Strategic Implications of India's ABM Test -2

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Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 05:34

I have said this in the previous version of this thread:

Expect the HQ-9 to be transferred to Pak, and CEO Musharraf saying:

"Alhamdulillah we have got ATBM technology".

http://missilethreat.com/systems/hq-9_china.html

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/surface ... le/hq9.asp

The HQ-9 was initially developed to replace the PLA’s bulk of obsolete HQ-2 (Chinese copy of the Soviet/Russian SA-2 Guideline), but the slow progress in the development forced the PLA to purchase the S-300PMU missile from Russia. By the time the HQ-9 was ready for operational deployment in the late 1990s, the missile was already behind foreign air-defence missiles such as U.S. PAC3 and Russian S-300PMU2 in terms of technology and performance. Only a small number of the HQ-9A are being deployed by the PLA for operational trial and evaluations. The naval variant of the HQ-9A is deployed onboard the Type 052C destroyer which was commissioned in 2004.


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Postby TSJones » 07 Dec 2006 05:51

The US will not give any technology to Pakistan concerning ABM. That doesn't mean they can't get it from China however. At any rate, we all know that stuff isn't 400% up and running and capable of hitting the target all of the time, right? That's what all the liberal cry babies have been saying about the US developed ABMs. Also please note that there is a window from the time of "concept development" and full scale deployment. But hey, don't let little ole me spoil yer fun. Celebrate while ye may for every action there is a reaction. The silence from Pakistan is ominous.

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Postby Prem » 07 Dec 2006 05:54

hnair wrote:US giving Patriots is troublesome, for more than any missiles, MKIs have to deal with them :( Post-Kargil, the conventional forces seems to be the only thing that keeps the idiots of PA in their barracks. And US has shown no inclination to think before approving AMRAAMs, conventional JDAMS etc.


Yes, but then, as Vijay said, Chinese will take a peek at the Patriot system.
This will also end the aura of strategic partnereship between 2 democracies. Uncle Jiang will win the round and get Patriot system on cheap as well as Indian following alongside Russia. Same goes for PRC to certain extent. For their own interests, they both will sit on their hands and offer moral support only. Chinese has recently made some noises about their Indian policy no longer under PLA control. The candidate for effection right now is India alone.
This is the beginning of new paradigm in global game. We are not bounded by SA circle anymore.Another player coming up is Japan. Dr. Singh is soon paying visit to Tokyo for comprehensive talk. Both need to co-ordinate on Asian leadership in this century, with Uncle's secret blessings .

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Postby Dileep » 07 Dec 2006 06:08

Pukes getting ATBM DOES NOT regain the strategic balance. Only MIRV can do that.

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Postby vina » 07 Dec 2006 06:15

Prem wrote:Yes, but then, as Vijay said, Chinese will take a peek at the Patriot system. This will also end the aura of strategic partnereship between 2 democracies. Uncle Jiang will win the round and get Patriot system on cheap as well as Indian following alongside Russia.


The US knows about the Paki-Chini technology swap-hookup-link ups quite well, very well infact, though they wont talk about it publicly for obvious Musharraf's H&D reasons.

Look up the case of the recent F-16 deal.. The conditionalities attached with respect to access are just simply unprecendented in history anywhere in the world.. I guess Unkil learnt it the hard way after the Chini got as the rumor is one F-16 to use as the base to reverse engineer into the Lavi based J-10. And also , the cruise missiles that Clinton fired at the mud huts of the Al-Keedas after the embassy bombings (talk about not recognizing clear danger signals, even after getting clobbered and blood getting spilt.. the Clinton and 'alfbright foreign counter terror policies were absolute disasters) , ended up in Chini land, xeroxed (is there a Chinese word for that) and landed up as a pale copy back in Puke land as the "Babur " ..

See, there is no free lunch. For the Pakis to get access to chinese weaponry, missiles and other support, they have to pay in kind..and that is passing up stuff like Tomahawks landing in their territory, F-16s and also allow a full "cavity search" of any american weaponry in the paki inventory the Chinis want a lookee at.

Unkil knows this very well. No way they will sell something like Patriot to the Pakis for these precise reasons. The Chinese will do anything, including passing a few nukes and material across , armtwist with even threats of ending relationship with Pakis if the pakis dont play ball .. Getting PAC-3 and a close lookee at that is simply too important to the Chinis if it lands in the hand of the pakis.

No way the US is going to sell anything

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Postby John Snow » 07 Dec 2006 06:17

TSJones wrote: Also please note that there is a window from the time of "concept development" and full scale deployment. But hey, don't let little ole me spoil yer fun. .


Pontification apart
also note US being dumb doesnt mean THEM dumb too :)

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Postby hnair » 07 Dec 2006 06:21

TSJones wrote:The US will not give any technology to Pakistan concerning ABM. That doesn't mean they can't get it from China however. At any rate, we all know that stuff isn't 400% up and running and capable of hitting the target all of the time, right? That's what all the liberal cry babies have been saying about the US developed ABMs. Also please note that there is a window from the time of "concept development" and full scale deployment. But hey, don't let little ole me spoil yer fun. Celebrate while ye may for every action there is a reaction. The silence from Pakistan is ominous.
`

I am not thinking of the shiny brass telescope type tech mounted atop boosters in remote Alaskan islands. I am taking about any of the Patriot series and if Pakis whine in SD circles that they want some parity...... That Amraam approval was certainly disconcerting.

Yes, the silence is ominous in the short term - not because of what they can do, but what they cant grasp or worse, what they can't control. About the time window, inspite of liberal assault, if those telescopes can be deployed, then the PAD can be deployed too (testing be damned).

But then we have been living next to a nuclear armed Mexico who actively pushes in armed janitors for long. So it is fiesta time :P

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Postby NRao » 07 Dec 2006 06:23

MIRV or not what matters is the 99.8% prob and interceptions at various heights. Then the calculus is only about number of batteries around a city.

On others providing TSP with a ABM too - it really does not help anyone, nor does it hurt India (unlike the sale of F-16s or Thunder (yeah, what is that?))

Outside of that the question remains - will the GoI export something of value to itself?

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Postby vina » 07 Dec 2006 06:37

kgoan wrote:I feel the whole "we're crazy enough to kill ourselves and you" is a con job. And it was exposed as such during Op Parakram.
...
....Yes generals, mullahs and RAPE's, are all the same lunatics in a sense. But the system they work in is still a pyramid. And its vital to understand that the whole Jihadi scenario works to keep specific birdari groups on the top of the pyramid. The ones who have, in the same General Aziz's evocative phrase, the Jihadis "by the scruff of their neck".

.... That, I think, is what makes the situation now so interesting - whether the current lots grip on the "scruff of their necks" is loosening because of the ABM and Musharraf and the current lots inability to protect them from India.

Lets see how it goes.


I agree that the Paki establishment and alo the Chinis (especially the Chinis) are at some level into "rational" decision making in the game theory /strategy sense and would respond rationally given the set of options available in a particular circumstance, in pursuit of their interests..

Everyone knows that the Chinis are behind power and carving out their hegemony in Asia, trying to project power on the global scene and all that, while for the "official" Pakiland it is somehow to grab Kashmir.. larger consequences be damned , even if they do manage to do that...

The sama, daana, bedh , dand thingy range of options (not necessarily in that order) will work for them (esp Chini.. daan and dand).. maybe pakis (more dand than anything else) .

When it comes to those millenarian bearded wierdos, it gets a little complicated.. It does make sense for the Paki establishment to use 'em critters to project an "irrational" facade (classic game theory stuff.. not let the opponent believe that you are rational and hence make rational choices and hence increase the range of your options).. Trouble is, they cannot be turned off and on like a tap, but are really loose cannons, that have a habit of backfiring badly and even shooting in your own direction..

The larger problem for India and the rest of the world is this... If you compromize mushy and by extension the Paki Army too much and he/they fall (s), who next ? If it is the bearded wierdos, then the opponent becomes distinctly irrational , with totally non acceptable aims and then conflict is the only option available.

The animal called democracy is extinct.. or actually never existing for any length of time in Pakistan.. The onlystable kind (despite BB, Nawaz Sharif and playboy Khan's protestations) that a democratic process would throw up is the ultra rabid rabble rousing mullah types (the paki equivalent of Muqtada al Sadr, or the Iranian Nutters , Hamas , Hizobollah types).. and this scenario is actually far more dangerous than Bearded Wierdos taking over by force.. A scenario where Bearded Wierdos come to power in Pukeland via the democratic process and the resultatnt legal sanction , credibility, legitimacy and acceptance seems to be the natural stable point in the paki social, religious and military scenario.. Any other option like Beards taking over by force would be still considered "illegitimate" in the wider society and subject to challenge..

I know it is common consensus to wish of democracy in Pukeland.. But I think we should be careful on what we wish for.. It could actually come true and hurt us badly..

A bottled up and defanged Mushy (and the Paki army illusions of flying the green flag in Delhi and getting control of kashmir going to dust ) dependant on support and sustance on unkil, with the Paki army directed clearly internally at keeping down the beards and maintaining stability within Pakistan and putting pakistan on a growth trajectory /reforming Paki society is the ideal solution in the medium term.. Democracy is a long term goal (laudable in itself, but not the near term goal given the realpolitik) .

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Postby Prem » 07 Dec 2006 06:49

Dileep wrote:Pukes getting ATBM DOES NOT regain the strategic balance. Only MIRV can do that.


Hi Dileep,

MIRV wont provide any advantage if faced with BPI. India will eventually progress to achieve BPI capabiity.
Further India can revoke NFU and has already shown the will to take few lobbed by Pukes. Balance cannot be restored , Baki Turkey is stuffed and baked by GOI slowly. Kaffirs will be feasting for long time.
Pakistan has one option, surrender and offer Gubo services to much
hated Yindoos.
Their well being and prosperity depend on winning Yindoo friendship. They better not waste Manmohan's time with usual shenanigans when and if he pay visit to Lahore in March.

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Postby Dileep » 07 Dec 2006 07:20

Prem, my point is, ANYTHING that unkil or lizard can give to pukes can't regain the so called balance.

The game has changed forever!

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 07 Dec 2006 07:59

U no... the other thing that struck me about this "demonstration" was its timing and sheer audacity. There was no real technical need to announce ahead of time that this was to be an ABM demonstration - they just had to say that 2 missiles were going to be tested. Sort-of like brother and sister of same phamily getting married (to different ppl unless it is in Bakistan) on same day. Efficient.

Also, given the "DRDO exposes" and the "nyookulear deal" and the "MTCR" pressures around, the timing was way too interesting to escape notice.

What this appears to me is the equivalent of Colonel Andreas in the movie "Force 10 from Navarone" silently watching while the young Americans shoot off their mouths, and demonstrate their superior fitness by bending this iron poker.

And then... sort-of absent-mindedly picking up the poker and straightening it out in one motion.

Fiction, of course, vs. reality in this case, but the point is made. The sheer audacity of the prior announcement is completely out of character for a defense R&D organization. So what was it?

My take:

OK, Saraswat, I hear u. Go ahead and show them a glimpse of what we really can do. No big deal, it's time anyway for them to see it


Which brings me to the question:

If THAT is something so "routine" that they can do it with a pre-announced demo, right in the faces of the nay-sayers, WHAT ELSE IS ALREADY IN THE REPERTOIRE?

I think Dilli, Mumbai all have ABM systems deployed and functional long since, hence the decision to do this casual demonstration.

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Postby TSJones » 07 Dec 2006 10:05


I think Dilli, Mumbai all have ABM systems deployed and functional long since, hence the decision to do this casual demonstration.


Uh, sure thing Cube. :roll:

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Postby hnair » 07 Dec 2006 10:22

You are back with a scoff!! I thought you were in a "Celebrate while ye may for every action there is a reaction. The silence from Al Qaeda is ominous" mood. Nice! On to bashing the goat shaped pinata 8)

Raju

Postby Raju » 07 Dec 2006 10:59

dilli, mumbai etc indeed have had S-300 coverage since some time now.

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Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 11:28

source?

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Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2006 11:45

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-10_Grumble

# Flag of India India has bought six S-300 batteries in August 1995 for $1 billion, probably the S-300PMU-2 version, believed to consist of 48 missiles per system. These will most likely be used in the short-range ballistic-missile defence (BMD) role against Pakistan's M-11 missiles.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/A_Giant ... e_999.html

Also Singh noted what he called "informed speculation over the years ... that India may already have deployed a few batteries of the Russian S-300 system as an interim arrangement."

Given the continuing warm ties between India and Russia, the huge high-tech weapons orders that the current Congress-UPA dominated government and the previous Baharataya Janata Party-led one have both given to Russia and the exceptional enthusiasm for Russian aerospace technology shown for so many years by long-time Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes, that "informed speculation" seems extremely likely.

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Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 11:59

It cites FAS.

FAS says this:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/ai ... 300pmu.htm

India
Since 1995 India has been negotiating with Russia regarding purchase of the S-300, in response to Pakistan's deployment of M-11 missiles from China. In 1995 Russian Defense Deputy Minister Kokoshin offered to sell S-300 missiles during his trip to India. Following this offer Indian officials started negotiations with the Russian manufacturers, and in August 1995 the Indian Defense Secretary Nambiar went to Russia to observe tests of the missiles near Moscow. The $1 billion purchase is said to include six S-300 systems, with each combat system consisting of 48 missiles. Reportedly in June 1996 27 S-300 missiles were delivered to India.


So were six systems ever procured? Also which variant? The PMU or the latest PMU2?

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Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 12:07

http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/presenta ... /frame.htm

Please look at the missile defence slides, leakage rate etc. Interesting.

www.subodhatal.com

Somebody invite him to BR.

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Postby Sumeet » 07 Dec 2006 12:09

Its mentioned here as well we have grumble. It says PMU-1 system.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Akash.html
Officials have said that the missile will also undergo user trials with the Army for integration with the S-300PMU-1 anti-tactical ballistic missile systems, of which the Army has purchased an unspecified number, as well as with AEW aircraft. Plans exist for a navalised version in VLS mode.

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Postby Sumeet » 07 Dec 2006 12:19

also,

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/BMD.html

Yet even the S-300VM has significant shortcomings. The ceiling of the S-300VM is around 30km against aircraft and 25km against ballistic missiles and while its range against aircraft may be great, its published range against ballistic missiles is only 40km. Moreover, reports circulating in India have indicated that the S-300VM has failed trials at the Pokhran test range.(21)


19. Jane's Land Based Air Defence, ( Surrey, Jane's Information Group, 1998 ), pp. 256-257
20. Ibid, pp. 133-134
21. Ibid p. 139

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Postby Sanjay M » 07 Dec 2006 12:19

hnair wrote:US giving Patriots is troublesome, for more than any missiles, MKIs have to deal with them :( Post-Kargil, the conventional forces seems to be the only thing that keeps the idiots of PA in their barracks. And US has shown no inclination to think before approving AMRAAMs, conventional JDAMS etc.


Dileep wrote:Pukes getting ATBM DOES NOT regain the strategic balance. Only MIRV can do that.


I for one think a return to ground forces as the real balancers of power, due to marginalization of air power by ATBMs, means that India regains a greater footing over Pak. After all, their major cities are all in quick marching distance of our ground forces, but the same cannot be said of our cities. We have a tremendous artillery advantage over them, not to mention obvious things like manpower.

I suppose one could argue that the unfavorable balance of ground forces for Pak means that they might be tempted to further depend on terrorism/insurgency as a means to tie our forces down on home soil, and thereby reduce the number of troops available for offensive operations. But they would only screw over the peace process they're depending upon for strategic respite.

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Postby negi » 07 Dec 2006 12:35

All semantics and technical developments aside IMHO the recent ABM test does not affect the military balance in our region (in case of China yes it does but not in case of suicidal TSP).

TSP perspective:

1.TSP is well aware of its limitations and realises they are in a no win situation in event of a conventional war with India.Hence they would accelerate their BM and Nuke procurement and painting programme.

2.In event of a war they would be the first ones to resort to NBC warfare and I bet they would throw their entire stock in one salvo (courtsey 'marenge to unhe bhi leke marenge ' mentality).

3.Hence in Indo-Pak perspective our ABM cap only would ensure that we would live to press the button in event of a Nuclear holocaust (for as I have said before in N world one who pulls the trigger first always wins)

Chicom perspective.

1.The lizard has too much to loose if at all she thinks of attacking India.We might be slightly out numbered by the sheer size of Chicoms conventional forces but we can compensate for the same by our BM's.

2.The ABM in this case is a major player .Going by the promises shown by the recent tests it is safe to assume we would have the best ABM capability in the region and hence the chances of Chicom resorting to a First Nuke strike would be minimal (I assume 'TSP ke saath humbistar hone ke bawajood unme thodi akal bachi hogi ').

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Postby Sumeet » 07 Dec 2006 12:43

china has PMU-2 & Algeria will get it soon.

for china check page 29 here.
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/Ch ... 202006.pdf

It looks like India has PMU-1 only.

Raju

Postby Raju » 07 Dec 2006 12:56

>> So were six systems ever procured? Also which variant? The PMU or the latest PMU2

What we have most likely had are the barebones PMU-1 which was later replaced with the PMU-3 or integrated with some local tech. It would be safe to assume that the profile might not exclusively be of a single-type since procurements are of an ongoing nature.

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Postby geeth » 07 Dec 2006 13:09

IMO, if we put a long range radar in Siachen Glacier (hide it behind some rock and put a telescopic pole to raise and lower the antenna to coceal from air attacks if necessary), a quater sweep should cover the whole of Pakiland and part of Iran. Guide the ABMs from the foothills of Himalayas. THAAD!

Does it sound weird?

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 07 Dec 2006 14:20

I think this subject merits extended discussion at the NSN thread or the Youm-e-Gulami Mubarak (YeGMP) thread. 8)

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Postby Arun_S » 07 Dec 2006 14:28

Cross posting from tech thread:
Arun_S wrote:
rakall wrote:Now that we have taken the first step to BMD, among other things (like ATV, IAC) there are two key things that we need to really make the pukes pee (& northern neighbours as well) -- we need to urgently demonstrate MIRV tech.
It will come sooner than later. There is another surprise up Yindu's sleeve for the lizard, will email you later.

How about Taiwan developing indigenous ABM in 3 months flat with bright Taiwanese red and blue paint on it? I recall from WOP there was an experiment that Mrs Gandhi authorized called "Tickling the Dragons tail" (Later they ate the dragon to answer Chacha Lizard). I am talking of ABM and nu-clear convergence. That will permanently break Chinese Atoot-Ang. Just and fair retribution.

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Postby NRao » 07 Dec 2006 16:54

negi wrote:All semantics and technical developments aside IMHO the recent ABM test does not affect the military balance in our region (in case of China yes it does but not in case of suicidal TSP).

TSP perspective:

1................................

Chicom perspective.

1..............................


What IF:

1) Chicom uses TSP, or
2) Chicom + TSP?

In the nuke field I do not think India can think in terms of either one. It has to be both together.

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Postby TSJones » 07 Dec 2006 19:10


My take:

Quote:
OK, Saraswat, I hear u. Go ahead and show them a glimpse of what we really can do. No big deal, it's time anyway for them to see it


Which brings me to the question:

If THAT is something so "routine" that they can do it with a pre-announced demo, right in the faces of the nay-sayers, WHAT ELSE IS ALREADY IN THE REPERTOIRE?

I think Dilli, Mumbai all have ABM systems deployed and functional long since, hence the decision to do this casual demonstration.


A purchased s-300 system was not implied. An indigenous system was implied. I don't doubt for a second that India has access to russian gear and it is deployed. That goes w/o saying. But that wasn't implied in the above message. An indigenous system was.

Raju

Postby Raju » 07 Dec 2006 19:20

I don't doubt for a second that India has access to russian gear and it is deployed. That goes w/o saying. But that wasn't implied in the above message. An indigenous system was.


The Russian systems were 'suitably 'indi'genised' ! :lol:

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Postby kgoan » 07 Dec 2006 19:24

TSJ:

FWIW, Pakland thinks the US has given the Israelis the go-ahead to pass us stuff - *your* stuff.

Good luck trying to convince them otherwise. See, they remember the 60's when yer loudly proclaimed "no more toys for Pakees" and then got the Shah to hand them your goodies.

Just another one of them little blowback thingies. :)

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Postby Vijay J » 07 Dec 2006 19:56

Forget about what anyone will give them later.

What about here and now? where is Pakistani deterrence today? Is there any left that Musharraf can parade about? If he can't walk the walk in public he is history.

Then what is preventing a Cold Start?

Al Qaida is a joint Pakistani American sock puppet, so their silence is understandable. Al Qaida sends messages when the Americans want the Pakistanis to pretend to threaten America. The real problem is when Al Qaida doesn't send a message when America tells Pakistan to organise a dog and pony show. That means the chain of communication is broken.

The problem is the Pakistani silence. What does it really mean?

What next? Musharraf calls Crocker to take a flight to go see the AMRAAM demonstration at Bahawalpur? Will Crocker take the flight?

What will Crocker do when Gen. So and So says he can't join them because he has to attend to some business in Lahore and will be taking an alternative flight instead?

What will be Crocker's reaction? Will he climb aboard the airplane with Musharraf?

Does he have it in him? to walk into that terrible moment knowing full what it means?

As kgoan says if Pakistanis think that the US winked to India and transferred ABM to India via Israel, they will target the US.

There will be no bomb blasts in India, at least none orchestrated by Pakistan.

The choice is stark, support Musharraf or risk having your musharraf kicked by the Pakistanis.

You are going to be the reaction to our action.

And while we are on the topic of actions and reactions.

You sell them patriots and you can forget about us buying them. What has been gained here? a few millions that you will have to provide them in FMS credits? instead of possibly billions of dollars in real money from a deal with India?

You give them patriots and then tomorrow China field patriot clones.

Action and reaction, that is a cyclical thing.

Do you still need more time to understand what the Pakistanis are (not) saying?

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Postby Vijay J » 07 Dec 2006 20:23

What exactly about the Prithvi Missile is still in Concept development phase?

There are operational prithvi missile batteries.

We change the second stage and the profile of the missile is identical.

Why will there be any time delay?

A time delay matters when you have to deploy 100s of missile batteries.

If you have to replace a smaller number and given that the Pakistanis only have a few hundred missiles of which they can launch maybe one or two before we retaliate, our time to deployment is much shorter than some might think.

Its like Strafor said, the model for ABM is very different in India than it is in the US.

Look at it like this, when Pakistani Jernail launches Shaheen, there is 50% chance that it falls back on his head, now with the PADE there is an even bigger chance.

Who will want to fire any missiles in that way?

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Postby Vijay J » 07 Dec 2006 21:07

A strategic criss cross and a blunder.

The South Asia hyphen equal-equal brigade wanted to downplay India's PADE test so they made it look like India has imported the technology from Israel.

Thanks to people South Asia inspired FDI products like Times of Islamabad Expert Rajat Pandit, and Stinker Dupatta of So-called Indian Express Newspaper, Pakistanis are now thinking that if Israel sold this to India, it must have only been with USA's approval.

So now USA is getting blamed for trying to destroy Pakistan's nuclear bomb by arming India.

NSN should file report of HE Brown Pants reactions.

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Postby ldev » 07 Dec 2006 21:30

Cross posting from the military forum:

Advanced missile system within 4 years

[quote]Asked about high velocity missiles hitting the country, Saraswat said from eastern and north-eastern side of the country very high velocity missiles can attack the country.

“However, we have the systems in place to track and intercepts the targets now.
For every target (missile) we need four missiles. Each missile would cost Rs 6 crore. Now country is in a position to produce 200 missiles in a year,â€

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Postby John Snow » 07 Dec 2006 23:01

For once I am genuinely delighted that Uncle gets blame from Munna.

Must dust of my VHS copy of 'Trading Places' *ing Dan Akyrod and Eddie Murphy

vsudhir
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Postby vsudhir » 07 Dec 2006 23:37

The chinis are moving to sabotage whatever they can to degrade India's capabilities. Their first target : the J18 agreement.

China blasts Indo-US civilian nuke deal

This mere days after Hu's India visit where he's supposed to have quietly endorsed India's quest to have the NSG change its rules. What changed between then and now? The ABM test is one prime candidate.

Vijay J
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Postby Vijay J » 08 Dec 2006 00:37

Fantastic, a friend of the Asia Pacific Foundation is trying to make it look like China is unhappy with the India-US news deal. I guess the bylines goes where the FDI tells it to.

There you have it, the power the South Asia fanatics, dying to prove that their useless hyphenation ideas are still valid.

I was unusually harsh on the Pioneer for still seeking FDI after all these years but only because these rest of these FDI products are beyond all hope.

His Majesty of China has not spoken unless he speaks himself.

He knows we mean him no harm.

Dr. Saraswat has said, "Shaheen, Ghauri are not a threat" he did not say, "Dong Feng blows the wrong way."

If his majesty of china is upset, he will sent HQ-9 to Pakistan and then Musharraf will have big press release that says Pakistan has indigenously developed Al-Saif ATBM system. Doctor Mubarakmand will go to Iran and then Iran will have indigenously develop it too and so will Hezbollah, wither Israel wither Iraq, whither Middle East. If North Korea also indiginously makes the Dong Dong missile, whither South Korea, wither Japan?

Aa-aa-aah... remember Saudi already has Patriots so why can't Iran have something too. Japan has SM3 won't Outstanding Leader want it too?

Picklu
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Postby Picklu » 08 Dec 2006 01:20

Dileep wrote:Prem, my point is, ANYTHING that unkil or lizard can give to pukes can't regain the so called balance.

The game has changed forever!

Unless they mate their nuke with chini bababoor. And unkil allows unhindered milgrade GPS access.
Equal-eqalitis demands MAD and to ensure MAD TSP has to get new offensive weapon that is not affected by ABM.


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