Distorted History - Causes, Consequences and Remedies

Sanku
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Postby Sanku » 17 Apr 2008 12:41

Rudradev wrote:This actually suggests that the Marathas *did* have a broader vision than regional imperialism, incorporating the importance of national emblems. Reclaiming Indraprastha, the ancient seat of kings and the capital of Muslim empires since the eleventh century, for Hindavi Swaraj would have had colossal significance throughout the nation. It would also have made a profound psychological impact on the remaining Muslim powers in the subcontinent. It was chiefly the Kafir threat to Delhi in the first place, that so agitated Shah Waliullah.


I believe the CURRENT Kashi Vishvanath temple in Kashi was built by Maratha's. They did not destroy the Mosque that Auranzeb had built by destroying the older temple since in their own words "they wanted to let the muslims know that they were not like them" but were in power never the less.

One of many things to thank the Marathas for -- Jai Bhavani; Har har Mahadev.

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Hope the mods allow

Postby Keshav » 18 Apr 2008 08:10

Ramana expressed interest in this so I hope this won't be considered off-topic:

What are the 10 most important moments in Indian history, politically, scientifically, in literature, and in the arts?

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Postby ramana » 18 Apr 2008 08:39

I offer:
Accession of Chandragupta Maurya
Narasimha Varma Pallava
Accession of Rajaraja Chola. Actually I would get to meet Kundavai Devi:)
Defeat of Prithvi Raj Chauhan
Harihara Raya
Shivaji
Baji Rao
1857

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Postby Avarachan » 20 Apr 2008 03:51

Regarding the recent debate concerning dharma and the conduct of war, I think some BRFites might find the following explanation useful. This is certainly not a definitive or official position of the Orthodox Church, but it is typical.

Peace and War in The Eastern Orthodox Church

http://www.stgeorgecathedral.net/article_0103.html

Following the traditions of Holy Scripture and the teaching of the Church Fathers, the Orthodox Church teaches that peace is divinely ordained condition for human existence, and that every form of conflict and strife is a manifestation of sin. War, as the antithesis of peace, therefore belongs to the realm of human sin. Thus warfare as an activity belongs to realm of fallen human existence and can in no way embody the justice, righteousness, and indeed peace that are the very essence of the reconciliation of God and humanity.

However, when one examines the services of the Orthodox Church in greater detail, one finds other petitions that imply recognition of warfare as an activity in which God’s people are actively involved. The national armed forces are regularly commemorated, and it is asked that they be granted “victory over every enemy and adversary.â€

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Postby Keshav » 20 Apr 2008 06:15

ramana wrote:I offer:
Accession of Chandragupta Maurya
Narasimha Varma Pallava
Accession of Rajaraja Chola. Actually I would get to meet Kundavai Devi:)
Defeat of Prithvi Raj Chauhan
Harihara Raya
Shivaji
Baji Rao
1857


Its interesting that all of your points are political and that you only offered eight. Part of Indian history that is lamented can be summed up by a quote from Karl Marx:

Karl Marx, The New York Tribune, August, 1853 wrote: " Indian society has no history at all, at least no known history. What we call history, is but the history of the successive intruders who founded their empires on the passive basis of that unresisting and unchanging society. Arabs, Turks, Moguls, who had successively overrun India soon became Hindooized; the barbarian conquerors being, by an eternal law of history, conquered themselves by the superior civilization of their subjects"


Was our society so stagnant that only eight events are considered to have changed India? is stagnation a sign of something worse in society?

Is our science so theoretical that it never had any application?

Were there any literature movements that affected large swathes of India?*

Any political ideologies that had sway in different generations?

Non-temple art seems also to have been widely neglected.

*I consider language to have been the largest barrier to Indian nationhood, centralized government, and culture
Last edited by Keshav on 20 Apr 2008 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby csharma » 20 Apr 2008 06:39

In 1853, India's history was not well understood. For example, the Harappan civilization was not known. I am not sure if the pre-Islamic history was well known at that point.

