Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Raj Singh
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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Raj Singh » 28 Oct 2003 23:11

Shiv Ji

Originally posted by John Umrao
.
Shivji>> Very interesting episode of bullet in the buttock emerges left handed.

questions.
Reminds me of the 'magic bullet' which killed JFK, and it was questioned later on, if such a magic bullet exist.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby TSJones » 29 Oct 2003 01:32

AH yes, where were we? Let me seee.. oh, well as Donnie Rumsfeld was saying, the RMA is a combo of the old and new. So it is not an appropriate conclusion that the IA can't afford it. Rather, how much of it do you want?

Let me see, the IA should be after the following items with the corresponding tactics applied:

1. All radios linked, infantry commander, jet jockys, artillary. Naturally, encrypted.

2. GPS and laser pointers to all infantry squads.

3. Goes w/o saying, bombs and arty capable of GPS and/or laser.

4. How about getting some laser designation for the RPGs? Is that too damned hard to do? Great against bunkers, etc.

5. Night vision goggles for all listen posts, look outs, etc.

6. Combined arms cavalry units. Is that too much to ask? I'm not talking about a whole division. Just a regiment with proper transportation and logistics. Try it out, who knows, ya may like it.

Sci-fi.

7. Intermediate range missiles with with GPS and laser. Why not? Make 'em hyper speed.

8. Squad level missiles that can handle any tank or bunker up to a mile away. Why make the squad wait around for supporting arms?

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby TSJones » 29 Oct 2003 01:40

And I would like to point out that the US maintains an f-16 24x7 over afghanistan and also iraq just in case somebody gets into trouble and needs a helping hand. Loaded for bear. Just a little thing we do to say we care.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Rudra » 29 Oct 2003 01:48

8. doesnt stuff like Javelin, Milan-II permit that?

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby TSJones » 29 Oct 2003 01:53

Ok the javelin with a range of 2500 meters but the reason why I put it under sci-fi is that I never saw it deployed in Iraq I don't think. It may be a vapor-ware. Hell-fires were deployed but I don't they are a squad level weapon.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Y I Patel » 29 Oct 2003 02:15

RMA or not, the fact remains that several new technologies have now come into play that should cause a significant revision in warfighting doctrines. The most significant of these changes are not so much in tactical fundamentals as they are in the way units are handled by higher formations.

RMA would come to naught if people are not equipped to deal with the real import of techological innovations. This is not just about training - a significant consideration has to be individual workload. A person can handle only so much information/stimulus, especially in a fluid and high-stress combat situation. Merely better training will not be the answer - there will be a necessity to consider changes in formation staffing structures. Specialist units at brigade level and above may need to be augmented substantially, as well.

The really interesting things to discuss, if we can, would be how formation staffs are structured, and operational roles of individuals within those staffs. In other words, should we think of fighting a 21st century war with a 19th century orbat/TOE?

Another thing to consider is that modern wars are increasingly about taking "head shots" at command and control nodes. So these need to be made more survivable. A network is no good if it can be paralyzed by bringing down a single node.

PS
Ray sahab, I had sent you an email recently. Is your old account still active? Mine is, so please drop me a line at your convenience.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Rudra » 29 Oct 2003 02:20

TSJ, javelines were used. some problems were encountered in adverse visibility. but they work -- CNN had footage of marines firing one at a bunker.
swedish Bill is also a similar top-attack weapon.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby TSJones » 29 Oct 2003 02:32

An air force specialist is called for here especially down at the infantry company level. This has since been established by the US. SOP.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Amitabh » 29 Oct 2003 03:48

Originally posted by TSJones:
6. Combined arms cavalry units. Is that too much to ask? I'm not talking about a whole division. Just a regiment with proper transportation and logistics. Try it out, who knows, ya may like it.
Been there, done that, old chap.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Joeqp » 29 Oct 2003 05:15

<I>The timeline is as follows :
In 98 I can confirm a non COIN unit already had GPS .
These were imported in all probability.
BEL made its first protoptypes for the army,af then and had them trialled.Based on feedback the improved ones were ready by 2000. Today BEL and tata guys both manufacture GPS sets a plenty and they are available.Bulk GPS procurement is hence entirely Indian while sufficient units were imported before.</I>

Nitin, I'll take your word for it.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2003 05:46

Originally posted by John Umrao:

questions.

can we assume the bullet to be travelling in avery viscous medium once it enters the body?
Assuming the inside tissue is soft and can be compressed as bullet travels.

Can we assume that the bullet once inside the viscous medium is not dis integrating into particles (assuming the bullet to be rigid body)
and could be deflected by bone/harder tissue if the angle of bullet entry is shallow (tangential)?

It can be safe to assume that there is a (co)relation between the bullet velocity and the clean exit of the bullet from the body?
Jumrao I guess the human body behaves like nothing other than a tough rubber bag of water (and some oil perhaps), being composed of 70% water and having a specific gravity that is just above that of water or so (depending on fat content)

A high velocity projectile (I use this expression because the highest velocity projectiles that hit soldiers are probably not bullets, but shrapnel from bombs/shells) enters the body and the transfer of energy causes a shockwave that pushes body tissues radially outwards away from the point of entry and tears open a big cavity several times the diameter of the projectile. That means that even if a 5.56 mm bullet enters, blood vessels, nerves, tendons and organs are ripped, shred and torn apart in a sphere for many centimeters beyond the 5.56 mm hole. A bullet entering the liver would not make a clean hole - but would "explode" the liver - making "keema" out of it.

Secondarily, the expanding cavity caused by the entering bullet sucks in air with bits of clothing, dirt, soil, dung and whatever is near the entry wound. Sunsequent collapse of the cavity may cause a spray of blood and tissue to be spat out of an entry/exit wound

After this initial effect, what the bullet does depends on Allah's will:

1)It may remain properly oriented along its logitudinal axis and pass clean through

2)It may tumble and expend all its energy breaking, tearing and ripping everything that it encounters, and change direction as it tumbles.

3)It may hit bone and fragment or get deflected

4)It may fragment even without hitting bone.

Velocity and "clean exit? I guess clean exit depends more on the path than the velocity. Even low velocity bullets may pass through calf or bicep, but it takes a 7.62/.303 @ 800 m/sec to pass from butt to brain and out.

Many weird stories of bullet injuries exist - but one of the weirdest ones I think appeared in Reader's Digest ages ago. A bulllet apparently took off a soldier's testicle and then hit a girl standing nearby in the belly.

Both recovered but the unmarried (World War 1 or 2 morality here) girl became pregnant. It was surmised that testicular tissue from the soldier was carried by the bullet to lodge in the girl's tummy near her ovaries and got her pregnant.

What an excuse :eek:

Anyhow the two apparently got married.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2003 06:02

I am just wondering, I mean, seriously speaking, is there anything REALLY new in the concept "revolution in military affairs"

Let me explain:

I am only an armch-air marshal, but it occurs to me that battles are won by:

1)knowing where your enemy is
2)knowing his strength
3)knowing his weaknesses
4)applying more force than the enemy can withstand
5)using surprise
6)fighting when he cannot fight - eg night/bad terrain

Isn't RMA merely the application of modern video, communication and processing technology to achieving the above, age-old ends?

Knowing more about your enemy requires recce, sats, UAVs, elint, NVG, IR detection.

Applying firepower can mean that youhave a humongous army. But it can also indicate a "lean and mean" army, which can bring diffeerent weapons to bear on a particular area very quickly. The infantryman should be able to receive very quick help from mortar fire, heavy artillery or helicoter bornes firepower, or heli-borne injection of forces, including boats/armored vehicles etc as they are needed.

Figting where and when you enemy cannot fight essentiall means fighting at night, and precision attacks of enemy forces resting/moving at night.

Someone tell me if my view of RMA is wrong

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby ehsmang » 29 Oct 2003 07:39

Shiv, Your idea about RMA is spot on.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby ehsmang » 29 Oct 2003 09:31

While the concepts of RMA , NCW are well known , I think we are still far away from it.

I mean, in the recent encounter near Akhnoor bridge the operations were halted for the night and resumed in the morning ( so much for tempo of operations). I think we have not even reached the stage from where RMA can take off. We have partially reached paltform centric warfare ( and not even touched NCW). Where are the night sights, HTTI's, sensors?? and we are talking of networking of sensors.

What suprises me that inspite of being fairly competent in IT and other skills , the pace of introduction of new tech in the services is fairly slow. I sincerely feel that there is increased scope for civilian / military interaction & cooperation.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby debjani » 29 Oct 2003 16:33

Shiv,

I didn't want to post such long posts. Hopefully, this will clarify what appeared as gobbledygook in that Paragraph.

**********************************************

Rudra Singha,

Your post:

'china has little or no RMA other than a few showpiece 'fist units' - scads of pics on internet fora carefully posed.
if we need to find role models lets atleast look at the real ones.'
************************************************

There is a proverb - Look Before you Leap.

Hopefully, the stuff below will curb the flippancy as also the perfunctory dismissals that signature your posts.

If this is not moving towards RMA, what is?

If what the Report to the US Congress is something you feel is flippant, then you are correct. If not, it is a wake up call.

We are in a serious discussion; at least I would like to think so.

************************************************************************

Report to Congress Pursuant to FY 2002 National Defence Authorisation Act , ANNUAL REPORT ON THE MILITARY POWER OF THE PEOPLES' REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

The recent development in China's military power includes:-

1. Doctrine of Pre-emption and Surprise: moving towards the goal of surprise, deception and shock effect in the opening phase of the campaign.
2. Military Budget. In March 2002, China announced a 17.6% or $ 3 billion increase in spending, bringing the publicly reported total to $ 20 billion. Total spending is closer to $ 65 bullion.
3. Improvement in Training and Joint Operations. Beijing's military training exercises increasingly focussed on the US as an adversary.
4. The PLA's 'Three Attacks and Three Defences' AD training concentrates on attacking stealth aircraft, cruise missiles and helicopters, while defending against precision strikes, electronic warfare and enemy reconnaissance.
5. In 2001, PLA training emphasised maritime and amphibious operations, integrating conventional ground units with marines, airborne and special operation forces.
6. Missile Development. China has approximately 350 short range ballistic missiles (SRBMs) already in its deployed inventory, increasing by 50 missiles per year.
7. The number of conventional ballistic missiles deployed opposite Taiwan is expected to increase substantially over the next several years.
8. China is replacing the CSS-4 Mod 1 ICBM with longer range CSS-4 Mod 2. China also is replacing all of its approximately 20 CSS-4 Mod 1 missiles and developing two follow on extended range version of DF 31: a solid propellant mobile ICBM and its solid propellant submarine launched ballistic missiles.

Air Power.

1. China has acquired Su 30 MKK fighter aircraft from Russia. China is also producing Su 27 front line fighter aircraft. Both have been integrated into operational units.
2. PLAAF and PLA Naval Air Force {PLANAF} tactical forces also are developing and acquiring Precision Guided Munitions [PGMs]. The Su 30 is equipped with Anti Radiation Missiles [ARMs].
3. China has reportedly developed electronic warfare variants of several of its larger aircraft, and may have several programmes underway to deploy new stadoffand escort jammers on bombers, transports, tactical aircraft and UAV platforms.
4. In 1999, China introduced an AEW aircraft, the Y-8 AEW. China is also looking to acquire the A 50 MAINSTAY AWACS aircraft from Russia.
5. China is upgrading air facilities along the Taiwan Straits.
6. PLANAF fighters and tanker aircraft successfully transferred fuel during aerial operations over South China Sea in April 2000.

Naval Forces

1. Naval enhancements include greater familiarisation and crew proficiency on the recently acquire platforms and associated weapons systems, as well as increasing in the PLA Navy [PLAN] maritime surveillance capability.
2. PLAN is improving the capability to deploy submarines on extended patrols and outfitting surface ships with more capable air defence assets and more lethal anti ship cruise missiles.
3. China has replaced its WW II vintage landing ships with newer indigenous ships. In addition, China has a large fleet of about 600 military landing crafts, which could be used for ship to shore operations. China has a large civilian merchant fleet that could be pressed into service to support amphibious operations.
4. The PLAN's first Russian made Sovremenny Class guided missile destroyer arrived in China in February 2002. China has signed a contract for two additional such ships and could acquire additional Russian made major surface combatants.
5. China has produced a diesel electric SONG submarine, the first Chinese submarine to have a skewed propeller. The SONG also is the first Chinese submarine designed to carry YJ - 82, China's first encapsulated anti ship cruise missile (ASCM), capable of launching from a submerged submarine.
6. China has purchased from Russia the KILO SS, one of the quietest diesel electric submarines in the world. Armed with such weapons as the wire guided Test - 7 IME heavy torpedo and the 53 - 65KE wake homing torpedo, the KILO provides Beijing with previously unavailable quieting and weapons technology.
7. China will acquire a new nuclear powered submarine class, the Type 093 Class SSN, which carried wire guided, wake homing torpedoes and cruise missiles.

Air Defence and Detection

1. The SA- N-7 will provided by Russia provides the most capable short range surface to air defence system for the PLAN ion the near term. Technology from the SA-N-7 probably could assist with the development of an indigenous naval Surface to Air system. Over the next ten years, PLAN is likely to develop a naval missile roughly equivalent to the shore based SA 10s purchased from Russia.
2. The land based version of the long range HQ 9 SAM is in development and probably will incorporate technology from the Russian S 10 medium range SAM. China may produce a naval variant of the HQ-9 incorporating Western technology.

Land Forces and Armour

1. During the past year, the PLA ground forces revealed incremental improvements, evidenced by and increase in training tempo and equipment upgrades.
2. The PLA has begun a programme to upgrade its Type 59 main battle tanks, as well as maintain over 1000 tanks already equipped with 105mm guns.
3. Several new or updated armour assets are gradually making their way, to include a light tank, an amphibious tank, and a amphibious armoured personnel carrier.
4. Production of Type 96 tank continues, with wq800 by 2005.
5. The army has shrunk from about 100 divisions to approximately 50 with many of them downsizing to brigades, freeing resources for modernisation.
6. The PLA has improved its amphibious attack capabilities in recent years and is steadily expanding its capabilities to transport ground forces by air.

Command and Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence (C4I)

1. China has steadily improved its C4I capabilities and maybe negotiating with Belarussia, Agat, to produce C4I software and equipment capable of performing joint battle management.

Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance

1. China's procurement of new space systems, AWACs and long range UAV and over the horizon radar will enhance its ability to detect, monitor, and target naval activities in the Western Pacific.
2. China may have as many as three over the horizon sky wave radar systems.

Information Warfare

1. To improve its skill base, China has been recruiting specialists via its reserve officer in order to design, comprehend, and execute a full spectrum information operation/ information (IO/IW) campaign.

Electronic Warfare

1. China's EW efforts are focussed on technology and design development. Accomplished through cooperation with Western companies and by reverse engineering. China's newer designs show improvements over the older ones.
2. China is procuring state of art technology to improve its intercepts, direction finding and jamming capabilities. It may also have been developing jammers, which could be used against Global Positioning Systems {GPA} receivers.

Laser Weapons

1. China is pursuing a robust research and development programme for laser weapons. In 1999 the Chinese displayed a probable laser based anti tank guided missile [ATGM] countermeasure on its Type 90 II tanks.

Radio Frequency [RF] Weapons

1. Chinese scientists have written about that China probably has in place a programme to develop explosively drive RF weapons technology that potentially could be used in missile warheads or aircraft bombs.

Space warfare

1. Beijing may have acquired High Energy Laser Equipment that could be used in the development of ground based anti satellite [ASAT} weapons.
2. In July 2001, Moscow and Beijing signed a 5 year space cooperation agreement pursuant to which Russia and China will establish special departments on joint development of a regional missile defence system. China and Russia will set up cooperation organs to develop a new generation high tech weapon and equipment with funding up to $ 500 million.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Rudra » 29 Oct 2003 17:27

Ray thats is a maximalist listing of all current, future and past PRC projects - some may not even exist outside the fevered imaginations of neo-con wolves.
they have invested a lot of $$ in airforce and strategic missiles, but thats not RMA.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Umrao » 29 Oct 2003 20:14

Also all the so called experts who testify in front congressional committes are motiviated and heavily vested in certain fundings.

They will peddle or market their knowledge to maximize their uitility.

Example:
the higly inflated view of the soviet military capabilty to fund star wars

The highly inflated capabilities of Afghan Mujahadeen.

The higly inflated capability of Milosavic.

The most recent highly inflated view of Saddam in GW 1 and GW 2 and the comic episode of Weapons of Mass deception.

SO the Chinese RMA capabilities listed above for a congressional briefing is 3 to 4 x of what the PRC is capable of at this time.

It does not in any way mean that Chinese would not attempt or visualize such RMA capabilities.

Also immidiately after POK II there were whole range of reports saying that India has developed dial a yield bomb with range for 20 Kt to 200 Kt
Fission fusion device, then there were reports that Reactor grade U bombs that India can produce in 100 if not in thousands. This was the view of the anti proliferation Jihadis in Uncles court.

Then the wallace and co guys who be little India saying that fusion was a fizzle, because their audience ( or they are on the pay roll of CIA psy ops) so as to confuse Indians and also comfort the CHinese.

SO the charade goes on , Truth is hard to come by even under oath, only facts are blurted out as truth nothing but complete truth.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Anaath » 29 Oct 2003 20:44

A little bit of paranoia among us Indians about the capabilities of our adversaries is a good thing (that need not detract from the good counter-psy-ops work done by certain BRF gurus :) in various web fora). If the PLA is too distasteful as a role model, we could substitute the PLA with the RMA-obsessed armed forces of the most powerful democracy in the world.

There are several inter-linked issues in this debate that make it difficult to maintain focus:

• IA’s need for general technology upgradation, with a maximal emphasis on sourcing from India’s own technical/ industrial base
• The attendant need for new tactics, techniques, procedures and training
• The impact of the above on force structure and recruitment
• The Indian Armed Forces’ evolving approach to joint warfare in different echelons

Our ability to leverage RMA in the battlefield in any meaningful manner would assume that our policy-makers have managed to find optimal solutions to

• Inducting new technologies
• Developing tactics for their usage
• Modifying recruiting and training accordingly
• Perfecting all-arms and joint warfare in the new environment

In effect, we need a real Transformation of our armed forces. Given past patterns, it is likely that we will accomplish this Transformation gradually and without too much fuss.

Since RMA assumes technology to be the principal driver, it might be best to define distinct sub-RMAs driven by developments in Communications, Situational Awareness, Precision-Munitions, Stealth and so on.

If this thread can come up with the top two or three transformational technologies for the IA(and the IA alone) in the next decade, it would have accomplished something worthwhile. Then the debate can progress to tactics and force development.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby debjani » 29 Oct 2003 21:40

Singha,

Have you anything better in so far as info on the PRC is concerned to offer?

There has to be some baseline even if exaggerated. It is better to err on the positive side than be smug in an aura of fond delusions.

They put the man in space. I reckon we all must be hallucinating when the reports were so ominous.

Given your optimism [commendable] your posts get us all the way to Karachi. Yet, it is sad we had silly guys leading the acutals and they floundered at Naya Chor etc.

Further, since as per you that is not RMA [indeed, they are but tools], I would be delighted to learn what exactly is RMA and the process to achieve the same. Thanks in anticipation.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby daulat » 29 Oct 2003 21:46

we are missing the strategic posturing against each of our primary foes in guiding our RMA doctrines (atleast on this thread!)

against the PLA, are we thinking in terms of containment only or defensive deterrence or offensive deterrence or pure offense along Ladakh and Arunachal or say even through Nepal? Each strategy has different technical implications - all have a major if not dominant air dimensions, some have more air-ground integration than others

against PLAN its more clear cut - stay out of our waters in 3D - be very very careful anywhere else in the IOR coz we can get you when we choose

except TSP we have no other conventional or strategic (military) threat

with TSP we are forced down the US style overwhelming application of force route - with major air-ground integration. We should focus on paralysis of the enemy prior to any engagement on the ground; no need to lose lives just because we have the numbers to absorb the shock - they'll be needed for post victory handing out of aid and re-education to the poor huddled masses of the TSP'ians

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Rudra » 29 Oct 2003 23:43

Ray, I decline to join issue with you over what
is the real status of RMA (if any) in the PLA/AF/N.
There are few if any reliable reports in the public space on what they are upto. and your unfriendly attitude doesnt help matters either.

you have an easy route out, compare to someone whos clearly farther up the food chain - like uk, france or usa.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby member_201 » 30 Oct 2003 00:11

Let us please stick to the issue at hand --> RMA in the Indian Army. Thank You.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Kakkaji » 30 Oct 2003 00:33

Rudra:

In this rare instance, I disagree with you. If we are talking about RMA for the Indian Army, then I think USA, France, and UK are less relevant to us than PRC.

I am often surprised when BRFites compare the Indian military's technological progress with that of US/UK/France/Cannada. These are all rich, technologically advanced countries, with no threats on their own borders, and with a shortage of willing military manpower.

Given our current capital/technology/HR base, and given the nature of threats our military faces, I think that the two militaries that face similar situations are China and Russia. While we should study and learn from tech advances in the US/UK militaries, IMHO we should carefully look at Russian and Chinese militaries to see how they are absorbing the RMA concepts and tailoring them to fit within their resources/capabilities.

And I don't think the PRC military is technologically inept. Right since early 80's, when China started on the path of liberalization and modernization, military reform was one of the four reforms that Deng stated as his goal. Given that they have been at it, even though secretively, for over 20 years, and given the progress they have achieved in other areas, I would think they have achieved significant technological advances in their military capability. I don't think they are Mao's rag-tag army any more.

Just my two cents.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2003 06:11

Originally posted by Ray:
Singha,

Have you anything better in so far as info on the PRC is concerned to offer?

There has to be some baseline even if exaggerated. It is better to err on the positive side than be smug in an aura of fond delusions.
I guess Ray is right in a way, and that is why I started the digression about the PRC armed forces.

The direction in which RMA is going with regard to the US and NATO is quite clear. The question is the aplicabilityof that sort of technology to low to medium tech armed forces operating in different environments and what sort of technologies are most easily adaptable. A study of what Chini log may be doing would be a useful indicator.

"General reading" seems to suggest that RMA for any arny is a HUGE HUGE area and the stuff that is appearing in popular sci mags is mind boggling.

Examples:
1)Uniforms: high tech materials that blend with the background to make the soldier invisible. Material that heat up or cool off depending on environmental temperature. Materials that offer protection against injury and also constrict selectively to apply pressure on a wound to minimize blood loss.

2)Infantry weapons: built in night vision.IR imaging, laser aiming, lightweight, better reliability.

3)Headgear: protective, built in imaging devices, goggles that offer a "HUD" type battle picture telling the soldier where the enemy is and where friendly forces are.

4)Smart imaging/comm equipment with infantrymen, vehicles and UAVs feeding a central monitoring station that generates an exact picture of the battle area superimposed on a 3-D image of terrain that can be beamed back to forces in battle to appear on their goggles/screens.

If you compare the resources of various nations it is obvious that most of these technologies will be absorbed by the US army as soon as they appear to be feasible.

But what of the IA?

For example, smart materials that heat up or cool down depending on outside temp may be a great idea, even if we cannot generate the funds for "invisibility uniforms". What a nation likeChina does is an indicator of which technology may be easier and less expensive to adopt, and also an indicator of what we should be doing.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Rudra » 30 Oct 2003 06:16

if you want well-trained tier-II armed forces I submit turkey , greece, s.korea and japan would be good to study. they dont have a community of BSers out 24x7 on the internet so its might be easier to see where they stand.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2003 07:35

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
if you want well-trained tier-II armed forces I submit turkey , greece, s.korea and japan would be good to study. they dont have a community of BSers out 24x7 on the internet so its might be easier to see where they stand.
You may be right about the bulsh1tting but RS there is a serious problem in comparing armed forces of amall nations with relatively developed economies and who form part of the cold war ally group with huge nations, needing development over huge areas, who cannot depend on an inflow of technology from "cold war allies"

That is where a China comparison becomes relevant. Small countries like Korea and Japan will always buy stuff off the shelf and have the US supplying tech withut a second thought.

For India, goods bought off the shelf are often used to turn the screw on India. So don't let your irritation with China's bullsh1tting blind you to the fact that India and China share many of the same problems.

China may be gearing up to fight a Taiwan equipped with real goodies, just like India has had to gear up to fight a Pakistan with real goodies in the past.

You also knwo damn well that what China does not say is as impiortant as what they say. The article posted by Ray says a lot of the stuff we hear about the PLAAF and PLAN. What about the grunt? The article says nothing. Which means that if China is doing anything, it is not telling. It may be doing bugger all, but we don't know.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Kakkaji » 30 Oct 2003 07:47

After continuously fighting insurgency in J&K over the last 15 years, and a mini-war in Kargil 4 years ago, our frontline forces have only recently begun receiving bulletproof jackets. They wear heavy steel-rimmed Patkas for head protection because Kevlar helmets, which even tier II armies have had for a while, are not yet available to them. They scale mountains with cr@ppy shoes. And we're talking about 'invisibility uniforms'!

'Heat and Cool' suits for men who have often been rushed into high-altitude combat without adequate winter clothing. Defense Minister has to personally intervene to make the Babus move the file on acquisition of snowmobiles. MPs make a scandal out of nowhere so that aluminum caskets lie in godowns while the bodies of martyrs stink and putrefy en route when they are sent home in makeshift wooden caskets! :mad:

Get real guys! Forget about matching the equipment of US, UK, France and Canada. Just give our boys what the Chinese soldiers have, and they will thank their ungrateful country!

Sorry for the whine, but the gap between what the BRfers are discussing, and what our boys have and are likely to get, has really set me off today.

shiv
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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2003 09:38

Originally posted by RajeevT:
After continuously fighting insurgency in J&K over the last 15 years, and a mini-war in Kargil 4 years ago, our frontline forces have only recently begun receiving bulletproof jackets. They wear heavy steel-rimmed Patkas for head protection because Kevlar helmets, which even tier II armies have had for a while, are not yet available to them. They scale mountains with cr@ppy shoes. And we're talking about 'invisibility uniforms'!

'Heat and Cool' suits for men who have often been rushed into high-altitude combat without adequate winter clothing. Defense Minister has to personally intervene to make the Babus move the file on acquisition of snowmobiles. MPs make a scandal out of nowhere so that aluminum caskets lie in godowns while the bodies of martyrs stink and putrefy en route when they are sent home in makeshift wooden caskets! :mad:

Get real guys! Forget about matching the equipment of US, UK, France and Canada. Just give our boys what the Chinese soldiers have, and they will thank their ungrateful country!

Sorry for the whine, but the gap between what the BRfers are discussing, and what our boys have and are likely to get, has really set me off today.
Despite the rant, that is a good post so I quote it in full.

I keep hearing that the Inian Navy, in its own quiet way, is involved in RMA, and the air Force's attempts at RMA are announced from the rooftops.

But what about the IA? What does the Indian Amy think of RMA? Where does the IA stand on "RMA thinking"

Is there an Indian Army "wishlist" that non-military peopel like us can look at and then lobby the babus to move their a$$es?

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby daulat » 30 Oct 2003 13:30

guys - we are still ranting on about supply side issues; we need to focus on the demand side first - and only then can we judge what flavour of RMA should guide our supply side

comparisons with tier 1 rich nations is indeed a waste of time

who is the foe?
how do they go to war?
what makes them work?
what can stop them?
what can break them?
what can rout them?

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby srai » 30 Oct 2003 14:00

Originally posted by shiv:
But what about the IA? What does the Indian Amy think of RMA? Where does the IA stand on "RMA thinking"

Is there an Indian Army "wishlist" that non-military peopel like us can look at and then lobby the babus to move their a$$es?
Here's a start!

In Nahan, Army gets its cutting edge

A few weeks after Gen N C Vij took over as the army chief, he sent out a letter asking for a comprehensive review of the special forces, their training and the on-hold modernisation. The immediate beneficiary of the initiative was the Special Forces Training Wing. Within months, the Wing was upgraded to a full-fledged school, declared a category A establishment and placed under the Army’s Training Command (Artrac). In fact as Vice Chief of staff, Vij was in favour of [color="green"]modernising the force and then expand in 2007</font> when the objectives of the 10th plan had been achieved.

Eight months later, the Special Forces Training School, tucked away in the Himalayan foothills on the Himachal-Haryana border, is taking its first tentative steps in that direction. It helps that Artrac’s GOC-in-C Gen J J Singh commanded a strike corps during Operation Parakram and is [color="green"]aware of the strategic role that Special Forces can play in conflicts, conventional as well as unconventional</font>.

Today Col V B Shinde, commandant of the School is busy planning a host of new courses that complement the proposed modernisation. ‘‘Even if we were imparting advanced skill to the special forces men, there is no standardised training for the Special Forces officers like the special forces courses in the US or UK. Some day the school could fill that gap ’’ says a retired senior general. At a point in time, it has [color="green"]also been proposed that the conventional infantry’s ghataks are also trained at the school to ensure a standardisation of the army’s special operations skills</font>.

In the meantime, non-commissioned officers (NCOs) trooping into the School are picking up skills unheard of a few months ago. Through brainstorming sessions and exercises in the School grounds, they [color="green"]learn to be combat leaders in battle and polish their ability to plan and execute operations on their own</font>. ‘‘It makes the <u>teams independent</u> and increases the potency of the special forces’ NCOs to cause damage to the enemy,’’ says an officer.

[color="green"]New surveillance techniques, target designation and other related skills</font> are also finding a pride of place in the School.

Under the aegis of Artrac, NCOs are also travelling to key establishments to understand the strategic role they would have to play when the balloon goes up. [color="green"]‘‘If they have to hit strategic targets, they must know what is where. Site visits help them appreciate the importance of particular structures and establishments and help them identify vulnerable points that could cripple the enemy,’’</font> says an officer. Interestingly, if the [color="maroon"]<u>proposed Special Aviation squadron</u></font> for the Special Forces comes through, the school will have a larger role to play. Alongside a rigorous fitness regime, the new breed of soldiers at Nahan are also expanding their intellectual horizons, key to the success of any special forces team. The ‘students’ discuss and analyse sharpshooting skills to gauge [color="green"]how to cause the maximum damage through minimum effort</font>.

The Special Forces School is also looking at a substantial increase in funds; the Wing, so long, received an annual training grant


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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby debjani » 31 Oct 2003 09:21

Having attempted to explain RMA and then spelling out the Pakistan and China scenario, the author of the same artcile in PINNACLE attempts to analyse the Indian Imperatives in Future Comabat Milieu.

*************************************************
India's Imperatives in Future Combat Milieu

The future battlefield has the following challenges:

· Preparedness. It mandates the reduction of the force generation time, which is currently tardy. Mobilisation has to include strategic airlift or a methodology that ensures a correct poising of forces before the onset of open hostilities.

· Battlefield Tempo. This axiomatically can alone be achieved if force generation in the tactical realm is swift, concentrated and in the correct combat mix, free of logistical encumbrances and wieldy axis of maintenance.

· Battlefield Dominance. It can be achieved through a flexible man-machine mix, the mix being dependant on the situation at that moment and the elements of the mix retaining the flexibility to detach and be applied swiftly elsewhere. Or, having the wherewithal to degrade, defeat or neutralise the enemy activity to a timeframe where own forces can be applied to overwhelm the enemy with minimum combat application, relying more on dislocating, demoralising and shocking the enemy into submission.

· Dispersal and Convergence Capable. The nuclear scenario dictates the capability to be widespread and yet rapidly convergence capable.

· Discarding Archaic Modes. Obviously, the graduated application for 'battle progression syndrome' in such a scenario is of a 'dinosauric vintage'.

· Simultaneity. Simultaneity in addressing the 'centre of gravity' [which does not mean the enemy's source of strength, but rather its critical vulnerability]. The aim must be to win the campaign rather than the battles. This would mean losing a few battles [if unavoidable] en route. For the greater goal of winning the campaign. Hence, there has to be mental resilience in the event some of the battles are lost with the aim furthered as a result of it.

· Stand Off Capability. Robotic substitution in military and combat applications is a must for accomplishing missions that are dangerous and time consuming through the conventional mode.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby davidn » 31 Oct 2003 16:14

with the recent reports of India signing onto the Galileo project for $300 mil euros, what affect will that have on current GPS equipment? can they work with both signals, or will new equipment need to be brought in?

Since i suspect the latter, is it possible to create a unit that can read both signals? Or will all units switch over to the Galileo? From what i understand the Galileo is far more accurate than the GPS anyhows.

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031030141843.8xjyvw08

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby ehsmang » 31 Oct 2003 16:22

RajeevT,

I fully endorse your post and that is what I alluded to in my previous post.

Like India which has islands of riches in midst of poverty, the Army also has islands of high tech in midst of things that you pointed out. However, I am also of the view that first the real basics need to be addressed ( I mean in one of the Kargil videos , you can clearly see the soldier going up the mountain with a bag which is advertising some 'Sher Bidi '. The kind of bags you would see a poor man carry to the railway station!!!)

That however does not dilute the relevance of the thread.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby debjani » 31 Oct 2003 19:02

Originally posted by Y I Patel:

PS
Ray sahab, I had sent you an email recently. Is your old account still active? Mine is, so please drop me a line at your convenience.
No, I haven't got it. The email id is still valid.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby debjani » 31 Oct 2003 19:06

Originally posted by davidn:
with the recent reports of India signing onto the Galileo project for $300 mil euros, what affect will that have on current GPS equipment? can they work with both signals, or will new equipment need to be brought in?

Since i suspect the latter, is it possible to create a unit that can read both signals? Or will all units switch over to the Galileo? From what i understand the Galileo is far more accurate than the GPS anyhows.

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031030141843.8xjyvw08
I tried to get to the URL quite afew times. It didn't work.

Would it be possible for you to post whats written?

Thanks.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby TSJones » 01 Nov 2003 13:10

Ray Ray, the link works now.

Again, my opinion is, how much of this do you want? You've got to start creating the systems to add to or bolt on to the dumb bombs. That ain't cheap. Then you've got to ask yerself, do I wanna wait for Galileo or do I wanna start now?

India will probably opt to wait for Galileo seeing as how the US military can alter the GPS signal for its own purposes.

But unified communications is probably where India can do something NOW. Where is she on this matter? Has a program been designated and budget requests submitted?

Also I am bothered by the fact that I have not read of any criticism of the India Army over Kargil that is written by the Indian Army *command structure*. Lessons learned? Yeah, I've read some of them and it looks like to me all dealing with politics. How about operationally? Somebody give me a link? The US publishes massive amounts of self critcism about the way it conducts its miltiary campaigns. Quite frankly, I don't see it with India. How are you going to have a RMA without it? Somebody please acknowledge that the operations were not perfect in Kargil? Is everybody here just going to mutely accept things were done the way they were because that's the way it was? Where was the air force in this. Whre was the laser target designations? Are you saying that 15,000 ft altitude precludes air force pin point bombing? If I am dreadfuly wrong please point out my misunderstanding. I am looking for some hard hitting to-the-point discussion here on where RMA can be implemented and why it isn't being activated. Or is it?

Where is India at in the laser designation weaponry?

Those of you who undestand both the American culture and Indian culture please point out where my misunderstanding is and why things are different.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby davidn » 01 Nov 2003 13:21

Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by davidn:
I tried to get to the URL quite afew times. It didn't work.

Would it be possible for you to post whats written?

Thanks.
too easy ;)

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031030141843.8xjyvw08

India to invest in Galileo satellite project: EU
30 October 2003

India is to take a 300 million euro (350 million dollar) stake in the European Union's Galileo satellite navigation system, the EU said Thursday after China also signed up to the rival of the US GPS network.

"Third countries are more enthusiastic than certain European countries about Galileo," EU Transport Commissioner Loyola de Palacio said, referring ironically to wrangling in the 15-member bloc about funding for the project.

The Indian contribution will add to the 200 million euros pledged by China for Galileo under an accord signed at an EU-China summit in Beijing on Thursday.

The announcement came after a visit to Brussels this week by Indian Foreign Minister Yashwant Sinha, who said Tuesday that Galileo was one of the subjects to be discussed at an EU-India summit in New Delhi late next month.

The Galileo Joint Undertaking is a venture between the EU and the European Space Agency and will rival, and likely outperform, the Global Positioning System (GPS) of the United States.

Galileo, scheduled to be operational by 2008, is designed to encircle the globe with 30 satellites in medium Earth orbit, comprising 27 operational satellites and three reserves, plus two control centres on the ground.

It should provide users, ranging from aircraft and shipping to cars and trekkers, with a navigational fix accurate to within just one metrefeet), more accurate than the US GPS system.

At present, the only global satellite system available to civilians is GPS, but it is accurate only to 100 metres (325 feet) for civilians, or 22 metres (71 feet) for the military, and is under the control of the Pentagon.

Galileo's total development and launch costs are put at around 3.2-3.3 billion euros, with initial running costs from 2008 onwards of around 220 million euros a year.
as an aside, this amount seems to b more than the chicoms forked over, but none of the europeans seem to care... :confused:

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby TSJones » 01 Nov 2003 14:58

Some stuff to read:

Tranformed or same old stuff?

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby shiv » 01 Nov 2003 16:08

Originally posted by TSJones:


Also I am bothered by the fact that I have not read of any criticism of the India Army over Kargil that is written by the Indian Army *command structure*. Lessons learned? Yeah, I've read some of them and it looks like to me all dealing with politics. How about operationally? Somebody give me a link? The US publishes massive amounts of self critcism about the way it conducts its miltiary campaigns. Quite frankly, I don't see it with India. How are you going to have a RMA without it? Somebody please acknowledge that the operations were not perfect in Kargil? Is everybody here just going to mutely accept things were done the way they were because that's the way it was? Where was the air force in this. Whre was the laser target designations? Are you saying that 15,000 ft altitude precludes air force pin point bombing? If I am dreadfuly wrong please point out my misunderstanding. I am looking for some hard hitting to-the-point discussion here on where RMA can be implemented and why it isn't being activated. Or is it?

Where is India at in the laser designation weaponry?

Those of you who undestand both the American culture and Indian culture please point out where my misunderstanding is and why things are different.
Sorry to quote so much

I will leave out the air force from this - because the business of laser designators etc has been dicussed to death here IIRC

Critisism of the Army from the Army?

I have access to no such links. But of course there has been plenty of criticism and some of the links Gooogle threw up are sure to raise blood pressures on here.

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/aug/07nad.htm
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2002/stories/20030131005403400.htm
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000225/main1.htm
http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/report.html
http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/aug/09us.htm - this from the US

As you say - nothing is clear about "lessons learned" etc and one has to hope and trust that lessons have been learned.

TSJ I am not sure that this is a "cultural thing" but there certainly have been/are differences in the level of openness with which certain issues are discussed in India vs what is done in the US.

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Re: Indian Army - Revolution in Military Affairs

Postby Surya » 01 Nov 2003 18:27

Will people stop compaining about the infantry equipment. As SBM has pointed out by and large the equipment is adequate.

We have seen the result of the fantastic US equipment - casualties are atthe same rate.

You can only protect so much.

TSJ:

The Army's journals have the self criticisms. For obvious reasons they are are on restricted circulation.


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