Q.Quincy<P>I trawled through the articles upto oct98, pertaining to events around 1962-1971. <P>This is what i dug out.. i am calling it quits at this stage, i need to get some sleep.. <P>A lot of it is just excerpts from the text so it is not all coherent. each blank line denotes the start of a new reference. <P>I would rate all this in the positive but possible old range.. <P>(march98)<P>23 Cavalry would be the integral tank regiment of 8 Division and stationed at Quetta<P>(april98)<P>6 Armoured Division was the 100 Independent Armoured Brigade consisting of<BR>three armoured regiments, 13 Lancers, Guides Cavalry and 11 Cavalry, two<BR>motorised infantry battalions, 9 FF and 14 FF, one self propelled<BR>artillery regiments, it had engineers and service units which had been upgraded<BR>from companys to battalions, it did not have any brigade headquarters.<BR>The division commander was Major General Abrar Hussain, there was no<BR>colonel staff, the GSO 1 was Lieutenant Colonel Farzand Ali, 13 Lancers,<BR>the AA&QMG was Lieutenant Colonel Ghouse Mohiuddin, 4 Cavalry, the GSO 2<BR>(Operations) was Major Habib Akbar, 6 Lancers, later brigadier, the GSO 2<BR>(Intelligence) was Major Mir Abad Hussain, 6 Lancers, later brigadier,<BR>there was a DAAG and I became the 'DQ', relieving Major Khalid Kayani who<BR>hurriedly completed the formalities and left.<P>(** This unit i.e 6 Division was based at Sialkot in 1965, there is a<BR>reference to a big operation they planned in the sialkot sector called<BR>WINDUP in one of the other articles. **)<P><BR>23 Cavalry had moved from Quetta to Lahore and had replaced 24 Cavalry as<BR>the divisional integral armoured regiment.<P>On 4 September 6 Brigade arrived from Quetta, relieved 102 Brigade forming<BR>the firm base on the Tawi, and 102 Brigade advanced forcing the Indians to<BR>abandon Jaurian.<P>The Indian attack had an immediate effect on Grand Slam', 10 Brigade was<BR>ordered to move to Sialkot, 11 Cavalry reverted to 6 Armoured Division, 4<BR>Corps Artillery was placed under command 1 Corps.<P>(may98)<P>15 Division with three infantry brigades, two armoured regiments 31 and 33<BR>TDUs and 20 Lancers, Corps Reconnaissance Regiment was made responsible<BR>for Sialkot and Jassar,<P>(8 this one is a wartime deployment during 1965 so it is not likely to be<BR>the same now.)<P>on 18 September, 1 Corps reorganised the command between the Chenab and<BR>the Ravi rivers, 15 Division with 51, 101 and 104 Brigades was to defend<BR>Sialkot, 6 Armoured Division with 4 Armoured Brigade and 14 (Para) Brigade<BR>was made responsible for the area up to Chawinda and 8 Division, nowcommanded by Major General Naseer who had been removed from the command of<BR>1 Armoured Division, with 10, 24 and 115 Brigades, was made responsible <BR>for Chawinda, Zafarwal and Narowal.<P><BR>The Headquarters 4 Armoured Brigade was now made available to 6 Armoured <BR>Division to command its armour elements which now consisted of 19 Lancers,<BR>22 Cavalry and 14 FF and was given the task of containing the salient<BR>across the Sialkot-Narowal railway line.<P>11 Division was responsible from Bedian to Gandasinghwala. This division<BR>consisted of 21, 52 and 106 Brigades of two battalions each, 6 Lancers as<BR>the integral armoured regiment and the artillery was one heavy regiment<BR>and it had 15 Lancers, a corps reconnaissance regiment was also under<BR>command. The border defences from Gandasinghwala to Sulemanki were also <BR>the responsibility of the division but were handed over to the Rangers.<BR>The operational task of the division was the defence of Kasur, attacks<BR>along the Ferozepur-Kasur and the Khem-Karan -Kasur roads and the securing<BR>of Pajoke-Bahadur Nagar line to facilitate the operations of the Army<BR>reserve.<P>The Army Reserve consisting of 1 Armoured Division and 7 Division was <BR>located in the area Changa Manga Forest to operate south of Sulemanki, in<BR>the Ravi-Sutlej corridor and in the Chenab-Ravi corridor. 