Tackling Islamic Extremism in India

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 28 Nov 2007 22:03

shiv wrote:There may be many reasons why invaders overran India

Among these are:

1) Insularity, cultural innocence and naivete of a highly evolved Hindu society when faced with an existential threat as eloquently described by Jwalamukhi on page 5 of this thread

2) Fractionation and specialization of duties to such an extent (possibly by the Varna system) that nobody other than warriors would fight, and when warriors were gone nobody else could

3) Significant sections of society who probably did not have the will or need to fight as the change of leadership made no difference to their status

A heavily divided society (caste, or varna or whatever) is ennervating. It wastes its energy on defining, maintaining and enforcing burdensome useless & stupid caste rules. It saps the energy of the very people it needs the most. And most of all, it breeds dissension and kills solidarity & commonality of thought which is the essence of a robust defence. When this society is defeated, it is easier to cart off many of them to the new religion.

The process has not stopped still. In our living memory, the untouchable cannot walk in the town and draw from the same well. He converts to Islam or Christianity, low and behold he can now walk freeliy. He is, as swamy Vivekananda says, not only one man out of your fold, he also one more man in the enemy fold.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 28 Nov 2007 22:05

The discussion of caste is not irrelevant to Islamism. It is relevant because it relates directly to the level of Islamism seen in India. I don't thnk we need to have multiple threads and we should not stop it here. That is my request to the admins.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 28 Nov 2007 22:06

surinder wrote:

A heavily divided society (caste, or varna or whatever) is ennervated. It wastes its energy on defining, maintaining and enforcing burdensome useless & stupid caste rules. It saps the energy of the very people it needs the most. And most of all, it breeds dissension and kills solidarity & commonality of thought which is the essence of a robust defence.

Extremely well said. Thanks.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 28 Nov 2007 22:07

shiv wrote: Islamism is egregious enough to send strong signals to any resonably sane observer that it is intolerant and up to no good. But not only do those signals fail to get through to indians, but, as can be seen on this thread - the most vehement anti-islamist people themselves seem to live in cloud cuckooland imagining that it's all over and won.

First, the inability of people to understand the venomous nature of Islamism has nothing to do with their being Indians. Look at the French, getting a dose of Islamic reality with annual car burning festival. Or, the British. How are they coping with Islam?

I think that the problem BEGINS with the fact that Islam has a schizophrenic character - it is both extremely hard and extremely soft. Islamism is the hard part - what we have been discussing. But we have never discussed the impact of soft Islam - the so called 'moderate' muslims. Their job is to justify the violence of Islamists in words that the kafirs can understand. For example, after the Paris riots, the French muslim were out giving the same balderdash - that the violence is due to lack of jobs, discrimination, etc. This is something that the French understand very well. So, they are lulled into thinking that this violence is 'normal'.

This is the same trick that the muslim 'intellectuals' in India employ. They justified the Godhra train burning by saying that the Kar sevaks had misbaheved with some female muslim tea vendor on the station (have you ever seen a female muslim tea vendor on station in your life). When that did not work, there were dark rumours that the kar sevaks had forced some muslims vendors on the station to chant 'Jai Shri Ram'.
All of these nincompoop excuses were to justify the murder of innocent people on the train. Notice that the secualr english media swallowed this excuse hook, line and sinker.

I think that the main problem on the part of non-muslims is to identify that muslim violence is a completely different sort of violence - one that comes with a hatred for all life.

indygill · Post by **indygill** » 28 Nov 2007 22:30

Shiv this is what you were looking for

The Times of India has reported that India was country that silently fought against terror on itâ€™s own soil in last two decades. India has faced the worst of terrorist attacks on its own soil except Iraq in last 10-15 years.
According to the report, since 2004 more innocent people have been killed in India than the victims in all of North America, South America, Central America, Europe and Eurasia.

In these countries, a total of 3,280 people have lost their lives in different terrorist incidents between January 2004 and March 2007. In the same time period, India alone has lost 3,674 innocent lives.

This is being said India has lost the highest number of peopleâ€™s lives in the terror acts apart from war-torn countries like Iraq.

The TOI has reported as India not only had the highest number of deaths after Iraq, but also the highest number of terror-related incidents and injured among all countries after Iraq across the world. Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Malegaon, Varanasi, J&K and many other cities have been targeted by the terrorists in past.

http://www.indiadaily.org/entry/india-w ... cept-iraq/

--------------------------

I agree with Shiv when he says

we are close to reaching the limit of knowledge we can gain by studying islam alone.

the most vehement anti-islamist people themselves seem to live in cloud cuckooland imagining that it's all over and won

Being anti-islam is no solution. What purpose does being anti-islam, serve to the society as a whole especially those who have and are still suffering because of Islamism

What are we winning???? Anyone who thinks or says that â€¦. is totally aloof from ground realities of India when it comes to effects of islamism.

How can we say we are â€œwinningâ€

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Nov 2007 22:37

But the truth is, the economic prize will be torn from our hands. If Indians are content to be serving others, I assure everyone that the Chinese definitely do NOT want to be someone's drone pulling in lower pay and doing mindless work in return. They want to understand and then CONTROL all systems. They use foreign intelligence and learn the systems from them but the minute they manage to figure out what is going on, they move ruthlessly to teaching each other this and then muscling out the foreigners.

The above is from: Link
Please read the article to understand the context.

It is a different issue if the author understood the Indian mentality correctly or incorrectly, but that is her perception. The key is the word "content".

If we are easily content, or if others perceive us to be easily pleased or being content, there is going to be less motivation to go past the 'content' stage.

indygill · Post by **indygill** » 28 Nov 2007 22:45

there were dark rumours that the kar sevaks had forced some muslims vendors on the station to chant 'Jai Shri Ram'.

Whats wrong with that Indian system and its institutions forces me say "Rahim" with my god "Ram"...... With the same logic my faith and God is being degraded..... but can i say that without being branded fundamentalist or backward. Why double standards??/

Problem is that two very important institutions of India namely the academics and media are controlled by commies and leftists ideologists. Has anyone gone through the list of owners and members of their managements of TV channels in India. Please check their owners and Managments affliations. For example Even NDTV is owned by CPI(M) Karats brother and sister in law....What do you expect from their reporting on Issues.

Problem with Hindu institutions is that they are still living in medival mindset they lack the understanding of importance of these institutions in "modern society". They have to staart using these same institutions to counter the biased mass propaganda that has been spreading since 47

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Nov 2007 22:53

If war is over , victory and defeat is settled, then why are the battles still fought in mind and on ground

As Bubba Gump once said Its aint over till its over , there is lot to to done within our own life span so our children dont suffer like our ancestors .

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 28 Nov 2007 23:01

SwamyG wrote:
But the truth is, the economic prize will be torn from our hands. If Indians are content to be serving others, I assure everyone that the Chinese definitely do NOT want to be someone's drone pulling in lower pay and doing mindless work in return. They want to understand and then CONTROL all systems. They use foreign intelligence and learn the systems from them but the minute they manage to figure out what is going on, they move ruthlessly to teaching each other this and then muscling out the foreigners.
The above is from: Link
Please read the article to understand the context.

It is a different issue if the author understood the Indian mentality correctly or incorrectly, but that is her perception. The key is the word "content".

If we are easily content, or if others perceive us to be easily pleased or being content, there is going to be less motivation to go past the 'content' stage.

Indians are not content serving others. I don't know western intellectuals can't get that idea out of their minds. It is just that Indians have a different approach to business. We don't make too much noise when we progress. This applies to all Indian business leaders except those who are in the IT sector, and they are Americans anyway.

Just because we do not have a testicular approach others, does not mean we can't eat them for lunch.

Problem is that two very important institutions of India namely the academics and media are controlled by commies and leftists ideologists.

Correct

Problem with Hindu institutions is that they are still living in medival mindset they lack the understanding of importance of these institutions in "modern society".

Not true, Hindu society is developing at many levels simultaneously. Any attempt to straitjacket its development is likely to blow up in the face. The commies and liberals found it to their chagrin on Dec 6, 1992.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Nov 2007 23:22

Rye wrote:surinder wrote:
A heavily divided society (caste, or varna or whatever) is ennervated. It wastes its energy on defining, maintaining and enforcing burdensome useless & stupid caste rules. It saps the energy of the very people it needs the most. And most of all, it breeds dissension and kills solidarity & commonality of thought which is the essence of a robust defence.
Extremely well said. Thanks.

IOW it fosters group divisions and lack of common interests as group members see themselves as part of the group and not the organic whole.

Also retaining the 'stuff' is a civilizational issue.

While on groupism, recall in historical India the kings were from different groups and their social standing moved up or down according to their strength and possiblity of contribution to the Indian mileu. For example the first historical empire Mauryan was not Kshatriya and its successor Sungas were Brahmins. M.N. Srinivas calls this Sanskritization. All this stopped with the two colonizations-Islamic and European for they provided an outlet or siphon to the group aspirations by process of conversions.

indygill · Post by **indygill** » 29 Nov 2007 00:25

India promises to protect writer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7116434.stm

"Those who have been granted shelter here have always undertaken to eschew political activities in India or any actions which may harm India's relations with friendly countries.

