased by 9% points this decade from 65% to 74%, especially because it had such a heartening growth in the 1990s from 52% in 1991 to 65% in 2001. I expected it to be in the 77-80% range this census.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby joshvajohn » 31 Mar 2011 19:33

UPA not serious on black money issue: BJP
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 28445.html


Black money case: Govt refuses to reveal names
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... es/430156/

SC Flays Govt for Not Probing Sources of Black Money
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?716664

Centre against SIT on black money
http://www.zeenews.com/news696323.html

Cong leader helped Hasan Ali park money in Singapore
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... apore.html

Sule asked I-T to call off black money probe
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/mar/17 ... mumbai.htm


Supreme court should say that the present government under Manmohan singh has lost legal rights to continue as they protect those who are having black money (an thereby allow them to steal India's tax money) and give such black money against Indian interests.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Mar 2011 19:36

VenkataS wrote:I cannot believe that literacy rate has only increased by 9% points this decade from 65% to 74%, especially because it had such a heartening growth in the 1990s from 52% in 1991 to 65% in 2001. I expected it to be in the 77-80% range this census.

VenkataS,

What the figure 74% means : more than 90% of the children becoming literate.
The lagging behind are the adults.

From now on, even 5-10% increase is pretty good.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby VenkataS » 01 Apr 2011 04:33

ravi_ku,

Ideally close to 100% of the children should be becoming literate and we should be educating the illiterate adults as well.

I wish they had published the number of years of schooling per each person as well. They will be probably doing it in the final census results.

If you look at the 2011 literacy map there are vast swathes of the country which still have less than 70% literacy rate and a number of places where the female literacy rate is less than 60% which is a travesty.

Another disturbing trend is the decrease in the sex ratio in the 0-6 age group from 927 in 2001 to 914 now. It is at its lowest level now, and has been on a downward trajectory from 1961 onwards.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby VinodTK » 01 Apr 2011 05:33


somnath
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 01 Apr 2011 07:46

VenkataS wrote:Ideally close to 100% of the children should be becoming literate and we should be educating the illiterate adults as well.

I wish they had published the number of years of schooling per each person as well. They will be probably doing it in the final census results.

VenkataS-ji, its not just the adults, there are still gaps in child education as well...There is data that is published on enrollmnet ratios and importantly, drop-outs..Here are the latest numbers..

http://education.nic.in/AR/AR2009-10/AR2009-10.pdf
(go to page 330)..

As you can see, enrollment ratios are still less than 100%, espeically in the higher clases..Dropout rates are very high too, including in the primary classes as well...So there is progress, but in a large country, it is excruciatingly slow...

There are econometric models to extrapolate literacy levels every year - UNDP uses some for its annual HDI calculations...Interestingly, the numbers from the census arent far off from UNDP's estimates (74% v/s estimate of ~69-70%)...

Unfortunately the country has not had a half-decent HRD minister for 20 years now - Arjun Singh, followed by MM Joshi, followed by Arjun Singh again...Kapil Sibal is a good guy, but too busy being a general purpose hatchet man...If I were MMS, I would give it to Jairam Ramesh....Education at all levels, literacy to higher education, needs fresh ideas...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Theo_Fidel » 01 Apr 2011 11:17

ravi_ku wrote:What the figure 74% means : more than 90% of the children becoming literate.


Yes,

This is a base effect. As a proportion of the population the student cohort is decreasing. This is our demographic dividend. Anything 80%+ is excellent labor base. Improvements beyond that will be incremental.

What we should note is Bihar went from 47% to 64%, UP from 56% to 70% :eek:.

AP went from 60% to 68%. Yo golti's :) . UP just passed you by. Whats with that. Your female literacy sucks too. If AP had put up a decent number we would be in the 76% range at least.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vina » 01 Apr 2011 12:47

What we should note is Bihar went from 47% to 64%, UP from 56% to 70%


Hallelujah! More power to the heartland. Lead kindly from darkness to light! Way to go.

The regime change has worked miracles in Bihar. Another 2 terms for Nitish and positive changes in UP (I hope Mayawati gets the Nitish Kumar example) and the two giant laggards in India will become Tigers , given the low base, ample land, water human and other resources, including of course the votes in the Lok Sabha!

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 01 Apr 2011 13:13

^^^The issue is with dropout rates...As the axiom goes - you can take the horse to water.....

The other good development is of course on female literacy...The number of "incremental" literate population - women outnumber men in that list...So at the margin, more girls are going to schools - which has a domino effect on the families...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vina » 01 Apr 2011 13:43

You can see some of the changes brought about by high population growth.

When I was in school long long long ago, Kerala was the state with the highest pop density! And now we have WB, Bengal and UP having HIGHER (or nearly similar in UP) pop densities as Kerala!

And notice that Bihar and WB's pop densities are TWICE that of Tamil Nadu (okay, Bihar had Jharkand carved out of it.. but all the same). :shock:

And also notice, that Guj and Rajasthan, even with a much lower base added significantly more in absolute terms than TN and if the trends continue will have a HIGHER pop than TN! Who would have thunk that some 35/30 years ago?

Wonder how an arid /semi arid state like Rajasthan can support such a population load!

WB is going to go the way of Bangladesh (What with 3000+ pop density) if they don't pull their pants up and get the economy going again. Between the Commies and Didi, it seems like a lost cause.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 01 Apr 2011 14:12

^^Part of the reason is urbanisation...And population transfer to urban aglomerations and suburbs..So Noida, Greater NOIDA and beyond attract a lot of people, pusing up the population density of UP (plus UP lost Uttarakhand)...States like TN have always been quite urbanised, hence the "delta" is lesser...But as the larger north Indian states urbanise, they will attract a lot many more people from the north and the east...

vina wrote:WB is going to go the way of Bangladesh (What with 3000+ pop density) if they don't pull their pants up and get the economy going again. Between the Commies and Didi, it seems like a lost cause

+infinity.... :(

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Vipul » 01 Apr 2011 20:29

February exports up 49.7% y-o-y.

India’s exports in February rose an annual 49.7% to $23.6 billion, while imports for the month rose 21.2% on the year to $31.7 billion, government data released on Friday showed.

India’s trade deficit in February remained steady at $8.1 billion compared with $8 billion in January.

Exports in April-February rose an annual 31.4% to $208.2 billion. Oil imports for February fell an annual 0.3% to $8.2 billion.


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