7 Division,<BR>commanded by Major General A.M. Yahya detached 25 Brigade to 6 Armoured<BR>Division, 10 Brigade was despatched to 12 Division for operation 'Grand <BR>Slam' and the Headquarters 7 Division moved to Bhimber leaving 14 (Para) <BR>Brigade which also moved to Chawinda leaving 1 Armoured Division without<BR>any infantry.<P>1 Armoured Division, the elite armoured formation of the Pakistan Army, <BR>evolved from the 3rd Independent Armoured Brigade, it had two armoured<BR>brigades of an armoured regiment and an armoured/motorised infantry <BR>battalion, one brigade of two armoured regiments and an armoured infantry<BR>battalion and a reconnaissance regiment.<P>(june98)<P>I then called on the 10 Division EME Battalion..<P>In mid April of 1966, about year after the army had moved to the borders, the<BR>troops were back in their barracks, 23 Cavalry remained the integral <BR>regiment of 10 Division and remained in Lahore.<P>22 Cavalry at Multan to be promoted lieutenant colonel. I flew from<BR>Rawalpindi to Lahore and had to stop almost the whole night at the<BR>Lahoreairport. At Multan Major Shah Rafi Alam, SJ, later lieutenant <BR>general, met me at the airport and took me to 4 Armoured Brigade<BR>Headquarters<P>(july98)<P>22 Cavalry was raised as the integral regiment of 7 Division in 1962, <BR>equipped with M 48A1 tanks and stationed at Peshawar. It had a 'Class<BR>composition' of 60% PMs (Punjabi Musalman) and 40% Pathans. Lieutenant<BR>Colonel Mohammad Yasin Khan, 11 Cavalry, raised the regiment and commanded<BR>it till the beginning of 1966. During the '65 war with India the regiment<BR>came under the command of 6 Armoured Division and held the left flank of<BR>the division, linking it with 15 Division. Since 22 Cavalry was deployed <BR>in a relative quiet sector, the Junior Commissioned Officers and the men<BR>explored the battlefield and recovered a number of tanks abandoned by the<BR>Guides Cavalry and other tank regiments operating in the area, after the<BR>ceasefire the regiment had more tanks than it was authorised. In the<BR>reorganisation after the '65 war 22 Cavalry became part of 4 Armoured<BR>Brigade in 1 Armoured Division. Lieutenant Colonel Sikander on promotion<BR>assumed the command of the regiment in 1966 but about a year later he had<BR>a difference of opinion with Major General Gul Hasan and was replaced by<BR>Lieutenant Colonel Zia-ul-Haq. 22 Cavalry was supposed to have been in a<BR>bad shape and Lieutenant Colonel Zia-ul-Haq was sent to bring it at par<BR>with the rest of the armoured regiments of 1 Armoured Division. <P>22 Cavalry and 7 FF, an armoured infantry battalion, commanded by <BR>Lieutenant Colonel Niazi, formed 4 Armoured Brigade<P>The 1 Armoured Division, at this time consisted of three armoured <BR> brigades, 3rd Armoured Brigade of two armoured regiments and an armoured<BR>infantry battalion, 4th and 5th Armoured Brigades of an armoured regiment<BR>and one armoured infantry battalion each. The Divisional Artillery <BR>consisted of a medium regiment, three 'self propelled' field regiments and<BR>an anti-aircraft regiment. The division had a reconnaissance regiment and<BR>the necessary service units. The reconnaissance regiment was 12 Cavalry <BR>commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Mohammed Abdullah Shah Orakzai, the<BR>armoured regiments were 5 Horse commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Agha Javed<BR>Iqbal, 3rd PMA Course, later colonel, 6 Lancers, commanded by Lieutenant <BR>Colonel Arshad Mehmud Javed, later brigadier, 19 Lancers commanded by <BR>Lieutenant Colonel Syed Wajahat Hussain, later major general, the infantry<BR>units were 1 FF, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Abdullah Saeed, later <BR>major general, 7 FF, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Niazi and 1 FF,<BR>commanded by Lieutenant Colonel 'George' Rabbani, later major general.<P>Akram Hussain Syed from my course was also promoted and had the privilege<BR>of raising a new regiment, 28 Cavalry, as the integral regiment of 23 <BR>Division.