"It is also expected that the guests will refrain from activities and expressions that may hurt the sentiments of our people."

Critics accused the writer of calling for the Koran to be changed to give women greater rights, something she denies

southern city of Hyderabad when she was attacked by Muslims who said they had been upset by her remarks on the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.

The All-India Minority said Ms Nasreen had "seriously hurt Muslim sentiments". Many Muslims say her writing ridicules Islam.

------------------

I guess â€œMob Violenceâ€

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2007 04:38

Based on popular request and my own concurrence, I have taken the liberty of splitting off the last few posts of the old islamism thread to create a new thread.

I will post more thoughts in due course.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2007 05:10

[quote="indygill"]
I guess â€œMob Violenceâ€

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 29 Nov 2007 08:55

Who thrives in an Islamic setup?
Mullah likes and thrives in such a setup. For the sake of simplicity I am disregarding who survives in such a setup, the obvious being various shades of Dhimmis. What happens in such a society is intense tribalism. The progress of the society in limited to the whims and fancies of mullah. In mullah raj if one is inside the group, one cannot do any wrong. Even if any wrong is done the victim is responsible (example: punishing the rape victim) because no wrong can be done by the insider in the first place. Verily the cat cannot be blamed if the meat is left outside the fridge. Mullahs are at freedom to invent divine exceptions to bail them out when in tight spot. Essentially, the lowest common denominator will dictate governance. This ensues intense competition among mullah types on the negative gradient towards nadir. Fall out of that will be: progress indicators such as position of women in the society, etc., will speak volumes.

In such a setting respect for institutions and individual rights are nominal.
The dhimmis/doves either voluntarily or otherwise choose to be tolerant of intolerant practices. The dhimmis support the mullah types because:
1) The dhimmis completely realize the impotency of the governance in preventing islamism traits.
2) The dhimmis are afraid of mullah types. And they pay protection payment.
3) The dhimmis have lost the ability to judge the righteousness, have accepted either knowingly/unknowingly strains of islamism has been ingrained in them.

The dhimmis infact, start deriding any competing hawks to the mullah types because:
1) All the above previous reasons
2) The dhimmis have no confidence in the protection provided by the competing hawks.
3) The dhimmis have realized that even the competing hawks have picked up the habits of the opposing camp and display similar traits once in the gaddi.
This is worrying aspect, just as brown sahibs replaced white sahibs did not connect with the aspirations of the dove, the islamism trait is used by competing hawk. Just the tyranny got transferred to a different colored hawk. Sadly,in the memory of the doves, some of the competing hawks that fought the mullah type hawks could have indulged in mullah type habits as it suited them, once they replaced them. Instead of upholding raja dharma, the political class indulged/indluges in mullah type trait.
This will ensue complete apathy by doves to the political issues aka governance.
Hence, the recipe for kakistocracy is natural in Islamic setup. Sadly, atleast the rajanithi in India mirrors kakistocracy. Shivji, I agree traits of Islamism has been ingrained into the mass. Hence, no shame or outrage or opposition to killings of non-islamic people in India.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 29 Nov 2007 19:37

shiv wrote:

Make a list of countries in the world in which non Muslims are regularly killed by Muslims in the name of Islam. You will find many Islamic countries' names on that list. And India of course. If you arrange this list in order according to number of non-muslims killed, India comes out at the top of the list and we have no widespread protest in India.

But hey you don't find any protests in Muslim countries either when non Muslims are killed by Muslims. The behavior of India is that of a de facto islamic country

Make a list of countries in which non Muslim citizens have been driven out of their homes by Muslims. India heads the list again. Where's the protest? Islamic countries do not protest the removal of non Muslim people from their homes. Neither does India. India is a de facto Islamic country.

Make a list of countries in which Muslims are allowed to practice sharia. Include in that list all countries in which sharia like practices are constitutionally allowed, in addition to permitting sharia without interference even when it is unconstitutional Of course all Islamic countries are on this list. And hey India is there too.

Make a list of countries that crack down mercilessly on anyone who is thought to insult Islam even if freedom of speech allows lampooning or ridiculing of non Islamic faiths. All Islamic nations fall in this category. And look again. India heads the list.

Make a list of countries in the world where womens rights are trampled on and the political and judicial system weigh heavily in favor of sharia like discrimination of women. Islamic countries are obviously there in the list. And so is "free", democratic", "secular" and "Hindu" India.

I did not want to beleive this theory of India being a weakly Islamic country, but reading your list I have to grant it. Few things depress me, but this list did. I wanted to add some more points:

Make a list of countries who support Arabs, Palestine, PLO, and oppose Israel. Muslims countries do, India does too.
Make a list of countries that subsidize Hajj. India is ahead of even the Muslim countries.
Make a list of countries where non-Muslim places of worship were destryed and Mosques built on top of it. And were never reverted to the original faith. Muslim countries have that, India has that too. Even though there are known places of worship (hundreds) where there is clear evidence that a Mosque was constructed on ruined temples, none have been restored.
Make a list of countries where Muslim marauders have streets, towns named after them. Muslim countries, and India. Examples: Aurangzeb Road in Delhi. Bakhtiarpur after the gentleman who burnt Nalanda and beheaded all the Budhist monks. Aruangabad in Maharashtra.
Make a list of countries who are being considered for OIC membership. Yep, India is right there. We would be members already if not for Paki opposition. (Thanks, Pakistan.)
Make a list of countries who oppose taking pride in being Hindus. Muslims countries are there, India is a leader in that.
Make a list of countries which whitewash the Islamic record of spreading faith by the sword and Islamic violence and brutality. Muslim countries lead the pack, India is there at the head of it.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 Nov 2007 20:24

It is not really a "weak Islamic" society.

India is more Islamic than Muhammed, more Christian than Jesus/Pope, more socialistic than Karl Marx, more secular than the West, more lawless than FATA; but in all it is the most pseudo-secularist country than the rest of the World put together.

If one really wants to pin down the country into some label, I would say we are currently under the "Western" influence.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 29 Nov 2007 20:27

shiv sir please repost your game theory scenario. I had read it partly, but when I came back to reread it, it was gone.

Amitayus · Post by **Amitayus** » 29 Nov 2007 21:28

Surinder, a quick note, afaik, no Islamic country offers Haj subsidy simply because it is un-Islamic. Even Pakistan had to stop it after ruling from Lahore High Court.

Regarding destruction of non-Muslim place of worship, I don't know whether any major place of worship was destroyed post-1947 and a mosque was built on it. Maybe I'm not aware of it.

indygill · Post by **indygill** » 29 Nov 2007 21:49

Regarding destruction of non-Muslim place of worship, I don't know whether any major place of worship was destroyed post-1947

On May 27, 2006, the Pakistani government authorities worked in tandem with a local jeweler to fully demolish the ancient Krishna temple in the Rang Mahal area of Lahore city so a commercial plaza could be built in its place. With its destruction, there remains no trace of any Hindu temple in the ancient city of Lahore

Destruction of the only functional Hindu temple in Lahore, the Pakistani government exhibited brazen mendacity by denying that the demolition ever took place. Pakistan's Federal Religious Affairs Minister Ejazul Haq and the EPTB Chairman Lt Gen (retd) Zulfikar Ali Khan claimed that the temple was intact. However, the insidious role of the Pakistani government was exposed by the Karachi-based "Dawn" newspaper in its May 28 and June 13 editions, which included photographs of the demolished ruins of the Krishna temple and details of the government's

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 29 Nov 2007 22:07

Amitayus wrote:Surinder, a quick note, afaik, no Islamic country offers Haj subsidy simply because it is un-Islamic. Even Pakistan had to stop it after ruling from Lahore High Court.

Regarding destruction of non-Muslim place of worship, I don't know whether any major place of worship was destroyed post-1947 and a mosque was built on it. Maybe I'm not aware of it.

I was referring to the temples already destroyed and not restored. More specifically, the temples in Varanasi & other historic places where mosques have been built on top of them. None have been restored. An attempt was made to restore the Raam Janam Bhoomi Temple, but that got nowhere. The fate of the party that supported is there for us to see. This is similar to the situation in Muslim countries where non-Muslim places have not been restored at all. Post-1947 many Gurudwaras and temples in Pakistan were destroyed and lost. But that is TSP, I was talking only of India.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Nov 2007 22:10

The thread is "tackling"; we seem to be going back to the standard Islamist tendencies listing here.

To tackle Islamism in India; all we need to do is make India truly secular; once done problem solves itself.

To solve that problem we need to take on the Mackualities.

There fore the thread should be: tackling Mackualites and making India secular.

No need to attact unneccessary attention by mentioning a religion.

Amarjeet Cheema · Post by **Amarjeet Cheema** » 29 Nov 2007 22:41

Amitayus wrote:Surinder, a quick note, afaik, no Islamic country offers Haj subsidy simply because it is un-Islamic. Even Pakistan had to stop it after ruling from Lahore High Court.

Regarding destruction of non-Muslim place of worship, I don't know whether any major place of worship was destroyed post-1947 and a mosque was built on it. Maybe I'm not aware of it.

Its standard operating procedure for Islamists and Islam dominated nations.

In 1947, after Jinnah's genocide calls, during the riots in Amritsar, local Muslims, thinking that they could get Amritsar into Pakistan, had attacked the Darbar Sahib with a view to destroying it. Only a few brave Sikhs of Amritsar stood in their way. I have heard that it was touch and go for a few hours. No prizes for guessing what those Muslims had in mind. That the massacres of Muslims by Sikhs in Amritsar were so brutal later is not a coincidence.

You see the same pattern in the Jewish places of worship in Israel, in old Christian churches in Turkey, numerous Hindu temples in India / Pakistan, and many Sikh gurudwaras in Pakistan.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 29 Nov 2007 22:42

Sanku wrote:

To solve that problem we need to take on the Mackualities.

But then do we all want to regress back to being the hindu dhimmies that got their butts whipped in the first place?

Seems like the optimal option is to figure out the good and bad parts of dhimmis, islamists and macaulayites and anyone else, and pick up the good stuff and leave out the bad....where "good" is anything that makes India and Indians more competitive and dangerous.

Amitayus · Post by **Amitayus** » 29 Nov 2007 22:43

indygill wrote:
On May 27, 2006, the Pakistani government authorities worked in tandem with a local jeweler to fully demolish the ancient Krishna temple in the Rang Mahal area of Lahore city so a commercial plaza could be built in its place. With its destruction, there remains no trace of any Hindu temple in the ancient city of Lahore

Destruction of the only functional Hindu temple in Lahore, the Pakistani government exhibited brazen mendacity by denying that the demolition ever took place. Pakistan's Federal Religious Affairs Minister Ejazul Haq and the EPTB Chairman Lt Gen (retd) Zulfikar Ali Khan claimed that the temple was intact. However, the insidious role of the Pakistani government was exposed by the Karachi-based "Dawn" newspaper in its May 28 and June 13 editions, which included photographs of the demolished ruins of the Krishna temple and details of the government's

I know, not only Pakistan, but it has happened in Bangladesh as well. The most famous temple, the Dhakeshwari Kali temple in Dhaka was razed to ground during 1971 and subsequently no Govt. reconstructed it in spite of repeated pleas. But here obviously we are discussing about India. I think some temples were desecrated/destroyed in Srinagar, Doda & Pulwama of J&K in the turbulent 1989-90 but otherwise there hasn't been any major such case in post-independence India.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 29 Nov 2007 22:53

Sanku wrote:The thread is "tackling"; we seem to be going back to the standard Islamist tendencies listing here.

To tackle Islamism in India; all we need to do is make India truly secular; once done problem solves itself.

To solve that problem we need to take on the Mackualities.

There fore the thread should be: tackling Mackualites and making India secular.

No need to attact unneccessary attention by mentioning a religion.

Nice.

Actually, the problem also stems from the size of the problem. I mean how do you tackle a religion so freaking large and violent.

The solutions that suggest themselves are themselves very, ahem... 'Islamic' in nature.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Nov 2007 23:03

abhischekcc wrote:
Sanku wrote:The thread is "tackling"; we seem to be going back to the standard Islamist tendencies listing here.

To tackle Islamism in India; all we need to do is make India truly secular; once done problem solves itself.

To solve that problem we need to take on the Mackualities.

There fore the thread should be: tackling Mackualites and making India secular.

No need to attact unneccessary attention by mentioning a religion.

Nice.

Actually, the problem also stems from the size of the problem. I mean how do you tackle a religion so freaking large and violent.

The solutions that suggest themselves are themselves very, ahem... 'Islamic' in nature.

Whatever solutions are to be applied , it has to be democratic. Islamists Maccauly Kputras and the rest of the leftist , liberal onions deserve equal equal peeling treatment. There is no room for for descrimination among any of these creeds.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2007 23:37

Problem in India is that

1. Pseudo secularism rules and the party that gets the minority muslim's vote gets into power., so soft (dove) muslims (Javed Akhtra, Shabana Azmi, Shahrukh Khan, Amir Khan, etc) are slowly passing the time by voting the pseudo secular parties in power.

2. When Muslim population will pass that critical point (33-35% of India's population) we will have huge law and order and violence all over India to break up another part of India (like Pakistan and Bangladesh), if it is not corrected today.

Thus ... we must get a HAWK party (like Modi and BJP) that gets into power and immediately stop the wahabisation of India.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 29 Nov 2007 23:43

SBakwa makes an interesting point - that pseudo swecularism in India is due to vote bak politics.

Vote bank politics are actually the end result of the 'first-past-the-post' electoral practices. IOW, the candidate who garners the maximum number of votes wins, even if that be 5% of total voting population.

One of the best ways to remove vote bank politics is to amend the election laws to ensure only the candidate with 50%+ votes gets to win.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 30 Nov 2007 00:05

abhischekcc wrote:SBakwa makes an interesting point - that pseudo swecularism in India is due to vote bak politics.

And that is because the Hindu vote is divided dramatically due to caste. An eminent BRFite gave us the equation describing power in India:

MyCaste + Muslims = Power

80% Jews in Israel are not burnt by this swing vote of 20% Muslims. Not a quarter is given to the Palis. They vote and have members in the Knesset, but cause no change in Isreli politics. Muslims in Malaysia are mere 60%, but do not depend on vote banks to form government or policy. Societies with deep internal divisions & fissures are open to exploitation. That happened in the past, it is happening now.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Nov 2007 00:39

One of the best ways to remove vote bank politics is to amend the election laws to ensure only the candidate with 50%+ votes gets to win.

Abhi: What happens if a candidate does not get 50%+? That's when the coalition politics kicks in - which is equally ineffective to tackle the issue. The other option would be a two-party system - which kind of curtails us.

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 30 Nov 2007 01:16

I think a better system would be a proportionate representation based on vote %. It has a risk of further factionalizing the already fractious caste equations but also the so-called vote-bank politics will be crushed.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 30 Nov 2007 01:23

80% Jews in Israel are not burnt by this swing vote of 20% Muslims. Not a quarter is given to the Palis. They vote and have members in the Knesset, but cause no change in Isreli politics. Muslims in Malaysia are mere 60%, but do not depend on vote banks to form government or policy. Societies with deep internal divisions & fissures are open to exploitation. That happened in the past, it is happening now.

India is not so much divided, but raher is has inherited the legacy of Gandhi and Nehru, where the country feels morally obliged to exersise secularism. But secularism and equality ends when it does not favour muslims. It is fully acceptable for the coutry that hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris are ethnically clensed, without even an attempt to salvage the situation.
Freedom of expression and rule of law, does not apply to Islam critical writers.

All the while the Muslims encorage high birth rates, so that the balance shifts in their favour on day.

Apu · Post by **Apu** » 30 Nov 2007 01:41

Islamist extremism thrieves in India due to the nature of the political climate. Muslims vote in blocks, the Hindu majority is paralysed due to differences in caste and language and thus has fractured voting

Given that the islamic vote is important for the majority of political parties (all but the BJP), Islamic extremist designs are tolerated and even promoted in India e.g. the assault on Taslima in Hyderabad, an FIR was filed against her, but no one dared to file one against the perpertrators.

Clearly, an important avenue for tackling domestic extremism is balancing the voting pattern of the majority by either fracturing the islamic vote or by consolidating the Hindu vote. I feel a two pronged process is needed to oust this sick form of 'secularism'

long term- work to consolidate the Hindu vote (divisions of caste and language run deep and will take time to correct).

Short to medium term: Work to fracture the islamic vote

By modulating the voting patterns, there will be less of an incentive for political parties to tolerate extremist designs, since it hurts their votes less by speaking against such designs.

A case in point for the above model is that of the recent elections in UP, mayawati managed to unite the 'upper castes' with the 'dalits' which brought her a landslide victory over Mulayam Yadav. In this case Mayawati for forced to use this 'soft hindutva' because both parties appealed to the minorities, thereby diluting their influence.

I have serious doubts about media in India, most of the english channels are owned by foreigners and appear to be biased towards islam and the minorities. At the same time, these channels are projecting rich Hindu culture as outdated and to some extent demonising its values. unfortunately, it is these channels that impact greatly on the youth and NRIs...this leaves India's youth vulnerable to foreign psy-ops of India's .If unchecked, I fear that even the most overt extremist designs may go unopposed in the future, where tolerating them becomes a culture.

RobinM · Post by **RobinM** » 30 Nov 2007 02:09

Regarding destruction of non-Muslim place of worship, I don't know whether any major place of worship was destroyed post-1947 and a mosque was built on it. Maybe I'm not aware of it.

Nonetheless, attacks on places of worship (Raghunath Mandir, Akshardham, Sai baba temple, temples in Varanasi) are a part of the same pattern.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Nov 2007 03:21

We evil yindoos always work within our legal and peaceful means

We need to invigorate the media. Here is why. We need to be able to hold on to the politicians and government as much accountable as possible. This means we have to keep the media on their toes.

Media has the power to sway government within a tenure, and also generate public awareness and can be a catalyst for mass movements. As the new age media is still not accessible for bulk of the population we have to resort to old age media - newspapers and road side dharanas and meetings.

We have BJP countering the anti-secular minority-pandering vote-banks crazy parties, but as we saw in the last general elections they got rooted. The reasons don't matter, but the government changed. In the absence of political parties like BJP the government falls into the hands of anti-secular minority-pandering vote-banks crazy parties.

We have to play whatever small role we can play, for starters we can do as much as possible to spread awareness of the extremism.

ps: this looks like a good governance thread.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Nov 2007 07:51

Maybe I should rename this thread "Learning to love the Islamic Republic of India"

I believe it is shameful and insulting to be forced to swallow the idea that the behavior of India as a nation is similar to that of any Islamic nation in accepting without murmur bias against non Muslims and reacting with indignation or anger at any transgression against Islam.

But that is the way we are. I have seen a tendency to blame this behavior on "someone else". We are not ourselves that way. It is the psecs, the pinkos, the lefties, the WKKs etc who are pulling the country down the drain. Not a single one of us will admit to carrying a milligram of the tendency of these nation-selling entities. But I want to change the direction of looking at this, for what it is worth.

Please indulge me and permit me to dip into piskology for a short while. I stated at the beginning of this thread that it is "shameful and insulting to be forced to swallow the idea that the behavior of India as a nation is similar to that of any Islamic nation..". If any one of you feels either ashamed or insulted by this, please read on.

"Shameful and insulting" are words that refer to emotions that we do not like to feel. We would rather avoid them.

We feel ashamed or insulted when what we hear about ourselves (or about something close to us) is at great variance from what we have believed. A man who learns that his mother was a prostitute may feel such emotion.

The mind reacts to an information conflict like this with a mental trick called cognitive dissonance which is probably a an ancient protective mechanism that human brain has evolved for protection against radical behavior changes being caused by conflicting environmental information other than what was programmed in childhood.

Muslims regularly show cognitive dissonance when exposed to some uncomfortable core truths about Islam. The first reaction may be to feel ashamed or insulted, even sorrow, but this is often replaced by disbelief and anger. The brain instructs itself to ignore and discard the new information and stick to the old information that the mind was comfortable with, and not causing discomfort like this new information and resolves to fight the new information. The person ends up clutching at every possible straw to prove that the new information is false, and part of this mechanism is to blame someone else.

But cognitive dissonance can occur in any human, and it surely occurs among Hindus when they are told to look at the nation of their birth - the nation whose freedom they feel they won with great sacrifices and they realize that the nation is still behaving exactly the way it would have behaved before the British left but after the Islamic invaders had completed control over vast areas of India and dhimmified huge masses of Hindus.

As I said, cognitive dissonance arises from thoughts that we hate to hear. We have to feel a visceral revulsion against the thought after which the brain automatically starts looking for escape routes to nullify that bad feeling.

We have seen and we are still seeing many of to see "escape route" thoughts of Hindu cognitive dissonance. We are ourselves NEVER responsible for India's behavior. It is ALWAYS someone else. it is Muslims, WKKs, psecs etc. if you actually go up to all these people (Muslims, WKKs etc) they too will express similar thoughts and say that they are not responsible. Many will deny that India is showing the behavior of a de facto Islamic state, which it very obviously is showing. "The facts can show anything, but I'm not going to believe them"

I believe that islamic extremism in India cannot be tackled until we start assuming our minimal personal responsibilities and stop going into denial mode. The pale green islamic state of India is that way because we all have within us a small element of behavior that tends to be intimidated by radical Islam and makes our thoughts and actions to move just that tiny bit towards accommodation of that which is wrong. We have lost our dharma and we do not have the personal courage to admit it. We have the personal courage accuse all sorts of other groups of being Islamist apologists. We need to look for the dhimmi and coward in our mothers, fathers, brothers, teachers and the like to see how we too have a bit of Islamic apologist behavior in us.

I want to end this post by pointing out that the assertions we hear on these fora that India was not wholly subjugated, and that India "won" and that only parts of India came under subjugation are all part of our denial. The facts may seem true, but so is our dhimmitude.

We threw out the British and threw out Macaulay although we could not throw out the language. Like background radiation from the big bang, we are left with the dhimmitude and submission to islam staring at us in the face.

Radical Islamists of India foresaw a bloodbath after Macaulay left and they opted out and some ran to Pakistan. Radical Islam is still sniping at India from where those radical Muslims went. But India did not allow the expected countrywide bloodbath. In exchange we accommodated radical islam in independent India by keeping dhimmitude and modifying the behavior of an entire nation of several hundred million people, with Muslims only in a minority, to mimic the behavior of any Muslim majority state. No point blaming Gandhi or Nehru. They are all dead. They did what they wanted to do when they were alive. What are we going to do about it now? Are we going to improve our karma so it reflects in our next life or what?

Recall that we are not really very uncomfortable with living in this mildly islamic state. We ask how Muslims can be comfortable living in dar ul Islam. Well here is the answer. It is easy to live like that. It is only the acceptance of the truth and changing course that is difficult and leads to denial and anger.

We are welcome to continue to be an islamic state in word and deed - but we have to boot out Islam where it impinges on our laws, our constitution and our ways.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Nov 2007 08:14

SwamyG wrote:We evil yindoos always work within our legal and peaceful means

Hindus are not a peaceful people. Peace has been imposed upon them by eliminating warrior memes. We look at what is left and think "Hey, this is us" We have forgotten what may have been centuries ago.

And when the few warriors we have left wage war we go into paroxysms of guilt.

When Muslims are killed, Hindus are at fault

When Hindus are killed, Muslims cannot be at fault.

Unless we learn to look at ourselves as a defeated people, we are wont to declare victory too early. A defeated people cannot see right from wrong. They are too eager to accept terms imposed on them.

The least we can do for our past is to accept the depth to which we have been pushed so we learn to recognise how far we must climb.

"Be a peaceful people" is not an exhortation that occurs anywhere in Hindus literature. It is the command accepted by a defeated and subjugate race.

Let us not allow anger and indignation cloud our ability to reason effectively. I am amazed at the tendency of people to see a torn off Hindu arm or a pool of Hindu blood and say "We have won. We are ascendant" What sort of crap is this? Where has honesty gone?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Nov 2007 09:02

Rye wrote:Sanku wrote:
To solve that problem we need to take on the Mackualities.
But then do we all want to regress back to being the hindu dhimmies that got their butts whipped in the first place?.

I dont think I am suggesting that Rye; removing the Mackaulities will not necessarly mean going back in time before Ms came. I simply mean destroying the "soft" part of the system which gives the space for Islamism to exist.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Nov 2007 09:13

Apu wrote:Islamist extremism thrieves in India due to the nature of the political climate. Muslims vote in blocks, the Hindu majority is paralysed due to differences in caste and language and thus has fractured voting.

Blaming the fracture in Hindu votes on caste lines in something easy to do; however that is not accurate.

Caste factor is a very recent phenomena

Notice the fact that Muslims were still appeased till 90s till BJP changed the rules EVEN WHEN THE SPLIT ON CASTE LINES HAD NOT HAPPENED.

There is nothing castist about WB politics which is dominated by Hindu Brahmins seeking vote in Marx's (ahem guns) name. These folks lead the world in sucking up to the Islamists; a step ahead of the INC even.

The fact is that Hinduism is by its nature a evolved philosphy which WILL NOT aim to subjugate thought and make people march in goose steeping columns. Such a phliosphy will always produce fracture on one line or the other. If not caste, it will be region, if not region prefrence for a stream of thought vs other. If nothing else matters votes will get split on the favorite bollywood heroine. We need to be different and express our prefrences.

So we can stop trying to beat ourselves with any stick that comes handy since the purpose of the thread is not catharis but to actually identify the real problem.

The real problem is domination of intellutcal space in the country by out and out Dhimmi liars (but I repeat myself) that needs to be fixed.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Nov 2007 09:20

shiv wrote:We are welcome to continue to be an islamic state in word and deed - but we have to boot out Islam where it impinges on our laws, our constitution and our ways.

O I cry every night trust me; and every time I walk through my country; I cry trust me.

However it is possible that the people saying "not my fault" are people who are actually not at fault in the sense that they did are not guilty of acts of commission; acts of Omission? Sure we are all except perhaps folks like Nathuram Godse etc; what will you have us do; go out and fight on the street when a Mob attacks Talisma Nasreen? Or god forbid you actually want us to go out and vote!?!

PS> Goverence thread issue; Man the trouble I have in getting a voters card for my new place. Sigh....