Pakistan forces watch -arms sales, operations, doctrine, etc

Johann
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Pakistan forces watch -arms sales, operations, doctrine, etc

Postby Johann » 03 Feb 2007 02:56

I had wanted to post an updated list of major US arms sales to Pakistan since 2001, and was wondering where to put it.

There is a Pakistan news thread on the other forum, but I thought it might be good to have a long-term thread that specifically for collecting reporting on the PA/PAF/PN and paramilitary formations, and for related discussions on *military* capabilities, disposition, etc.

It might also be a good idea to do the same thing for the PLA

_____________________________________________________________

PA
-26 x Bell 412EP utility helicopters [$230m US financed lease. Deliveries JUN 2004-05. Textron.]
-3330 x Falcon II infantry & vehicle tactical radio systems [$68m US financed sale, FEB 2005. Harris]
- spare parts for Mi-17 medium lift helicopters [$5.2m, General Dynamics, SEP 2006]
- 20 x AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters [excess defence articles, refurbished by LSI. 8 x delivered JAN 2007]

INTERIOR MINISTRY
- 10 x Bell Huey II utility helicopters [grant aid from State Dept. for Afghan border surveillance]

PAF
- 12 x F-16C Block 52 + 6 x F-16D Block 52 fighter aircraft [$144m, DEC 2006, Lockheed-Martin]
- 24 x F-16A + 10 x F-16B Block 15 MLU kits [$161.3m , DEC 2006, Lockheed-Martin]
- 54 x AN/APG-68 (V) 9 Radar Systems [$49m, NOV 2006, Northtrop-Grumman ]
- 6 x C-130E transport aircraft [$64m US financed sale, SEP 2004. Lockheed-Martin.]
- 6 x AN/TPS-77 mobile air surveillance radars [$89m US financed sale, OCT 2005. Lockheed-Martin]
- 500 x AIM-120C-5 air-to-air missiles [$269.6m, Raytheon, NOV 2006]
- upgrades for 310 AIM-9M air-to-air missiles to AIM-9M-8/9s [$5.8m US financed sale, DEC 2006. Raytheon]
- 300 x AIM-9M Sidewinder within-visual-range air-to-air missiles [$29.4m US financed sale, OCT 2005. Raytheon]
- 2 x F-16A Falcon fighter aircraft [Excess Defense Articles grant delivered JAN 2006]
-19 x T-37B intermediate jet trainers [Excess Defense Articles grant, 2003?]


PN
- depot maintenance for 2 x P-3Cs in Pakistan [$11m, JAN 2005. Lockheed-Martin]
- 8 x P-3C maritime surveillance aircraft [Excess Defense Articles grant.]
depot maintenance for 7 x gifted P-3Cs [$20.9m US financed sale, MAR 2006. Lockheed-Martin]
- training program for P-3C air & ground crews [$30.3m US financed sale. NOV 2005. LSI/DynCorp]
- addition to LM contract [$186.5m modification to existing LM contract]
-50 [40 air-launched + 10 surface launched] x Harpoon Tactical Block II anti-ship missiles [$61.7m US financed sale, NOV 2005. McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing]
- Harpoon Ship Command Launch Control Systems upgrades [$6.1m, Boeing, OCT 2006]
- 4 X Phalanx CIWS [$47.2m, Raytheon, SEP 2006]

All sourced from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (www.dsca.mil) and http://www.pentagon.mil/Contracts/
Last edited by Johann on 03 Feb 2007 03:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US Arms Sales to Pakistan, Post 2001

Postby Sumeet » 03 Feb 2007 03:06

Johann wrote:I had wanted to post an updated list of major US arms sales to Pakistan since 2001, and was wondering where to put it.


Why just US it should be sales from all countries to pakistan. Anyways thanks for starting this one. Also, can we include sales "notifications" as well or not ?

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Postby Johann » 03 Feb 2007 03:17

del
Last edited by Johann on 03 Feb 2007 03:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby bala » 03 Feb 2007 03:17

Here is one more recent gift to the Pukes by the US.

