Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 2

[mangesh]

Shiv,

[Advise in case this is inappropriate in this thread or forum]

Most of your arguments seem well thought-out and many time meticulous in details and rigor. Hence you would be the best person to clarify these to me.

I had been a silent lurker for years in many forums, mainly to understand and analyse why we get attacked successfully. I was/am very much reluctant in posting any comments after I clearly found that pushing a point however well thought-out is quite difficult to people with prejudices as we all are to various extends. But now I am reasonably convinced about the ways we are attacked and how we are subjugated by it. So after a long while, I decided to try out posting somethings. In that way BR is the first forum I am posting in my life.

The main objective being getting acquainted with people of same frequency so that some serious action items could be thought-out and implemented even if it involves some sacrifices. Personally the most impressive posts for me in this thread were mainly from shiv and Indygill,
despite most posters of this thread seem like advanced ones.

My questions are following:

1) Each time we discuss some serious thread like this, so many points well worthy come up. Though they are all scattered in mess of discussions. Finally the thread may get over, some parts get moved to trash-can and some parts to archive. It is not easily possible to extract the lessons and points from the archive as I see.

What is the purpose of our discussions or of any forum of BR-kind. Is it just for people to exchange ideas and update themselves for their own way of countering the threats?

Or is it for lurking people with capable machineries to find guidance from these archives. ?

Is there any conscious attempt to initiate a set of action items for the lessons learned from each thread after clearly documenting valid lessons hidden in the labyrinth of each threads.?

Unlike missionaries, muslims and commies we dont have a machinery to execute any of the lessons. The very little machinery we seem like having is working in quite a lot of disharmony and division. There exists no intelligent people in most of them with links to other ones to bridge and co-ordinate a response. So most of the lessons of analysis remains unused and lost. We cant win this war without finding a solution for this.
If there exist none to bridge we ourself have to sacrifice as bridges. I see no other way. We dont have govt help too. So we should strive for a bottom up approach which missionaries try in Islamic countries. Without media, vote-bank, education-machinery it is impossible for a top-down approach, which is quite possible for Islamists and missionaries.

In short, I would like to know, how we discussing these and extracting valid points would help us in countering the threats we have.?

2) In anyalysing any system, be it physical, biological or social, all inputs that are effecting the system needs to brought into consideration, for an error free analysis. But I feel a conscious effort from you and many senior people to subtly prevent some very critical variable from being discussed. Personally I am fine with it, because with the intelligence you show, I feel that without proper reasons which atleast you seem to be reasonably convinced, you wont do that, that too when u very well know that strategically islamists possess a lesser active-threat than some more cunning ones.

Islamists : Main political threat : Demographic alteration
Purpose : Establish Dar-ul-islam
Type : Passive, Decentralised in execution, but centralised by concepts
Strategy : Well tested from history and legacy, but little new additions.
Resource : Terrorists, Dhimmis, Mutual-benefactors, Islamic-terror-control-of-its cadres, Oil-money.
Main drawback - Conversion by connivance is near to impossible unless by marriage due to terror image, hence only organic growth in demography is possible.
Prevention of attrition - Socail-terror-convensions, death-penalty.
Main centre of execution in India - Throughout India
Meeting day of the week - friday

a) through multiplication
b) through mutual help to create muslims mainly recruitment to state-machinery. This is not so working as they are not getting credibly educated candidates.
c) Terrorizing hindus in its region, so that they migrate out, and thereby creating muslim-pockets.


The-most-cunning-and-crooked Religion: Main threat : Demographic alteration
Purpose : Political and economic control for super-powers using cunning-religion as the means. Old colored wine in colorless new bottle.
Type : Active, Centralized and Dynamic in execution and concepts.
Strategy: Evolving and dynamic.
Resources: Social-works, Media, Foreign-superpower-influence, super-power-funding, education, healthcare, conversion.
Main Drawback - Terror not possible, starting from change of policy in new testament. Muscle is replaced by Brain. So only INORGANIC growth possible in India. Initial headstart in India was not given.
Prevention of attrition : social isolation.
Main Headquarters - Kerala and Mallus.
Meeting day - Saturday night, Sunday

a) through conversion of humans into VIRUS
b) Hijacking costumes and culture
c) Hijacking social-institutions, educational and healthcare
d) Aligning with Mutual-benefactors
e) silent killer.

As I compare, the one which causes inorganic mechanism of growth is
more dangerous than the organic ones as the latter is passive and analysable, but the former is active, crooked, and INorganic in changing demography.



But the fact, atleast in theory is that unless our threads too are psycho-operations on the unknown lurkers, the analysis that omit the influence of critical variables are bound to be partially to a good extend though not completely erroneous and any strategies devised around them may be futile in realistic scenarios in protecting us.

Eg : We may try to kill a Lion, without considering the silent help it is getting from the Wolf. Both Wolf and lion have same aim to establish their empire, but we elephants are in majority, hence common enemy. It might be also wolfs aim to kill the Lion, but only after elephant is subjugated using Lion, and silently creating more wolves(out of elephants) to overwhelm Lion or elephant at the right time. Lion being the killer animal believes in Muscle power than brain. Wolf dont want any wounds, but would like to eat up the elephants wounded by Lion. Lion too need wolves help, even if they are enemies outside this elephant forest.

Devising strategies against Lion, without considering wolves intensions and methods are quite frivolous in long run. Wolves posses the magic trick of converting elephants to wolves. Any attempt to convert a Lion, inevitably ends in the death of the wolf.

Can you give me an intelligent reason/strategy-behind if possible (no push) for such subtle attitude seem to practised here.?

Admins : Sorry if I am wrong in bringing this up. You can request for deletion in case u feel like this violates some BR policy.

[ShauryaT]

A brief glance at the picture show how much groups A and B have to fight. They have to oppose group C, D and E

Talk about coming back from an experience of doing just that, a few hours ago. It is Sunday morning, where I live, and I volunteer for a culture class/Hindi course in Massa land.

The topic: The culture class curriculum. My two other, more experienced curriculum editors in the school come from, such a dhimmi centric view point that this whole topic of the key messages, and what is accurate or not has to be approached very, very carefully.

My natural tendency is to give it straight but all this does is shut me out because the simple truth is the overwhelming majority, still retain a dhimmi centric mind frame. Believing what you have learnt and what gets reinforced from your normal sources of reference, such as your history book, your living environment, the media et al is much easier than pain staking research. Even when you come up with alternative well argued view points, it is summarily dismissed as the RSS/BJP (almost used as a modern untouchable) view point or revisionist history.

However, I will admit, it is a very frustrating experience and I want to succeed, as at stake is the message and education of over 250 students and the likely group they will be in, in their adult life, including mine.

[mangesh]

A brief glance at the picture show how much groups A and B have to fight. They have to oppose group C, D and E

Talk about coming back from an experience of doing this just that, a few hours ago. It is Sunday morning, where I live and I volunteer for a culture class/Hindi course in Massa land.

The topic: The culture class curriculum. My two other, more experienced curriculum editors in the school come from, such a dhimmi centric view point that this whole topic of the key messages, and what is accurate or not has to be approached very, very carefully.

My natural tendency is to give it straight but all this does is shut me out because the simple truth is the overwhelming majority, still retain a dhimmi centric mind frame. Believing what you have learnt and what gets reinforced from your normal sources of reference, such as your history book, your living environment, the media et al is much easier than pain staking research. Even when you come up with alternative well argued view points, it is summarily dismissed as the RSS/BJP (almost used as a modern untouchable) view point or revisionist history.

However, I will admit, it is a very frustrating experience and I want to succeed, as at stake is the message and education of over 250 students and the likely group they will be in, in their adult life, including mine.

Is it possible to provide the background of these students,
Their age-group, religiously-homogenious lot or not,
and how long u will get them to teach.

Depending on these, some pragmatic strategies could be thought-out.
Teaching curriculum itself is a direct approach and bound to fail.
Curriculum should just be a means, to inject the poison of truth.
Curriculum should hide as a facade.
Curriculum as shown outside and accepted inside should contain only
love, mutual-respect and other dhimmi attitudes, but practical examples
which u show should always make them behave the opposite, without
even they themself knowing.

