Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Amitava
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 87
Joined: 03 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: New Jersey, USA.

Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Amitava » 01 May 2002 20:32

Intelligence Online report on Parakram II, the joint excercise of all services on the Pakistan front.

India advances military exercise on Pak border
29 April 2002:
India has advanced the date of the planned military exercise on its western borders which was originally to be held sometime after 21 May 2002, top officials said.

Officials said that the military exercise could start any time from now and is expected to continue for a period of one month.

India is planning to carry out a massive military exercise on its western borders involving all the three Indian defence services, the army, the air force and the navy.

All the strike corps of Indian Army are to take part in this military exercise.

Analysts say that India wants to communicate strongly its military intent to Pakistan through this exercise in response to Pakistan’s insensitiveness to India’s concerns for cross-border terrorism.

Advancing of the military exercise is intended to put added pressure on Pakistani dictator General Pervez Musharraf on the eve of the 30-April referendum on his continuance in power, an analyst said.

The exercise has been codenamed as Operation Parakram II, said an official.

The Indian Air Force and Navy would be participating in the exercise alongwith the Indian Army and various joint military manoeuvres would be carried out.

The Indian Navy will have a low-key participation in the beginning of the exercise and its level of participation will be expanded at a later stage, an official said.

There has been a massive deployment of Indian troops along the India-Pakistan border ever since the 13-December Pakistani terror attack at India’s Parliament complex.

Amitava
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 87
Joined: 03 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: New Jersey, USA.

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Amitava » 01 May 2002 20:59

Thanks to Ram Narayanan for the following article from Strategic Forecasting

INDIAN WAR GAMES MAKE A POINT WITH WASHINGTON

30 April 2002

The Indian military began large-scale operational maneuvers along the border with Pakistan, in Rajastan and Punjab states, April 30. The exercises, called Parakram II, originally were planned for late May but recently were moved up on the calendar.

The timing of the maneuvers is key: It comes as Pakistani troops are becoming more active in western Pakistan, where they are seeking al Qaeda and Taliban militants. Key Pakistani units that would normally be stationed near the Afghan border now are under pressure to move east in order to help beef up the border with India. Although it is unlikely that the Indian military plans to engage Pakistani forces, the maneuvers are a signal that such an operation is possible -- unless Washington continues to make political, economic or military concessions to New Delhi.

The Parakram II exercises follow on the heels of India's original Parakram I deployment to the Pakistani border in December. Parakram I was reportedly India's biggest mobilization of the armed forces since its 1971 war with Pakistan. The current exercises reportedly involve all three Indian defense services -- the army, air force and navy -- and all the strike corps of the Indian army.

Although invading Pakistan is militarily feasible for Indian forces, politics are quite another matter. It is extremely unlikely that New Delhi wants to risk the domestic disruptions and international condemnation that would follow such a move. Nevertheless, the Pakistani military must respect the Indian operations and deploy troops to counter them -- both out of caution over India's intentions and to appease Pakistani hard-liners who demand that Islamabad not show any weakness.

The problem for Pakistan is that the 11th and 12th military corps -- which are vital reserves in a potential conflict with India -- are needed in western Pakistan, where they normally are stationed. In January, after Indian troops began to move to the border, Islamabad pulled elements of the 11th and 12th corps off the Afghan border and shifted them east.

Pakistani and Western news sources are reporting daily conflicts between U.S. and al Qaeda forces in western Pakistan. Islamabad needs to keep troops in the area, especially if it is planning to increase operations against al Qaeda now that President Pervez Musharraf's five-year term extension seems assured.

Simply put, Pakistan cannot assist the United States against al Qaeda and defend itself against India at the same time. India is illuminating this point in no uncertain way.

New Delhi is showing Washington that its cooperation is just as important as Pakistan's in the fight against al Qaeda -- and that its needs must be taken into account . These needs may range from military equipment, such as the eight weapons-locating radar systems the United States sold to India earlier this month, to economic or political concessions.

