Distorted History - Causes, Consequences and Remedies

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Kaushal
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Post by Kaushal »

May I request a brief synopsis of what these distortions are? In particular what exactly is wrong about the commonly held views on the following?


This is discussed by me elsewhere (indicstudies.us). These are in some cases lengthy arguments and should be discussed either in a seminar setting or in a classroom or dig into the literature which is fairly voluminous.... I am also losing dexterity with my fingers to do extensive typings
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Post by Jagan »

Kaushal wrote:an we keep the font size to normal please ?


i have vision problem with the small font size. I consistently use 12 pt size for all the work that i do at the keyboard.
Kaushal garu,

This might be a remedy that would address the small font size. If you have Internet Explorer 7, there is a zoom button in the lower right corner that automatically enlarges a page size to 100 125 150% even more...that way you can also increase the size of posts of other people. (alternative way - press CTRL and the + key together ). This is one feature that encourages upgrading to Version 7

Right now you are composing the message, you will still see small font in the message box and it no way helps address your problem. you will only be able to read your own posts in large font after you post it and not before and the posts from other members still appears small.
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Re: Distorted History - Causes, Consequences and Remedies

Post by shiv »

Kaushal wrote:You are cordially invited to participate in a Seminar titled
'Chronology and Distinguishing Characteristics of the Indic Civilization',
to be held in Dallas, TX (Oct 12-14th, 2007). Please find attached a Call
for Papers detailing the issues, background, purpose, and deliverables for
the seminar.

The objective of the seminar is to increase awareness of the
importance of learning the accurate History of India. The seminar is a
small step towards questioning the establishment, present new research,
uncover new facts, and propagate the correct history to the public at
large in general, and the classrooms in particular.
The meeting is still 3 weeks away.

I think this thread has been a sticky long enough and I will unsticky it - but the thread will remain, and can always be brought "up" as information is added.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Here are some interesting tidbits provided by local guides during a recent visit to the Halebeedu temple complex.
Does any of the gurus here know more about these on the veracity of the narration of the local guides?
Please note the attire of the sculpture in image 1 at Halebeedu. The Hoysala halebeedu and Belur temple complex were built in 12th century and barbarians led by MaliKafur ransacked it in 14th century and the firangis showed up much later.
Image
Local Guide’s narration: This kind of attire was adapted by firangi’s after local encounter for their jury/justice practices.
Image

Please note what looks like a viewing device in the image 2 at Halebeedu.
Local Guide’s narration: The optical device was in vogue and used in warfare at 12th century itself. (Telescopes come much later)

Local Guide’s narration: There were 80 beautiful sculptures (most of which were installed at roof levels – difficult to get to) depicting various poses of dance and only 14 are left today at Halebeedu with rest of them stolen by British (many of them could be found in various museums and private collections in UQueendom.
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Post by anupmisra »

Kaushal wrote:May I request a brief synopsis of what these distortions are? In particular what exactly is wrong about the commonly held views on the following?


This is discussed by me elsewhere (indicstudies.us). These are in some cases lengthy arguments and should be discussed either in a seminar setting or in a classroom or dig into the literature which is fairly voluminous.... I am also losing dexterity with my fingers to do extensive typings
Kaushal,

What is your contact information?

Thanks,

Anup
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Post by anupmisra »

JwalaMukhi wrote:Here are some interesting tidbits provided by local guides during a recent visit to the Halebeedu temple complex.
Does any of the gurus here know more about these on the veracity of the narration of the local guides?
Please note the attire of the sculpture in image 1 at Halebeedu. The Hoysala halebeedu and Belur temple complex were built in 12th century and barbarians led by MaliKafur ransacked it in 14th century and the firangis showed up much later.
Image
Local Guide’s narration: This kind of attire was adapted by firangi’s after local encounter for their jury/justice practices.
Image

Please note what looks like a viewing device in the image 2 at Halebeedu.
Local Guide’s narration: The optical device was in vogue and used in warfare at 12th century itself. (Telescopes come much later)

Local Guide’s narration: There were 80 beautiful sculptures (most of which were installed at roof levels – difficult to get to) depicting various poses of dance and only 14 are left today at Halebeedu with rest of them stolen by British (many of them could be found in various museums and private collections in UQueendom.
On a closer look, it does not seem like a telescope or a viewing device. It looks more like a bottle or something that apsara is drinking from.
emsin

Post by emsin »

Kaushal i have been independently doing some work on this..i'm sure though you may have gone through this. But still posting it here..

Stereotypes about India and Hinduism when taught as fact in American classrooms may negatively impact students of South Asian origin who are struggling to work out their identity in a multicultural, predominately Anglo-Christian environment. The first section of this article explores the reactions of Hindu students who have studied about India in social studies classes in American secondary schools. The data was drawn from surveys distributed at the University of Texas at Austin to students of South Asian descent who attended high school in the USA, as well as from personal interviews with several American-educated students of Indian heritage.

The second section of this article is a discussion of the coverage of India in four world history textbooks, with a closer look at the textbook that was used in the Austin Independent School District for six years during the 1990s. The final section is a statistical analysis of the preparedness of secondary social studies educators, graduating from the University of Texas at Austin, to teach about India and other non-Western regions.

This article is addressed not only to educators, but to parents and citizens from all ethnic groups concerned about fostering a non-prejudicial society and international understanding and cooperation. This article offers no solutions. But, it is hoped that by pointing out the problems, remedies may be found to improve the discourse about South Asia and other non-Western regions of the world that predominates in World history classrooms and textbooks, and to encourage greater preparedness of secondary social studies teachers in the area of global/international education. Unfortunately, the dilemma of negative stereotypes about Hinduism remains endemic in American academia.
http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/ts ... Rosser.htm
emsin

Post by emsin »

some more excerpts from the above..that many may not read..
One informant complained that "Hinduism" was described as "some sort of bizarre mystic religion in which people do dances and worship strange things. India is full of poor uneducated starving people, a country on the verge of collapse." Critical of the stereotype-as-fact orientation, another young man stated "The poverty of India was blown out of proportion and no Asian countries were credited with the artistic and literary contributions they made to the world. Islamic nations were presented as fanatical, China was the 'communist enemy', Japan was an economic and educational threat and India was overpopulated." The majority of the informants agreed that when India was studied, "Religion and the caste system were emphasized." Several noted that when studying Gandhi, in the context of Partition, "animosity between Hindus and Muslims" was discussed. There was no mention of post-independence secular India's efforts toward national integration of its minorities and low caste citizens.

Another informant contrasted the emphasis on South Asia—"poverty, religion, reincarnation, British rule, Gandhi, caste" with the emphasis placed on China and Japan which focused on "forms of government, religions, main exports, imports." This essentialist stereotypical representation of India can be summed up by one student's list of topics, "polytheism and a poor and very big population, [which is] highly underdeveloped. . ." and, she adds as did many of the informants, "we worship rats and eat monkey brains."

The wholly fictional depiction of India in the Steven Spielberg film, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, seems to have been taken as a valid portrayal of India by many teachers, since a large number of students surveyed complained that teachers referred to the eating of monkey brains. We all remember that the worshipping of rats was widely discussed during the "epidemic" in Surat in the early nineties. In my own experience, while training teachers to teach about India, I have been amazed at how many people really think that Hindus worship rats. When I point out this is an absurd way to think about Hinduism, and ludicrous to teach their students, they argue that they read it in an AP news wire. The way that I deal with this issue is to compare the worship of rats among Hindus, at an obscure temple in Rajasthan, to the worship, among Christians, of David Koresh at the Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. It is a good analogy since the teachers respond that though some Christians did worship David Koresh, it is certainly not a defining characteristic and actually abhorrent to most Christians. Thus it is for rat worship among Hindus.
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Post by menon »

JwalaMukhi wrote:*************

Please note what looks like a viewing device in the image 2 at Halebeedu.
Local Guide’s narration: The optical device was in vogue and used in warfare at 12th century itself. (Telescopes come much later)

Local Guide’s narration: There were 80 beautiful sculptures (most of which were installed at roof levels – difficult to get to) depicting various poses of dance and only 14 are left today at Halebeedu with rest of them stolen by British (many of them could be found in various museums and private collections in UQueendom.
I would like to state only two things.
1. That the viewing device is held by the lead soldier resting it on the top of the shield. So, in all probablity it is a viewing device. (Please remember that cocacola has not yet been issue to soldiers of that time, nor PET bottles).
2. The second pic looks like a military greatcoat not yet designed and made.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

This image covers the panel more and the depiction looks like a war scene. Watch the artillery pieces in the middle of the photo. It is unlikely to be a drinking container. Definitely, not an apsara...

Image
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Post by anupmisra »

JwalaMukhi wrote:This image covers the panel more and the depiction looks like a war scene. Watch the artillery pieces in the middle of the photo. It is unlikely to be a drinking container. Definitely, not an apsara...

Image
Could it be a horn or a conch shell?
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Post by Sagar »

anupmisra wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote:
Image
Could it be a horn or a conch shell?
May I request you to rewrite "Conch" as Shankh?

Sagar
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

The degree of representation of most object are of extreme finesse, very little crude representations, if any. The attention to details is amazing and the depiction technique is quite thought out. Some examples are finger nails, bulging of eyes of the bull, stance of the bull when it is free versus when it is carrying load. To indicate poision (either a vish-kanya or putana demoness carrying poison) a scorpion is put right on th belly.
The object is not shown to be hollow, for horn. The conch shell (shank) would have been obvious and not a crude representation.

P.S. A request when replying, edit out the image.
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Post by Kaushal »

emsin, i presume you are YR. Of course i am familiar with your work for a number of years. I trust you will participate in my session also since i understand you will be in Dallas. We didnt have much of a chance to chat at LA, but i plan to arrive in Dallas on thursday evening, so i look forward to an update from you on various issues and hopefully you will take part in the sessiojn or the workshop afterwords.

Kaushal
emsin

Post by emsin »

Kaushal, i'm not YR. I have gone through the work though. All i meant was i have been independently doing my own homework on this front for a few years. I have been collecting data etc. I am totally appreciative of your effort. Keep to the truth..and yes good work and my very best wishes for your efforts.
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Post by Kaushal »

I apologize for the error
emsin

Post by emsin »

Kaushal do raise in your programme issues like hijacking vegetarianism, Yoga, historical exclusivity of religios like Buddhism, Jainism, from overall Indian thought. We discussed some of these things briefly in another thread. I have loads of core material on this. not compiled, but if you need something, i would be extremely pleased if i can help out.
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Post by Kaushal »

emcin, JI do not know whether every one of the subjects you brought up will come up. My objective is not to recite a littany of grievances against the Occidental (rhymes with oriental)but to give a phiolosophical underpinning to the long and steady evolution of the Indic civilization it breadth and what is indeed remarkable its staying power. The other great civilizations have either altered signicantly or been driven extinct. There is nothing left of the Greek civilization (although the west fancies itself the successor to the Greco Roman civilization. The ancient Greeks would be considered Pagans by the established churches today, and hardly any of their life style remains.

The Indic civilization is the only one surviving virtually intact. The Gayatri mantra and the invoking of Savitur is at least 7000 years old. It already asks for enlightenment and not for bread, because they had mastered agriculture and had no problem with adequate food. People (west of the Urals)wonder what happened to the Indus Valley civilization. Nothing dramatic happened they just moved on and their descendants became the Gujaratis , Maharashtrians and other residents of modern India. Itis this unbroken continuity tht rankles with the Occidental, because he is all to conscious that his own history is replete with wars (e.g.the hundred years war between England and Frnace),extinct civilizations, destructioin. hence his obsession to endow India with a similar heritage.

We iwho are of Indic heritage realize only too well that a mere claim of antiquity will not gain us the respect of the world, but it is indeed remarkable to see the great lengths the occidental will go to deny us the antiquity which we feel is the right one. The ferocity with which he argue s against our historical heritage is only matched by the tenacity with which he would deny us a place at the table with other major powers, and that is another story unto itself
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Post by ramana »

JwalaMukhi, I posted your image of Halebid in IF in the following thread. There is some discussion if you would lik to partake.

Pre-Modern Warfare in India
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

ramana wrote:JwalaMukhi, I posted your image of Halebid in IF in the following thread. There is some discussion if you would lik to partake.

Pre-Modern Warfare in India
Thanks Ramana. Shall participate. Actually thought of writing about these temples , as there is paucity of information on the net. Probably, I will write in IF. The wikipedia has vague information on these temples and some incorrect info too.
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Post by ramana »

Sulekha Blog on Rama and Krishna

Its about antiquity of Hindu civilization to 20000 BC. This was a point that Kaushal made at the combined mtg in Milpitas.
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Post by ramana »

Folks there are couple of short books <100 pages in Telugu about Guptas(92 pages) and Andhras (50 pages). I would like to know if someone would like to translate them into English for a wider audience and put it in pdf format? Its ok is there is a commercial entity in Hyderabad that can do the job.

Thanks, ramana
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Post by ramana »

Two books in Telugu and one in Hindi

Sri Kota Venkatachalam:

1) Who are the Gupta Kings ? Guptarajuluevaru?

2) Who are the Andhras?

Andhruluevaru?


3)Bharat Rajaniti- Krishna Kumar

Bharata Rajniti

Please download the pdfs and give us synopsis.

Thanks.

Mother lode of such digital manuscripts:

Internet Search Archive


This one has many types of e-books.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

How to create a DIE right from a young age?
X-posted from education thread:
Not sure, if this needs to be posted in Nation on the March thread.
Good news: you can access what school kids learn.
More Good News: Distortions and social engineering aspects are laid bare for scrutiny.
Bad News: As more non eminent historians/JNU types scrutinize, the online viewing could be restricted or completely pulled down.
I suspect these textbooks are indicative what NCERT and many other states put together.
http://www.textbooksonline.tn.nic.in/
Sampler from class XI and class XII history books posted without comments (ensoi):

Quote:
The cities of the Harappan Culture had declined by 1500 B.C.
.... Around this period, the speakers of Indo-Aryan language,
Sanskrit, entered the north-west India from the Indo-Iranian region.
Initially they would have come in small numbers through the passes
in the northwestern mountains. Their initial settlements were in the
valleys of the north-west and the plains of the Punjab. Later, they
moved into Indo-Gangetic plains. As they were mainly a cattlekeeping
people
,( :lol: ) they were mainly in search of pastures. By 6th
century B.C., they occupied the whole of North India, which was
referred to as Aryavarta. This period between 1500 B.C and 600
B.C may be divided into the Early Vedic Period or Rig Vedic Period
(1500 B.C -1000 B.C) and the Later Vedic Period (1000B.C -
600 B.C).
They include the Arctic region, Germany, Central Asia and southern Russia. BalaGangadhara Tilak argues that the Aryans came from the Arctic region on astronomical calculations. However, the theory of southern Russia appears to be more probable and widely accepted by historians.From there, the Aryans moved to different parts of Asia and Europe.They entered India in about 1500 B.C. and came to be known as
Indo-Aryans.

Female infanticide was another inhuman practice afflicting the
19th century Indian society. It was particularly in vogue in Rajputana,
Punjab and the North Western Provinces. ... Factors such as family pride, the fear of not finding a suitable match for the girl child and the hesitation
to bend before the prospective in-laws (:-? ) were some of the major reasons responsible for this practice. Therefore, immediately after birth, the female infants were being killed either by feeding them with opium or by strangulating or by purposely neglecting them.

The condition of women, by the time the British established
their rule, was not encouraging. Several evil practices such as the
practice of Sati, the Purdah system, child marriage, female infanticide,
bride price and polygamy had made their life quite miserable. The
place of women had come to be confined to the four walls of her
home.[
/i]


Bentinck was a “straightforward, honest, upright, benevolent,
sensible manâ€
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Post by ramana »

Op-Ed in Pioneer, 8 Oct., 2007
Kerala School absent in annals

Second opinion: KL Jhingan

This has reference to the article, "From Kerala to infinity", the interview with George G Joseph "Knowledge Travels" (August 20) and the editorial, "This is to certify" (August 14).

On going through AL Basham's books, The Wonder that was India and A Cultural History of India, and the chapter on mathematics in ancient India in Jawaharlal Nehru's Discovery of India, one gets a clear indication as to who were the leading lights of Indian mathematics in the past: Aryabhatt (5th century) Brahmagupta (7th Century) Mahavir (9th century) and Bhaskar (12th Century). There is no reference, even obliquely, to the so-called 'Kerala School'.

Basham says that some progress happened in trigonometry, spherical geometry and calculus chiefly in connection with astronomy. He only mentions the above-mentioned doyens of ancient Indian mathematics. And Will Durant states, "Bhaskar crudely anticipated the differential calculus."

The book, A Cultural History of India, says, "KS Shukla lists a minimum 28 commentaries on it (the reference is to Surya Sidhant) by known authors mostly in Sanskrit but two in Telugu reaching to the early 18th century together with at least 17 works based essentially upon its theory, his recent edition includes the commentary of Parameswar (AD 432) written in Kerala in south India."

Discovery of India talks of Narayan (1150 AD), Ganesh (1545 (AD), and mentions a book, History of Hindu Mathematics, by B Dutta and AN Singh 1935. There were earlier books also Baudhayan (eighth century BC) Apastamb and Katyayan (both fifth century BC).

From the above, it can be inferred that the roots of ancient Indian mathematics go back to Vedic times with the flowering of the genius. Such mathematics reached its zenith from fifth to 12th centuries AD.

The observations in The Wonder that was India and Our Oriental Heritage regarding ancient Indian mathematicians' acquaintance with calculus during the above period was decidedly prior to the claim of so-called Kerala School. Thereafter, very little original work on mathematics was done in India after the 12th century, as opined by Nehru; other works being mere repetitions.

There is no reference to Madhava and Nilakantha of the 'Kerala School', to whom the knowledge of infinite series - one of the basic components of calculus in attributed in the said article.
Will try to get the Aug 20th article and post here.
From Kerala to infinity

In their stunning new research, Dennis Francis Almeida and George Gheverghese Joseph show how mathematicians in Kerala developed the infinite series more than 250 years before Isaac Newton is credited to have done so. It was Jesuit missionaries who carried Kerala's knowledge to Europe
According to literature the general methods of the calculus were invented independently by Newton and Leibniz in the late 17th century after exploiting the works of European pioneers such as Fermat, Roberval, Taylor, Gregory, Pascal, and Bernoulli in the preceding half century.

However, what appears to be less well known is that the fundamental elements of the calculus including numerical integration methods and infinite series derivations for 'pi' and for trigonometric functions such as sin x, cos x and tan-1 x (the so-called Gregory series) had already been discovered over 250 years earlier in Kerala.

These developments first occurred in the works of the Kerala mathematician Madhava and were subsequently elaborated on by his followers Nilakantha Somayaji, Jyesthadeva, Sankara Variyar and others between the 14th and 16th centuries. In the latter half of the 20th century there has been some acknowledgement of these facts outside India.

There are several modern European histories of mathematics which acknowledge the work of the Kerala school. However it needs to be pointed out that this acknowledgement is not necessarily universal. For example, in the recent past a paper by Fiegenbaum on the history of the calculus makes no acknowledgement of the work of the Kerala school.

However, prior to the publication of Fiegenbaum's paper, several renowned publications detailing the Keralese calculus had already appeared in the West. Such a viewpoint may have its origins in the Eurocentrism that was formulated during the period colonisation by some European nations.

In the early part of the second millennium evaluations of Indian mathematics or, to be precise, astronomy were generally from Arab commentators. They tended to indicate that Indian science and mathematics was independently derived.

Some, like Said Al-Andalusi, claimed it to be of a high order: "(The Indians) have acquired immense information and reached the zenith in their knowledge of the movements of the stars (astronomy) and the secrets of the skies (astrology) as well as other mathematical studies. After all that, they have surpassed all the other peoples in their knowledge of medical science and the strengths of various drugs, the characteristics of compounds, and the peculiarities of substances."

Others like Al-Biruni were more critical. He asserted that Indian mathematics and astronomy was much like the vast mathematical literature of the 21st century - uneven with a few good quality research papers and a majority of error strewn publications.

Nevertheless a common element in these early evaluations is the uniqueness of the development of Indian mathematics. However by the 19th century and contemporaneous with the establishment of European colonies in the East, the views of European scholars about the supposed superiority of European knowledge was developing racist overtones.

This inclination for ignoring advances in and priority of discovery by non-European mathematicians persisted until even very recent times. For example there is no mention of the work of the Kerala School in Edwards' text on the history of the calculus nor in articles on the history of infinite series by historians of mathematics such as Abeles and Fiegenbaum. A possible reason for such puzzling standards in scholarship may have been the rising Eurocentrism that accompanied European colonisation. With this phenomenon, the assumption of White superiority became dominant over a wide range of activities, including the writing of the history of mathematics.
The rise of nationalism in 19th century Europe and the consequent search for the roots of European civilisation, led to an obsession with Greece and the myth of Greek culture as the cradle of all knowledge and values and Europe becoming heir to Greek learning and values.

While we understand the strength of nationalist pride in the evaluation of the achievements of scientists, we do find difficulty in the qualitative comparison between two developments founded on different epistemological bases. It is worthwhile stating here that the initial development of the calculus in 17th century Europe followed the paradigm of Euclidean geometry in which generalisation was important and in which the infinite was a difficult issue.

On the other hand, from the 15th century onwards the Kerala mathematicians employed computational mathematics with floating point numbers to understand the notion of the infinitesimal and derive infinite series for certain targeted functions.
-- Excerpted from 'Kerala Mathematics and its Possible Transmission to Europe' by Dennis Francis Almeida, University of Exeter & George Gheverghese Joseph, University of Manchester. This was originally published in Philosophy of Mathematics Education Journal.
and
Knowledge travels

In the light of recent research at the University of Manchester which shows that the "infinite series" -- and the "Pi series" therein -- were determined by Kerala scholars 250 years before Isaac Newton is credited to have done so, Nandini Jawli spoke to head researcher Dr George Gheverghese Joseph. Excerpts from the interview:

Q. Did you have an inkling of the fact that the "infinite series" and the "Pi series" must have originally been discovered outside Europe?

A. Certainly there was information about it. While researching on my first edition, I did find out that there were quite a number of papers published in India and elsewhere that discussed this.

Here I would like to specify that when you talk of Infinite series, the Pi series is part of it. They are not separate series. Infinite series involve trigonometric functions - sines, cosines and circular functions.

I don't think Indians then knew something called 'pi', that has come later. They were interested in finding out some sort of a way to calculate the circumference of a circle for a given diameter, which virtually comes to the same thing as pi.

Q. How do you think the knowledge of the Infinite series must have finally reached Sir Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibnitz?

A. This is a conjecture. We do not have any direct evidence. It is unlikely that Newton or Leibnitz knew anything about Kerala mathematics. But they might have obtained their mathematics from a number of European mathematicians, who lived before them. like Fermat, Wallis, James Gregory, who were at some point in touch with the Jesuits for professional reasons. Some of the prominent Jesuit mathematicians and astronomers - like Matteo Ricci, Antonio Rubino and Johann Shreck - had gone to Kerala between middle of 16th to early 17th century. They were sent on a project to know how Indians constructed calendar and did stellar navigation.

Newton and Leibnitz did not directly know about Kerala mathematics. But they were dependent on some of the mathematical ideas of Fermat and others, who could actually have very well been informed by Jesuits. Probably, Jesuits had got the original idea from Kerala.

Q. While the Jesuit missionaries were studying calendars used in different parts of the world, how come they chanced upon scholarly works on calculus, a completely different field of study? Was it a chance finding? An accident?

A. Certainly, it was! The Jesuits were sent to India on an information-gathering mission to find out about Indian calendar. It was the time when Pope had formed a committee to reform Julian calendar. Clavius, the renowned teacher in Rome, had instructed his students to look out for information on Indian calendars.

So if there was any connection to the infinite series, it was not directly the calendar but stellar navigation, which involves accurate values of sines and cosines.

Q. You have told the media: "There were many reasons why the contribution of the Kerala school has not been acknowledged - a legacy of European colonialism and beyond." What is the solution to this prejudice?

A. This is one reason but there are other reasons as well. The activity of the Kerala school was highly localised, just confined to a small area north of Cochin. Then there was the linguistic problem. Very few people who studied, knew the old Malayalam. Many Western scholars knew Sanskrit but not many knew Malayalam.

Another reason was its being a former colony. It's not been part of any colonial power, not just British, to acknowledge that they owe a debt to anybody, particularly someone from a colony.

The solution: We have to more and more excavate the knowledge, make sure we have strong evidence to support any claims. The solution is to break down this prejudice whether from India , Europe or Islamic countries. We would be making same mistakes like Europeans if we try to monopolise mathematical knowledge.

Q. Would it not have been ethical of Newton to acknowledge the contribution of received wisdom to his works on analytical dynamics?

A. Newton was a great scientist. He will be remembered for his genius for a long time. There is nothing unethical about it. His greatness lies in bringing together a number of strands, putting them in a coherent framework and creating something new. His calculus was the starting point of modern mathematics.

I am simply saying that one particular aspect of something attributed to Newton, may have come from Kerala or India.
Maybe the info about the Kerala school of mathematics was no known outside Kerala?
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Post by harbans »

Ramana, the best book on the history of numbers is by a French- Moroccon researcher Georges Ifrah. It's in 3 volumes. He goes gaga and proves meticulously how the West and Middle East took credit for a huge number of mathematcial advances made in India and claimed as their own for colonial and other reasons.

This book is brilliant and a must in every Indian household. An absolute must read!
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Post by Kaushal »

I agree Georges Ifrah's book is phenomenal. Incidentally it was pointed tout to me many years ago by Jaideep Menon, one of the moderatores of BR when we had a thread running on Indic Mathematics. Ijncidentally i resurrec ted those portions of the thread that were attributable to me and have used them over the years as notes.

The Kerala story is still developing. There is a tendency for the UK based Mathematicians George Gevhergese and Dennis Almeda to omit the work of India based Mathematicians and to present their work of discovering the Kerala origin of the Calculus in Vacuo. In reality there has been a steady stream of research starting from Independence by well known indian mathematicians CT Rajagopal, Ramasubramanian, MD Srinivas, and others culminating in the epoch making treatise of CK Raju on the Cultural Foundations of Mathematics (which may be available in Amazon shortly which is a seminal work, explaining the nature of Indic mathematics and how it differs fundamentally from the Greek conception of mathematics which hobbled western science for centuries if not millennia. Stay tuned for updates on this and my own proposal for a TV series on the the development of Indic Quantitative and linguistic sciences. I hope to launch the fund raising for this project in the near future . I Have a particular interest in this since i have had a longstanding interest in greek mathematics for the last few decades (my interest in Indic mathematics grew out ogf my pior preoccupation with Greek math)and intend to be associated with the project in an editorial capacity. This will need beau coup $ and those who are interested in the progress of the project should request to be put in my mailing list for these activities.
Stay tuned for more,

Kaushal
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Post by Kaushal »

There has been a thread running on India-Forum for a quite a while now On Indic Mathematical traditions , where most of us who are interested in historical matters had migrated, after BR frowned on such topics.
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Post by Arun_S »

How about secular science that has distorted and negated history?

So modernism and science made myth of what they cant explain or not sanctioned in the only true encyclupedia know as the Bible.

So Indian scriptures, and all its sacred entities including Hanuman is made myth by these secular-christinophiles.

I earlier stated how the Indian scriptures recollecting Historical events from deep historical antiquity; and how modern Science has continuously evolved to converge with Indian scriptures in terms of age of universe and also human/humenioid presence on Earth that has been continuously rolled back.

For those old enough will recall, Science being on slipper slope of determining Arrival of Human/Humaniod on Earth from, 20,000 years to 150,000 -> 200,00 - 0.5 million, 1.2 million and 2 million years. (Much beyond the Christian/Bible taught absolute truth of God created Man recently and no more than 5000 BC. Now Bible truth bites dust on this matter.)

And now per following news report >15 million years.

New Findings Solve Human Origins Mystery
The critical event involves a dramatic embryological change unique to the human lineage that was not previously understood because the unusual human condition was viewed as "normal."

by Staff Writers
Los Angeles CA (SPX) Oct 11, 2007
An extraordinary advance in human origins research reveals evidence of the emergence of the upright human body plan over 15 million years earlier than most experts have believed. More dramatically, the study confirms preliminary evidence that many early hominoid apes were most likely upright bipedal walkers sharing the basic body form of modern humans. On October 10th, online, open-access journal PLoS ONE will publish the report based on research from Harvard University's Museum of Comparative Zoology and from the Cedars Sinai Institute for Spinal Disorders that connects several recent fossil discoveries to older fossils finds that have eluded adequate explanation in the past.

Recent advances in the field of homeotic genetics together with a series of discoveries of hominoid fossils vertebrae now strongly suggest that a specific genetic change that generated the upright bipedal human body form may soon be identified. The various upright "hominiform" hominoids appear to share this morphogenetic innovation with modern humans. Homeotics concerns the embryological assembly program for midline repeating structures such as the human vertebral column and the insect body segments.

The report analyses changes in homeotic embryological assembly of the spine in more than 200 mammalian species across a 250 million year time scale. It identifies a series of modular changes in genetic assembly program that have taken place at the origin point of several major groups of mammals including the newly designated 'hominiform' hominoids that share the modern human body plan.

The critical event involves a dramatic embryological change unique to the human lineage that was not previously understood because the unusual human condition was viewed as "normal."

"From an embryological point of view, what took place is literally breathtaking," says Dr. Aaron Filler, a Harvard trained evolutionary biologist and a medical director at Cedars Sinai Medical Center's Institute for Spinal Disorders. Dr. Filler is an expert in spinal biology and the author of three books about the spine - "Axial Character Seriation in Mammals" (BrownWalker 2007), "The Upright Ape" (New Page Books 2007), and "Do You Really Need Back Surgery" (Oxford University Press 2007).

In most vertebrates (including most mammals), he explains, the dividing plane between the front (ventral) part of the body and the back (dorsal) part is a "horizontal septum" that runs in front of the spinal canal. This is a fundamental aspect of animal architecture. A bizarre birth defect in what may have been the first direct human ancestor led to the "transposition" of the septum to a position behind the spinal cord in the lumbar region. Oddly enough, this configuration is more typical of invertebrates.

The mechanical effect of the transposition was to make horizontal or quadrupedal stance inefficient. "Any mammal with this set of changes would only be comfortable standing upright. I would envision this malformed young hominiform - the first true ancestral human - as standing upright from a young age while its siblings walked around on all fours."

The earliest example of the transformed hominiform type of lumbar spine is found in Morotopithecus bishopi an extinct hominoid species that lived in Uganda more than 21 million years ago. "From a number of points of view," Filler says, "humanity can be redefined as having its origin with Morotopithecus. This greatly demotes the importance of the bipedalism of Australopithecus species such as Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) since we now know of four upright bipedal species that precede her, found from various time periods on out to Morotopithecus in the Early Miocene."

Environmental setting of human migrations in the circum-Pacific Region
A new study by Kevin Pope of Geo Eco Arc Research and John Terrell of The Field Museum adds insight into the migration of anatomically modern humans out of Africa and into Asia less than 100,000 years before present (BP). The comprehensive review of human genetic, environmental, and archaeological data from the circum-Pacific region supports the hypothesis, originally based largely on genetic evidence, that modern humans migrated into eastern Asia via a southern coastal route.

The expansion of modern human populations into the circum-Pacific region occurred in at least four pulses, in part controlled by climate and sea level changes in the Late Pleistocene and Holocene epochs. The initial "out of Africa" migration was thwarted by dramatic changes in both sea level and climate and extreme drought in the coastal zone.

A period of stable climate and sea level 45,000-40,000 years BP gave rise to the first major pulse of migration, when modern humans spread from India, throughout much of coastal southeast Asia, Australia, and Melanesia, extending northward to eastern Russia and Japan by 37,000 years BP.

The northward push of modern humans along the eastern coast of Asia stalled north of 43 N latitude, probably due to the inability of the populations to adjust to cold waters and tundra/steppe vegetation.

The ensuing cold and dry Last Glacial period, about 33,000-16,000 year BP, once again brought dramatic changes in sea level and climate, which caused abandonment of many coastal sites. After 16,000 years BP, climates began to warm, but sea level was still 100 m below modern levels, creating conditions amenable for a second pulse of human migration into North America across an ice-free coastal plain now covered by the Bering Sea.

The stabilization of climate and sea level in the early Holocene (8,000-6,000 years BP) supported the expansion of coastal wetlands, lagoons, and coral reefs, which in turn gave rise to a third pulse of coastal settlement, filling in most of the circum-Pacific region.

A slight drop in sea level in the western Pacific in the mid-Holocene (about 6,000-4,000 year BP), caused a reduction in productive coastal habitats, leading to a brief disruption in human subsistence along the then densely settled coast. This disruption may have helped initiate the last major pulse of human migration in the circum-Pacific region, that of the migration to Oceania, which began about 3,500 years BP and culminated in the settlement of Hawaii and Easter Island by 2000-1000 years BP.
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Post by Prem »

If the existence of species like Hanuman is accepted then antiquity of Vedas will be pushed even much farther. :D This will make Semetic God just a new kid on the block.
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Post by mandrake »

The human migration from Africa to India to Europe has been comfortably proven and extremely well illustrated and a scientifically widely accepted fact by Oppenheimer as well.

www.bradshawfoundation.com/

Interestingly he is one of highly reputed Genetics professor, what is even more interesting has comfortably disproven AIT (he did not wanted to work on AIT or something), but his work clearly and scientifically suggests there has been no AIT. I'm not posting his particular work and its relevance how it comfortably disproves AIT here as of now.

Afterall, to explain European ancestory you have to assume a Indian mTdna line, while to explain a Indian ancestory you dont have to do so.
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Post by Arun_S »

Facts need to speak for themselves, and not a no-body like Oppenheimer or Micheal Jackson be quoted on matters they have no mastry.
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Post by Nandu »

joey, The human journey as shown in the bradshaw foundation website has no bearing at all on AIT. Please do not confuse time scales. Bringing in such unfounded arguments discredits the opposition to AIT.
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Post by SwamyG »

And maybe someday the land body connected with earlier Sangam era would also be identified.
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Post by Kaushal »

Some notes and observations from HEC2007

1. Most of the papers are now in and and can be perused in my google document space. You can access it by asking me (do a google on my name) for approval..... Or you can access it at my web site www.indicethos.org/History/HEC2007.htm
However this will be password protected for the next 3 months until it appears in print in the Hindu renaissance magazine usually in the 2nd issue of 2008. My introductory talk cann be found at kaushal42.blogspot.com. for the password email me at history-seminar at heconf dot com.

I plan to bring out a book based on the lectures (target April 2008)

2. There are several folllow ons

a. Hold a seminar in india in 2008 (if you know people in India who would take the initiiative to host a mini seminar (a half day) or a full seminar for 2 days let me know and have them get in touch with me (abhishek and others if you are reading this pl. .get in touch with me if you are interested in exploring this.
b' Teach teachers about indian contributions in math and astronomy
c. produce a TV series on Math and astronomy along the lines of The ascent of man (target 2q2009)
d. hold seminars in USa throughout the year (need names for this too)

Generally my session had the most papers (12 papers over 2 days and 6 hours) and very good attendance and the consensus was we need more of the same.
Last edited by Kaushal on 20 Oct 2007 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

how modern Science has continuously evolved to converge with Indian scriptures in terms of age of universe
We have this on the authority of Carl Sagan.

'Hindu cosmology's time-scale for the universe is in consonance with modern science'

http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/29sagan.htm
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Post by Sanku »

Kaushal wrote:name) for approval..... Or you can access it at my web site www.indicethos/History/HEC2007.htm
.
Kaushal; link not working.

Regards
Sanku
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Post by abhischekcc »

Prem wrote:If the existence of species like Hanuman is accepted then antiquity of Vedas will be pushed even much farther. :D This will make Semetic God just a new kid on the block.
Prem, notice that the studies were conducted by Harvard and the Cedars Sinai Institute for Spinal Disorders.

Expect people to cover up these findings or to expalin them away. And to think, these people ask up to be fair (pun intended). :)
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Post by Kaushal »

Fixed the link
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Post by bala »

From the sanjaychoudary link which i had read sometime back, but could not find, is this from the great Carl Sagan. Couple this observation with the multiverse concept of String Theory and things make sense. Of course the "sense" is from the ancient Hindu cosmology..
But the main reason that we oriented this episode of COSMOS towards India is because of that wonderful aspect of Hindu cosmology which first of all gives a time-scale for the Earth and the universe -- a time-scale which is consonant with that of modern scientific cosmology. We know that the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old, and the cosmos, or at least its present incarnation, is something like 10 or 20 billion years old. The Hindu tradition has a day and night of Brahma in this range, somewhere in the region of 8.4 billion years.

As far as I know. It is the only ancient religious tradition on the Earth which talks about the right time-scale. We want to get across the concept of the right time-scale, and to show that it is not unnatural. In the West, people have the sense that what is natural is for the universe to be a few thousand years old, and that billions is indwelling, and no one can understand it. The Hindu concept is very clear. Here is a great world culture which has always talked about billions of years.

Finally, the many billion year time-scale of Hindu cosmology is not the entire history of the universe, but just the day and night of Brahma, and there is the idea of an infinite cycle of births and deaths and an infinite number of universes, each with its own gods.

And this is a very grand idea. Whether it is true or not, is not yet clear.
day of Brahma 4320000000 sidereal years
night of Brahma 4320000000 sidereal years
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