Cobra copters for Pakistan

U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker handed over the Cobra helicopter to Pakistan at a function in Rawalpindi on Friday. With him were Pakistan Secretary of Defence Tariq Waseem Ghazi and Maj. Gen. Javed Aslam, Commander of Aviation Assets in the Pakistani Army. The gunships are the first lot of a total 40 Cobras that the U.S. is gifting to Pakistan as part of the five-year security assistance programme that began in 2003.

The envoy said the U.S. would also soon deliver the F-16 aircraft that it has sold to Pakistan.

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Postby Johann » 03 Feb 2007 03:20

Summeet,

- I didnt name the thread - one of the admins must have done it - my original title was 'Pakistan forces watch', which had a broader intent. I am changing it back, and requesting that the thread title be allowed to stay

- The notifications are basically are just Pakistani wishlists which the Americans have acknowledged.

That's less than half-way in the negotiations process.

What the Pakistanis end up getting is usually significantly less. For example notification to Congress involved 36 F-16s - they got 18; congressional notification spoke of up to 60 MLU kits - they got 24.

It is much more reliable to look at contracts and grants.

Bala,

Its already included in the list - see under PA

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Postby Philip » 03 Feb 2007 14:35

God thread.We can start with the latest news of the US plan to equip pak with P_3 Orions with the Hawkeye AWACS package,scuttling the Swedish offer.

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Postby bala » 03 Feb 2007 23:52

Johann,
Small quibble. You have 20 listed, the article says 40 cobra.

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Postby Johann » 04 Feb 2007 00:50

Bala,

It is my understanding that while 40 helicopters were taken out of mothballs, only 20 are being refurbished, to be handed over to the PA as flying machines. The other 20 have been turned in to spares.

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Postby Johann » 04 Feb 2007 01:03

The following are Pakistani wishlists the USG have notified Congress of, but have not been turned in to contracts;

6 x L-88 Aerostat surveillance radars ($155m, Lockheed-Martin. Congressional notification in JUL 2002)

115 x M109A Paladin 155mm self-propelled howitzers ($56m, United Defense Sale. Congressional notification in DEC 2005).

14 x Falcon-Up/STAR upgrades + 14 x F100-PW-220E engine overhauls + ‘de-modification’ of 26 x aircraft ($151m Congressional notification in JUN 2006)

240 x LAU-129/A Launchers; [all Air Weaponry $650m proposed sale. Congressional notification in JUN 2006]
500 x JDAM Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
1,600 x Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
800 x MK-82 500lbs and MK-84 2,000lbs bombs;
700 x BLU-109 2,000lbs penetrating bombs w/ FMU-143 Fuze.

3,700 x Harris HF manpack and vehicle radios ($160m, NOV 2006)

3 x (refurbished) P-3 Orions w/ Hawkeye 2000 AEW suites ($855m, DEC 2006)
3,200 x TOW-II missiles ($185m, DEC 2006)

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Postby Lalmohan » 04 Feb 2007 02:25

the number of bombs strikes me as being quite low... whilst the number of self prop howitzers seems incredibly high!

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Postby JCage » 04 Feb 2007 09:18

Lalmohan wrote:the number of bombs strikes me as being quite low... whilst the number of self prop howitzers seems incredibly high!


:shock: :-? :roll:

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Postby shiv » 04 Feb 2007 09:29

Lalmohan wrote:the number of bombs strikes me as being quite low... whilst the number of self prop howitzers seems incredibly high!


That is a list of items NOT given to Pakstan (yet). Given the context of the report the meaning of your post becomes a mystery.

Do you mean that not enough bombs have been denied, or are you implying that many may not have been denied? Note that some are JDAMs

Do you mean that Pakistan has been denied too many Howitzers?

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Feb 2007 11:58

GBU are PGM bombs and a wish list of around ~2000 PGM devices is quite large. To give you an idea India was only a able to build up a inventory of around 1000 LGB post Kargill with lot of effort. (Dont know current status!)

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Postby chiragAS » 04 Feb 2007 12:22


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Postby Rien » 06 Feb 2007 14:23

Raj Malhotra wrote:GBU are PGM bombs and a wish list of around ~2000 PGM devices is quite large. To give you an idea India was only a able to build up a inventory of around 1000 LGB post Kargill with lot of effort. (Dont know current status!)


Then does this imply that the Pakistanis believe in an offensive air war? Why would you need that many bombs if fighting a purely defensively. But if you are trying to take out air bases you might need that many.

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Postby Sri K » 07 Feb 2007 05:10

Johann wrote:What the Pakistanis end up getting is usually significantly less. For example notification to Congress involved 36 F-16s - they got 18; congressional notification spoke of up to 60 MLU kits - they got 24.

Did the Congress reduce the numbers, or did the Pakistanis do that, maybe because they realized they would have to cough up the money?

Also, $144M for 18 F-16s works out to $8M only by my madrassa math. Isn't that price too low for a brand new fighter? I also noticed 6 Hercs for $64M, but that sale is described as "US financed," so they are presumably subsidized by US taxpayers. Is something similar going on with the F-16s?

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 05:45

Pakistan has to fit what it wants within the amount that Congress has set aside for 'Foreign Military Financing' to Pakistan (currently at $300m/year until 2009), or its got to find the money elsewhere.

The $144m is basically a downpayment on those 18 fighters - the total cost will come to ~$1.5b.

The Pakistanis seem to have preferred to spend the money on AAMs and upgrades for their existing F-16s.

The Pakistanis will have to either raise the bulk of the remaining cost from the Gulf, or be resigned to a very slow delivery rate.

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Postby Sri K » 07 Feb 2007 08:51

Johann wrote:Pakistan has to fit what it wants within the amount that Congress has set aside for 'Foreign Military Financing' to Pakistan (currently at $300m/year until 2009), or its got to find the money elsewhere.

The $144m is basically a downpayment on those 18 fighters - the total cost will come to ~$1.5b.

The Pakistanis seem to have preferred to spend the money on AAMs and upgrades for their existing F-16s.

The Pakistanis will have to either raise the bulk of the remaining cost from the Gulf, or be resigned to a very slow delivery rate.


Thanks for the clarification, Johann. Now it makes sense. What still does not make sense is how Pakistan was cleared for advanced stuff like the AMRAAM, JDAM, the latest model avionics on the F-16s, etc., considering that these toys are very much likely to end up in Beijing's hand. :-o

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 12:31

Sri K,

My understanding is that the Pakistanis have been forced to agree to some embarassing inventory monitoring.

That will be all well and good until the day that the break comes, and the US military attaches are busy trying to organise the embassy rooftop evacuation.

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 13:15

http://www.dawn.com/2007/02/01/top12.htm

FAISALABAD, Jan 31: A Pakistan Air Force Mirage aircraft crashed in Katcha Dhappra fields, near Machiwal, in Jhang district on Wednesday. Reports said the aircraft took off from the Rafiqui airbase and was on a training flight. The pilot managed to eject from the plane and landed safely. Police reached the spot and cordoned off the area.

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 13:29

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?opti ... 2&Itemid=2

Commander Turkish air force arrives on 4-day official visit
Written by pub
Monday, 22 January 2007
ISLAMABAD, Jan 22 (APP): Commander Turkish Air Force General Faruk Comert along with his wife and two members delegation arrived here on Monday on four days official visit. He is visiting on the invitation of Pakistan Air force.
The Turkish delegation was received by Air Vice Marshal Waseem ud Din, Air Officer Commanding, Air Defence Command at Islamabad International Airport.


During the visit, General Faruk Comert will call on acting President Muhammadmian Somroo, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force.

He will also visit an Operational PAF Base and Pakistan AeronauticalComplex, Kamra.


The state owned Turkish TAI probably wants the contract to install the MLU upgrades on the PAF's in-service F-16s

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 13:34

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/ ... rcraft.php

The Associated PressPublished: January 18, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: Pakistan's navy has received the first of eight American-made long-range maritime surveillance aircraft from the United States, an official announced Thursday.