Umrao
BRFite
Posts: 547
Joined: 30 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Umrao » 01 May 2002 21:05

Amitava>> Also after reading the second post one needs to understand that by pinning down the TS Pakistani, corps 11 and 12 on the eastern front with India, The GOAT forces lead by US SF has to perform most of the bull work in the tribal areas and areas adjoining the Afghan border. This in turn means

1) A good job will be done in flushing the most wanted jihadis

2) TS Pakistan has to suffer the heart burn that in its (condom) land US SF are roaming scott free without any local tourist guides (to mislead them).

3) US SF will get to see first hand the extent to which TS Pakistan is the abode of terrorist scum.

Amitava
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 87
Joined: 03 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: New Jersey, USA.

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Amitava » 01 May 2002 21:28

IOW, contrary to StratFor, the US SF now has the opportunity to really clean up the scum.

Not that we need to note that Gen Paddy was out of Dilli ;) lately.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6975
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby JE Menon » 01 May 2002 21:37

Umrao Jaan has summed it up methinks. Quite possibly, the exercises are intended to draw Pak forces to its eastern border to prevent salami-slicing which - no matter how chicken-hearted we fish/rice-eating dhotiwalas are - is a distinct possibility at the line of contention. This would mean Pak has no choice but to allow greater numbers of US forces into eastern Pashtunistan to search for Osama Been Hidin'. Now that's what the US wants, Mushy can blame India (not that he needs encouragement), and us slimy baniyas have the benefit of acting tough and of screwing up relations between eastern Pashtuns and Punjabis - all because of a mohajir without backbone enough to stand up to the Great Satan - and the Americans will owe us one. One more layer of antagonisms in the land of the pure, and the RAPE are going around praising themselves for it. Not bad for a couple of weeks work.

Sunil
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 21 Sep 1999 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Sunil » 01 May 2002 21:39

The stratfor analysis toes the "Pakistan - Ally in the Global War Against Terrorism" line set forth by the Presidential team and the State Dept. Either Stratfor is not as independent as it projects or its run by an odd combination of slackers and fourth graders.

The day we want to send a message to the USG, we may actually withdraw our forces from their current positions.

Without us to tie down the 11 and the 12, there is little chance of the US being able to operate in the FATA without serious obstructions. Please understand the US can bomb whatever it likes in the FATA but if their troops start having to engage uniformed Pakistani troops in the area, the conflict will widen in its scope. That is an outcome that i sense the bulk of the powers that be are not really willing to deal with at this point. Basically `Wendy's' Pakistan Burger sells for exactly 99 cents..

member_3562
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 2
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby member_3562 » 01 May 2002 22:21

Has TSP media focused on Parakram II at all? I haven't seen any analysis.

Umrao
BRFite
Posts: 547
Joined: 30 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Umrao » 01 May 2002 22:27

Originally posted by Ram Sastry:
Has TSP media focused on Parakram II at all? I haven't seen any analysis.
How could they, the entire nation is lined up to the thrill of electing the El Presidnete for another 5 years, and most of the armed forces are doing the counting to reach (figure set by Mushy) vote count. Recount triggers automatically till the presidential figure is reached :D (a la florida) Its a massive Land Slide in which everybody is inundated. Also Uncle is taking care of Law and Order in the land(slide) and protecting Mushy from joining the restless 72!!

Amitava
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 87
Joined: 03 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: New Jersey, USA.

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Amitava » 01 May 2002 22:30

The desi media has nothing on it, yet. Nothing on samachar, pti etc. Everyone is buzzing about The Dictator's new clothes.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50431
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby ramana » 01 May 2002 22:44

The Hindu reports in its newsbriefs: "Army exercise along IB in Rajasthan routine"

Note it is called `Operation Bramashava'. I thought it is an operational manouver and not an exercise so that the notification game is not followed.
Vikram Vyas what does the name signify? Brahma's horse? Or Brama(Dream/Delusion) Horse?

Ashok Vyas
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Ashok Vyas » 01 May 2002 23:07

How about "Trojan Horse"? Brahm Ashva - a cross cultural sandhi visarg.

Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Vick » 01 May 2002 23:22

"Trojan Horse" could make sense because as we all know TSP is an US condom and the best known brand of condom is the Trojan. :D

Slow day...

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Y I Patel » 01 May 2002 23:41

"Brahm" denotes a concept close to "Supreme" or "Almighty" in Sanskrit: Brahmastra, Brahmagyan, Brahma, Brahman. So I would go with the hypothesis that this very evocative name can be crudely translated to "All powerful cavalry". That's the problem with translating these hi-funda Sanskritic names they have started coming up with... "Amogh Prahar" "Vajra Path" and now "Brahmashwa"... Too bad the blood curdling significance of these names is lost on the other side!

While the political significance behind the timing is glaringly obvious (Paddy may still be in US), there are several juicy operational aspects for us to salivate on...

One can not but draw comparison to that other massive exercise Brass Tacks. At that time, IIRC two strike corps with 9 divs including two armd and one mech div were involved. Sundarji had also planned a massive deployment exercise that had to be cancelled because of the exhorbitant costs. This time, ofcourse, the deployment did occur anyway; and I am sure IA learnt a lot from it.

I guess the exact contours of the exercise will become clearer by June or so, but we already know the kind of forces that can be deployed: the three strike corps, if used together, woud consist of at least 11 divs including 3 armd, one arty, and a bunch of extremely powerful indep armd bdes. This is more power than the armies of most countries.

During Brass Tacks, Zia was able to disrupt festivities by deploying his 2 corps in the Okara area. IA had to respond by withdrawing 3 Corps from NE CI duties and sending it to Punjab. This time, even if Mush tries something similar, the defensive deployment is already in place.

So we can sit back and look forward to a truly watershed exercise. Some things to take note of, if they appear in press:

(1) are the three corps manouevered together, or in separate areas? If 1,2 and 21 corps exercise together in the same geographic area, it will send Mush's BP through the roof. Imagine what such a force could do if it goes EW instead of NS.

(2) Where will the exercises take place? Poorna Vijay and Vijay Chakra both took place in the Bikaner - Ganganagar area, but Shiv Shakti took place in the Barmer area. If BA takes place in Barmer area, then that will mark a major doctrinal shift.

(3) Will we finally see a brigade level para drop as part of and exercise?

(4) What is the rate and depth of advance for the attacking force, and frontage of advance?

(5) Which new systems will be fielded? Firefinders? T-90s? SP Arty from Denel?

And last but not least,

What is the extent and nature of IAF participation?

Joeqp
BRFite
Posts: 111
Joined: 11 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: Earth

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Joeqp » 02 May 2002 00:04

Originally posted by Vikram Vyas:

(5) Which new systems will be fielded? Firefinders? T-90s? SP Arty from Denel?


I don't think the Firefinders (I assume you are referring to the ANTPQ/37) are there yet, or will be fieldable until next year. A force-multiplier like the Firefinder takes time to be absorbed.

What is the extent and nature of IAF participation?

I'm also wondering about the Navy. What will they be doing? (If the Navy shows up in Barmer ... :D )

As always, I'm sure expert like Mr. Vyas will keep us well informed.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50431
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby ramana » 02 May 2002 00:09

Vikram thanks for the benchmarks to judge the events as they unfold. Why does Barmer represent a doctrine shift if Shiv Shakti already took place there? Is it size? Also thanks for the name clarification. Will see if there really was a 'Brahmashva' in mythology. Maybe Paddy was explaining the idea of BA to uncle prevent future Vij panics.

Umrao
BRFite
Posts: 547
Joined: 30 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Umrao » 02 May 2002 00:12

ramana garu>> I think there is refernce to this mythical horse, along with the Iravatham (the elephant of Indra, and generated during the Madhanam of (Milky) oceans).