<P>Just before martial law was declared Colonel Zia-ul-Haq was promoted and<BR>posted to raise and command 9 Armoured Brigade in 6 Armoured Division,<P>(aug98-sept98)<P>(*this appears to be solely on b-desh*)<P>(oct98)<P>On 25 September the Station Headquarters Rawalpindi informed me that I had<BR>been posted to raise 38 Cavalry in Hyderabad, to be part of the 18<BR>Division. I packed up and drove to Rawalpindi, when I saw the posting <BR>order it said that Lieutenant Colonel Shamim Yasin Manto, later brigadier,<BR>was posted to 28 Cavalry, the integral armoured regiment of 23 Division, <BR>which had been raised and commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Akram Syed<P>31 Cavalry, originally 31 Tank Delivery Unit located at Sialkot became 31 <BR>Cavalry after the `65 war with India and moved to Hyderabad as the<BR>integral armoured regiment of 18 Division. In the middle of 1971 it was<BR>decided to equip the armoured regiment of 18 Division with T-59 Chinese<BR>tanks. Since 31 Cavalry was not trained on the T-59s it was decided that<BR>22 Cavalry from the 1st Armoured Division would move to Hyderabad and take<BR>over new T-59 tanks and 31 Cavalry would move to the 1st Armoured Division<BR>to be trained on T-59 tanks, the Sherman II tanks of 31 Cavalry would be<BR>overhauled and handed over to the newly created 38 Tank Delivery Unit, a<BR>nucleus tank regiment with the full complement of tanks, a few vehicles <BR>and about 115 men, to be located at Hyderabad and when necessary it would<BR>be converted into a regiment by posting the manpower and providing<BR>the necessary additional equipment and vehicles.<P>An armoured regiment in 1971 had fifty tanks, including tank dozers andarmoured recovery vehicles; for command, control, administration and<BR>communication, jeeps and 3/4 tons fitted with wireless sets capable of<BR>communicating with tanks were authorised,<BR>(*this part is about the battle of longewala)<P>38 Cavalry grouped with 1 Punjab and a mortar battery, under my command,<BR>was to follow 51 Brigade up to Loganewala and then to proceed<BR>independently to seize and neutralise the Indian Air Force base at<BR>Jaisalmir.<P>1 Punjab was reverted to the command of 206 Brigade and we received<BR>instructions from the division headquarters that the operation would be <BR>continued after last light. At Gabbar just before last light 38 Baluch,<BR>commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Anwar Shah, joined 22 Cavalry and a<BR>battery of 130 mm guns passed through to Masitwari Bhit.<P>20 FF, a battalion of 206 Brigade, was not provided with transport and<BR>started off on foot<P>the commanding officer of 28 Baluch the Reconnaissance and Support<BR>Battalion of 18 Division to advance along the Loganewala- Jaisalmir road<BR>and capture Ghotaru,<P>the two infantry battalions of 206 Brigade, I Punjab and 10 Punjab had<BR>arrived.<BR>then take the vehicle to the 18 Division tactical headquarters at Gabbar.<P>A few days after my headquarters moved to Manthar, Risaldar Major Mazhar<BR>Ali informed me that there were allegations of cowardice against Major<BR>Ghulam Mujtaba `A' Squadron commander, whose squadron had been placed <BR>under command of 55 Brigade at Chhor.A' Squadron was initially placed in<BR>the brigade reserve with 26 Baluch,<P>On 15 December all the tanks of the squadron with a company of 39 FF<BR>attacked BP 405 and it was occupied without opposition, later another<BR>attack by 45 Punjab was supported.<P>8 Division operations, code named Labbaik, as an exercise in futility. The<BR>mission assigned to 18 Division was to `Defend the area of responsibility<BR>in order to ensure the security of the main lines of communications<BR>Karachi - Multan and be prepared to carry out the war into the enemy <BR>territory under favourable conditions.' This implied the guarding of the<BR>600 miles of road and rail communications which came precariously close to<BR>the border from Dharki to Rahim Yar Khan, the 18 Division attack surprised<BR>the Indians, it was a successful spoiling attack, the Indians never<BR>recovered their balance. The division's mission was accomplished both on<BR>the Chhor front and the Sadiqabad-Rahim Yar Khan area.