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Postby Keshav » 20 Apr 2008 06:43

csharma wrote:In 1853, India's history was not well understood. For example, the Harappan civilization was not known. I am not sure if the pre-Islamic history was well known at that point.


No one knows why and no one here will blame religion for it, but for whatever reason (and this has been said before) India doesn't seem interested in history or recording its own history.

In this sense, if we look to after the fall of the Guptas, can we say there was very little non-religious cultural connection between states that did not speak the same language?

Its as if each successive generation woke up and hadn't learned anything from the one before it, so nothing changed from time to time. Considering this, we just don't see the same movements that one sees in Europe, such as the Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution or Existentialism and what not.

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Postby csharma » 20 Apr 2008 07:06

I am not sure if one can say that Indians were not interested in history. For example, Chandraguta of the Gupta Age assumed his name knowing fully well about the earlier Chandragupta. That was like 500-600 years before his time.

Hindus might have mixed history with fiction. I think Mahabharata and Ramayan actually must have happened but not in the way they are described. Constant revisions for various reasons might have made these documents a bit devoid of historical context. That is just my conjecture.

Regardless of central authority, kingdoms knew they were part of same civilization. There was talk among Hindu Kings of forming a coalition against the invading Islamic armies.

The use of Sanskrit was also common amongst all kingdoms.

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Postby Keshav » 20 Apr 2008 13:46

csharma wrote:Regardless of central authority, kingdoms knew they were part of same civilization. There was talk among Hindu Kings of forming a coalition against the invading Islamic armies.


I highly doubt this. Hindu kings very rarely had a sense of "Hinduness" or did not consider that important on the political stage. Hindus consistently betrayed each other for favor from Islamic princes (bribes and what not) or from other kings, regardless of religion. Please provide a source.

In the same light, there was no concept of Hindu or Dharmic civilization. Kings at this time were bound by particular lineages to a particular clan which formed the basis for their kingdom. These lineages, for kings and clan may have been slightly mythological with kings claiming descent from Devas and what not.

Unless you provide a reliable source, I don't think Hindus thought of themselves as part of a pan-Indian/religious civilization till very late into the Middle Ages and into the Colonial Period.

The use of Sanskrit was also common amongst all kingdoms.


A truly composite culture cannot be obtained by having elites mix. The average person was not taught Sanskrit.

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Postby Adrija » 20 Apr 2008 22:04

Keshav wrote

India doesn't seem interested in history or recording its own history.


That is so completely not true. We have literally tones of recorded material, all of which record our kingships, culture, literature, art, etc, it is just that these are not in the currently accepted sense- the western sense, that it.

Please let us remove our Macaulay glasses before blindly accepting such judgements imposed on us by colonialists whose pime purpose was to deny us our heritage

do go and read up at least some of our literature, which is nowadays falsely classifed as "religious/ mythology"

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Postby Keshav » 20 Apr 2008 22:24

Adrija wrote:Please let us remove our Macaulay glasses before blindly accepting such judgements imposed on us by colonialists whose pime purpose was to deny us our heritage


I will give you that, but Indians are generally not interested in their history, whether it was recorded or not.

There are very few Indian historians who are willing to frame history in a novel format for the lay person and from my father's experience in India, he said a few of them are reading Western versions (Western) of Indian history if at all.

Here's another question to tackle:
To what degree is India a product of its history?

Europeans view the world as "going somewhere" rather than just "being" and often view their history as culminating into something - meaning that Greece and Rome affected this, which in turn affected this and this, and finally we ended up with what we have today. Do you think is true or is this result of historians attempting to construct a narrative for European history?

Because India's system of governance was pretty much copied from someone else, we have no transitional period (and this goes for Indian art as well) between one and the other and the entire thing seems artificial.

Example:
Kings and kings (there were some Republics during the Mauryas and Guptas but not widespread) from 4500 BC until 1947. BOOM. Parliamentary democracy.

Silk paintings of RadhaKrishna. BOOM. Abstract art.