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50431
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby ramana » 02 May 2002 00:24

Umraojaan that horse was called 'Ucchiasirava'

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby shiv » 02 May 2002 00:24

I find it interesting that the exercises are being conducted at a time when Rajasthan is averaging 45 deg Celsius daytime temps. Not many nations are capable of conducting war in that climate.

These guys must surely be testing their systems to work in Indian weather - aiming to put to rest any reassuring Packee dreams that a war cannot occur in summer because India/Packee military equipment works only in winter/NATO nation temperatures.

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Rudra » 02 May 2002 00:25

we should be having 80 T-90C tanks as of this
week. Ru ship was supposed to arrive in Mumbai
with 40 last week. Maybe the first 40 will be
formed into a under-strength regiment and used
too ?

as for IN participation, Dornier EW will be used ofcourse.

sea harriers can also practise firing rockets and
guns at hapless cardboard targets and disused
tanks!

Why dont they qualify all naval infantry as paras
too to gain addl flexibility ? Marcos could certainly help in heliborne ops to leap-frog river and canal defenses.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Y I Patel » 02 May 2002 00:44

Jumrao Aairawat (Indra's elephant) and Uchchesrav (his horse) arose from Samudra Manthan.

Ramana - re the doctrinal shift, it is a theory I have been building up. What follows is purely my theorizing, so read at your own risk :)

Barmer is to the south of the sand dunes, so visualize if you will a huge lake between Jaisalmer and Barmer. South of Barmer, past the Gujarat border, is a seasonal marsh. This will give you a geographic sense the area and tell you why it is so lightly defended by both sides. The most likely target of a thrust from Barmer would be Hyderabad. Hyderabad is more than a large pop center and an important Sindh city. It is the node where the two alternate routes NS to Karachi join. Sever it, and you have truly severed Pak in two. However, what is equally important is that Hyderabad is much farther from the border than RYK - this gives Pak a lot more breathing space when a massed IA attack towards Hbad is detected. Why do we want them to have more breathing space? So that the finger does not start inching towards the button so readily. The disadvantage of a proximate target like RYK is that any attack towards it will leave Pak with very little margin of tolerance, and the imperative to nuke the advancing column will be that much more stronger. An attack towards Hyderabad, on the other hand, will give them more time to reflect on their grim situation and cave in politically - hence, it may be a longer but "less escalatory" route to coercing a desired response from Pak.

So in a nuclear backdrop, attacking Hyderabad/Mirpur Khas (see map in url) will be more desireable. Also, if we ever want to repeat a Bangladesh in Sindh, a dash to Karachi will be called for.

Conversely, given that the target is located so deep within Pak, the logistics requirements on the attacking force will be exponentially greater. But again, there are signs (such as the Luni - Munabao BG conversion in this FY) that we are laying the groundwork to make this possible. We may not be there yet, but no one can accuse GoI of lack of persistence of vision.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/pakistan_pol96.jpg

So all I can say is that keep a sharp eye out on any related developments. We live in very interesting times.
Added later

Shiv yes, exercising in summer is a totally different ball game. But we started practicing for it last year - Poorna Vijay was also held around May. My article in BRM indicates some to the logistics required to pull this off.

eswarpr
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Apr 2002 12:31
Location: London, UK

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby eswarpr » 02 May 2002 01:59

In the link that Vikram put in, did you notice that PoK is marked as Azad Kashmir :mad:

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Y I Patel » 02 May 2002 02:40

Call me paranoid, but AN/TPQ37+41 Arty Div+BA ... I sense an Indoo conspiracy.

There was a cryptic note during Poorna Vijay that elements of an artillery division were integrated successfully with the blue force.

Raman
BRFite
Posts: 261
Joined: 06 Mar 2001 12:31
Location: Niyar kampootar onlee

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Raman » 02 May 2002 03:00

Vikram,

Do you think that this new artillery division will include self-propelled guns (i.e., Bhim), or this a towed artillery division?