<P>army plan was to create a gap by drawing away the Indian 1 Armoured<BR>Division to Jaisalmer. When the gap sought was not achieved due to the<BR>failure of 18 Division, the army plan was revised. 3rd Armoured Brigade <BR>from IV Corps was made the flank protection force for the II Corps<BR>offensive. On 16 December II Corps, consisting of 1 Armoured Division, 7<BR>Division, 36 Division and 3rd Armoured Brigade was ordered to launch an<BR>offensive in the Bahawalnagar - Fort Abbas area. 1 Armoured Division was<BR>to move from its concentration area astride the Lodhran - Multan -<BR>Khanewal railway on the night of 16/17 December. A captain of 1 FF,<BR>commanding a train of his unit, drove the locomotive himself and derailed<BR>the train blocking the railway line. 3rd Armoured Brigade moved from<BR>Changa Manga to its concentration area with lights blacked out and had<BR>forty accidents in the approach march. The launching of the offensive was<BR>delayed by twenty four hours, the next night 1 Armoured Division could not<BR>move again, there seemed to be built-in hindrance to the execution of the <BR>army plans. On 18 December we asked for a ceasefire.<P>Lieutenant Colonel S. S. Islam, Corps of Signal, was the 1 Armoured <BR>Division Signal Battalion commander during the war.<P><BR>
Q.Quincy, <P>I entirely agree with your assesment, i tried to keep it focussed but the book has some rather tempting historical stuff in it. <P>Right now i dont have any plans to build up a PA orbat site. even if i can build up one small database with positive credibility material and then if the Admins agree to archive the thread, i feel a lot will have been achieved. <P>This thread could form the basis for any further ideas that someone may have. <P>So at my end this is primarily an effort at collating information out there.. the real picture as you said is outside our reach.. <P>I am grateful to you for your guidance.. <P>I am a physics grad student here at yale so very often all these hobbies are sustained at the expense of sleep and a `normal' social life.. not too bad a bargain in my present frame of mind.. <BR>
Mr. Quincy,<BR>Please check your e-mail.<P>Also, why do you state that all hell will break lose if it is found that the Pu came from a certain country to the north of India?<BR>Surely that must be known by now. But then, the ring magnets' delivery was known too, way back in 1994 if not earlier. Yet nothing substantive came from that. Why should one expect anything other than another sweep under the rug by this administration which seems so keen on not alienating a communist power which breaks the NPT and showers goodies on that country, while simultaneously punishing the most populous democracy which embarked on its own program based primarily on threat perception from the northern neighbor?<P>But I digress from the subject matter of this superb thread. I have no intention to divert the thread, and hence I request you to start another thread on this issue where you note that you have done some nosing around. I am confident many other learned members of this forum would find your information useful.
They(TSP) did not use uranium, but plutonium. Since they did not have any plutonium production capacity at the time, having just started work on a plutonium production reactor, the question then becomes: where did they get the plutonium from. <P>Who helped TSP to setup the Plutonium plant.<BR>The main country is China. Also some firms from US was allowed to do the work. It was to be setup quickly so that TSP could legitimately show that they had plutonium. But could not do it in time. Did GOI know that before hand? Hence the timing of the test? Lot of questions still unanswered.<P>Among P-5 there are possibly two countries who would like India not to be SNW deep down. One is obviously our northern neighbour. There is one more country which colluded with China during the CTBT negotiation to put the entry into force clause(?). THis country has a historical reason to see that India does not reach the SNW status. Did this country give the plutonium to TSP?
Great thread, Q Quincy & S Sainis. Keep it going on the PA Corps Structure & Commanders theme. Rupak is right.<P>OTOH, Q Quincy do start another thread on the plutonium. This is the million dollar question that has been asked on this forum ever since Pu detection was leaked. Ramana is the main man on this question, and I believe he has more details saved on this issue than most. So do start another thread.<P>Best Regards<BR>JE Menon
jayji,<P>I am pressed for time, i only get time to search out stuff and put it up here, i would appreciate it if you collated the info. we have here. I like the spreadsheet format.Please try to accomodate everything possible. <P>Q.Quincy,<P>Please put up even the most obscure details that you can recall, i do not have a specific use for this information in mind, but it is possible someone else might, so I would prefer it that the possibility is not precluded. Bharat-rakshak has a strong interest in military-historical perspectives of india-pakistan, so some of the info may be of use to the Mil. Hist. types here. as regards nuclear weapons, i was supposed to work on a write up on the indian tests, but that requires more time than i can put in at this point.. so i have put it on the back-burner at least till winter break. <P>You point about the copy writers of the book is well made, i did not consider this a possibility. As regards Brig khan, i am quite unsure what to make of him, his accounts are extra-ordinarily detailed, but how they have been colored by his interactions with the PA senior management or his treatment by the same i cannot say. He is very judicious with his praise, almost never does he praise the men under his command, missing also are the eulogies and the hot-talk that one often finds in accounts such as these. Also this is the first time i have heard a military officer accuse his troops of being "thieves".. it is all very unusual.. <P> <BR>
Posted by Mr. Q Quincy<P>----------------------------------------<P>Okay, gentlemen. If you all are really that interested.<BR>Pakistan I Corps HQ Mangla<BR>6 Armored Division, HQ Kharian; 7 and 9 Armored Brigades, also both Kharian.<BR>17 Division, HQ Kharian; 77, 207, and 315 Brigades, all Kharian.<BR>New division, location and flag not known to me.<P>Pakistan XXX Corps HQ Sialkot<BR>8 Division, HQ Sialkot; 14, 24, 124 Brigades, all Sialkot.<BR>15 Division, HQ Sialkot; 10, 101, 114, 313 Brigades, all Sialkot.<BR>8 Independent Armored Brigade, station unknown<BR>54 Independent Infantry Brigade, Sialkot.<P>Notes: 14 Brigade has also been known as 14 Parachute Brigade. My question to Mr. Sainis <BR>on keeping an eye out for 101 Brigade has been answered, I should have looked more closely at Mr. Rikhye's message.<P>More to follow; meantime for those interested, Indian X Corps, HQ Bhatinda.<BR>18 Division Kota, three brigades at Kota.<BR>16 Division Gobindgarh, four brigades, at Kasauli (95), Fazilka (67), Ganganager (51), and Fazilka.<BR>24 Division at Bikaner, one brigade at Suratgarh and 3 at Bikaner.<BR>6 Independent Armored Brigade, Bhatinda.<P>Note: 24 was first RAPID; on reflection, I think 16 has to be RAPID too. There used be a distinction between offensive and defensive RAPID; if it still remains, 16 and 24 would be offensive, as X Corps is actually a strike corps even though it holds defensive positions between Fazilka and Suratgarh. <P>XII Corps Jodhpur<BR>11 Division HQ ??Ahemdabad?? with brigades at Poona, Bangalore, and Ahemdabad.<BR>12 Division, HQ Jodhpur, with three brigades.<BR>4 Independent Armored Brigade, Jodhpur<BR>61 Independent Infantry Brigade, Jodhpur.<P>XI Corps Jullunder<BR>15 Division HQ ??Amritsar?? with two brigades at Gurdaspur, one at Jullunder, and one at Amritsar.<BR>9 Division, HQ Meerut, one brigade Meerut, one brigade Delhi, one brigade Jullunder.<BR>(Note on 9 Division: this does not have to deploy to XI Corps but given the realities on the ground it definitely will, and Gurdaspur is the most likely war station.)<BR>7 Division, HQ Ferozepur, three brigades.<BR>23 Independent Armored Brigade<BR>55 Independent Mechanized Brigade, Beas.<P>Most of the above referenced to Mr. Rikhye.<BR>All the best till next time.<P>
The 11 corps at Jalandhar (Jullundur, according to old timers) has 2 Divs under it 15 Div. (Panther) at Amritsar and 7 Div. (Golden Arrow) at Ferozepur. There used to be a div at Pathankot in the 1980's but I dont know if it is still there.<P>The 9th Div. at Merrut does not come under 11 corps area. It is under 2 Corps which is stationed at Ambala.<P>
Hi this is the last scan of the Z.A.Khan book.. <P>(nov98)<P>February 1972 I and my family moved to Kharian and I reported at the 6<BR>Armoured Division headquarters which was located in a canal department<BR>rest house at Satrah.<P>In the division headquarters just before my arrival, the colonel staff,<BR>Colonel Agha Javed Iqbal, the commanding officer of the Signal Battalion,<BR>Lieutenant Colonel Khurshid, the commander 9 Armoured Brigade, Brigadier<BR>Iqbal Mehdi Shah, the commanding officer 9 FF, commander I Corps Artillery<BR>Brigadier F.B. Ali and Colonel Alim Afridi, Artillery, had been posted<BR>out from their posts<P>Lieutenant Colonel Syed Masood Ahmad, who had been a squadron officer with<BR>me in 'A' Squadron, 13 Lancers, and had commanded the regiment during the<BR>battle took me around the battlefield, and described the battle. Looking<BR>at the terrain I estimated that the Indians would have had six squadrons<BR>of tanks but Lieutenant Colonel Masood told me that after the ceasefire <BR>they had found that there were nine squadrons. There were a lot of reasons<BR>for the 13 Lancers disaster, I Corps commander launched a counter attack<BR>without sealing the breach in his front, Brigadier Mohammad Ahmad,<BR>commander 8 Armoured Brigade made no effort to find out the extent of the<BR>breach in the Corps front or the strength of the enemy he was counter <BR>attacking.<P>The 6 Armoured Division peace station was Kharian, about sixty miles from<BR>the area where it was deployed,<P>In June 1972 I was posted to command the 3rd (Independent) Armoured<BR>Brigade in IV Corps,<P>I took over the command of 3rd Armoured Brigade from Brigadier Fazl-e-Haq,<BR>later lieutenant general. The 3rd Armoured Brigade, minus armoured<BR>regiments, was taken from 1 Armoured Division, it consisted of the <BR>armoured infantry battalion 1 FF, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Rana,<BR>later brigadier, 16 (SP) Field Regiment, Artillery, the services elements<BR>came from the armoured division, 4 Cavalry, equipped with M 48 tanks,<BR>commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Khawar Rashid Peerzada, taken from 11<BR>Division and 15 Lancers, equipped with T- 34 Russian tanks, the IV Corps<BR>reconnaissance regiment, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel M. Khurshid<BR>Afridi, who had been a platoon commander in 'J' Company, SSG, when I<BR>raised it, composed the armour element but 15 Lancers was deployed to<BR>cover the Sutlej river from Hussieniwala to Sulemanki, 52 Punjab,<BR>commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Shafiq, later lieutenant general, a newly<BR>raised infantry battalion made up its order of battle.<BR>The brigade major of the brigade was Major Hamid Gul, later lieutenant <BR>general and the DQ was Major Allah Baksh Tiwana, the brigade headquarters<BR>was located in the Changa Manga Forest Rest House. Although 3rd Armoured<BR>Brigade was supposed to be an 'Independent' brigade, its organisation had<BR>not been decided and powers of an independent brigade commander were not <BR>delegated, therefore the Corps commander held the administrative and<BR>disciplinary powers. The role of the brigade was to counter attack any<BR>lodgement by the Indians between the Ravi River and Sulemanki headwork.<P>In November I was informed that the brigade was to return to its peace<BR>station Lahore and minefields were to be lifted. 15 Lancers was deployed along<BR>the Sutlej River and certain areas were mined.<P>On 11 September, which was holiday on account of Quaid-e-Azam's death <BR>anniversary, I received an immediate order posting me to 9 Armoured<BR>Brigade in 6 Armoured Division, in Kharian.<P><BR>
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests