How violent of Bhima. He should have declared satyagraha instead of resorting to violence. He should have gone for fast. Given that he was a stout big powerful man, he would taken longer for his body to reduced to skeletons. This way he would had the privelege of a tormenting Duryodhana for a longer time and a better chance that Duryodhana would alter his behaviour after seeing that Bhima is on a hunger strike.shiv wrote:Bhima after all proceeded to wash himself in Duryodhana's blood after breaking open Duryodhana's thigh - the lap that Duryodhana had forced Draupadi to sit on.
surinder wrote:How violent of Bhima. He should have declared satyagraha instead of resorting to violence. He should have gone for fast. Given that he was a stout big powerful man, he would taken longer for his body to reduced to skeletons. This way he would had the privelege of a tormenting Duryodhana for a longer time and a better chance that Duryodhana would alter his behaviour after seeing that Bhima is on a hunger strike.shiv wrote:Bhima after all proceeded to wash himself in Duryodhana's blood after breaking open Duryodhana's thigh - the lap that Duryodhana had forced Draupadi to sit on.
I hope Bhima's progeny learn that violence is bad, it only begets more violence, and that more could have achieved by love and use of satyagraha. I hope Bhima's progeny would purge all atrocities of Duryodhana from the NCERT books and ban any books insulting to or talking of Duryodhan's deeds. And, while we are at it, reservation for Duryodhana's progeny is a good idea, especially since all the top plum jobs and economy is control of Bhima's descendents.Prem wrote:Bhima must have been fascist RSS member . Who enrolled him < Lord Krishna ?
dhu Dec 8 2007, 08:45 AM Post #59
It needs to be remembered that, in the greater timeline, the Christians came before the Muslims. Islam was formed only after Augustine had introduced the concept of divine will to Christianity; so we do not really see in Islam the struggles to appropriate traditions and to formulate a Hindu Code for subjects (to find the Hindu version of the law-giver Moses - that is, to manufacture a hoax). Islam is the leaner and meaner version of Christianity; Islam has done away with these needs and is absolutely assured of its "mission".
The so-called western world will be done in by Islam precisely because Islam is the more refined version of Christianity; Islam does not need to manufacture a sham Liberation theology since it is quite visibly the "religion" of, for, and by the darkies.
But in India, we were exposed to the Version 2 of Islam much before the Version 1 of Christianity. Theoretically, this should automatically lead to a de-dhimmification just as the antidote is often a more dilute version of the poison. Even now, we can see elaborate arguments being formulated against Christianity which will lead eventually to de-dhimmification (eg, Balu) if not a renewal of our Renaissance. Against Islam, we would have had to content ourselves with "Mohammad is a child molester" type arguments and there would have been no progression from the human wasteland of Islam. So Christianity is serving as a foil against which we can ground our renewal. As with everything, however, it is a race against the clock.
Many times, I have seen the most Dhimmi individuals actually turn around and surprise with a caustic comment against Islam/Christianity or at least an acknowledgement of the Hindu view. These tend to be the older generation. Newer genration has been infected with version 3 of Communism/Liberalism/Secularism. Communism is the western product that prevent sympathy from accruing to the authentic traditions of the darkies and instead channels these sympathies towards Islam or heterodox niches in western civilization. The biggest mistake we can make is thinking that Liberalism is a repudiation of the Christian origins of the West.
Just some stray thoughts; feel free to contradict.
Even now there is a split on what the threat is.Sorry defence of Hindu ineptitude
Second Opinion: Priyadarsi Dutta
Girilal Jain, as quoted by Ms Sandhya Jain in her article, "Émigré of Ayodhya" (December 11), had the sapience that Hindus could not sustain anti-Muslim feeling except temporarily. The admission of this truism, however, will embolden the soldiers of Allah, now in the knowledge of the enemy's susceptibility.
Ms Jain's intentions are noble when she says that Muslims (and Christians), like Jews, should abandon the desire to dominate India, and seek space in its nurturing bosom. Historian Devendra Swarup had expressed a similar desire when he said in his article "December 6, 1992 and after" (December 1) that the Ram Janmabhoomi movement "contained the seeds of future Hindu-Muslim understanding based on acceptance of a common heritage". It's interesting to entertain the hope that one day the lion shall lie down beside the lamb upon green grass. But history tells us that spatial and demographic share of Hindus has been dwindling over the last 1,000 years.
Ms Jain correctly says that Hindus have no fight with Islam, not (even) past iconoclastic Islam. But it's more of a proof of dullness and ineptitude of the Hindu mind, rather its penchant for charity. Hindus were expected to be -- given that Islam dominated India for 700 years -- the best informed people on Islam. But they are still one of the worst informed. Riots are rather knee-jerk reactions to Muslim behavioural pattern.
The Hindu approach to everything is ad hoc, whereas Islam's agenda is long-term. Is it not surprising that medieval Hindus never produced a single document that critically examines Islam? It was done by Raja Rammohun Roy (who knew Arabic), Girish Chandra Sen of the Brahmo Samaj, Swami Dayanand -- all in British India; whereas Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel worked in the post-1947 period, following European scholars.
But the Europeans (Christians) took to studying Islam in the 14th century. Raymond Lully, in 1276 AD, had set up his first school on Majorca Island (Spain) to impart Franciscan missionaries knowledge of Arabic and Islam. After 1311, five schools were set up by the Catholic Church in Rome, Bologna, Paris, Oxford, and Salamanca -- with chairs of Hebrew, Chaldaic and Arabic. Bernard Lewis says that the first chair of Arabic in France was founded in the College de France by King Francis I in 1538; and in England, the first chair of Arabic was founded in Cambridge in 1633 and the second in Oxford three years later.
Whys is it necessary to produce a document. Is producing a document the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is establishing a chair the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is this not Macaulay speaking where the West has done great things that we haven't.ramana wrote:op-Ed in Pioneer, 13 Dec., 2007Is it not surprising that medieval Hindus never produced a single document that critically examines Islam? It was done by Raja Rammohun Roy (who knew Arabic), Girish Chandra Sen of the Brahmo Samaj, Swami Dayanand -- all in British India; whereas Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel worked in the post-1947 period, following European scholars.
But the Europeans (Christians) took to studying Islam in the 14th century. Raymond Lully, in 1276 AD, had set up his first school on Majorca Island (Spain) to impart Franciscan missionaries knowledge of Arabic and Islam. After 1311, five schools were set up by the Catholic Church in Rome, Bologna, Paris, Oxford, and Salamanca -- with chairs of Hebrew, Chaldaic and Arabic. Bernard Lewis says that the first chair of Arabic in France was founded in the College de France by King Francis I in 1538; and in England, the first chair of Arabic was founded in Cambridge in 1633 and the second in Oxford three years later.
1000 years of warfare is good enough document .surinder wrote:Whys is it necessary to produce a document. Is producing a document the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is establishing a chair the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is this not Macaulay speaking where the West has done great things that we haven't.ramana wrote:op-Ed in Pioneer, 13 Dec., 2007
Surinder. Documents are important for several reasons. Yes it is Macaulay speaking but..surinder wrote:
Whys is it necessary to produce a document. Is producing a document the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is establishing a chair the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is this not Macaulay speaking where the West has done great things that we haven't.
AshokS wrote:Had dinner with Bangladesh cardiologist last night. The fellow is a Bangladeshi Hindu, and from an affluent family in Bangladesh. What he was telling was appalling on the treatment of Hindu's in this paki wannbe state.
These are more anecdotal stories than anything else, however are telling about the underlying currents in the Bangladeshi society than any commentary from a newspaper or motivated Bangladesi forum members:
1) He said Hindus are treated as second class citizens in the country and they are discriminated against
2) They are abused and threatened (he said that even with his muslim "friends", if they made fun of the Hindu religion he would have to just keep quiet, if he tried to make a comeback with a joke on Mullahs, he had a real fear that his so called friends would attack or kill him)
3) Although he had a Hindu surname, he would use his first name which (to me) sounded somewhat ambiguous as to his religion
4)Said the country was a "shithole" and he was glad to have left, thought these muslims were barbarians
5) One of his Hindu Bangladeshi friends that scored 95% in the medical admissions examination, was denied entry into medical school in Bangladesh, because during the oral interviews there was a mullah that said "why should we admit you, since after you graduate you will go to India anyway"
Surinder/Shiv: Macaulay is not a new Gyan, it has been long known and written in vernacular language. In fact I have a book in Hindi "Ved'eon Kaa Yatharth Swaroop" that was published 40 years ago to rebut the misrepresentation and twisting of Vedas done by western translators and and so called experts like Macaulay , It quote in english followed by Hindi translation of Macaulay and his likes and shows how it was wrongly translated with a malicious streak.shiv wrote:Surinder. Documents are important for several reasons. Yes it is Macaulay speaking but..surinder wrote:
Whys is it necessary to produce a document. Is producing a document the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is establishing a chair the only proof that we have understood a phenomena? Is this not Macaulay speaking where the West has done great things that we haven't.
The first is that We are starting of with a handicap in which anything you say must be first validated in the form of a document that can be seen by many. It matters little that you have written crap in the document. As long as it is seen by many and accepted by some (as any crap invariably will) the document gains mileage. This may be related to an "Is it written?' or "Is it in the book" mindset that currently rule.
Secondly but no less important "documents" are essential for Indian because they can be (and must be) translated into many Indian languages to really reach the Indian population. Translation and reach is vital, and may abstract concepts get lost in the absence of documentation.
Finally, why do you think it is possible for people to deny that massacres ever occurred when the Islamic hordes came in? Many are civilizational memories. Only a few documents exist.
A politician's promise...worth its weight in cow patties.NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh apparently faced embarrassing moments on Thursday when an inconsolable kin of a victim in the Parliament attack case accused the government of not fulfilling the promises made to her.
A tearful Vimla Devi, wife of ASI Nanak Chand, who was killed in the 2001 terrorist attack, turned up at a function that was also attended by Leader of the Opposition L K Advani and Home Minister Shivraj Patil to pay tributes to the martyrs.
Narrating her woes, she told the function in Parliament house that she was yet to get land for a petrol pump which had been allotted to her as part of compensation following the killing of her husband.
"We don't want all these tributes to be paid. I don't have anything. Nobody listens to us," she said.
As Vimla Devi was escorted out, Swaraj later told reporters that the leaders spoke to the Home Minister who assured them that the process of relief and rehabilitation of the victims' families would be completed by next year.
http://www.saujanyabooks.com/details.aspx?id=30016This book unfolds the fact that the death of Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, were actually secret cases of murder by poisoning. It unmasks the real culprits behind the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. It exposes the agencies behind the assassination of the first Prime Minister of Pakistan, Liaquat Ali Khan, as well as the murder of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, under the judicial verdict, based on concocted charges. This book also exposes the politicians behind the assassination of Murtaza Ali Bhutto.
Providing a genesis of the 'Kashmir Problem', the book unveils its real nature. it reveals that the 'Kashmir Problems' was created by 'various forces', for plunging South-Asia into a perpetual cold-cum-hot war Zone, so that, the region would never achieve political and economic stability.
"It narrates how American CIA, is the creator and abettor of global terrorism, for its own ends". America has not only betrayed the people of Jammu and Kashmir, but is also sponsoring most of the International Terrorists' Organisations.
This book also exposes the role of Mutti Mohammad Sayeed, the then Home Minister of India (now Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir), in facilitating the murder of Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India, and also, how he stage-managed the kidnapping drama, of his daughter, Rubiya Sayeed, by JKLF militants. It discloses how, Yaseen Malik, the JKLF Chief, hatched a conspiracy with Multi Mohammad Sayeed, to enact a 'mock drama' of Rubiy's kidnapping.
Also narrated in the book is, how a secret plan was made, to kill Dr. Farooq Abdullah, former Chief Minister of J&K State. Interesting insights are also offered about the background of the Kargil War, as the book exposes its conspirators. The book also unmasks the facts about other shocking events, such as the suicidal attack on the Indian Parliament, the 9/11 attacks in USA on the World Trade Centre, New York, and in Pentagon, Washington.
The book unmasks the role of CIA and America, in hatching a conspiracy, to disturb peace in the world, for their own secret benefits. It also narrates how China secretly helped General Parvez Musharraf to oust Nawaz Sharief, by staging a counter-coup, in order to contain USA and India.
There is also mention of the 'real creators' of the Partition of India. In the end, the book presents a 'Road Map', for resolving the 'Kashmir dispute', to bring an 'era of peace and stability,' in South Asia, and to prevent it from unwarranted Nuclear Conflicts. It also reveals the intentions of India and the Anglo-American blocks, about the resolution of the Kashmir problem, under the garb of the recent Indo-Pak CBMs. There are many other shocking disclosures, that hardly and one knows, which would attract the interest and attention of the world.
This is why we have the Indian interests thread to come up with the common interets or opium to make all the groups pull in the right direction.in the technological society, jacques ellul states that there are three society types in existence today: america, western europe, and india. he also stated that europe lagged 20 years behind america in the application of technique, especially psychological technique wherein the experience of subjectivity is injected as a part of controllled revolt.. yet he still saw india as another completely independent form of modern society. he wrote this when the so-called "western world" was enamored with China and hardly anyone mentioned india. there is another side to ellul in that he did a u-turn to reembrace catholicism as an expression of subjectivity in a technicized world. it seemed rather peripheral to the arguments he put forth in his three related works (the technological society, the technological bluff, and propaganda), but i think we can conclude from ellul's disparate statements about india.. that the modern technical society requires injection of a subjective opium at all points to prop up the entire edifice, while indian society does not
Rye wrote:We may not forget but the lowlives in the political system have already forgotten. This is what Indians can expect from the Govt. of India for giving their lives in service of the country.
Patriotic Indians will be treated like s**t by the Indian govt. for sacrificing their lives for the country while those that are responsible for this situation walk without fear from islamic terrorism because they have Z-category security....this situation continues even as these Z-category oiseaules continue to pretend that hindus a bigger threat to Indian than the pakis and the islamists put together.
These worties in the political spectrum only need to be afraid of "a few embarrassing moments" for spitting on the memories of Indian patriots and the sacrifice they made for India and Indians.
A politician's promise...worth its weight in cow patties.NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh apparently faced embarrassing moments on Thursday when an inconsolable kin of a victim in the Parliament attack case accused the government of not fulfilling the promises made to her.
A tearful Vimla Devi, wife of ASI Nanak Chand, who was killed in the 2001 terrorist attack, turned up at a function that was also attended by Leader of the Opposition L K Advani and Home Minister Shivraj Patil to pay tributes to the martyrs.
Narrating her woes, she told the function in Parliament house that she was yet to get land for a petrol pump which had been allotted to her as part of compensation following the killing of her husband.
"We don't want all these tributes to be paid. I don't have anything. Nobody listens to us," she said.
As Vimla Devi was escorted out, Swaraj later told reporters that the leaders spoke to the Home Minister who assured them that the process of relief and rehabilitation of the victims' families would be completed by next year.
This poor widow will be dead and/or this issue will be forgotten and Shivraj Patil won't be in office -- of course, Shivraj Patil can pull out any promise out of his nether end because he knows it won't be his problem by this time next year.
Agreed. This is just the latest round of salt-rubbing being done by politicians and political parties on the wounds of the families that sacrified a hero for the nation. None of the monies awarded to families of martyr reaches them most of the time, it appears. Shame on the thieves (bureaucracy and politicos) who deprive them the measly amount they are being paid by the GoI.Sadly an attitude which runs across party lines. Wasn't the NDA govt in power at that time. Whether the ruling parties have a nationalistic agenda or socialistic they still have high apathy towards the Jawan.
(its a joke peace birather)Legacy of suppression
Prafull Goradia
In the face of betrayal or oppression, especially by Muslims, Hindus react either in a sadistic or masochistic manner
It is a shame that a controversy over a criminal is being treated as a communal provocation merely because Sohrabuddin happened to be a Muslim. Worse, Mohammed Afzal is held back from the hangman's noose merely because he is a Muslim. Which Hindu or Christian would be considered for pardon after his death sentence was confirmed by the Supreme Court for masterminding the Parliament House attack? People have to be mentally sick to be so biased for criminals. No responsible Muslim has pleaded for the criminals; only India's Hindu rulers have.
The Hindu civilisation is not the only one to throw up a fringe of perverted rulers. Nazi Germany had produced quite a large number of sadists, mainly members of the SS, an abbreviation of Schutz Staffel or protection team. They provided the core of the officers and men who organised the death camps like Auschwitz, Belsec, Treblinka, which served to exterminate millions of Jews. The lead blame for the massacres is laid at the door of Adolf Hitler. It was he who inflamed the hatred. Why he hated Hebrews, he explained at length in his autobiography, Mem Kampf. In one of his many sentences, "I recognised the Jew as a cold hearted, shameless and calculating director of this revolting vice (prostitution) traffic in the scum of the big city, a cold shudder ran down my back." Evidently, there was an element of morbid sexuality in his ravings.
Many a German of the time also suffered from such an ailment. It was widely alleged that Jews had betrayed Germany and were behind the country's defeat in World War I. The allegation stuck readily because a Jew was known to be a Jew first, a Jew second and only then a German, Spaniard or any national. He was a supra nationalist. It was, therefore, possible for Hitler to excite anger among the German masses. The anger took a sadistic turn which gave them pleasure by inflicting pain on Jews. These Germans suffered from sadism so called by its first sponsor and theorist Marquis de Sade.
Hindus have also suffered but for much longer, for many centuries. The Hindukush was an open gateway for invaders. Whatever their different cruelties be, the pre-Islamic aggressors got absorbed into the Hindu mainstream in due course. The post-Islamic conquerors, whether the Dutch, the French, the Portuguese or the British, did not stay indefinitely and left India without doing permanent damage. Muslims neither merged with Hindus nor went away like the Europeans. They ruled, exploited and lived on often to oppress. Their leaders like Sir Syed Ahmad Khan had no hesitation in declaring that Hindus and Muslims are so different that they cannot co-exist.
RM Sayani, a liberal Muslim, was the Congress president in 1896. In his official address at the annual session, he said that before the advent of the British in India, "Musalmans were the rulers of the country... Hindus stood in awe of them... By a stroke of misfortune, Musalmans had to abdicate their position and descend to the level of their Hindu fellow countrymen... Musalmans, who are a very sensitive race... would have nothing to do... with their fellow subjects" (RC Majumdar).
It was only after the battle of Plassey and the subsequent advent of the Bengal Renaissance that the Hindu was able to come into his own. It is, however, remarkable that even after independence, Hindus have not been able to rid themselves of the dread of his past rulers, which is symptomised by the Congress having to take the side of criminals like Mohammed Afzal and Sohrabuddin.
Evidently, the reaction in several sections of Hindus has been masochistic, which is a state of mind that derives pleasure by inflicting pain upon itself. This psycho-sexual disorder was first located by Chevalier Leopold von Sacher-Masoch. In a way it is the opposite of sadism.
Mahatma Gandhi, perhaps unwittingly, aided and abetted this mental sickness by asking Hindus to prefer death, rather than retaliation, in the face of Muslim wrath. This he did repeatedly whether at the time of the Moplah riots, the violence at Kohat in NWFP, or during the tragedy of October 1939 which occurred in the Sukkur district of Sind.
On December 23, 1926, Swami Shraddhanand was murdered by one Abdul Rashid. Rashid was sentenced to death and hanged in due course and the funeral procession was joined by some 50,000 Muslims. Gandhi called Rashid "a brother, I do not even regard him as guilty of Swami's murder... he has left all the lessons of peace written in his blood".
In the face of betrayal or oppression, should not a people react normally, be neither sadist nor masochistic? An example would be the conduct of the people of Gujarat in the face of the Godhra carnage on February 27, 2002. Tit-for-tat, in Mohammed Ali Jinnah's words, no more no less, is a normal human reaction.
Thanks ramanaji for the Caroll Quigley's book link. Was wondering if one way to look at it is (I may be misspeaking since have not completed Caroll's book yet)ramana wrote:The progress of civilization is such that the reformers become vested interests and keep the status quo. The DIE is now the vested interests and is interested in keeping the status quo which preserves their pre-eminence. Hence this supression of the periphery. The trajectory of history is that at this stage there are three options:
1) The whole setup collapses. Outsiders take over. Eg. Sassanid Iran and Byzantium etc.
2) The vested interests adopt the new reformers and the civilization carries on. British royalty.
3) The peripehry captures the center and a new age begins. Mahabharat und so weiter.
shiv wrote:On the same lines, if you really want to know the depths to which dhim-wits will sink: One is Jaish-e-Mohammad" and the other is "Jaish-ri Ram"SwamyG wrote:Look at the equal-equalitis from the article.
There is now equivalence between violent followers of poobah and a revered Hindu God. Tit for tat is the only thing that will work under the circumstances. "You toucha my car, I smasha yer face"
I was doing my teeny-tiny part of spreading awareness among relatives - all young and TamBrams - and somebody raised the "F" word - Fanaticism.shiv wrote:Tit for tat is the only thing that will work under the circumstances. "You toucha my car, I smasha yer face"
Well I harbor no grandiose imagination and am not equating myself to Jessop, but then am I just rationalizing my behavior using that famous movie dialog?Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Yes, they are own-goals and 'reformed' jihadists, ie, politically oriented Islamists have been shouting this message as loudly as they can since 9-11, or in the Egyptian (longest modern jihad) case, since 1997.shiv wrote:The point I am making is that there is a double hurdle to be crossed when discussing some things. the first is to raise the topic itself - a difficult task in a group that wants to talk Orkut/Bollywood. But once on that path, getting them to overcome their fears and showing to them that they are dhimmis, not true liberals is more difficult. Howevern 9-11 and a whole bunch of Talimaniac yahoos have made the job easier.
9-11, and the Taliban are self goals by Islam on a global scale. jaish e Mohammad, Lashkar e Tayeba, HuM. HuJI and SIMI are own goals by Islam in India. The advantage given to us by these self goals has to be utilised to the hilt.
Maybe, maybe not.There will never be any 'final victory' against Islamism and jihad. There can only be permanent efforts at vigilance, containment and value-centric assimilation.
No Johann. This is the western view and Western dhimmification, if any, may reappear as you say once the bombs stop. In any case "Western dhimmitude" was never so gerat as to preclude any reaction, or even apology when hurt. Indians OTOH had forgotten the existence of life outside dhimmitude.Johann wrote:
But this mobilisation is in effect *only* as long as the bombs keep going off, or threatening to go off. You take away the jihadis, and society will return to its usual dhimmified, or self-dhimmifying state to avoid internal social and political conflict.
This is an interesting question.Johann wrote: Do you really think that the majority of India's ruling elite will worry too much about Islamism if the bombs stopped going off?