Invoke the same insecurity and fear (which u have) in them, through indirect means, then
they would slowly become same as you, provided they feel that they are
not alone, or else a dejected negligence would be the effect, despite the fact that the target may well reaslize the danger.

But the sad fact is that the realized target will soon plunge into sorrow and dejection for lack of a proper machinery to do something.

Keep doing, we are with u.

[Victor]

From the Irfan article:

The backward classes among Muslims (yeh kya hai, bhai?) are now organising for extension of benefits of affirmative actions to the backward classes to them. In doing so, they emphasise their regional identity and seek to know what caste their pre-Islamic forefathers belonged to before converting. The Pasmanda Muslim Mahaz (Forum of Backward Muslims) is another such group, with branches in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. It is a welcome expansion of the Muslim identity, putting a much-need emphasis on pluralism within Islam.

IOW, they want to have their cake and eat it too--demand freebies for being Muslims and then come back and demand more because their forefathers were Dalits.

[mangesh]

From the Irfan article:

The backward classes among Muslims are now organising for extension of benefits of affirmative actions to the backward classes to them. In doing so, they emphasise their regional identity and seek to know what caste their pre-Islamic forefathers belonged to before converting. The Pasmanda Muslim Mahaz (Forum of Backward Muslims) is another such group, with branches in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. It is a welcome expansion of the Muslim identity, putting a much-need emphasis on pluralism within Islam.

IOW, they want to have their cake and eat it too--demand freebies for being Muslims and then come back and demand more because their forefathers were Dalits.

This is the lesson they learned from the success of silent-cunning-crooked ones. They are successful in lobbying for converted-dalits. And by treating wolf as lamb, we gave the silent assent to them.

Now no wonder that Islamists take this up. When a demographically weak, crooked ones can get it done, why cant a vote-bank replicate it.

It is just an elementary thinking by the half baked brains of islamic strategists. But the core idea is of the crooked-ones. Let us give them
their due credit.

Lesson: From whom and how the threat is comming should be less important. Instead how it effects us, irrespective of who threatens is the objective way of anaylysis.

[shiv]

What is the purpose of our discussions or of any forum of BR-kind. Is it just for people to exchange ideas and update themselves for their own way of countering the threats?

Or is it for lurking people with capable machineries to find guidance from these archives. ?

Is there any conscious attempt to initiate a set of action items for the lessons learned from each thread after clearly documenting valid lessons hidden in the labyrinth of each threads.?

Mangesh. Thanks for the long post. I will respond to other parts later, but first the above quote defines the forum.

There is no specific brief or agenda in this connection.

The agenda of BR is only to provide open source information about the Indian armed forces and a discussion forum attached to that cause (The military forum). Nothing else. Even this forum is secondary to that to cater to the requirement that people may want to discuss these issues.

If you want to meet like minded people who act on the thoughts you have I suggest India Forum

[GuruNandan]

Saw this article by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

http://worldmonitor.wordpress.com/

In the recent past, more women have come out against Islam. I applaud her courage. She says it like it is.

[GuruNandan]

Quote

"..Equipped with the knowledge one can take on any jokers/imbeciles/islam apologists who plead on behalf of Islam or insist that it is a religion of peace. "

Shiv,

When i made the above statement in one of the earlier posts, what i had in mind were journalists, anchors, pundits who in spite of being provided with the truth, refuse to see it and argue against facts. In the West, we have seen many brave people come out in the open and say that the problem is not "Radical Muslims" and that the problem is Islam. And i have seen news anchors like Glenn Beck (saw his video posted on this thread) call scholars, ex-muslims on his program speaking the truth about Islam and yet ending up with wrong conclusions.

For instance, see this post on JihadWatch (Robert Spencer's blog)


Glenn Beck: "I have read the Koran and can tell you that I unequivocally believe that Islam is a religion of peace"

So says Glenn Beck in his bestselling new book, An Inconvenient Book.

And wouldn't it be nice if it were so? But -- inconvenient as it may be -- saying "I have read the Koran and can tell you that I unequivocally believe that Islam is a religion of peace" is like saying, "I have read the Qur'an but I read it with my eyes closed."

The Qur'an counsels warfare -- hot warfare, with casualties and prisoners -- against unbelievers in numerous passages, including 9:5, 9:29, 2:190-193, 8:60, 2:216-217, 8:65-67, 9:111, 60:8-9, and 47:4, and that's just off the top of my head. There are many other such passages as well. I am not talking for the moment about whether such fighting is defensive or offensive, or prescribed for all time or only for the believers of Muhammad's day, or justified or not for whatever reason. I am merely pointing out that the Qur'an -- regardless of (as the common objections will surely come) what the Bible or any other sacred text says or does not say -- at face value mandates warfare against unbelievers in numerous passages. Anyone who reads it attentively will see this.

Now, that fact alone does not establish that Islam is not a religion of peace. Some contend, or Glenn Beck may assume, that the traditions and laws of Islam mitigate the literal meaning of these texts. (Whether or not this is actually true is irrelevant to the present discussion, which is just about the Qur'an itself.) They may think that they are universally interpreted in a spiritualized manner, or that they are not regarded literally, or that modern Muslims do not see them as binding. But Glenn Beck did not, unfortunately, say or suggest any of those things. Rather, he said, "I have read the Koran and can tell you that I unequivocally believe that Islam is a religion of peace," which is a statement about the Qur'an. It suggests that its contents are other than what they are.

Now, Beck continues by saying: "The overwhelming majority (I believe at least 90 percent) of all Muslims are good, peace-loving people." That may be so, but it does not follow from the contents of the Qur'an in any case. Religious traditions are large things, and while the contents of the Qur'an are what they are, that does not mean -- and I have never argued, although the careless, foolish and malevolent frequently assume that I do -- that every Muslim knows all of those contents, takes them to heart, and acts upon them, or ever will.

Beck's statement is a typical one, showing one of the ways in which this issue gets clouded. People see that there are peaceful Muslims and assume on the basis of their existence, and because of presuppositions they have about the nature of religious texts in general, that the jihadists must be twisting the peaceful message at the religion's core. Or they think that the only way we can support genuine Muslim moderates is by retailing polite fictions such as this one. This completely ignores, of course, the fact that jihadists around the world are making recruits today by appealing to peaceful Muslims as the exponents of "pure" and "true" Islam, and quoting the Qur'an and Sunnah copiously to buttress this claim.

Until the Glenn Becks of the world, and Muslims and non-Muslims of good will, understand that and begin to confront it rather than pretending it is not happening, that recruitment will continue.
.

What do you say to this? I have heard that in India, a city dweller went to a village to meet his relatives. When he got there, he was warned that the door in the house was not that high, and that he would have to bend down to avoid hitting his head to the top of the door. When he heard that, he started walking by bending. He thus bent his way to the door and when he was at the door, he straightened himself hitting his head to the top of the door and hurting in the process. This is what is called as thinking too much and arriving at the wrong conclusion.

The other problem (and i think is prevalent in India) is a non thinking conclusion saying "Islam is a religion of peace" or that "All religions are the same". The other day, i heard Sagarika Ghose saying "Islam is a great religion". These are non analyzed, thoughtless conclusions. Simply because there is no one who can come on a mainstream news channel and say that Islam is the problem. Even if Shri. Ram Swarup and Shri. Sita Ram Goel were alive, they would not be seen on Indian media. The only journalists that i know who could speak the truth about Islam that get some coverage are Arun Shourie and Swapan Dasgupta. Arun Shourie did write a great piece on the Islamic problem in 1989 called Hideaway Communalism. I think that contributed towards his being shunted out of Indian Express.

Your point about winning over the Dhimmis, is taken. I did not have the general Hindu populace when i said that. It would be a great day for India when an intellectual would proclaim on India's national media about the truth of Islam. I am sure life would be difficult for him in India after that.

[shiv]

Your point about winning over the Dhimmis, is taken. I did not have the general Hindu populace when i said that. It would be a great day for India when an intellectual would proclaim on India's national media about the truth of Islam. I am sure life would be difficult for him in India after that.

In an interesting "practice" discussion I had with highly evolved Macaulay-dhimmis I successfully broke through the barrier and wreaked a degree of havoc. Hopefully I got some grey cells whirring, but I have some thoughts.

As a hypothesis I want to divide Hindu society into two groups. Both are dhimmi, but in different ways and both have been recognized on this forum and others.

One is the vast mass (aam aadmi) who are mostly dhimmi alone. They have no Macaulay, (or little Macaulay). The constitute the mass that makes a BRF member happy when he returns from massaland to see "dhoom-dham" diwali/dussera celebration. This is the group that causes Irfan Engineer takleef with boisterous celebrations. This group have mass power, but very little media power. This is mainly because they have been left out of the Macaulay process and therefore do not control the hoity-toity Macaulay angrezi (brown sahib/boxwallah etc) club to which I know I belong.

The smaller number are the Macaulay-dhimmis of the type I interacted with (the the hoity-toity Macaulay angrezi). The Macaulay-dhimmis control the media and for that reason they need to be understood and understood well. I believe I belong to this class to some extent, but I get dubbed Hindutva when I say things that cause this group takleef.

Macaulay dhimmis are dhimmis exactly like the previous group. but they are the group that has benefited earliest and most deeply from Macaulayization. They were among the first to get an education in English, and were among the first to agree with and subscribe to what I consider "good governance practices" like democratic institutions and "rule of law". I use the words "subscribe to" because although they "subscribe to" good governance - they are basically dhimmi Hindus who have faults that they do not themselves see. But this group can be swayed by logical arguments that argue in favor of good governance and rule of law.

Hindu Macaulay dhimmis thnk like Brit brown sahibs. They consider plain Hindu dhimmis as savage Hindus who are responsible for India's corruption and inefficiency because they form the "vast mass". And because they form the vast mass Hindu Macaulay dhimmis consider Muslims a minority who will get swallowed up by the vast mass. Hindu Macaulay dhimmis also subscribe to the British+Muslim league notion that Hindus, if unchecked, are out to get Muslims. This is basically because of their own subservience to what the Brits said.

So Hindu Macaulay Dhimmis have the following traits:

• 1) They control the media and airwaves by their angrezi and links to phoren media and institutions
• 2)The will listen to "good governance and rule of law" arguments
• 3)They are dhimmis who will hear no evil, say no evil, do no evil vis a vis ummah. In a strange way they are both dhimmis and at the same time that feel they are victors over Islam like Brits.

One of the important steps in handling Islamic extremism is to win over Hindu Macaulay dhimmis because they control the airwaves.

One method to do that is to appeal to their "good governance and fairness" side while reducing the fear they have that Musilms are about to be slaughtered by the "vast mass"

Unfortunately, the BJP, RSS and Hindu organizations and Modi have uniformly got the Hindu Macaulay dhimmis afraid that Muslims are about to be slaughtered en masse by Hindus. That is how they talk. They refer to any Hindu group as murderers and they help to fill the airwaves with such accusations.

This is a difficult situation. Since they control the airwaves, threatening this group only leads to more bad press. This group, like I mentioned earlier, needs to be dealt with finesse. In fact, explaining to them that terrorism is tribal "group blame and group punishment" and also gently explaining that calling all Hindu groups "murderers" is equally group blame and punishment can earn some rewards. Ultimately Hindu Macaulay Dhimmis have to understand that they too blame other Hindus en masse as being murderers but do not realise that Islamists are also taking revenge on an entire society. In my experience, hindu Macaulay dhimmis will listen to reason that shows them the way. The right way is to speak of individual freedom and individual responsibility (or guilt) and rule of law, as opposed to group responsibility and group guilt that they are themselves using against other Hindus.

JMT. This business requires sophistication that must be developed.

[Johann]

Macaulay dhimmis are dhimmis exactly like the previous group. but they are the group that has benefited earliest and most deeply from Macaulayization. They were among the first to get an education in English, and were among the first to agree with and subscribe to what I consider "good governance practices" like democratic institutions and "rule of law". I use the words "subscribe to" because although they "subscribe to" good governance - they are basically dhimmi Hindus who have faults that they do not themselves see. But this group can be swayed by logical arguments that argue in favor of good governance and rule of law.

...One of the important steps in handling Islamic extremism is to win over Hindu Macaulay dhimmis because they control the airwaves.

One method to do that is to appeal to their "good governance and fairness" side while reducing the fear they have that Musilms are about to be slaughtered by the "vast mass"

This all absolutely true.

On the previous page there was discussion of how weakness of civil society and rule of law was something the Islamists exploit.

While civil society and rule of law are far stronger in India than much of the rest of the decolonised world, it isnt nearly as strong as it could be.

Indian 'Macaulayites' generally seem to prefer to blame the 'aam admi' for this, but as you say they are often quite unconscious of the roles that their own attitudes play in the slow pace at which attitudes are being transformed.

Public-mindedness in particular is something that is sorely lacking - the sense that they own, and must therefore care for what is common trust. The more common notion is it doesnt belong to anyone, so I can do anything with it, which inevitably leads to abuse.

I generally like to explore all sorts areas on foot wherever possible because you see more.

What I found interesting is that a certain kind of lower-middle class areas in Indian cities showed far more community spirit than far-better off ones.

Litter was at a minimum, there was collaboration to achieve civic improvements, etc.

Better off areas on the other hand moaned about how impossible it was to deal with the rude, crude and corrupt city bureaucracy, etc, etc. I watched supposedly educated people litter without a thought and allow surprising amounts of urban decay to gather around them. The sense that some activity (politics) or place (a road) is dirty and polluting, so its best to insulate onself behind your walls.

This is *detachment*, not public-mindedness, passivity rather than leadership.

Even the most common form of intellectual dissidence against this state of affairs is the frequent and darklu muttered admiration of authoritarian systems that impose order and discipline - military, or 1-party states.

Frankly even that sounds a cop-out to me "I cant discipline myself - I need a strong man to do it for me", yet another way of externalising the problem.

India's educated classes are only marginally less passive and and on the whole not particularly more-public minded than any other kind of Indian.

I am not sure that they are the people who will bring rule of law to India.

It is those who can not *afford* to insulate themselves from the difficulties of living in India who are likely to do it, if it is done at all.

[ShauryaT]

Public-mindedness in particular is something that is sorely lacking - the sense that they own, and must therefore care for what is common trust.

I diagonose at least a part of this, due to the loss of a more federalistic form of governance, where local bodies are in charge of their own destinies. When you take away from a people, their sense of control and ownership and hence a sense of responsibility, the result is, even though you may personally live in a swanky appartment, the street outside accumulates filth.

Something to learn from the US in this matter.

[Sanku]

Public-mindedness in particular is something that is sorely lacking - the sense that they own, and must therefore care for what is common trust.

I diagonose at least a part of this, due to the loss of a more federalistic form of governance, .

OT
This is something that I often think about; the reason is as you mention detachment - not my problem. Unlike Shiv (who thinks hyper especialiation of responsiblity is a cause) I think the following are the reasons (I agree with what you said)

1) Looking at the Govt/common as not my own - born out of the fact that the Indian rule was "not my own" for a large group of people for a long part of time.
2) Delibrate growth of "civil" disobdience mindset encouraged by INC.
3) Post Independence to 99.9% of India (including the elites) the govt for all practical purposes remained the same. The brits left but pretty much the entire face of the socio-political interaction was unchanged.

Add to the above there was a added problem; Indian state in a very short span of time actually went about dispossesing a large spectrum of Indians who had something to lose. Whether this resulted in the previous disenfranshised getting something is not really clear but we had our own version of the Long march.

All the above post independence has served to create a mass of rootless Indians.

Sorry for OT

[Sanku]

JMT. This business requires sophistication that must be developed.

Should sophistication be developed? -- Sure of course!!

But at the same time consider the current sceanrio -- what we have discussed on BRF; the plain truths and trends are not necessarily sharing of a great hidden sceret. I agree that there is more depth; knowledge and historical context on BRF but EVEN outside there is plenty of truth making its own arguments for all those who are willing to listen.

To take but one of the many examples consider the behavior against Talism and the absolute peacful behavior from peaceful beeble like Ja Ved Da Akhtar on that count. No court cases against Owaisi were filed by him were they?

What the point of the rant -- Very spohisticated arguments are made every day by the flow of life. They go unheard. Even in your own mock interview; remember how the interview ended? Try a more sophistacted version it will end the same.

You can not wake up people who pretend to be sleeping.

The sophisticated argument will win if and only if the root causes to the compact that rewards the Dhimmi for siding with Islamistis is broken.

Therefore when Islamistis win Dhimmis score -50.

This is were I slightly disagree with with the answer that Ramana very graciously gave to my question -- log saap ko doodh kyon pilate hain.

Thinking about the other possiblities that Ramana listed; along with a brain dead behavior bought about by Dhimmitude they encourage the Saanp because not to reform the Hindu society but to stifle the reform.

They want their premince in the Ivory tower maintained; and they be the gate keeper to the new entrants. They want to the elite to restricted and just like them and new elites to be created slowly at the rate they chose.

The hindu rate of growth (not Nehruvian rate of growth) will destroy the ivory tower by growing the land around higher than the tower.

So they backstab their country in quest for purity. It is the essentially the feudal remains of Raj hanging on by other means after Raj is destroyed. Just like CPI-M in WB. Note not all so called "feudal" elements of Old India were "fedual" in the sense of word; many of them were natural managers and were concered about the country etc. I refer to only the true fuedals amongst them.

The way to fight these is by destroying the link between appeasment and power these guys have created.

[vsudhir]

Sanku

Thinking about the other possiblities that Ramana listed; along with a brain dead behavior bought about by Dhimmitude they encourage the Saanp because not to reform the Hindu society but to stifle the reform.

They want their premince in the Ivory tower maintained; and they be the gate keeper to the new entrants. They want to the elite to restricted and just like them and new elites to be created slowly at the rate they chose.

The hindu rate of growth (not Nehruvian rate of growth) will destroy the ivory tower by growing the land around higher than the tower.

So they backstab their country in quest for purity. It is the essentially the feudal remains of Raj hanging on by other means after Raj is destroyed. Just like CPI-M in WB. Note not all so called "feudal" elements of Old India were "fedual" in the sense of word; many of them were natural managers and were concered about the country etc. I refer to only the true fuedals amongst them.

The way to fight these is by destroying the link between appeasment and power these guys have created.

Beautifully articulated.. While I'd had this understanding somewhere, you put it in words. Sadly, makes India seem like a cousin to TSP kinda feudalism, which it prolly is, to some extent.

Economic growth, democratic capitalism, more directness in approaching issues, DDIE (Deracinated Dhimmi Indian Elite) moaning about the 'loss of the ceremony of innocence' (a la PB Mehta in IE) due to this directness etc - all we see happening in one place today - Gujrat.

The power and ability of DDIE to use airwaves to define an issue and a (Hindu) people's perception of themselves is weakening hearteningly in Gujrat. Hope and pray this current election goes right.... just so much depends on it. A new template, a new confidence, a new demonstration of possibilities for the rest of India to consider emulating (start with the current and erstwhile NDA ruled states).

Modi's election is like Geert Wilders' party forming the govt in Holland.... Hajaar significance are there....

JMTs etc.

[Sanku]

Thanks for the kind words Vsudhir; may the gods smile on our land.

[mangesh]

What is the purpose of our discussions or of any forum of BR-kind. Is it just for people to exchange ideas and update themselves for their own way of countering the threats?

Or is it for lurking people with capable machineries to find guidance from these archives. ?

Is there any conscious attempt to initiate a set of action items for the lessons learned from each thread after clearly documenting valid lessons hidden in the labyrinth of each threads.?

Mangesh. Thanks for the long post. I will respond to other parts later, but first the above quote defines the forum.

There is no specific brief or agenda in this connection.

The agenda of BR is only to provide open source information about the Indian armed forces and a discussion forum attached to that cause (The military forum). Nothing else. Even this forum is secondary to that to cater to the requirement that people may want to discuss these issues.

If you want to meet like minded people who act on the thoughts you have I suggest India Forum

Shiv,

I understand what you say and realise that there are limitations in any public forum regarding several discussions due to sociological and legal reasons. BR being (as u said)a sociological open-source extension of AMRed forces of India, will have to preserve its secular fabric for the goodness of country. I missed to think in these lines before shooting the question. I am sorry to have made a direct question.

One reason was this. 9 months ago if anyone in BRF had linked terrorism to Indian muslims , he would have easily gained a Ban. But now after quite some more blasts we have threads running with the current title, which shows some change. I wanted to know, what exactly is this change when i felt some ironical approach, hence the previous question.

Now after some more thinking, I think I have the answers. Thanks for
answering me, without saying anything explicitly.

My take is like this : Certain threats are perceived as if when a frog is thrown into boiling water, it would either jump-out semi-wounded and escape or die. Escaped ones would warn those outside. This is the kind we are discussing here. Other frogs witnessing would either run-away or rebell. Certain other threats are like attracting the frogs to the pot and then acclimatising frogs by slowly heating up the water and the frogs are sure to have a slow pain-less death. There would be no warning to the frog inside or outside.

May God shower grace on our country that we may not end up as the above frog in either case.

I wont raise these questions here-after as I got the answers I was looking for.

If you want to meet like minded people who act on the thoughts you have I suggest India Forum

Thanks for the suggestion, I will see if any pragmatic thoughts are floating around in India-forum.

[JwalaMukhi]

They want their premince in the Ivory tower maintained; and they be the gate keeper to the new entrants. They want to the elite to restricted and just like them and new elites to be created slowly at the rate they chose.

The hindu rate of growth (not Nehruvian rate of growth) will destroy the ivory tower by growing the land around higher than the tower.

So they backstab their country in quest for purity. It is the essentially the feudal remains of Raj hanging on by other means after Raj is destroyed.

The way to fight these is by destroying the link between appeasment and power these guys have created.

Sanku thanks for two beautiful posts that encapsulates the ailment. The Elite needs a differentiation and cannot identify with the common mass. Their practice was to learn English language (albiet not very well - just better than aam admi) and flaunt it as sophistication to become the slave of English (not language). While what was needed was one should master the English (language), because it is currency of economics (also the articulation and doucmentation of knowledge these days) on world stage.
This highlights Vsudhir's earlier question, what happens when the Elite in Oirope change tunes on islamism what will the DIEs do? DIEs will give a passing footnote in recognizing islamism as a problem, while baying it is all because of backwardness of the Yindoo.
Unfortunately, IMVHO old ideas never die, it is only when people who possess such ideas die then new ideas can germinate. They have built their careers on such grandiose deception, that it becomes too dangerous for them to change.

[ramana]

The progress of civilization is such that the reformers become vested interests and keep the status quo. The DIE is now the vested interests and is interested in keeping the status quo which preserves their pre-eminence. Hence this supression of the periphery. The trajectory of history is that at this stage there are three options:

1) The whole setup collapses. Outsiders take over. Eg. Sassanid Iran and Byzantium etc.
2) The vested interests adopt the new reformers and the civilization carries on. British royalty.
3) The peripehry captures the center and a new age begins. Mahabharat und so weiter.

Sanku and Jwala Mukhi you are both ready to read Caroll Quigley "Evolution of Civilizations". Its a pdf and will help you clarify your thoughts better.

Airavat, Try to get hold of "Evolution of Civilizations" By Caroll Quigley. He traces the various stages of the growth of civilization. One of the stages is an outside peripheral power establishes dominance by capturing the middle and that leads to stability. He gives example of Macedonia under Philip all the way to modern times.


Even Gandhi was peripheral entity that captured the middle of the INC and that led to the freedom struggle. The Peshwas were a peripheral power that captured Delhi by 1740.
LINK

Please all download and read.

[vsudhir]

Ramana garu

Sanku and Jwala Mukhi you are both ready to read Caroll Quigley "Evolution of Civilizations". Its a pdf and will help you clarify your thoguhts better.

Am deeply offended, thy wise self didn't consider yours truly at a level worthy of reading Caroll Quigley.....

/Sarc off

Tks for the link.

1) The whole setup collapses. Outsiders taek over. Eg. Sassanid Iran and Byzantium etc.
2) The vested interests adopt the new reformers and the civilization carries on. British royalty.
3) The peripehry captures the center and a new age begins. Mahabharat und so weiter.

Ideally, 2) should happen but given how much the current DDIE is invested in its stand, I'm now hoping 3) will happen at a manageable pace.

[ramana]

Dear Sudhirgaru. Please read the original quote. It says "Please all download and read."

You are included in that category.

This whole point of discussion is to let the vested interests morph/evolve and preserve themselves. For in either of the other two options they get whacked.

[surinder]

One method to do that is to appeal to their "good governance and fairness" side while reducing the fear they have that Musilms are about to be slaughtered by the "vast mass"
...
This group, like I mentioned earlier, needs to be dealt with finesse. In fact, explaining to them that terrorism is tribal "group blame and group punishment" and also gently explaining that calling all Hindu groups "murderers" is equally group blame and punishment can earn some rewards. Ultimately Hindu Macaulay Dhimmis have to understand that they too blame other Hindus en masse as being murderers but do not realise that Islamists are also taking revenge on an entire society. In my experience, hindu Macaulay dhimmis will listen to reason that shows them the way. The right way is to speak of individual freedom and individual responsibility (or guilt) and rule of law, as opposed to group responsibility and group guilt that they are themselves using against other Hindus.

One simple way (if there exists a simple way) is to consider and confer this group the title & authority of not just mere Islamic-apologists, but being Islamic themselves. Put them in charge of explaining and defending all of Islam: (a) life and story of PBUH, (b) actions of Jihadis, (c) actions of Saudi Barbaria & TSP, (f) inspirations of jihadis from Islamic history, (g) history of muslim rule cruelties. Connect with them and put them on soap box after every bomb blast in India and elsewhere and ask them about causes and connections to Islam. Don't ask them about Hinduism, but only about Islam. Do not ask the "fundamentalist Hindu" to accuse Izlam. Consider these people as Islamic scholars and question them. Make them defend the undefendable. Make them answer the unanswerable. Get them to sit with Izlamic scholars and make them listen to and agree to their drivel.

A friend of mine used to tell me, shift the debate to enemy territory. Let me explain his theory by applying it to this example. The debate should never be whether Hindus are good or bad, whether Hindus are violent or not. For even if you win the debate, you have lost it because your best outcome can be "Hindus are NOT violent". You have not won anything. Shift the debate to only Islam. So even if the Macaulayity Dhimmi Media (MDM) wins, it only proves a negative "Islam is not violent". In the Western dialectic about Islam post-9/11, Islam is similarly fighting to prove that "Islam is not Violent" or its variant "Islam is a religion of Peace". Even after winning the argument (if at all it is won), Islam never wins.

The second way is (which is not in our control) bombs hit close to the MDM's. That changes people faster than you can write this message. Third method is to give wide distribution to some reliable biography of the poobah. Fourth method is simply to get the aam admi Dhiimmi's to simply not beleive the MDM's. If they create their own reality and ignore the MDM's, that is a big blow to MDM's. We can all be agents of this change. I was a big defender of Izlam in all public/private settings. After 9/11 when I decided to read up and educate myself, I got myself a very reliable biography of PooBaah. I was shocked. I did not recover for months reading what I was reading. It changed my view upside down.

[SBajwa]

Surinder,

Majority of the Muslims whom I have explained above never own up to their responsiblity. They claim following

1. Jews, Christians and Hindus(CIA, Mossad and RAW) are doing it blaming peace loving islam and Islamists. Who will never murder innocents women or children.

2. Muslims can never be wrong.

How do you get the people out of this islamist denial? Majority of Muslims around the world blame CIA and Mossad for the 9/11 to attack on parliament.

I think that the concept of Satya or Truth is non-existent among people of Islamic faith. For them Truth is whatever you can believe in (Khudi i.e. Self) and untruth is whatever you don't believe in. This is a huge dilemma.

[sanjaykumar]

The political logic of Islam is very close to the political logic of White: If you are Chosen, ipso facto you cannot be wrong.

Howver, unlike Euros, Islam was in fact hugely cosmopolitan. There is something in their religions that justifies various manifest destinies.

The events in Pakistan are significant because the deep fractures in the defect-free, Hindu-free society are self-evident, even to casual White newspaper readers. One can no longer bleat about Islam and women's rights when Mukhtaran Mai dares show the face of rape in the Islamic Rapepublic of Pakistan.

The time has past when Hindus needed to be defensive about their many gods, their small statures, their dark complexions, their shortish penises, their caste system. For they now witness the pure society and give thanks to their many gods for their shortish penises.

[GuruNandan]

Surinder wrote

"..A friend of mine used to tell me, shift the debate to enemy territory. Let me explain his theory by applying it to this example. The debate should never be whether Hindus are good or bad, whether Hindus are violent or not. For even if you win the debate, you have lost it because your best outcome can be "Hindus are NOT violent". You have not won anything. Shift the debate to only Islam.."

Surinder,
Amen to that. That's what needs to be done. Hindus have been on the defensive for long only because they have not examined the ideology of their accusers. The day we begin to do that critically, all these self righteous, totalitarian creeds will be on the back foot. A principle in debating is never to talk about ones ideas/contentions/assertions, but allow the other side to make its assertion first and pick up the flaws in the thinking of the opponents. To understand Hinduism properly, one needs a certain maturity, a certain depth and a certain clarity. People who are accustomed to monotheistic creeds cannot easily understand the genius of Hinduism.

And Shiv, regarding your point
"..In my experience, hindu Macaulay dhimmis will listen to reason that shows them the way."

I am not as hopeful as you are. But would be happy if proven wrong!

[GuruNandan]

Somebody looks up to us to learn a lesson or two about how we dented the spread of Islam.

http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/search?q=Chachnama

It has excerpts from Chachnama (A History of Sind) and the heroic resistance to the initial islamic forays into India.

[Rye]

GuruNandan wrote:

To understand Hinduism properly, one needs a certain maturity, a certain depth and a certain clarity. People who are accustomed to monotheistic creeds cannot easily understand the genius of Hinduism.

Hinduism need not mean anything more than worshipping your favorite set of deities in a Temple -- if the proponents of a deep and intellectual hinduism think that they stand a chance against other more predatory religions by "raising the bar" to highly intellectual thoughts, they need to think again.

This ideological war with the islamists has nothing to do with deep thoughts about existence, truth, and beauty...because that is what Kafirs seek in spirituality/religion, not what the islamists seek from Islam. Islamists seek to use deception, brutality, and extreme prejudice to "cleanse the earth" and usher in a brutal theocratic regime.

JMTs

[ramana]

This ideological war with the islamists has nothing to do with deep thoughts about existence, truth, and beauty...because that is what Kafirs seek in spirituality/religion, not what the islamists seek from Islam. Islamists seek to use deception, brutality, and extreme prejudice to "cleanse the earth" and usher in a brutal theocratic regime.

Precisely they want to usher in this theocratic regime for better political control. Its a religious goondagiri. You wont get far with such folks by taking a higher intellectual level. The discussion so far was how to convince the dhimmi Hindus who have not yet realized the issues. It is these dhimmis who have to be changed.

[shiv]

Surinder wrote

"..A friend of mine used to tell me, shift the debate to enemy territory. Let me explain his theory by applying it to this example. The debate should never be whether Hindus are good or bad, whether Hindus are violent or not. For even if you win the debate, you have lost it because your best outcome can be "Hindus are NOT violent". You have not won anything. Shift the debate to only Islam.."

Surinder,
Amen to that. That's what needs to be done. Hindus have been on the defensive for long only because they have not examined the ideology of their accusers. The day we begin to do that critically, all these self righteous, totalitarian creeds will be on the back foot. A principle in debating is never to talk about ones ideas/contentions/assertions, but allow the other side to make its assertion first and pick up the flaws in the thinking of the opponents. To understand Hinduism properly, one needs a certain maturity, a certain depth and a certain clarity. People who are accustomed to monotheistic creeds cannot easily understand the genius of Hinduism.

And Shiv, regarding your point
"..In my experience, hindu Macaulay dhimmis will listen to reason that shows them the way."

I am not as hopeful as you are. But would be happy if proven wrong!

They will listen to technical points that fit in with Macaulayization and Western influences. This usually concerns rule of law, democracy, human rights, individual rights, women's rights, sexuality etc.

They will get turned off if you try and appeal to any remaining esthetic senses by spiritual or philosophical knowledge.

This is where the blunt bludgeon "Macaulayization" and the name "Macaulay-putra" must be used with caution. When that term is used derogatorily, the Macaulay-dhimmi begins to think that you want to discard rue of law and the constitution and all education in English because it came from Macaulay. That turns him off and he takes the war into YOUR territory in the manner that Surinder pointed out. He must not be given an opportunity to do that.

Do not insult his Macaulay-ego. Just get him to see the flaws. One eminent way of doing that is exactly as Surinder has suggested and taking the war into their domain. But I don't ask them to justify Islamist terror. i justify it myself. In fact I have tended to justify the worst Islamic terrorism by quotes and justifications from the Quran and Hadiths. This has become easier to do after being branded "right wing". I have met with fair success by these shock tactics in my circles and I find nobody disagreeing with some points I make regarding Islamist terrorism.

However the next step is to make them understand that just like we do not blame every single Muslim for terrorism, THEY must not club every single Hindu who speaks up as a right wing killer of Muslims and a justifier of murder. It is in this specific area that I have been speaking of "group blame and group responsibility" being wrong. If all Hindus who speak up are blamed as terrorists, it is equally valid to blame all Muslims, or at least all who don't speak up as being supporters of Islamist terrorism.

The concept of individual responsibility and individual rights as oposed to grop blame and group punishment needs to be gently recalled and restituted in the minds of Macaulay-dhimmi Hindus whose veneer of human rights and rule of law gets clouded by their tribal+dhimmi instinct to mass condemn any Hindu while vigorously objecting to mass condemnation of Muslims.

[shiv]

How do you get the people out of this islamist denial? Majority of Muslims around the world blame CIA and Mossad for the 9/11 to attack on parliament.

Forget Muslims. Don't try and change anything. Just win over the blind dhimmis for now.

But in the meantime I have a request for forum members.

If you recall I had posted a link to an image that linked bomb blasts to Muslim grievances. I have now found a poster by the same group that says "Babri Masjid 6 December. Lest we forget"

This poster made me feel ashamed of being Hindu. We must not forget.

Could someone please help me recall every major instance of Islamist terrorism starting with the Mumbai blasts of 1993. I need a list of every act with dates so we can commemorate every date. Lest we forget.

If such a list does not already exist, we need to make one now. I would appreciate any help. Such a list will be a powerful tool in talking to Macaulay-dhimmis, if used with the appropriate sarcastic+soothing words.

Mass emailing the list and making it easily locatable by Google would also be of some use.

[shiv]

Do not insult his Macaulay-ego. Just get him to see the flaws. One eminent way of doing that is exactly as Surinder has suggested and taking the war into their domain. But I don't ask them to justify Islamist terror. i justify it myself. In fact I have tended to justify the worst Islamic terrorism by quotes and justifications from the Quran and Hadiths. This has become easier to do after being branded "right wing". I have met with fair success by these shock tactics in my circles and I find nobody disagreeing with some points I make regarding Islamist terrorism.

In this connection, I want to point out a hurdle and a curious anomaly that has now changed just a little bit.
There was a time - perhaps 3-4 years ago, when Macaulay-dhimmi circles would discuss anything but Islamist terrorism. In those days I would shed a silent tear for every soldier or civilian who died and harbored silent anger at the fact that these were NEVER even mentioned, while the slightest hint of "Hindu right wing" was there the same Macaulay dhimmi circles would all pipe up to roundly criticize everyone and call every Hindu who spoke up a supporter of Murder.

It is a function of Macaulayization that these perceptions changed with 9-11.It is now possible to raise subjects that were taboo.

What is needed now is a bit of luck. I believe an Taliban takeover of parts of Pakistan would provide exactly the environment for the truth to be spoken freely.

[vsudhir]

Doc saheb,

Uncanny bit of premonition me'd had seems like. Your assertion practically mirrors mine (with some finesse thrown in extra), am happy to say.

It is a function of Macaulayization that these perceptions changed with 9-11.It is now possible to raise subjects that were taboo.

A good reflection of that is BRF where upto 2004/5, no discussion on islam/ islamism was permitted, no? Seems BRF's come a long way, again, ahead of the curve. O'course, its not pretty to lay bare the sheer ugliness that underpins what millions in India, IMs, fellow citizens and all, consider Holy absolutism.

And mighty inconvenient too, many a time and in many a circle.
But then, our alleigience is to truth, not convenience (or so I trust).

What is needed now is a bit of luck. I believe an Taliban takeover of parts of Pakistan would provide exactly the environment for the truth to be spoken freely.

Oh! Sweet vindication...!!
Here's my rude/crude bluntish talk in the TSP thread from a few hrs ago....

Sridhar,
when do you anticipate the launch of full fledged sharia in TSP? Am hoping Nawaz back in the gaddi will finish his interrupted task in 1999 and pass the shariat bill. I realy wanna see TSP ishtyle reality tv - the joy and luv of full sharia televised......

TSP deserves/merits no less.

AoA.

Jai Maharashtra.

[shiv]

It is a function of Macaulayization that these perceptions changed with 9-11.It is now possible to raise subjects that were taboo.

A good reflection of that is BRF where upto 2004/5, no discussion on islam/ islamism was permitted, no? Seems BRF's come a long way, again, ahead of the curve.

vsudhir - a rather shameful confession I have is that I danced with joy on the evening of Sept 11th 2001 when I saw TV images of the towers crashing. But my joy was the exact opposite of Osama's joy. Those pictures were images of chickens coming home to roost, and I knew that Islamist extremism and Pakistan had finally come of age.

A lot of deaf people, and a lot of blind people miraculously received the gift of Allah - they got back their hearing and eyesight on that day. Truly the ways of Allah are mysterious and great! Praise be upon him!

[samuel]

- I wonder if "dhimmis" are essential to the resurgent hawks survivability, just as the moderate muslim facade helps islamism's survival?

- There is a paper I wrote a while ago on the prudent predator in a study of complex system dynamics. That game shows that a predator that eats all its prey dies. In a population beginning with a broad distribution of the aggression allele (uniform distribution), it turns out that a predator-prey model will evolve the allele's distribution into a stationary where aggression peaks at "moderately aggressive." Those not aggressive enough and those too aggressive die out. What is interesting is that this aggression isn't genetic selection, but merely group selection via predator-prey dynamics on a viscous grid.

If all of us were hawks, we'd be all dead by now. If all of us were doves, we'd be all mohammeds. But maybe this is too speculative to be a rational theory. I argue that Hindus have reached that balanced distribution and that is what has allowed us to survive as continuous civilization. We have them both and need not fear the loss of hawks. And maybe just like that game, maintaining a healthy diversity of hawks and doves will ensure our survival, i.e. we will not go out with a bang or wimp out without a puff.




S

[Sanku]

- I argue that Hindus have reached that balanced distribution and that is what has allowed us to survive as continuous civilization.

This is something I had postulated and discussed before too; I agree the Hindu society developed a ideal balance for long term survival + plus the presence of hawks allowed Indic systems to forgive; so essential to doing well in tit-for-tat solution in iterated prisoners dilemna.

The problem is -- Islamism changed the game!! No longer forgiving helped and the balance of hawks and doves needed changed drastically because
1) Older hindu hawks were wiped out
2) To counter Islamism what we needed were in general higher number of hawks within us.

So the equilibrium was broken and a suboptimal solution or balance created -- that of a weakly Islamic state (as proved by Shiv)

What we are trying to do is to restore the balance to previous levels where Hindu society was resurgent and Indic systems ruled the roost.

I dare say we will need a different balance of Hawks and doves now as compared to the time when we never saw Islamism.

[Sumeet]

Could someone please help me recall every major instance of Islamist terrorism starting with the Mumbai blasts of 1993. I need a list of every act with dates so we can commemorate every date. Lest we forget.

If such a list does not already exist, we need to make one now. I would appreciate any help. Such a list will be a powerful tool in talking to Macaulay-dhimmis, if used with the appropriate sarcastic+soothing words.

Mass emailing the list and making it easily locatable by Google would also be of some use.

List has been taken from
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/59319

And those marked with * are my additions to the list. The list is organised into 3 subsections, attacks in India, massacre of hindus & sikhs of Kashmir and finally attack on their own brethen. Hope this is a comprehensive one. I have added links to back up claim for not so known attacks. Please feel free to add. Shiv, is this good enough ? or you got some suggestions.

Major Islamist Terrorist Attacks In India

• March 12, 1993 - A series of bomb blasts, planted by Muslim underworld figures, rock the country's commercial capital of Bombay, killing some 260 people and injuring 713.
  
  Dec 6 1997: 3 train bombings at Tiruchi, Erode and at Thrissur on the anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition kill 10 persons and injure 72 others.
  
  February 14, 1998 - 46 persons were killed and more than 200 injured when 13 blasts ripped through Coimbatore, members from Al-Umma, All India Al-Jihad Committee, and Peoples Democratic Party were found to be behind the attack.
  
  December 24-31, 1999 – Pakistani militants hijack an Indian Airlines flight from Kathmandu to New Delhi with 189 people aboard, kill one passenger and force the release of three jailed Muslim militants in exchange.
  
  * May 21, 2000 - Series of attack since this day rocked number of churches, a temple and mosque.
  http://www.hvk.org/articles/0700/85.html
  
  August 14, 2000: 9 killed and 36 injured when an IED ripped through the last compartment of the Muzaffarpur-Ahmedabad Sabarmati Express. 2 SIMI members later arrested.
  
  December 22, 2000 - Lashkar-e-Taiba militants attack the Red Fort in Delhi that left two Army personnel and a civilian dead.
  
  March 2001: Rioting in Kanpur kills 5, including a magistrate when police attempt to prevent SIMI from attending an inflammatory rally
  
  October 1, 2001 - At least 21 people killed in a suicide bomb explosion and gunfire at the assembly in Kashmir in an attack by suspected Islamic militants.
  
  December 13, 2001 - Heavily armed Islamic militant group opened fire in Parliament complex, killing several people in an unprecedented attack on the seat of power in the world's biggest democracy.
  
  January 22, 2002 - Four people were killed in an attack on the American Center, Kolkata by Lashkar-e-Taiba militants.
  
  March 30, 2002 - Seven Hindus killed in an attack by Islamic militants on the Raghunath Temple in Jammu.
  
  May 14, 2002 - More than 30 army men were killed in a terrorist attack on an Army camp near Jammu.
  
  September 24, 2002 - 35 people were killed when 2 Lashkar-e-Taiba militants attacked the Akshardham temple in Gandhinagar, Gujarat.
  
  December 2, 2002 - Two persons were killed and 31 injured in a powerful explosion in a bus outside the crowded Ghatkopar railway station in Mumbai. Students Islamic Movement of India was suspected to be behind the blasts
  
  December 6, 2002 - Twenty-five people were injured in a bomb blast by members of the Students Islamic Movement of India at McDonalds fast food restaurant at Mumbai Central railway station. The bomb was planted in the airconditioner duct. It was suspected to be a crude bomb.
  
  January 27, 2003 - At least 30 people were injured when a bomb planted on a bicycle went off throwing splinters of sharp nails outside Vile Parle railway station in Mumbai. Members of SIMI were found to be behind the attack.
  
  March 13, 2003 - A powerful bomb blast shattered a bogie of a local train at Mulund railway station in Mumbai during peak hours killing 11 people and injuring more than 65. This was the most powerful serial explosion.
  
  August 23, 2003 - Two bombings at the Gateway of India and the Mumba Devi temple in Mumbai killed 52, injured 167. Terrorists from Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Students Islamic Movement of India were found to be behind the attacks.
  
  July 28, 2003 - Bus blast kills 3 and injures 31 others in Mumbai. Pakistani intelligence agency: ISI and members of the Students Islamic Movement of India were found to be behind the blast.
  
  July 5, 2005 - Five Bangladeshi terrorists, trained by the Jaish-e-Mohammad, attacked the Ram Janmabhumi in Ayodhya, all 5 killed, 1 civilian died.
  
  October 29, 2005 - 67 people were killed and 224 injured in serial bombings in major Delhi markets on Diwali eve. A Pakistani group, Islamic Inquilab Mahaz, claimed responsibility for the attack. The group is linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba.
  
  December 28, 2005: Jihadi gunman conducts attack on IISc campus in Bangalore killing 1.
  
  March 7, 2006 - At least 20 persons were killed and over 101 injured when two blasts rocked Varanasi. The first blast took place at the Sankat Mochan Hanuman temple, the second at the Varanasi railway station. Terrorists from Lashkar-e-Taiba were found to be behind the attack.
  
  June 1, 2006 - Three heavily armed terrorists were killed in an encounter with the police when they tried to drive through the security cordon guarding the RSS headquarters in Nagpur. Two policemen were injured in the encounter.
  
  July 11, 2006 - At least 200 people killed in a series of 7 train bombing during the evening rush hour near Bombay.
  
  August 25, 2007 - At least 42 people were killed in two blasts in Hyderabad's Lumbini park and a restaurant. The police reportedly managed to find and defuse another bomb in the same area.
  
  *November 23, 2007 - 6 consecutive serial blasts rocked Lucknow, Varanasi and Faizabad courts in Uttar Pradesh on 23 November 2007 afternoon in a span of 25 minutes, in which reportedly many people were killed and several others injured.

Massacre of Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir

• 2007
  *July 22, 2007 - 15 people injured in the second grenade attack on Amarnath pilgrims in a week. Terrorists hurled a grenade at pilgrims who gathered to have lunch at Pahalgam on Saturday on way to the cave shrine.
  http://www.hinduonnet.com/2007/07/22/st ... 131200.htm
  
  *July 17, 2007 - 1 dead and 19 injured in a grenade attack near a crowded Hindu pilgrimage camp in Baltal.
  http://in.news.yahoo.com/070718/43/6i6a6.html
  
  
  2006
  April 30: 19 Hindus killed in remote villages of Panjdobi and Thava in Doda district of Jammu and Kashmir
  May 1: 13 Hindus killed in Vasantpur area of Udhampur district of Jammu and Kashmir
  May 23: 7 Hindu tourists killed in grenade attack in Srinagar
  May 25: 3 Hindu tourists killed, seven injured in grenade attack in Srinagar
  May 31: 21 Hindu tourists wounded in grenade attack in Srinagar
  June 12: 1 Amarnath pilgrim killed, 31 wounded in grenade attack in Jammu
  June 12: 8 Hindu laborers killed, 5 wounded in Anantnag district
  
  
  2004
  April 5: Seven persons killed in Pahalgam area of Anantnag district
  June 12: 5 Hindu tourists killed in Pahalgam
  
  
  2003
  March 24: 24 Hindus killed in Nadimarg village near Shopian in Pulwama
  July 7: 5 Hindus killed in Nowshahra
  
  
  2002
  January 1: 6 Hindus killed in Magnar village of Poonch
  January 7: 17 Hindus killed in Ramsoo area of Jammu district, 6 killed in Sonway in Pogal area of Banihal
  February 17: 8 Hindus gunned down at Bhambal-Nerla village in Rajouri district
  May 14: 33 persons, killed at Kaluchak on the Jammu-Pathankote highway
  July 13: 28 Hindus killed in Rajiv Nagar in Jammu
  August 6: 9 Amarnath pilgrims killed and 32 wounded at a base camp at Nunwan near Pahalgam
  August 29: 10 Hindus killed in Rajouri and Doda districts
  November 24: 14 killed and 53 injured at the historic Raghunath temple in Jammu
  
  
  2001
  February 3: 8 Sikhs gunned down in Mahjoornagar in Srinagar
  February 11: 15 Gujjar families massacred in Kot-Chadwal in Rajouri district
  March 17: 8 killed near Atholi in Doda district
  May 10: 8 Hindus killed in Paddar Kishtwar, Doda
  July 21: 13 Hindus killed in Amarnath attack
  July 21: 20 Hindus killed in Kishtwar, Doda
  July 22: 15 Hindus killed in Cheergi and Tagood villages in Doda district of Jammu and Kashmir
  August 4: 15 Hindus gunned down in Shrotidar village in Doda district of Jammu and Kashmir
  
  
  2000
  February 28: Five Hindu drivers killed near Qazigund in Anantnag district
  February 29: Five Sikh drivers killed in Qazikund, Kashmir Valley
  March 20: 35 Sikhs killed in Chittisinghpura village near Jammu
  August 1: 31 Hindus including Amarnath pilgrims killed in Pahalgam in Anantnag
  August 1: 27 labourers killed in Qazigund and Achabal in Anantnag district
  August 2: 7 Hindus killed in Kupwara district
  August 2: 12 Hindus killed in Doda district of Jammu
  August 2: 8 Hindus killed in Marwah, Doda
  November 24: Five Hindus killed in Kishtwar, Doda
  
  
  1999
  February 13: Five Hindus killed in Udhampur
  February 19: 19 Hindus killed in Rajouri, 4 in Udhampur
  June 29: 12 Hindu labourers from Bihar killed in Santhu village of Annatnag
  July 1: Nine Hindus killed in Mendhar Poonch
  July 15: 15 Hindus of Thathri village of Doda killed
  July 19: 15 Hindus killed at Layata in Doda
  
  
  1998
  Januaryuary 26: 23 Kashmiri pandits killed in Wandhama in Valley
  April 17: 29 Hindus killed in Prankot and Dhakikot villages of Udhampur
  April 18: 27 Hindus killed at Prankote (Doda)
  May 5: Five Hindus killed in Surankot Poonch
  May 6: 11 Hindu Village Defence Committee members killed
  June 19: 25 Hindus killed in Chapnari (Doda)
  July 27: 20 Hindus killed in Kishtwar, Doda
  August 8: Thirty-five labourers killed in Kalaban, bordering Doda and Chamba district of Himachal Pradesh
  
  
  1997
  January 25 17 Hindus killed in Sumber area of Doda district
  January 26: 25 Kashmiri Pandits killed in Wundhama, Srinagar
  April 7: Seven Kashmiri Pandits killed in Sangrampur
  June 24: 8 Hindus killed in Swari (Rajouri)
  September 24: Seven Hindus killed in Sawari village of Rajouri
  
  
  1996
  January 5: 16 Hindus killed in Barshalla village of Doda
  Januaryuary 12: Seven Hindus killed in Bhaderwah, Doda
  May 6: 17 Hindus killed in Sumbar Ramban tehsil of Doda
  June 7-8: Nine Hindus killed in Kamladi village of Doda
  
  
  1993
  August 1: 17 Hindus killed in Sarthal in Bhaderwah area of Doda when Hindus were segregated from a bus

Islamist Terrorist attacking people of their own faith:

• *April 14, 2006 - Twin Explosion rocks Jama Masjid, at least thirteen people were injured in the blasts.
  
  *September 8, 2006 - at least 37 people killed and 125 injured in a series of bomb blasts in the vicinity of a mosque in Malegaon, Maharashtra.
  
  *May 18, 2007 - at least 13 people were killed, including 4 killed by the Indian police in the rioting that followed, in the bombing at Mecca Masjid, Hyderabad that took place during the Friday prayers.
  
  *February 19, 2007 - Samjhauta Express Bombing, twin blast rips railway carriages causing 68 deaths of mostly Pakistani civilians. Some Indian military personnel and civilians amongst people dead.
  
  October 12, 2007: IED blast at the shrine of Sufi saint Moinudeen Chishti in Ajmer. 2 killed, 28 wounded.

[Johann]

A few jihadi attacks that arent on the list;

6 DEC 1997: 3 train bombings at Tiruchi, Erode and at Thrissur on the anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition kill 10 persons and injure 72 others.

14 AUG 2000: 9 killed and 36 injured when an IED ripped through the last compartment of the Muzaffarpur-Ahmedabad Sabarmati Express. 2 SIMI members later arrested.

MAR 2001: Rioting in Kanpur kills 5, including a magistrate when police attempt to prevent SIMI from attending an inflammatory rally

28 DEC 2005: Jihadi gunman conducts attack on IISc campus in Bangalore killing 1.

11 JUL 2006: 7 IEDs on Mumbai commuter trains kill 207.

12 OCT 2007: IED blast at the shrine of Sufi saint Moinudeen Chishti in Ajmer. 2 killed, 28 wounded.

________________________________________________________

- The list lacks a full and complete list of fatalities in riots organised by jihadi groups, particularly SIMI.

- The list probably misses a number of civilian victims of attacks by jihadi groups in Assam.

- This list does not include a number of low-intensity explosions that did not produce fatalities, some of which were engineering failures, and some of which were essentially training runs by jihadi cells.

- The scale of the jihadi threat beyond J&K isnt really apparant until you start to look at the statistics on the numbers of weapons and quantities of explosives captured in a given year from jihadis. There would be many, many more dead people on Indian streets if the state was as bad at the counter-terrorism game as some people think.

[Sumeet]

Johann,

I have included the incidents you mentioned.

- The scale of the jihadi threat beyond J&K isnt really apparant until you start to look at the statistics on the numbers of weapons and quantities of explosives captured in a given year from jihadis. There would be many, many more dead people on Indian streets if the state was as bad at the counter-terrorism game as some people think.

Need help from someone or if you can contribute on this topic. thanks.

[shiv]

- I wonder if "dhimmis" are essential to the resurgent hawks survivability, just as the moderate muslim facade helps islamism's survival?

- There is a paper I wrote a while ago on the prudent predator in a study of complex system dynamics. That game shows that a predator that eats all its prey dies. In a population beginning with a broad distribution of the aggression allele (uniform distribution), it turns out that a predator-prey model will evolve the allele's distribution into a stationary where aggression peaks at "moderately aggressive." Those not aggressive enough and those too aggressive die out. What is interesting is that this aggression isn't genetic selection, but merely group selection via predator-prey dynamics on a viscous grid.

If all of us were hawks, we'd be all dead by now. If all of us were doves, we'd be all mohammeds. But maybe this is too speculative to be a rational theory. I argue that Hindus have reached that balanced distribution and that is what has allowed us to survive as continuous civilization. We have them both and need not fear the loss of hawks. And maybe just like that game, maintaining a healthy diversity of hawks and doves will ensure our survival, i.e. we will not go out with a bang or wimp out without a puff.


S

Samuel. Interesting stuff. Your work holds true if the hawks invariably kill the doves. However, I applied the rule that hawks will kill only if the dove does not submit.

Richard Dawkins deals with these scenarios in his book "The Selfish Gene". I based my initial premises on his model and he has quoted a Nash equilibrium of 60:40 Hawk to Dove. But this is in a society that is wholly Islamic. When that society mixes with Kafir society the dynamics change somewhat.

As Sanku pointed out the equilibrium that has been reached is a weakly Islamic state which is an apt decriptor fo India currently. However, as you pointed out dhimmis did become essential for survival, but their presence in numbers creates Islamic characteristics to the Indian state.

[shiv]

Thank you Sumeet and Johann. I wll tabulate according to date so we have a "Lest we forget" for every one of those dates.

[surinder]

Thank you Sumeet and Johann. I wll tabulate according to date so we have a "Lest we forget" for every one of those dates.

It is funny that you proposed this list, I was thinking of it for the last few days. A couple of suggestions:

(1) Post it in a searchable web page. (Googlepages are free)
(2) Add a total figure in the end
(3) For each incident (or at least some of them) add a newspaper link.

Furthermore, this is not enough. Please note that ONE msjid was destroyed, and muzlims went into paroxysms of rage, anger, and deep philosophical introspection. Imagine what was the state of affairs of Hindus which had 1000s of historical temples destroyed. Another list like the above should be drawn. Lest we forget: These are the ancient Hindu temples destroyed. (examples: ancient temples of Varanasi, Mathura, Delhi etc.). Hopefully that list will be at a different web address so as not to dilute or confuse the issue or provide ammunition for those who seek it. The equivalent of "Remember Babri" is not "remember these killings", it should be "Remember These Temples."