++Rajesh

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50431
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby ramana » 02 May 2002 03:03

The Hindu: Army raising second artillery division

NEW DELHI MAY 1. The Indian Army is currently raising its second artillery division to ensure better deployment of this powerful fighting arm in the plains. The process began about two months ago and is expected to be completed soon. The new division will basically have medium guns, rockets, surveillance and target acquisition regiment and, possibly, missiles. It will be headquartered at Pune, say Defence Ministry sources.

While the 40th artillery division, India's sole `pure' artillery division, is deployed in the Northern Command, the 41st division is being raised in the Southern Command to provide a better punch in the Gujarat area. The idea of raising undiluted artillery divisions was proposed some time ago but it took shape only about five years ago with the formation of the 40th division. Incidentally, Pakistan is said to have embraced the concept earlier and to possess two or even three artillery divisions some of whose units were effectively used during the Kargil war. The two artillery divisions are expected to enable a quick switching of flanks to confuse the enemy as well as ensure better coordination by making optimum use of the resources in the plains where it is a battle-winning factor.
----------------------
The Hind Times: Army raising new artillery division

HT Correspondent
(New Delhi, May 1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Indian Army is reorganising its artillery assets by raising a new artillery division. This will be its second. It will be called the 41st Artillery Division, and will operationally function under the Southern Command. It is expected to be set up within a month, and will be headquartered at Pune.
So far, the Army has only the 40 Artillery Division. It functions under the Western Command, and is substantially attached to the Ambala-based 2 Corps, which is an offensive (strike) formation trained and equipped to invade enemy territory in the event of war.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman emphasised that the new artillery division "will have nothing to do with the Agni Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile".

He also clarified that no new artillery regiments (units) are being raised under 41 Artillery Division. "It merely involves the readjustment of artillery brigades. All that is being raised is the headquarters. The reserves will be brought under it," he claimed.

The move is expected to add punch to the Southern Command's firepower. Earlier, the bulk of the artillery resources were concentrated in the Western Command area. Besides the existing (40) Artillery Division, the Indian Army has nine Independent Artillery Brigades.

RS Jamboosarwala, Major General (Artillery), Southern Command, will head 41 Artillery Division.

Despite official claims that no new regiments are being raised, the proposal to considerably strengthen the Artillery arm is an advanced stage of being actualised.

pshah
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 1
Joined: 21 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby pshah » 02 May 2002 03:04

Speaking of Bhim, what exactly is its status? Is it undergoing field-trials, or is has government begun its production or what?

P.Shah

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Rudra » 02 May 2002 03:06

Have all the old Abott and Catapult SP guns been
retired ? i.e. at present IA has no SP guns ?

were these earlier attached within the strike corps' ?

Seems like we have a need for atleast 500 new SP guns.
No recent news of the soltam gun on tatra truck.

I dont think Bhim or any tracked SP gun is approved
or ordered. the israeli gun on truck is a lot cheaper
and simpler (no arjun engine, transmission to import).

People have objected to it being a truck and its
potential problems in the sand, but then how is
10 IA divs in the desert going to be supplied with
water,ammo,food,fuel and misc --> by long endless
convoys of trucks !! the army will likely wet lease
commercial trucks like in kargil to beef up the supply
chain. if Tata normal trucks can make it, then
a high-groundclearance and rugged low-pressure
truck like tatra should be comfortable.

we need huge numbers and we need them quickly and
cheaply. Bhim is too complex and expensive a system
for wide deployment.

Sunil
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 21 Sep 1999 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Sunil » 02 May 2002 03:25

given how public the entire poorna vijay thing has been.. it would not surprise me if it turned out that the 12 corps formations were now in the sukkur area.

Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Johann » 02 May 2002 03:31

Vikram, the fact that this new artillery division is being assigned to XII Corps lends a great deal of merit to your theory about the shift of focus towards Southern Command but I'm not sure whether we can assume that bifurcation is the goal here. You really have to take it further on this thread or email me, because now you've piqued my interest.

An airborne Brigade group drop is something that would fit in as well. Remember the equation for calculating drop zone size? Here we have terrain that is open enough and can in places pose challenges to mechanised forces. We shall just have to wait and see

Rudra
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 28 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Rudra » 02 May 2002 03:38

veterans pls excuse but the rest of you imperialist race-to-the-indus types might find
the following docs quite useful to read over a
period.

all are published US army manuals I found linked
from fas. goes into the details but life's like
that.

Division combat engineers field manual.
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/5-71-100/toc.htm

Cavalry (armour) operations
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/17-95/cont.htm

Infantry division operations
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/71-100-2/toc.htm

Sanjay Joshi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 20
Joined: 18 Oct 2001 11:31
Location: Mysore, India

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Sanjay Joshi » 02 May 2002 04:03

Whats a "War Game" technically? What does it involve and whats the idea of doing it?

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Y I Patel » 02 May 2002 04:26

Aha. I can sense a gathering of tribes here. :)

Johann I have seen no mention that 41 arty is being assigned to 12 corps - did you see that somewhere? All we know is that it is being assigned to Southern Command -

so 40 arty == western command == 2 corps ==> 41 arty == southern comand == 21 corps.

In other words, I would assume the arty div goes to 21 or whichever corps is assigned as SC strike corps.

An earlier post on AN/TPQ 37 mentions that two of these go per SATA batty. Per SBM's book chapter in BRM, I assume each strike corps will have a SATA batty. Or is that too less for a corps formation?

I do simplify things by assuming Hyderabad to be the target - one can design an offensive with an operational pause after a couple of days, in which case a shallower target may be assigned for the first phase. Here Mirpur Khas comes to mind...

An operational pause would serve political goals as well - kind of telling them look we have screwed you this much, and things will only get worse. And both Kargil as well as Op Parakram-I have shown that inspite of their bluster, Paks are pretty ameanable to blinking.

Finally, think really big - there's an amphib bde ready to liven things up on the coastline! That's where the navy comes in :)

advitya
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby advitya » 02 May 2002 04:46

I believe that the current Artillery Division is 30 Artillery Div. The new Division authorized is 40 Div.

GD:
The IA's catapults are still active! Very active!

Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Johann » 02 May 2002 05:41

Vikram, I mistyped - meant XXI

What I'm not sure yet is whether planners are envisioning a double envelopment, hammer or anvil, or main effort with secondary distractions. The nature of maneouver would make the objective clearer. An operation could for example aim to effectively destroy V corps as fighting force without actually advancing on the centres of population in the Indus delta, but the possibility would be perfectly clear to the Pak high command.

Wasnt the recently raised third Pak armoured division (T-80UDs) assigned to V corps? The Pakistanis must be feeling vulnerable there for a reason.

Does anyone have any idea about the current status of M-113 production in Pakistan?

I would imagine one STA battery organic to the armoured division, and another assigned to the Corps (that could be lent to the RAPID or Inf Div) would be closer to the ideal for an indian strike corps.

Umrao
BRFite
Posts: 547
Joined: 30 May 2001 11:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Umrao » 02 May 2002 06:00

folks>> What is the role of MPs
1) in these exercises

2) In battlefront what role do they have.

3) Do they have their own Lt. Gen / Maj Gen

4) do they form a corps by themselves? like EME/Signals/Engineers/AOC/ASC

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Y I Patel » 02 May 2002 07:44

SanjayJ war games and exercises are like dress rehersals for the real thing - the former are theoretical, while the latter are in a field setting. Exercises can be at various levels, in in the Indian setting, the largest ones (such as Brass Tacks) involve more than one corps. These are very rare. Corps level exercises involving 3-4 divisions (such as Poorna Vijay last year) are more common.

Jumrao MP perform pretty much the same roles as civilian police - they maintain law and order and investigate crimes on military installations, direct traffic (this is especially important when huge formations are moving in wartime or peacetime), etc. They have their own corps, but probably report to the Judge Advocate General.