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Postby Adrija » 20 Apr 2008 22:34

but Indians are generally not interested in their history, whether it was recorded or not.

There are very few Indian historians who are willing to frame history in a novel format for the lay person and from my father's experience in India, he said a few of them are reading Western versions (Western) of Indian history if at all.


So, is the issue that we do not record our history, or that we do not frame it properly?

I think we agree on the first (that we do record our history, even if that is is non-western formats)?

Re the second point, do you know about the Mahabharat? Ramayana? Kirshna's exploits in Vrindavan? Vikram and Vetaal? Harihar? The race of Raghu? Bharat (not Ram's brother, but the one after whom Bharat is named?), the son of Dushyant

All these were conveyed to us in our childhood by an oral tradition which survives from the time we started recording these events (lets us not go in the dates these happened, for that is a battle we still have to fight)

Again, let us NOT judge our past by the current, macaulay-imposed notions of history.........

Re the latter part of your post, and what we are taught in schools, our system of governance is from our colonial masters (you would be suprised just how much of that we retained, which accouts for a lot of our current governance problems actually), but that may be OT so I will stop here

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Postby csharma » 20 Apr 2008 23:41

The idea of some Hindu kings getting together to resist Islamic armies in mentioned in John Keay's book on Indian history. It did not materialize, though.

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Postby JE Menon » 21 Apr 2008 00:08

>>Indians are generally not interested in their history, whether it was recorded or not.

I would not go quite so far as that... Historical record are not scanty. There are millions of manuscripts rotting away that are still unread.

However, our enthusiasm for inquiring about ourselves was somewhat wanting. Name, for example, one pre-British Indian archaeologist. The field as a whole was introduced by the colonisers. And we know now, how much archaeology has helped us find out about ourselves over the past 200 years or so...

Every act has unintended consequences, generally speaking. Colonialism is no exception. Undoubtedly the British did not expect that within decades of their leaving India, members of the Queen's family would be borrowing money from a rich Indian's wife to tide themselves through a touch financial patch....

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Postby Keshav » 21 Apr 2008 01:52

JE Menon wrote:I would not go quite so far as that... Historical record are not scanty. There are millions of manuscripts rotting away that are still unread.


That is true. Hunts for these manuscripts are becoming more frantic, I've heard with the idea that many are too old and be thrown out.

However, our enthusiasm for inquiring about ourselves was somewhat wanting. Name, for example, one pre-British Indian archaeologist. The field as a whole was introduced by the colonisers. And we know now, how much archaeology has helped us find out about ourselves over the past 200 years or so...


The fact remains that it was the British who started it and not us. That alone shows how much we care for our history. Only so much history can be contained in oral stories.

I suppose I don't have too much faith in Indian Indologists to get the job done but time will tell how we frame the Indian narrative.

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Postby darshan » 21 Apr 2008 04:01

I agree with JEM that enthusiasm has lot to do with it.
I personally had a friend who has no idea how many wars Bharat fought with Pukes because he never read anything useful history wise.

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Legend of Dwaraka

Postby skganji » 21 Apr 2008 04:39

Guys, I am really found an interesting article on Dwaraka which is too long but worth looking into it. It is an excellent article tries to look into the archeological findings at Dwaraka and events related to Mahabharata without western prejuidice.

http://www.mahabharataonline.com/articl ... .php?id=32

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Postby Airavat » 21 Apr 2008 10:01

Keshav wrote:Hindu kings very rarely had a sense of "Hinduness" or did not consider that important on the political stage.

In the same light, there was no concept of Hindu or Dharmic civilization. Kings at this time were bound by particular lineages to a particular clan which formed the basis for their kingdom.


At which time?

Ancient India, Medieval India, or the entire span of Indian History? :lol:

A few scattered examples of unity:

The Pratihar, Chauhan, Guhilot, and allied clans of Rajasthan-MP-Gujarat united to defeat the Arab invaders in the 8th century CE.

The Later Guptas and the Maukharis united to defeat the Hun invaders in the 6th century CE.

Several instances of Indian Warrior Clans uniting against the Indo-Greeks, Sakas, and Kushans.

And now some examples of disunity....not among Hindus, but Muslims!

In the 13th century CE as the Mongols crushed the Islamic power in Central Asia and Iran, Jalaluddin the son of the Sultan who had been defeated by the Mongols, fled with his followers into India where the Muslim Turks were ruling in the Indo-Gangetic plain.

Jalaluddin asked for help against the Mongols from Sultan Iltutmish, in the name of Islamic brotherhood. But Iltutmish refused! He stood by as Jalaluddin and his Muslim army were defeated and crushed by the Mongols on Indian soil, and later even sent an embassy to the kaffir Mongols, asking for their friendship.

We know that the Ruhelas (Western UP), the Shia rulers of Awadh (Eastern UP), united with the invader Ahmad Shah Abdali in the 18th century against the Marathas. This is because all three felt a common danger to their interests from the latter.

But after Panipat when Ahmad Shah Abdali was engaged in fighting the Sikh misls, neither the Ruhelas nor Awadh came to his aid.....why? What happened to the notion of Islamic brotherhood and jehad against infidels?

Because the Sikhs were not a threat to the Ruhelas or Awadh as the Marathas had been. Ahmad Shah complained bitterly of their faithless attitude but safe in their lands and relieved of the Maratha threat, these Muslims calmly ignored him.

Keshav wrote:The average person was not taught Sanskrit.


First what is an "average person"? In the cities, in the villages, where? And again in which period of Indian History?

Or did you discover the average person in each period from your unnamed sources, added them all up, and then came up with one average for the entire span of Indian History? :lol:

You're turning out to be something of a troublemaker with your loaded statements; first questioning Maratha Hindawi Swaraj on the basis of excesses in certain areas, and now questioning Dharmic civilization, Indian unity and even linguistic unity!

Language development and history

And if you ask others for "sources" cite your own sources to back your claims.

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Postby csharma » 21 Apr 2008 10:42

Airavat, you are the best person to administer the admonition.
Is the book called Operation Kartikeya that is selling on Amazon authored by you?

A separate suggestion I have is that given your vast knowledge in various aspects of Indian history, it might be a good idea to write a short book to correct most of the misconceptions that most Indians have. We can have a permanent link on BR for newbies.

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Postby Kaushal » 21 Apr 2008 11:41

One of the oldest definitions of history ( itihasa) wa by Vishnugupta ( more popularly recognized as Chanakya. He mentions this definition in the context of the training of a Prince and th esyllabus he should follow. it turns out that that Itihasa is an important part of the training of a prince ( and i am sure of others) I quote myself

"The original meaning of Itiihaasa had a more precise meaning than the word History. The etymology attested to by Panini indicates itiha to mean ‘thus indeed , in this tradition’ .
One of the earliest references to Itihaasa in the literature of antiquity is in Chanakyas’s Arthashastra. Our investigations lead us to believe that the Maurya empire for which he was the preceptor began in 1534 BCE. He defines Itihaasa, in the context of the syllabus prescribed for training of a Prince, with the following words;

पà¥

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Postby Sanku » 21 Apr 2008 11:51

Thank you Kaushal Garu; for the words of wisdom as always.

I had a question -- would the dating problem be irrelevant for Indian historians due to the use of embedded star charts in historical account? Just as modern day computer documents have embedded signatures in them; similarly by embedding a star chart most account times were frozen correctly for eternity (well as long as stars burnt at least)

For example Mahabharata is now accurately dated back to 3000 BCE; primarily by uncanny accuracy of its star sighting records.

Could this be a usual method -- or was is limited to only "higher" texts -- also what according you is the more accurate date for Vishnugupta's work -- around 1300 BCE as has been postulated by many; or the usual western Bible driven dating theory (of starting the world in 1300s) actually managed to get this right in 300-400 BCE period per fluke?
Last edited by Sanku on 21 Apr 2008 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 21 Apr 2008 11:58

Keshav wrote:
The fact remains that it was the British who started it and not us. That alone shows how much we care for our history. Only so much history can be contained in oral stories.



The last I checked; there was no Indian in the period mentioned working on calculus in any universities; no Indian physicists; no economists of note; no people in the GoI of that time. Nothing but clerks and soldiers for the British empire

No doubt this also means that all the above fields came into existence with the British in late 19th century.

Correct?

Or is there a correlation with the time and political power and colonialism?

No doubt the western educated -- "history begins with us" folks will know the answer right away -- after all both their sense of history; the depth of knowledge and the rational thinking process which connects the various threads together will help them see the answer immediately.

I suppose I don't have too much faith in Indian Indologists to get the job done but time will tell how we frame the Indian narrative.


If any one will do it it will be Indians; the non Indians have done more harm than good -- mucking about with something is not necessarily constructive.
Last edited by Sanku on 21 Apr 2008 15:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby csharma » 21 Apr 2008 14:48

Kaushal, How did you come up with 1500 BCE for Chanakya's time. Should it not be around Alexander's incursion into India ~300 BC?

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Postby shiv » 21 Apr 2008 16:02

Keshav wrote:The fact remains that it was the British who started it and not us. That alone shows how much we care for our history. Only so much history can be contained in oral stories.


Er - objection.

Almost all of human history is oral stories today - much of which is being lost (and has already been lost) because they are not being recorded or not being given credence.

I say "not being given credence" deliberately.
There are two reasons for "not giving credence" to oral histories:

1) People do not want to believe them, but will accept history in a format that they are accustomed to getting history from and have been told is the right method to study history

2) (And this is the more significant reason) - Oral histories are rubbished by cultures that do not want the old oral histories to survive The history of most of Africa, Arabia, Europe and the Americas before Christ and Mohammad falls in this category - ruthlessly wiped out by the history that came thereafter - primarily because written records exist after these two relatively recent religions sent out their legions, and the oral histories that pre-dated them have been consigned to - well - the rubbish heap of history. Vandals, Goths, Visigoths, pre-Islamic Arabs, Incas and Mayas, Ahura Mazda, and a whole lot of other traditions are "myths and legends" today precisely because memories and cultures and music and language of real people have been wiped out and replaced by what we are to accept as "The real history of the world"

The only protestors left are in India - and a few pockets in Europe.

"Consigning what is older to history" and converting the current into the new history is the work of "recorded history" as we know it. India is one of the few areas in the world where the oral history record is still alive and there still remains a body of scholarship to point that out without getting snuffed out by the history of religion.

Recorded history forms a miniscule part of the history of lives and cultures that existed, and even today the greatest possibility of reconstructing what they were like comes from making adequate records of oral histories. It would be naive to consider a few books and fewer historians as the fount of all history. Throughout antiquity humans have "recorded" their past in songs and stories and legends - often marking events, heroes and gods in those stories. Survival of such stories would automatically be fatal to both Roman Christianity and Islam - both of which have murdered and coerced to suppress other histories.

Now which recorded history book or historian is bold enough to acknowledge that? Heck a Rushdie gets a death sentence even today.

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Postby Kaushal » 21 Apr 2008 19:09

Sanku wrote:Thank you Kaushal Garu; for the words of wisdom as always.

I had a question -- would the dating problem be irrelevant for Indian historians due to the use of embedded star charts in historical account? Just as modern day computer documents have embedded signatures in them; similarly by embedding a star chart most account times were frozen correctly for eternity (well as long as stars burnt at least)

For example Mahabharata is now accurately dated back to 3000 BCE; primarily by uncanny accuracy of its star sighting records.

Could this be a usual method -- or was is limited to only "higher" texts -- also what according you is the more accurate date for Vishnugupta's work -- around 1300 BCE as has been postulated by many; or the usual western Bible driven dating theory (of starting the world in 1300s) actually managed to get this right in 300-400 BCE period per fluke?


I wouldnt say it is irrelevant. But the fact remains that the occidental has been very inconsistent in his objections to the astronomical dating paradigm. This was because he is afflicted with the loin cloth syndrome. The LCS is one in which the occidental cannot fathom the possibility of a civilization advancing unless it is accompanied by several layers of clothing, ignoring the fact that in tropical countries , people always wore a minimum amount of clothing and less rather than more. I am being facetious but the fact remains that they are very reluctant to accept that Indians had a very sophisticated astronomical knowledge. Albrecht Weber one of many Occidental indologists who spent his life time studying Indian texts (while denigrating them for the most part) takes the stand that the Indics may have developed the astronomical knowledge but they probably did it (you guessed it) while they were on their way to India. Left unsaid in most statements of the occidental is the underlying premise that it just could not be - that a country which was so easily conquered by the European is capable of any civilizational achievement

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Postby Kaushal » 21 Apr 2008 19:42

csharma wrote:Kaushal, How did you come up with 1500 BCE for Chanakya's time. Should it not be around Alexander's incursion into India ~300 BC?


This is based on astronomical dating . Prof Narahari Achar who is at Memphis, and has done considerable work on Astronomical dating using Planetarium software, confirms the Puranic version of our itihasa ( which has now been effectively wiped out of our memory thank s to Macaulay). The complete paper i s available in book form at lulu .com. do a search on Astronomical dating once you are at the site. The paper is also available at my site indicstudies.us/History/HEC2007. although i request that you do not download the whole book which has multiple authors.

You have to unlearn almost the entire history of India in order to put together the new framework . Th Occidental , in this instance Sir william followed by a whole slew of British historians, who parroted hi s assumptions was the first to use the greek synchronism (Sandrocottus = Chandragupta Maurya) as the sheet anchor o f Indian history . He died shortly thereafter had he known that there was another Chandragupta in indian history namely Chandragupta of the imperial Gupta dynasty, h emay have corrected his mistake, but then again he may have not.

Remember , that Sir william was trying to learn sanskrit and unearth documents at the same time during the period 1780. He found great reluctance on the part of thePandit community to share the knowledge. Again in my opinion there were 2 reasons.

1. The great Bengal famine of 1770 which wipe dout 1/3 of bengal by slow starvation (those of you who advocate the thesis that the British invented indian history, will not fail to see the irony in the fact that you are right - so much so that they omitted or downplayed the extent and the inconvenient fact such as the horrendous famines which rocked India after the british took over. In my telling of the British colonial period the major paradigm would be the impoverishment and malnourishment(euphemism for denying them adequate food) of the Indian populace. Read a book called Annam Bahu Kurvitha by MD Srinivas etal

2. Apart from the Pandit population being thinned out by starvation. there was reluctance on the part of the pandits to share the knowledge with somebody who was not a fit candidate. When you earn your PhD you have to pass a qualifying exam to indicate your fitness for scholarship. In the Indi tradition it is no different. there are no short cuts to becoming a doctor . You have to put in your time roughly 12 years after high school. In the same way, you cnnot become a vedic pandit without putting in your time , roughly 18 year in Gurukula, otherwise you are bound to misinterpret things

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Postby Kaushal » 21 Apr 2008 20:23

The story of the Indian contribution to many subjects such as the calculus has not been told in its entirety.A generous dose of humility is very appropriate here, accepting the fact that the only thing we know with certainty is we know little. The definitive work on the contribution to the computational sciences is yet to be compiled .Although C K Raju (do a google)has done a monumental job with the calculus.

There is a tendency to accept assumptions as facts with the result that arguments on this subject amount to obvious tautologies or circular arguments based on the assumption, that the British said so and therefore it must be true.

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Postby Kaushal » 22 Apr 2008 02:36

“India Lacks Historical agencyâ€

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Postby gandharva » 22 Apr 2008 03:06

Just in case it is useful to this discussion.

Political history of ancient India, from the accession of Parikshit to the extinction of the Gupta dynasty (1923)

http://www.archive.org/download/politic ... ycuoft.pdf

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Postby Rahul M » 22 Apr 2008 03:38

keshav, rangarajan's copy isn't with me at the moment but at least the reference to itihasa is certainly there unless memory is playing tricks with me. the definition is not present AFAIK.

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Postby Keshav » 22 Apr 2008 03:45

Rahul M wrote:keshav, rangarajan's copy isn't with me at the moment but at least the reference to itihasa is certainly there unless memory is playing tricks with me. the definition is not present AFAIK.


I deleted my comment because I found the relevent passages.

There are two references to "Itihass" on pages 106, 143. The one on 106 is simply outlining all those scriptures involved in the different branches of knowledge which Chanakya includes three Vedas (Rig, Sama, Yajur - the Atharvaveda is mainly a spell book), Puranas, Itihaasa (epics, primarily), Dharmashastras, previous Arthashastras, and other sciences.

Currently reading Chanakya's "Arthashastra", it dispells the notion that there were no political commentators or political thought before Chanakya. He mentions many schools of political thought and agrees or disagrees (vast majority of the time he disagrees). It very much non-religious in the sense that it does not involve itself in modes of worship or philosophy but constantly references dharma and adharma as rules for kingship and what not. Definitely not Machiavellian in morality and a helluva lot smarter.

The "Arthashastra" at 744 pages is definitely not "airy fairy". I can't imagine how long it was in the original format.

Kaushal
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Postby Kaushal » 24 Apr 2008 08:52

for those inthe orlando area, i will be conducting WORKSHOP IN TH E WAVES COMNFERENCE. stay tuned, thiis on June 27-29
Dear all, I have made some important changes to the document. which we can use as the background to the Workshop.

I would like to remind everybody that the Delhi conference, ICIH2009 is still in the future (January 9-11,2009), and i am looking forward to seeing a lot of you there. It is planned as a multidisciplinary event with 3 major strands (or Sulvas as in SulvaSutras)

History and Chronology (with special reference oo those areas where there was significant distortion)
Civilizational Aspects (including transmission of Knowledge from East to West)
Geopolitical Aspects

For the waves workshop we will focus in one aspect namely the Colonial paradigm of Indian history which has been peddled as the true and in fact the only History of india. This is part of the introduction to the multivolume series on Indologists who have studied India thru the ages, that i am in the process of writing. Can those of you who would like to contribute to the pedagogical aspects of this Workshop pl. get in touch with me asap. Thank you and looking forward to a highly intellectual session in Orlando. I am looking for a prompt, response as we are running short of time ,

KV




On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Dr.BVK Sastry (IVHU) <sastry_bvk@ivhu.edu> wrote:

Namaste
Thank you Dr.Vepa. I am sure you are bringing a rich experience and information explosion after the Delhi program and also your own researches at Europe and England. The document you forwarded is shared to this team so that there is a bigger picture of the workshop.

I am copying your mail to the WAVES Board.
Dr. Kosla Vepa has confirmed a workshop session as below for WAVES.
Can you help the workshop invitation mailing to go to a larger audience please

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Postby Abhijit » 01 May 2008 11:25

replying to a post in the paki thread because it fits here.
Unfortunately it is not only in NCERT books but even our midst, the story of our history is almost lost.

Fortunately I was educated in a vernacular medium school and was raised in a family that took its history seriously and even more fortunately, had some really great history teachers who made us aware of the real history. Plus, being a Mumbaikar, I learned the Maratha history before it was murdered by the current kaangrasi jokers. Because of Shivaji Maharaj, at least a large section of Mahrashtrians are aware of the islamic atyachaar - they still vote for kaangress but they are not as brainwashed as I found a lot of North Indians, Bengalis were. NCERT has really created a whole generation of Indians who are completely unaware of the horrific past - and the past keeps becoming present again and again.

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Postby Kaushal » 01 May 2008 12:33

Ironically, the least distorted period in our History is the islamic period. The Islamic Historians,in general were truthful about their own actions. They made no bones about their belief in general that killing as many kaffirs as possible was a laudable goal. All you have to do is to read Elliot and Dowson.


It is the other periods in Indic History that have been seriously mangled . In particular the British account of the colonial period is a work of great fiction and the chronology of the ancient period is seriously distorted, along with a lot of gratuitous embellishments, that any resemblance to the truth is purely accidental.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 02 May 2008 20:46

X-posted from psyops thread.

Last week I met Dr. Prodosh Aich, the author of "Lies with Long Legs," in Delhi. The book rips into the myths about early British Indologists such as William Jones and investigates their background, patrons and financiers. The book was a result of a team of about 8 German students and professors headed by Dr. Aich which did original research in archives in Calcutta, Germany and London to come up with some shocking truths about these early Indologists and their "theories" about Indian history. I am currently reading the book and plan to write a detailed review and snyopsis of the book here on BRF.

Over many tea sessions, Dr. Aich and I agreed to promote the book in India. (He is a professor in a German university.) For that, he gifted me 20 copies of the book (Rs 650 each) which I have to give as complimentary to varous libraries in Delhi where history students come to do their research such as Nehru Memorial Library. I have also been tasked to look for a Hindi transaltor for the book. Also, in the pipeline is a cheap paperback version.

Dr. Aich is currenlty looking for sponsors for a huge project (costing about Rs two to three crores) to investigate the roots of Hinduism in south India. An important discovery has been made of an ancient temple in South India that will lay to rests many myths about spreading of Hinduism from north to south. I have the entire project synopsis with me and will be posting it on BRF soon. The problem is there is no foundation in India that may be interested in sponsoring this project but I am trying.

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Postby Kaushal » 02 May 2008 21:08

I have his book, and it is a keeper. I have been trying to get hold of him, but i dont seem to have an accurate email., ,can you ask him to get in touch with me by email Kosla DOT Vepa AT indicstudies DOT us... I would like to invite him personally (on the phone) to be an invited speaker at the conference. I will also give an address in
Delhi where he can have his books sent for exhibition at the conference.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 02 May 2008 21:28

Kaushal wrote:I have his book, and it is a keeper. I have been trying to get hold of him, but i dont seem to have an accurate email., ,can you ask him to get in touch with me by email Kosla DOT Vepa AT indicstudies DOT us... I would like to invite him personally (on the phone) to be an invited speaker at the conference. I will also give an address in
Delhi where he can have his books sent for exhibition at the conference.


Kaushal, can you pls email me at sanjaychoudhry at hotmail dot com

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Postby ashish raval » 02 May 2008 22:18

Could not find a better place to post:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/apr/25temp.htm

ramana
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Postby ramana » 02 May 2008 22:27

It would be polite to post a small description rather than a bare link. Thanks.


Keshav wrote:
ramana wrote:I offer:
Accession of Chandragupta Maurya
Narasimha Varma Pallava
Accession of Rajaraja Chola. Actually I would get to meet Kundavai Devi:)
Defeat of Prithvi Raj Chauhan
Harihara Raya
Shivaji
Baji Rao
1857


Its interesting that all of your points are political and that you only offered eight.


Well I didnt want to hog the whole list. I generously let others have two to contribute :)

Yes all are policitical but they are all events when India was on ascendent!
Besides if you think about it a everything is political. With out rajanugrha(royal patronage) nothing ever really happens. By rajanugraha, I mean prosperity, stabilty and security that foster an atmosphere for development in all other spheres of life.

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Postby John Snow » 02 May 2008 22:35

Sanjay I can contribute directly small amounst, but can rope in bunch of people to donate after getting them high on my Idly Vada Dosa upma and samabr kind of feast.

We can start generating ideas, I had generated funds donations and interest free loans to the tune of 700,000 USD.

Keep ramana garu informe and he will farm it.


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