Washington had agreed two years ago to sell the P3-C Orions to its key ally. On Thursday, Mohammed Haroon, deputy chief of Pakistan's navy, said they had received first of the promised aircraft.

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 13:52

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=41520
liquor seized: The Pakistan Navy (PN) foiled an attempt to smuggle huge quantity of liquor 135 nautical miles southwest of Gawadar and arrested five persons.

The staff of Pakistan Navy Ship Babur, while conducting a maritime security operation, spotted a boat named Al-Khalil, which was carrying 1,600 cartons containing 20,000 bottles of various foreign brands of liquor.

The liquor bottles were being carried from Fujairah and were to be offloaded at Gawadar.


Fujairah is one of th main smuggling centres in the UAE. Note the distance from the Pakistani coast that the Babar made the interception.

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.as ... ueID=29315
THE US Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Michael G Mullen presented Pakistani Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir with the Legion of Merit medal in recognition of his efforts in promoting bilateral co-operation in regional maritime and security affairs.

These efforts allowed US and coalition vessels to successfully conduct maritime security operations within the Bahrain-headquartered US Fifth Fleet's area of operation.

The award ceremony was held in Washington DC, US.

Pakistan became the first regional country to lead one of three coalition maritime task forces when it commanded Bahrain-based Command Task Force (CTF) 150, from April to August last year.

As members of this task force, Pakistani navy ships operate as part of CTF-150 in the Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, the Arabian Sea, Red Sea and parts of the Indian Ocean.

Coalition forces conduct maritime security operations under international maritime conventions to ensure security and safety in international waters so that all commercial shipping can operate freely while transiting the region.

CTF 150, established near the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom, is comprised of naval ships from numerous other coalition nations, including Germany, France, the UK and the US.

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 13:57

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?opti ... 3&Itemid=2

KARACHI. Jan 13 (APP)- Pakistan needs to invest heavily in the maritime capacity building to appropriately safeguard and project our maritime interests at the global level.

This was stated by the Minister for Defence, Rao Sikandar Iqbal, here on Saturday.

He was speaking as chief guest at the inauguration ceremony of the National Center of Maritime Policy Research (NCMPR).

...He pointed out that Pakistan has a coast line of 990 kms and an Exclusive Economic Zone of 240,000 sq kms. It is occupying a strategic position across the main Indian Ocean trade routes in close proximity to the Gulf on the Indian Ocean Rim at a place where the South West, Central and South Asian regions merge.

The Minister said that it provides a direct land route from Central Asia to warm water of Arabian Sea to facilitate communications and promote trade and cooperation in the region.

This offers tremendous potential for future economic growth. Pakistan needs to invest heavily in maritime capacity building to appropriately safeguard and project our maritime interests at global level. This investment will boost national economy, generate employment and help alleviate poverty, he added.

...He said that with gradual shrinking of land resources , the oceans, seas, islands and coastal areas are gaining importance for food security and for sustaining economic prosperity of mankind.

This calls for the recognition of immense economic, political and environmental value of the oceans and coastal areas; including shipping and related industries, offshore energy resources, fisheries and sea borne minerals.

...The rapid growth of emerging economies such as China and Pakistan offers exciting opportunities for shipping and related activities.

Unfortunately we as a nation have neither played any major role in global markets, port operations and merchant shipping, nor do we significantly feature in the international logistic chains.

Similarly, we are far behind in marine technology to explore the enormous wealth of ocean resources lying untapped in our waters. If we do not move fast to join the maritime race we will be left far behind to only repent.

We must, therefore endeavour to establish institutions to produce manpower in maritime sector in ship building, modern merchant and fishing fleets, ports management, international maritime law and global maritime trade.

The Naval Chief expected NCMPR to focus on these areas to provide direction and guidelines to develop maritime sector.

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 14:02

Suicide bomber kills 2 Pakistani troops
2007/2


By ISHTIAQ MAHSUD, Associated Press Writer 27 minutes ago

DERA ISMAIL KHAN, Pakistan - A suspected Islamic militant rammed his explosive-laden car into a Pakistan army convoy in the country‘s northwest on Saturday, killing two soldiers and wounding six others, police said.

Mohammed Khan, a senior police official in the area, said that security forces had cordoned off the area, and that the dead and wounded soldiers had been transported to a nearby military hospital.

[url=http://www.siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications247307&Category=publications&Subcategory=0]Mujahideen in Waziristan Video of Physical and Arms Training and Combating the “Faithless Pakistani Armyâ€
Last edited by Johann on 07 Feb 2007 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby krishnan » 07 Feb 2007 14:04

Dont try to hijack this thread by posting non related stuff

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 14:34

Krishnan - I am the thread originator.

Please read the thread title and the first post.

This thread is intended for news and discussion regarding PA/PAF/PN/paramilitary equipment acquisition and upgrades, losses, training, operations, exercises, doctrine, military-to-military foreign relationships, appointments, etc.

Everything posted here has been relevant to that.

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Postby JE Menon » 07 Feb 2007 16:36

>>Mujahideen have seen the collapse of the Russian Red Square. Now they will see the collapse of the American White House

Clearly ISI ex-Afghan desk language.

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Postby Anoop » 07 Feb 2007 18:36

Johann wrote: That will be all well and good until the day that the break comes, and the US military attaches are busy trying to organise the embassy rooftop evacuation.


Johann, do you really see this as a fair probability? I think there are too many entrenched interests on both sides for this to happen. It will be interesting to compare (in a separate thread) the evolution of the Iranian revolution and the current state in Pakistan.

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Postby Lalmohan » 07 Feb 2007 20:24

shiv wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:the number of bombs strikes me as being quite low... whilst the number of self prop howitzers seems incredibly high!


That is a list of items NOT given to Pakstan (yet). Given the context of the report the meaning of your post becomes a mystery.

Do you mean that not enough bombs have been denied, or are you implying that many may not have been denied? Note that some are JDAMs

Do you mean that Pakistan has been denied too many Howitzers?


no, i have assumed that these are requests from pakistan to the americans, as in "allah ke naam pe 400 LGB de dey baba..."

400 LGBs does not in my simple understanding amount to all that many effective combat missions (not enough to halt an Indian offensive), on the other hand 155 SPH's (fully supported and deployed) IS a formidable field force that could seriously impede an Indian thrust or major formation...

i am sure the americans will play the usual game of "300 LGB's? Why you want 200 LGB's? Look, look he wants 100 LGB's!" and then give 50

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2007 20:45

no, i have assumed that these are requests from pakistan to the americans, as in "allah ke naam pe 400 LGB de dey baba..."


assumptions.. :roll:

400 LGBs does not in my simple understanding amount to all that many effective combat missions (not enough to halt an Indian offensive), on the other hand 155 SPH's (fully supported and deployed) IS a formidable field force that could seriously impede an Indian thrust or major formation...


:roll:
And what of all those other GBU's etc?

Are all these PGMs meant for use against field formations or the IAF?

am sure the americans will play the usual game of "300 LGB's? Why you want 200 LGB's? Look, look he wants 100 LGB's!" and then give 50


..so we have to trust unkil to do the Right Thing (tm), right?

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Postby Lalmohan » 07 Feb 2007 20:58

we cannot trust unkil one inch when it comes to the pakistanis - of that i am sure, so the worst case assumptions must be made. i think that its a rather large leap from my statement to your assumption

the numbers struck me as being incongruous, thats all. i would have asked for more LGB's and fewer SPH's. unless ofcourse we are witnessing the primacy of the PA in demand definition?

and unlike you jcage-saar, i am no expert, which is why i raised the issue. and unlike shiv-saar i am no piskologist, which is why i don't have complex hidden meanings to my simple assumptions and questions. i don't think that it really deserves a :roll: rather, some proper arguementation on the why's and wherefores. i consider BRF to be a major source of (moderate) enlightenment, and i would like it to remain that way.

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2007 21:11

Lalmohan wrote:we cannot trust unkil one inch when it comes to the pakistanis - of that i am sure, so the worst case assumptions must be made. i think that its a rather large leap from my statement to your assumption


so if you make the worst case assumption, how is it that you are missing the wood for the trees! the PGM loadout the Paks have asked is way disproportionate to their needs.

the numbers struck me as being incongruous, thats all. i would have asked for more LGB's and fewer SPH's. unless ofcourse we are witnessing the primacy of the PA in demand definition?


Please reread what was posted. its not just LGBs but JDAMs and other PGMs.

and unlike you jcage-saar, i am no expert, which is why i raised the issue. and unlike shiv-saar i am no piskologist, which is why i don't have complex hidden meanings to my simple assumptions and questions. i don't think that it really deserves a :roll: rather, some proper arguementation on the why's and wherefores. i consider BRF to be a major source of (moderate) enlightenment, and i would like it to remain that way.


look i dont like being sarcastic, but despite repeated posts you have failed to look at the obvious..hence just consider it a poke, no deep analysis of your nefarious intentions or any such thing. And I am no expert either, but very much on the cynical side when it comes to relying on things going ok etc.

Unfortunately, your arguement relies on the US doing the right thing and not giving baksheesh to the Pakis- this is a dangerous premise (for us) to cozen ourselves with.

Since they released 500 AMRAAMs for some 50 odd planes..a factor of 10!

So hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

That huge PGM loadout means that the IAF must wrest air superiority as soon as possible, otherwise, constant PGM attacks on the TBA/ OCA against tac IAF bases can put the MiG-21s at risk- they dont have IFR to run deep inside India and will be forward based. Same goes for the non upgraded MiG-27s.

Lets look at the list again.

500 x JDAM Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;


Self evident..

1,600 x Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;


1600 Paveway II/IIIs

800 x MK-82 500lbs and MK-84 2,000lbs bombs;


Dumb bombs which will be used with the JDAM kits above

700 x BLU-109 2,000lbs penetrating bombs w/ FMU-143 Fuze.


Penetration bombs, which can be used with the APG-68V(9)'s SAR/ CCIP or combined with the JDAM guidance kit above.

So worst case- 2100 PGMs + 1000 dumb bombs (of which a significant bunch are penetrators)
..

So you see this is a threat. It will be met, but is a threat nonetheless.

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Postby Lalmohan » 07 Feb 2007 21:38

thank you, that was helpful, and enlightening and certainly a worst case scenario to think about. and your poke is accepted in good humour.

as for woods and trees, works both ways my friend! :wink:

johann and singha (and others) have previously done a fairly good job of sorting the wheat from the chaff regarding what has been asked for by the pakistanis and what has been delivered. therefore there is some credence to the 300 --> 200 --> 100 quip; although it cannot be assumed to come to pass.

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2007 21:58

thank you, that was helpful, and enlightening and certainly a worst case scenario to think about. and your poke is accepted in good humour.


Thanks, early morning response w/o coffee made me more grouchy than i shud have been..apologies

johann and singha (and others) have previously done a fairly good job of sorting the wheat from the chaff regarding what has been asked for by the pakistanis and what has been delivered. therefore there is some credence to the 300 --> 200 --> 100 quip; although it cannot be assumed to come to pass.


the other side of the story is that when pakis ask for complete systems which are expensive and cant come out of the 300 Mln$/yr baksheesh, they've been rebuffed...

So it may come now, or even later..
Last edited by JCage on 07 Feb 2007 22:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2007 22:08

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/jdam.htm

JDAM cost only 18 K in 1997
http://www.afa.org/magazine/May2003/0503watch.asp

JDAM - 21 K each

Thats 10.5 Million for 500 JDAMs

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/ ... 54,00.html

29, say 30 K Pounds ...round 60 K dollars for a Paveway II
49, say 50 K Pounds ...round 100 K dollars for a Paveway III

Say Paks go for the first..126 Million $

So lets add another 4 to round it off...130 Million for the Paveway II's

11 for the JDAMs

So 150 Million for the entire PGM/ dumb bomb package..

Mind you, I am inflating costs somewhat..

Thats half of the 300 Million / Yr.

Or, it can be split up over a few years even..

Or pays out of its own pocket.

I agree that things can go wrong, and its likely that they'll receive a pared down package...

But still, you get the idea that they can finance it over several years ..

From the Indian POV, the good thing is the Democrat smackdown on Pak..

That means the 300 Million a year could be in danger.

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Postby Sri K » 07 Feb 2007 22:30

Johann wrote:Sri K,

My understanding is that the Pakistanis have been forced to agree to some embarassing inventory monitoring.

That will be all well and good until the day that the break comes, and the US military attaches are busy trying to organise the embassy rooftop evacuation.

Yeah well, that day may never come. In the meanwhile, Chinese reverse engineers will be busy for a decade with all the new toys the Packees are getting. :-)

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Postby Sri K » 07 Feb 2007 22:33

Anoop wrote:
Johann wrote: That will be all well and good until the day that the break comes, and the US military attaches are busy trying to organise the embassy rooftop evacuation.


Johann, do you really see this as a fair probability? I think there are too many entrenched interests on both sides for this to happen. It will be interesting to compare (in a separate thread) the evolution of the Iranian revolution and the current state in Pakistan.

I had a discussion with Johann about this very topic a few months ago. FWIW, I don't think it is likely, but Johann thinks it will transpire, eventually (may his mouth be filled with clarified butter and sugar).

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Postby Johann » 07 Feb 2007 23:07

Anoop, Sri,

When it comes it will not be from below like Iran, but from the top, like Sudan, intended to pre-empt anyone from challenging their legitimacy. The PA's power doesnt just come from patronage or force. Back in the 1960s the PA realised it could sustain its power only if the majority in (West Bangladesh) saw them as protectors of Islam and Pakistani unity. I cant say when exactly, but the point will come when the PA will be *compelled* by self-interest to be *seen* to stand up for Muslims against the bombing, the kidnapping etc of innocent Muslims, and the undermining of Pakistan by the Jewish-Crusader alliance in order to retain that legitimacy. Alliance with the US is only a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Anyway I would prefer to keep this thread focussed at the military level. The Pak thread on the strat forum is really the one for looking at civil-military relations in Pakistan, durability of strategic relationships, etc.

So meanwhile;

The PAF's *second* Mirage from PAF Rafiqui in a week to crash(see above)

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?opti ... 9&Itemid=2

[quote]ISLAMABAD, Feb 7 (APP): A Mirage fighter aircraft of Pakistan Airforce on Wednesday crashed near Jhang, pilot ejected safely.
“Pakistan Airforce informs with regret that a Mirage fighter aircraft of PAF crashed near Jhang while on a routine operation training mission,â€

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Postby Johann » 09 Feb 2007 05:46

From www.uvonline.com

Athena Technologies selected to provide guidance and navitation to EMT's Luna UAV: UAV Conducting Surveillance in Kosovo, Macedonia, Afghanistan and Pakistan

February 6, 2007

...LUNA is an all-weather, lightweight, easy to operate UAV used for real-time surveillance, reconnaissance and target location at ranges exceeding 80 km and with an endurance of 4 hours. The UAV has been in service with the German Army since March 2000 and is successfully performing reconnaissance missions in Kosovo, Macedonia and Afghanistan. Early in 2006, the Pakistan Army acquired LUNA UAVs for monitoring the Pakistan borders.

...About EMT
EMT is a certified aviation company and supplier of air vehicles and aviation equipment. Founded in 1978, EMT develops, manufactures and supports innovative products for the Armed Forces. EMT’s product range includes Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and the complete product line for aerial target presentation. EMT’s growing family of drones covers the range of micro drones, mini drones and larger tactical drones. Additional information is available at www.emt-penzberg.de.


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