Johann, what do you think of a two corps manoever from Barmer as a main thrust, supported by two major diversions: one armoured thrust somewhere in Punjab/Rajasthan, and one in J&K? To throw out some numbers, during the deployment post 12/13, LtGen Oberoi had an article that gave about 150 km as a corps frontage. This may have been deliberately misleading, so make what you will of it. I need to look up the distances, but IIRC Mirpur Khas is about 50-100 km, and Hyderabad is 200-250 km from the border. India has an excellent road and rail network in north Gujarat/ south Rajasthan that would feed the jump off points. SWAC headquarters are in Gandhinagar, and IA has a major logistics facility in Ahmedabad. This BTW is no state secret - Ahmedabad and its precursor cities such as Karnavati have been major political and trading centers for centuries because of their strategic location.

Air Assets (FW as well as rotary) will play a huge role in a desert setting. So if any numbers get published on IAF sorties during BA, please post them.

ehsmang
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 12 Nov 1999 12:31
Location: ndelhi
Contact:

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby ehsmang » 02 May 2002 13:30

the main paki rail / road n/w is on the eastern or western bank of Indus??

Bharat
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 48
Joined: 08 Mar 1999 12:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Bharat » 02 May 2002 18:26

I need some very basic info:-
How many guns are there in an arti division?
How many tanks are there in a tank regiment ?
What does an armoured division or brigade consist of?
How would you define a strike corps?(I mean what differentiates it from normal corps in terms of weapons)
Vikram,
An armoured thrust in J&K?
Is it feasible in the mountainous area ?
Can anyone update the status of Indian MLRS batteries?

Raj Singh
BRFite
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Raj Singh » 02 May 2002 19:20

Sunil Sainis

>The day we want to send a message to the USG, we may actually withdraw our forces from their current positions.

>Without us to tie down the 11 and the 12, there is little chance of the US being able to operate in the FATA without serious obstructions. Please understand the US can bomb whatever it likes in the FATA but if their troops start having to engage uniformed Pakistani troops in the area, the conflict will widen in its scope. That is an outcome that i sense the bulk of the powers that be are not really willing to deal with at this point. Basically `Wendy's' Pakistan Burger sells for exactly 99 cents..

Am I right in inferring from the above that not only US has consented but also has played role in the deployment of Indian forces at the border?

Ashok Vyas
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Ashok Vyas » 02 May 2002 20:16

Is there any reason to believe that we might run into a less hostile rural population in Sindh (in a scenario where we are attacking Hyderabad-Karachi) as opposed to Punjab/ POK, or can we expect the population to consistently resist the hated Indian army?

If not, would that be a consideration in choosing a Southern region for a thrust? Maybe not strictly a question for this thread but is anti-India sentiment equal in all parts of Pakistan?

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Parakram II: all services excercise on western front

Postby Y I Patel » 02 May 2002 21:31

Bharat

An armoured thrust in J&K?
Is it feasible in the mountainous area ?
No, certainly not. Maybe my wording was ambiguous. I intended to say "an armoured thrust somewhere in Punjab/North Rajasthan and another (non-armoured) thrust in JKL". Of course, an armoured thrust is possible in southern Jammu, if IA so desires.

Ashok
Stretegic considerations and a terrain that supports armoured thrusts would be a prime consideration; the hostility or friendliness of the locals would be secondary. Of course, if the intent is to support a Sindhi rebellion against Pak, then we could use Sindhi hostility (to Pak) to advantage. The armoured thrust doctrine most certainly should not consider friendly locals as a basic assumption in designing the main effort.

In any case, let me step back and say that at this point the southward shift is just my theory. We do not even know yet if Op BA is going to be held in Barmer. In fact, financial considerations of moving huge formations around may dictate that the exercises be held in their deployed areas - in which case we may see the corps manoevering separately from one another. Even so, there is the exciting possibility that two of the strike corps have been concentrated in one area (Bikaner-Ganganagar). If that turns out to be true, Op BA will still be a watershed event.

Finally, let me to point out how symbolic of India it is that in these troubled times, a Gujarati-origin muslim (Maj Gen Jamboosarwala) gets to raise IA's new arty division. More power to you, Gen J.


Return to “Strategic & Security Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest