Pakistan forces watch -arms sales, operations, doctrine, etc

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 May 2007 05:20

1. F-16 has many things going for it from PAF's view: (a) Familiarity with the older systems (b) Simpler logistics (c) Easy integration with advanced US weaponry (d) Backdoor supply lines through Arab countries (e) US mil aid usually comes with Buy-American clause. No other system you asked about can fulfill all five considerations.

2. Pakistani forces are quite Army-centric, redardless of other factors the Army must get its due. However Pakistani Armoured Corps today is a comparatively a shadow of itself from the 1960s. In that manner they are not "building", but rather preventing erosion.

3. Pakistani Navy is a scavenging/parasitic force: it does not aim to dominate the sea-lanes, but to opportunistically pick-off enemy warships and merchantmen when possible. For that role land-based bombers seem to be better suited for the overall character of the force.

4. I seriously doubt that Pakistani shipbuilding industry is advanced enough to assemble the German Sub under question: the U-214. But if they want to try and fail miserably, it will be fun watching.

SchÃ¤r · Post by **SchÃ¤r** » 07 May 2007 13:44

thank you for the answer but I need also answer of the question 5. 6. 7. and 8.

please

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 07 May 2007 14:12

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/0,1 ... 96,00.html

Germany and Pakistan to negotiate on U214 deal valed at least 1bn Euros.

DCN's Marlin and TKMS U214 are the final contenders for the PN's three submarine requirement. At this point both are willing to offer Pakistan the necessary technology transfer to manufacture all three submarines locally. However the French are offering better economic offsets than the Germans - and the French President himself went and offered the Marlin. So French competition is strong and threatens the German sale prospect to Pakistan. Another issue brought up by German critics is the possibility that Pakistan would integrate the Babur LACM on the U214s. The critics firmly believe that a naval version of the Babur is under development for submarine launch. Nonetheless TKMS is negotiating with the Pakistan Navy.

Side notes:

The Pakistan Navy has already awarded KSEW to manufacture all three submarines.

The Navy also recently ordered DM2A4 torpedoes from Germany.

http://www.bits.de/public/articles/u-boot-pakistan.htm

Translated excerpt from above article:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Federal Government does not raise such questions only. It justifies its support for HDW and the nut/mother company Thyssen Krupp navy of system (TKMS) purely economically: "with the receipt of the order the German exporter was put into the position, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell manufacturing. In addition the appropriate occupation effects (...) come "and them suggest that yet all days evening is not: "the order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested." That could be. Pakistan would like later further submarines and shows up also interested in German frigates and corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS. Wenn's swims, concerns in the German export control no light, selects the brain.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 07 May 2007 16:44

What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?

vinayak_d · Post by **vinayak_d** » 07 May 2007 17:10

hmmm let me see ATV, Akulas, amurs and P-28's.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 May 2007 17:19

SchÃ¤r wrote:thank you for the answer but I need also answer of the question 5. 6. 7. and 8. please

Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8, especially 7, cannot be answered without discussing Pakistani and Indian nuclear postures, Pakistani's preference for proxy war, Pakistani defense priority lists etc. One can only make generalizations based on historic behavior, but that is not too reliable - because if we know it, Paks know it too and be sure they will try their damned hardest to defy it with assymetrical methods.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 07 May 2007 18:30

kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?

It is the role , the major role that IN subs will seldom see any action alone . while PN 's surface fleet is i sorry state , buyoant by their 1971 kill of khukri , they see as a all weather effecive doctrine against indian ships .

while on other hand IN subs will be much more oriented towards battle groups , we shouls have good ASW capabilities , P-28 , KA -31 are good options also we need to issue RFP for second line of Subs Defence

SchÃ¤r · Post by **SchÃ¤r** » 07 May 2007 18:50

Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I

I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)

That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!![/img]

SchÃ¤r · Post by **SchÃ¤r** » 07 May 2007 18:50

Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I

I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)

That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!![/img]

SchÃ¤r · Post by **SchÃ¤r** » 07 May 2007 18:52

I think their Tank Arsenal would not the big Poblem but their air
defence Arsenal SAM

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 May 2007 19:13

kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?

Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 May 2007 19:26

parshuram wrote:while PN 's surface fleet is i sorry state , buyoant by their 1971 kill of khukri , they see as a all weather effecive doctrine against indian ships .

Has that not always been the central doctrine of Pakistani Navy? A scavenger/parasitic role? Looking at their history the PN is very much a junior service to the Army or the Air Force, so with the limitations in talent and resources their way of life is simply one of hunting when opportunity arises. They cannot seriously hope to hold any sea lanes! In fact the maritime threat posed by PN is slowly increasing by the incresing apparentness of their scavenger position - they are finally inviting in a true predator (PLAN) into the small territory they call their sea-front.

SchÃ¤r · Post by **SchÃ¤r** » 08 May 2007 22:03

I have say any coments please !!!

Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I

I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)

That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!!

SchÃ¤r · Post by **SchÃ¤r** » 08 May 2007 22:04

I think their Tank Arsenal would not the big Poblem but their air
defence Arsenal SAM

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 08 May 2007 22:45

We will send you, you can take care of their SAM's

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 08 May 2007 22:54

SchÃ¤r,

MANPADS are a problem but not insurmountable. The aircraft lost in Kargil to MANPADS (1 MiG-21 and 1 Chopper) were both lost in conditions that were optimal for the Manpads. The choppers flares system was not working, and the MiG-21 pilot made repeated passes, allowing for the Manpads operator to acquire him, track and fire.

So, when it comes to dealing with Pak armour/infantry, the rule of the day will be for low flying aircraft, avoiding radar coverage- if possible- to attack the formation, make a few quick strikes and egress rapidly. They will not stick around and allow the formations MANPADs units to orient themselves and retaliate.

Its also instructive to note, that all of Paks SHORAD for the tanks is limited to human guidance. They dont have any Tunguska, Pantsyr type units which can detect and engage air targets from miles away.

So in the Indo-Pak context, there is still an option, for tactical strikes by rockets etc from the air on tanks etc.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 08 May 2007 23:00

edited...wrong thread

vatsiboy · Post by **vatsiboy** » 08 May 2007 23:19

vatsiboy · Post by **vatsiboy** » 08 May 2007 23:25

in wake of increased cooperation b\t india and US russia has turned a blind eye to the sale of JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines.
russia had earlier stopped its sale to pakistan.
the new development is a matter of grave concern for IAF and indian armed forces as a whole.

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 08 May 2007 23:36

ParGha wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?
Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.

Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..
Seakings on the Godavari were always described as being able to carry anti-ship missiles....Delhi class has 16 anti ship missiles, but to me our ASW capability is woefully lacking. I was dissapointed also that the Talwar had only one helo.
Most new warships also seem to emphasize Bramhos..
Given that Paks navy's surface fleet will play little or no part in any future conflict, this seems overkill. DEsigning for China? Come on..we have to get out of the Arabian sea first....
In addition, our Seakings for a long time suffered from spares shortage too...and until the uprade, the Il38s were virtually obsolete....

I would like to see more warships fitted with the Klub ASW missile version..The Project28 corvette seems promising....And i will feel a lot more comfortable about the INs ASW capability once they come into service...Plus a selection for the future ASW aircraft and helo also on the cards..the future looks brighter....

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 May 2007 00:11

vatsiboy wrote:in wake of increased cooperation b\t india and US russia has turned a blind eye to the sale of JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines.
russia had earlier stopped its sale to pakistan.
the new development is a matter of grave concern for IAF and indian armed forces as a whole.

The engines in question were already in Chinese hands, what the Russians did was a face-saving measure of symbolically accepting its use on the JF-17s. It should be a lesson to India that it either gains the influence to block Russian sales to China, or resign itself to the fact that the designs will end up in Pakistan's hands one day or another.

JF-17s themselves are not a matter of concern to India - its a fighter that PLAAF itself has rejected, for gods' sake!

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 May 2007 00:20

Nandan D wrote:
ParGha wrote: Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.
Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..

DEsigning for China? Come on..we have to get out of the Arabian sea first....

First of all I am in complete agreement with you over the ASM efforts.

However the anti-ship weapons do play a significant role if it is planned for a slightly different type of ships than the gray ones, if you get the drift. Those designs are exactly for China, and there is no need to get out of the Indian Ocean for that to come into play. Its a fact the Chinese already appreciate, hence their interest in Gawdar deep-sea port and sub facility.

Indian Navy will be the knife that rips the Chinese String of Pearls - Chinese know that, so they are trying to reinforce that with steel wire and blunt the cutting edge.

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 00:41

kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?
Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.
Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..
Seakings on the Godavari were always described as being able to carry anti-ship missiles....Delhi class has 16 anti ship missiles, but to me our ASW capability is woefully lacking. I was dissapointed also that the Talwar had only one helo.
Most new warships also seem to emphasize Bramhos..
Given that Paks navy's surface fleet will play little or no part in any future conflict, this seems overkill.

What's wrong with using BrahMos?It's a supersonic cruise missile complex which can attack diverse targets.
Overkill?This term is never used in military doctrine.
When the enemy attacks you throw everything at them....rest is called "collateral damage".
No mercy is shown to your combatants from the other side...unless they're unarmed civilians.

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 09 May 2007 00:48

SonarDeshi wrote:
Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.
Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..
Seakings on the Godavari were always described as being able to carry anti-ship missiles....Delhi class has 16 anti ship missiles, but to me our ASW capability is woefully lacking. I was dissapointed also that the Talwar had only one helo.
Most new warships also seem to emphasize Bramhos..
Given that Paks navy's surface fleet will play little or no part in any future conflict, this seems overkill.
What's wrong with using BrahMos?It's a supersonic cruise missile complex which can attack diverse targets.

Nothing wrong with BrahMos.

Except that you can't expect it to *detect* submarines..

Let me clarify, that i am not against BrahMos, or anti ship capability, but feel that we need to invest a lot more in our ASW capability than we have been doing else it will come back to bite us...like 1965...
With Project 128 class corvettes, and possibly P-3/P-8 , upgrades to Il-38 I believe the IN is addressing that... ASW is not as "sexy" as anti-ship or BrahMos but it should, imo, be higher our list of priorities, especially given PNs primarily "sea-denial" role...and the complexities in detecting and destroying subs.. my last thoughts on this subject in this thread...since this is the paksitani weapons thread....we can always continue this discussion in the naval thread...

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 00:57

Right.

Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 09 May 2007 01:00

SSNs..............is what we need against poor mans AIP.

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 01:17

rkhanna wrote:http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/0,1 ... 96,00.html

Germany and Pakistan to negotiate on U214 deal valed at least 1bn Euros.

DCN's Marlin and TKMS U214 are the final contenders for the PN's three submarine requirement. The critics firmly believe that a naval version of the Babur is under development for submarine launch. Nonetheless TKMS is negotiating with the Pakistan Navy.

The Navy also recently ordered DM2A4 torpedoes from Germany.

http://www.bits.de/public/articles/u-boot-pakistan.htm

Translated excerpt from above article:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Federal Government does not raise such questions only. It justifies its support for HDW and the nut/mother company Thyssen Krupp navy of system (TKMS) purely economically: "with the receipt of the order the German exporter was put into the position, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell manufacturing. In addition the appropriate occupation effects (...) come "and them suggest that yet all days evening is not: "the order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested." That could be. Pakistan would like later further submarines and shows up also interested in German frigates and corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS. Wenn's swims, concerns in the German export control no light, selects the brain.

I don't quite get it.HDW/DCN/TKMS have active dealings with the IN for various naval systems and naval designing contracts.How come these "purely economical" dealings don't have a national security angle?
Is our Co-Intel good enough to plug the possible defence leaks?

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 May 2007 01:18

joey wrote:SSNs..............is what we need against poor mans AIP.

AIP is the poor man's SSN... or am I missing a joke here?

vatsiboy · Post by **vatsiboy** » 09 May 2007 12:02

ParGha wrote:
vatsiboy wrote:in wake of increased cooperation b\t india and US russia has turned a blind eye to the sale of JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines.
russia had earlier stopped its sale to pakistan.
the new development is a matter of grave concern for IAF and indian armed forces as a whole.
The engines in question were already in Chinese hands, what the Russians did was a face-saving measure of symbolically accepting its use on the JF-17s. It should be a lesson to India that it either gains the influence to block Russian sales to China, or resign itself to the fact that the designs will end up in Pakistan's hands one day or another.

JF-17s themselves are not a matter of concern to India - its a fighter that PLAAF itself has rejected, for gods' sake!

i am not sure about its rejection. rejected by PAF or PLAAF or both it doent really matter. the point is that its in service and that too with an engine of our closest military ally. and serial production will start from 2008 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

JF17s surely does not turn the table on india. but its a concern that going closer to an unreliable country like US can hamper our relations with our old trusted allies. US has an impeccable history of not respecting international commitments when its needed the most.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 09 May 2007 13:09

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/meko/

MEKO CLASS STEALTH FRIGATES OFFERED TO PAKIS BY THE GERMANS,,,THESE FRIGATES LOOK DEADLY AND CAN GIVE A STIFF COMPETITION TO OUR PROJECT 17 A FRIGATES CHECK OUT

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

THE PROJECT U 214 SUBMARINES
MAN I HATE THE GERMANS,,,THEY ARE OFFERING THE TERRORISTS SUCH DEADLY CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS

vinayak_d · Post by **vinayak_d** » 09 May 2007 13:52

Relax the porkis have no money for any frigates. Why do you think they are buying frigates from china on loan?
The subs are there best bet but a good navy like IN has sufficient ASW to counter them. IN needs to buy sufficient MPA's and Get the ATV into water soon.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 May 2007 14:35

India can very easily checkmate the pakis as far as sub technology is concerned.We already have 4 U-209s in servcie.The "Germs" have been very keen for us to buy more of the same upgraded versions,knowing that an IN buy brings them rich rewards worldwide,as many countries choose their military eqpt. after India has bought a system (MIG-29 &SU-30MKI-Malaysia.U-209-S.Africa,Kilos-Iran,etc.).What we have to do is to upgrade the U-209s with AIP and underwater missile firing capability,for Klubs.The AIP can then be considered as the AIP system for the Brahmos equipped Amur,so the Germans have a finger in that pie.The French are already selling us the Scorpene and either a few more upgraded versions of the same,or another advanced sub designed by them could be evaluated by the IN.This way,we will always be ahead of the Pakis,who will then have to go to China for their sub acquisitions.

vinayak_d · Post by **vinayak_d** » 09 May 2007 14:51

Don't count on checkmating power of india. India can't afford to keep buying from others and will shift to indeginous production. Then what? The best way is to come up with better countermeasures and ofcourse repay in kind.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 May 2007 15:19

SonarDeshi wrote:Right.

Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.

Blastic missiles to attack subs?

Are you a paki?

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 15:41

krishnan wrote:
SonarDeshi wrote:Right.

Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Blastic missiles to attack subs?

Are you a paki?

no,am not.meant to say that the DRDO must start a anti-sub missile program in earnest.It could possibly re-utilize the design experience gained from its Agni SLBM or the BrahMos.
However,I checked this up...and now think I'm wrong.Have realized that action of SLBM is way too different from an anti-sub one.Forgive me.

Anyway,is Pakistan building a nuke-sub on its own?

According to ibnlive.com the first ATV is set to be launched by 2007 and has overcome its main problem:

Reports now indicate that India has "overcome" the biggest problem or miniaturisation of a nuclear power plant that is to be mounted on a submarine hull.

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 15:44

deleted

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 15:44

krishnan wrote:
SonarDeshi wrote:Right.

Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Blastic missiles to attack subs?

Are you a paki?

no,am not.meant to say that the DRDO must start a anti-sub missile program in earnest.It could possibly re-utilize the design experience gained from its Agni SLBM or the BrahMos.
However,I checked this up...and now think I'm wrong.Have realized that action of SLBM is way too different from an anti-sub one.Forgive me.

Anyway,IS Pakistan building a nuke-sub on its own??

According to ibnlive.com the first ATV prototype is set to be launched by 2007 and has overcome its main problem:

Reports now indicate that India has overcome the biggest problem or miniaturisation of a nuclear power plant that is to be mounted on a submarine hull.

member_8863 · Post by **member_8863** » 09 May 2007 15:47

Anyway,IS Pakistan building a nuke-sub on its own??

he is definately a paki

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 16:32

skher · Post by **skher** » 09 May 2007 17:46

um...it's not so.

Right,finally three things would be a boon for our military forces...the LCA PV-3 flying well,the Arjun doing well in Thar and the ATV prototype finally coming into picture.
2007 would be good year for our indigenous designs,what say?