Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 2

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Murugan
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Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 2

Post by Murugan »

Previous Thread is here: Tackling Islamic Extremism in India . {Inserted by Arun_S{Admin hat on}.

---------------------------------
It should be noted well that Hindus have resisted many invasions, many a times defeated invaders, many a times assimilated them and fought them with VERY scant resources and without resorting to Pillaging and looting as a policy of a state or a king who were fighting them.

They may be huns, they may be islamist or britishers – who had ‘easily earned fund and resource’ at their disposal to fight everywhere anytime. Only Hindus gave and is giving befitting answers, ideologically and physically (if required)

The constantly showing of the Hindu in poor light, terming them losers, calling them buffoons and cowards will not recruit soldiers with Winning spirit in Kailashpati’s army. Nobody wd like to join you if you constantly show them in poor light and you yourself is learning and had very limited exposure of the society and country and her history.

Better instill a sense of confidence in the people whom you would like to join you and appreciate your ideology. Reminding them that you are not that sheep but a lion, you can roar, your forefathers roared and charged and chased. You CAN. You MUST and You WILL.
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Post by Murugan »

Sanku:
Right, the word benefit should be 'benefit'
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Post by Sanku »

Murugan wrote:Better instill a sense of confidence in the people whom you would like to join you and appreciate your ideology. Reminding them that you are not that sheep but a lion, you can roar, your forefathers roared and charged and chased. You CAN. You MUST and You WILL.
I think money talks; we have to donate to sites which build up the truth. A severe problem in this regard has been GoI dual policy allowing Muslims to run minority institutions and letting them keep the earnings they make at their religious places of worship but stealing the donations at Hindu institutions.

I mean how different is it from Somnath pillage?

We have to donate to organization which can act as founts for spreading the Indic truth and compete with Dhimmi media.
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Post by Murugan »

Exactly,

People are trying to fight it out to Jihadis and no support is coming forthwith from GoI. Instead, what we see is GoI is actually providing a shield to Jihadis and terrorists by many means.

In this condition you cannot blame people being Dhimmi. They are fighting in a very awkward situation - that proverbial - one hand tied
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Post by Sumeet »

Shiv check these two videos out,

5:35 mins.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g4jlLJWVLlo

4:34 mins
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SgdtODfDO3A&feature=related

He makes a nice point that we are backing off again and again to appease muslims. In the end we will be against a wall. And guess who is against a wall, the one who faces FIRING SQUAD.

if you like watch this too:

4:14min
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kVYEdeYYEMQ&feature=related

3:22min
http://youtube.com/watch?v=95uJ_CKjNw0

Your new theories can be applied to US & Europe too with some modifications.

One needs Glenn Beck type media outlet in india to keep muslims on toe.
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Post by shiv »

The old thread has been consigned to the trashcan archive. I have archived a copy on my HDD for reference.
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Post by shiv »

Muruganji - you need to be patient with me. My style of writing is deliberate and most words are selected with care to be seen in public.

I speak harsh words when I feel something deeply, and your impassioned defence of Hindus makes me only feel sorry, nothing else. But remember that I may have something that you may not immediately notice in mind when I say something.

Hindu behavior only makes me sad and I feel pity for the RSS. As I will explain below - this is neither self hate or shame. It is horror at Hindu blindness an pain at Hindu deafness.

The RSS is an organization that has dhimmified itself by its behavior. Please don't get angry with me for saying that. The RSS acts just like the typical sorry Hindu that you say anglophone psec dhimmis do not know anything about. This is a seriously flawed accusation for a anglophone psec dhimmi like me who lives and works among the very people you think I don't know. My stupidity and ignorance do not extend that far. I only ask for patience. Not anger. We are on the same side.

But I digress. I accused the RSS of having dhimmified itself and said it acts like the typical sorry Hindu of India. The Indian Hindu is just out there in the background going about his life. The RSS is just out there in the background with the Indian Hindus, going about its business.

All through my childhood days and through much of my adulthood, "Hindu" was fine only at home. When you went out your Hinduness could not be shown. Hindu, after all, meant all sorts of undesirable things. The Hindus who did not face this was the Hindu who never really went out and remained withing his Indian surroundings - like the vast majority of Indians. Frogs in their well. "Koopamanduka" in Kannada

It was easy to sit at home, or among the rural population, or in small town India and be Hindu and unashamed - but the moment you came into contact with the outside world you had to tone down your Hinduness. Hindus were a silly people with unacceptable customs. If you were a Hindu you you read and heard all the time about those things the minute you came into contact with the outside world. You cannot become an anglophone or learn about the outside world without coming into contact with it and this contact was a dhimmifying experience from Class 1. But growing up in this environment made me into a canny old rat with a degree of sophistication that I do not find in my own relatives who lived at home, my "dehati" cousins sheltered by their extended family, unexposed to the outside world.

In the outside world it is naive to talk about Hindu greatness among people who have laughed and derided Hindus, or have considered them weird beings till very recently. When you grow up sheltered by Hindu India you cannot begin to develop the level of sophistication with which the Western world and Islamic world operates. Hindus are babies. They can laugh at Hindus and you won't even realise it and you may thank them for their kindness.

But I have digressed again. Just as the Hindu was forced into self denial and self negation in the outside world, the RSS too, which is considered by most Hindus to be doing good social work is considered by the outside world with the same contempt and derision, hatred and ridicule that I saw Hindus being faced with in the outside world. This is an aspect that was hidden from rural India - the india of the regional languages that fills your eyes with tears and your breast with pride.

In the old thread you innocently used a phrase. You spoke of "RSS ideology". Just do a Google for RSS ideology and see how many links point to the ideology that you may want to talk about and how many point to the RSS as a fundamentalist terrorist organization. The RSS is smaller than Hindus and Hinduism. When all Hindus were consdered freaks, the RSS is only a small subset of those freaks.

I believe you are underestimating the venom there is in the world and as a result I can use my Macaulay training to rip your heart into pieces and churn them into the ground, so good have I become at recognizing (and learning) the lousy things that are said about Hindus and Hinduism. If you haven't been exposed to that - it is a good idea to start learning now. The criticism is not done out of self hate or shame - but as a warnng of what actually lies outside. A warning that is ignored by anger and shame. Put aside emotion and see how far Hindus have been pushed down. Only then you can see how far they have to climb up.

The RSS and Hindu organizations are babes in the wood. Even today's news indicates that. In an election speech, Modi made a reference to the encounter killing of one Sohrabuddin.

And you know Sonia's reply? She called the Gujarat government "Merchants of death"

Has any Hindu organization ever considered using that flowery term "Merchant of death" with reference to the followers of Mohammad? Did anyone think of saying that about Buddhadeb whose quislings killed innocents in Nandigram, and who now has the temerity to question the existence of Ram?

No. because we have not learned the ways of the world. We remain comfortable and proud in out little villages and towns of the Indian hinterland, not knowing what the real world is like, neither learning the language of the outside world, nor being aggressive enough to force our languages on them.

Sorry Murugan. Hindu pride is in the gutter. It cannot be redeemed by simple talk. It can only be redeemed by learning the ways of the world and taking the fight onto areas that Hindus have never been exposed to before. Until then I will have harsh words for those who doggedly remain in the dark and do not want to listen to the tales of those who have been to the other side, have seen, and have returned with affection.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Dec 2007 19:36, edited 2 times in total.
Raju

Post by Raju »

I believe you are underestimating the venom there is in the world and as a result I can use my Macaulay training to rip your heart into pieces and churn them into the ground, so good have I become at recognizing (and learning) the lousy things that are said about Hindus and Hinduism. If you haven' beene exposed to that - it is a good idea to start learning now.
Noice.

This is very important, and if people immidiately get defensive about it then they have not understood the complete import of the above statement. There is a need to operate with subtlety but at the same time with great determination. In an online forum where a lot of things are always misunderstood, it is only a few times that the complete import of a situation can be bought to the forefront and that too in a few words and in this case that is exactly what has happened and that too so eloquently and in such simple words.

The war cannot be won by shouting matches, but by slow, continuous process of indoctrination where survival is key because it allows another day to spread the message.
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Post by indygill »

Now check this out ... what could be more insulting to Hindu sentiments ??

we have enemies within us ..... Sankracharyas!! Individuals who should be coming out for the "protection", "respect", "Wellfare", "Salvation" and "Progress" of Hindus are themselves anti-hindus!!!!

It simply shows that Hindus are in "deep sh$t"........ How many fronts can a "hindu" fight for "self-respect" and "dignity"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We had Islamists, Commies, leftists and Pse-seculars and now these Shankracharyas..................who exactly are these self-apponited individuals?????? They should be all abolished.... they have miserably failed in their role of "protecting" the "dharma".. As such people are not needed!!!!

First and foremost action should be taken against these individuals they should be tried for "Treason", "death" and "destruction" of Hindus through out time and should be punished severly........... So that no one in "Dharmic Authority" ever in future "dare" to sell their "dharma" and cause death and destruction of "Hindus".

We should not ignore these weseals from the eqauation because they are basically "SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY" and are the most "dangerous". Inshort they are the gun in enemies hands pinting towards Hindus.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/071207/139/6o6h8.html


Puri Shankaracharya calls on Gujaratis' to remove Modi

A concerted campaign must be launched across Gujarat to unseat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, said the Shankaracharya of Puri on Friday.

Appealing to all secular parties to bury their differences, Swami Adhokshanand Dev Teerth said in a statement that the BJP Government in Gujarat had hurt the cause of communal harmony and brought shame to the Hindu community.

----------------------

http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate ... 20311c.htm

Arrest Modi, Ban RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal, demands Shankaracharya Swami Aadhyog Shajananda Dev
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Post by shiv »

Well look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7132124.stm
A judge in India has summoned two Hindu gods, Ram and Hanuman, to help resolve a property dispute

"You failed to appear in court despite notices sent by a peon and later through registered post. You are herby directed to appear before the court personally", Judge Singh's notice said.
The two Hindu gods have been summoned as the defence claimed that they were owners of the disputed land.
"Since the land has been donated to the gods, it is necessary to make them a party to the case," local lawyer Bijan Rawani said.
Now imagine someone calling Mohammad to court because a man is murdered in the name of Mohammad?

Is India dhimmi?

Or is India dhimmi?
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Post by satyarthi »

indygill,

Are you sure this so called "shankaracharya" is the genuine one? Whos is SWAMI NISHCHALANANDA SARASWATI then?

There are many self-appointed shankaracharyas, some for personal profit and some for vested interests.

The anti-hindu propaganda workshop has many mansions under its shed.
Last edited by satyarthi on 07 Dec 2007 20:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by surinder »

Shiv,

Heartfelt post. While I grew up within a sea of Hinduism, I am not a Hindu. what confuses me to this day is the following questions: What exactly is it that the Hindus are so apologetic about? I can understand Germans & Japanese shame, but what is that the Hindus have done? I cannot understand the disdain that the West has for Hinduism either. Hindus have done them no harm. It has minded its business and stayed within its borders. It has taken no panga on its own with anything that West stands for. Other religions have loads and loads of dirty baggage, they seem to be even more confident. I was surprised when BRF had an a series of threads on the "Hindu Chip on the Shoulder" or was it "Hindu Greivances". The thread filled up faster than the US debt. I was shocked to see that the well-adjusted Hindus had so much griveances. In my own experiences, I would notice a remarkable difference in behaviour in personal beleifs and public expression of it in Hindus. Being an admirer and well-wisher of Hinduism, it is personally hurtful. I have come to realize that India cannot be strong unless Hindus are. A strong and confident Hinduism is essential for the well being and success of Sikhism. In the West, I notice with sadness Hindus being apologetic for something as minimal as being Vegetarian, or non eating Beef. They are apologizing and explaing for Hindu beleifs. If asked about Rama they would refer to Rama as "mythological character" who is "supposed" to be incarnation of God. What kind of nonsense is that. I told my Hindu friends, you should simply explain Rama as God. Period. I don't get it.

If you can explain me this I would be most thankful. I need to hear it from the horse's mouth. I have asked many Hindus, but have not gotten an answer really. I need to know the crux of the problem, details maybe I can glean myself.

Thanks.
Surinder

PS: I was reaing a book written by a British historian in around 1900. It is there on Google Books & I can post the link, if there is interest. He was writing about India in general. I shocked to see the venom, disdain & contempt he had for Hindus. But that is not all. When he wen to the subject of Muslims, he had glowing things to say abotu them and the simplicity of the faith. Then he noted ruefully that he so wished that more would join the civil service or other job but noted that Hindus were smarter and in open competition Muslims stood no chance. He noted also that ne can immediately tell that a village is Hindu or Muslims because the latter is dirty and unkempt while the former is rich and full of crops and is wealthy. The contradiction in his logic (cognitive dissonance) was amazing: He can see the relative failiure of Islam and the relative success of Hinduism, but still did not bother to change his biases. Well, anyways I decided to search for the book and give link in case someone is interested. You can download its pdf, by the way:
http://books.google.com/books?id=nRYPAA ... n+of+india
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Post by indygill »

Are you sure this so called "shankaracharya" is the genuine one?
If they are "self-appointed" and not real ones... isn't it an insult to us as Hindus. That the media keeps printing their "words".

At the same time where are the "real" ones should they not be coming out "countering" these "fake" ones??? Where does their "Responsiblity" lie? If they can't to their duty than they should "abolish" this "post" for ever..

A common Hindu would take their words as a call of "dharma"....Someone or some Hindu NGO should take them to court and shouldn't the "Election commision" be sending notices to these "individuals" also....

In short they should "Stopped"
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Post by satyarthi »

Indygill,

I can't answer for the media, but we should know better. The real shankaracharya of puri Govardhana-peetha is Sw. Nishchalannda saraswati. And his views are nothing like this fake shankaracharya, e.g:
http://www.odisha.in/news/158/ARTICLE/1 ... 09-22.html

also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govardhana_matha
[quote]The Govardhana maţha is located in the city of Puri in Orissa state (India), and is associated with the Jagannath temple. It is one of those four cardinal mathas said to have been founded by Adi Shankara, and is the eastern matha. As per the tradition initiated by Adi Shankara, it is in charge of the Rig Veda.

Its current head or Shankaracharya is NiÅ›calÄ
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Post by indygill »

Satyarthi

I understand what you are saying but my point is that the majority of the people do not know the facts. And damge is being done by confusing the Hindu populace more and more. And there seems to be no "check" on it.

How would everyone else know the truth? thats why i said the real ones also have a "responsibility" towards the Hindu populace and above all "dharma" and they should come out and "save" the dharma".
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Post by satyarthi »

indygill,

following the prevalent opinion here we could argue, plead and reason with the fake-shankaracharya or the dhimmedia. May be that would work.

This of course rests on an innocent presumption that such fakes and dhimmedia are merely ignorant and not actively motivated.

If someone is pretending to sleep, it is hard to wake them up by merely calling unto them. A kick works wonders.
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Post by indygill »

What exactly is it that the Hindus are so apologetic about?

notice with sadness Hindus being apologetic for something as minimal as being Vegetarian, or non eating Beef. They are apologizing and explaing for Hindu beliefs
I think the role of "brahmo samaj" in creating this Hindu Character should be looked into more deeply.

Apologetic Attitude was literally started by “Brahmo Samajâ€
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Post by ramana »

Very good observations Shiv about the plight of the modern Hindu who comes to face the invective of the non Hindus once he steps out of the Hindu fold or mileu. Most Hindu organizations are good at self goals and reinforce the 'bad' image. Instead of explaining why sati made its reappearance in certain regions and in certain times they go into offensive and state scriptural refs. This only reinfirces the 'bad' image. In the West except among the "New Age" minority the majority has been indoctrinated that Hindus are antediluvian and anachronistic. Every Hindu in the West faces the equivalent of have you stopped oppressing the daleets yet? And when are your women going to be freed? The US textbooks depict a very bad picture of ancient India implying that modern/contemporary India is also like that. This is the Macaulaytie attack outside India.

In the 19th century there were a slew of social reformers who made strides in getting rid on most of these practices and the culimination was the Hindu Marriage Act of 1954. But it also swoed the seeds of future problems.



Surinder, Hope the above provides partial answers to the question.

Indygill get of your high horse. Its already shown the guy is a fake Shankaracahrya. Besides how is he qualified to talk about politics?

You can call yourself shankaracharya of BR.
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Post by surinder »

indygill wrote:
What exactly is it that the Hindus are so apologetic about?
I think the role of "brahmo samaj" in creating this Hindu Character should be looked into more deeply.

Apologetic Attitude was literally started by “Brahmo Samajâ€
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Hindus have a higher sense of collective guilt than any other population groups. Anytime, a Hindu spits, immediately the hindus hang their heads in shame when among non-hindus, when mentioned. Never have seen any american hang his head in shame for abu-garib incident, rodney king etc.

Even when there is establishment screw-up, the tendency in the west is to pin the blame on a single individual. Things went wrong because of Hitler onlee. Bad policy of a administration is attributed to a person leading that administration or at most a group of individuals. Hindus on the other hand are exactly opposite, an individual fault is spread across as collective guilt.

Hindus, because of koopamandukaness, display naviette by showing sensitiveness to others concern, and in the process will indulge in self-flagellation. The naviette is displayed in the hope that if one self disarms and grovels, then the others will back off and overlook(hinduness) and accept him/her to their ranks. Self-delusion is a powerful weapon and is actively used by hindus.
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Post by ramana »

Three articles in Pioneer in light of Babri Masjid demolition


1)New Mantra
A new mantra

Lookback: Udayan Namboodiri

Fifteen years since the Babri demolition, Muslim identity politics is at loggerheads but not with Hindutva. The new challenge is posed by the rising phenomenon of 'inclusive' political formations headed by Muslim leaderships who are successfully tapping the groundswell of popular anger against globalisation and land grab

In the last Saturday Special, the focus on the 15th anniversary of the fall of the disputed structure in Ayodhya had been restricted, by a technical glitch, to the Hindu hindsight of that historic event. The space kept for the learned opinion of Irfan Ali Engineer, the Mumbai-based commentator, was accidentally grabbed by some old article on an unconnected issue that was awaiting erasure in our central computer system. This week, we have sought to make up for that lapse by representing two streams of opinion from within the Muslim community.

While Engineer (see The Other Voice) says that the fall of the Babri Masjid also signalled the beginning of the end for "identity politics" among Muslims, M Burhanudin Qasmi (Main Story), the high profile director of Markazul Ma'arif, Mumbai, argues that Muslim "identity politics" has in fact been reshaped by new issues over the past 15 years and is flowing in a generally salutary direction, thanks to the emergence of a new crop of leaders.

In fact, the rise of Maulana Mohammed Badruddin Ajmal, an unknown figure in even Assam politics before the founding of the Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF) in 2005, has been welcomed by large sections of the new generation of Indian Muslims that had tired of six decades of marginalisation. While secularists, Communists and other mainstreamers failed to give them socio-economic parity with Hindus, the Muslim communal parties pushed them deeper and deeper into ghettos.

The AUDF experiment is unique. The people who head it were astute enough to see that the only people who stood to gain from Muslim identity politics are Hindu communalists. The stronger the Muslim identity party, the bigger the crack in the anti-Hindutva vote and, ergo, dividends for the enemy. So, Maulana Ajmal devised a unique solidarity of Assam's rural poor -- Hindus and Muslims alike -- and mobilised them along economic lines. At the same time, it did not compromise its anti-IMDT position. It ended up winning 10 seats, two of its victorious candidates being Hindus.

Not since AK Fazlul Huq, the legendary Sher-e-Bangla of pre-partition Bengal, has any Muslim leader succeeded in mobilising rural masses with a message that is a mix of religion and economics. Fazlul Huq's popularity was based on his programme for economic justice for Bengal's chasha-bhusho-chotolok (translated loosely as farmer-subaltern) class, the very one shunned by the Congress. For this, his popularity in undivided Bengal had for a time equalled that of Subhas Chandra Bose. He was also the only Muslim leader to shun Mohammed Ali Jinnah's Pakistan movement.

In almost identical vein, Maulana Ajmal gave a thumbs-down to Syed Ahmed Bukari, the Shahi Imam of Delhi's Jama Masjid, who lost not time in seeking to bask in the AUDF's reflected glory, proclaiming that it was "time" for a "national front" of minority political groups based on the Assam model. But the AUDF has decided to consolidate its hold and maintain friendly distance from the likes of the Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen, arguably the most powerful Muslim political formation in India with one MP, five MLAs and more than 130 town councillors all over Andhra Pradesh. The two are actually as alike as chalk and cheese. This was amply manifested when the southern outfit sent its cadre to assault Taslima Nasreen, while simultaneously demanding level playing field for MF Husain. On the other hand, the AUDF, which is born of the Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind movement ( the Maulana doubles as its Assam State president) wants both to be brought to book for their bad art. At various types, the Majlis has been accused of clinging on to an outdated agenda preaching extra-national loyalties for Indian Muslims, but the only thing that the AUDF can be faulted for is opposing the IMDT Act. But, because it gets Hindus aboard, that could be glossed over, albeit temporarily.

India has the second-biggest Muslim population in the world. WC Smith, in his Islam in Modern History (New York, 1957), observed that Indian Muslims are unique because their political clout in national life is totally disproportionate to their huge size. For the past 60 years, the community has missed a leadership class that could fill the void left by the flight of talent which accompanied partition. Today, the biggest hurdle to political mobilisation is the lack of a pan-Indian Muslim middle class that thinks for the collective good of the community. That done, there is also the question of striking a balance between the Muslim identity with the regional one. How to make an Uttar Pradesh Muslim feel at one with his Maharashtrian counterpart?

Muslim formations that have seized upon the underbelly of India's economic growth story -- made up by rising poverty, land-grab in the name of industrialisation and marginalisation of backward communities -- are doing well. Till January 2007, nobody knew about Siddiqullah Choudhury of West Bengal. After Nandigram, he has become a mass leader, commanding a crowd of at least two lakh per public appearance. Yet, he did not have to reiterate his credibility by participating in the November 21 mayhem in Kolkata over Taslima Nasreen which, as it turned out, was a CPI(M)-sponsored event. The AUDF also plans its growth path along these lines. If these groups could get their act together, the national political picture could change substantially.

Year 2008 promises to be an exciting year for those following Muslim politics. The community has had enough of the Congress' airy-fairy promises and double dealing. The Communists have been exposed as the real enemy. Meanwhile, the BJP remains in cordon sanitaire. Ahead of 2009, we could expect to see the emergence of a variety of regional and inclusive political formations led by influential Muslims in select States, with whom the mainstreamers would have no choice but strike bargains. That could lead to a new definition for "secularism".
2)Doomsday for Muslim Identity politics
Doom for Muslim identity politics

The other voice: Irfan Ali Engineer

The demolition may have engendered a feeling of victimhood among Muslims and even pushed a minuscule section into the gleeful arms of the ISI. But, in hindsight, the fall of the Babri Masjid also rang the death knell for those who thrived on Muslim identity politics

On December 6, 2007 we looked back on the 15 years that have passed since the incident of the demolition of the Babri Masjid with a lot of mixed feelings. It was undoubtedly an attack on secularism and democracy. But, who can deny that a lot has changed since that infamous day for Muslim politics.

An unfortunate repercussion of the demolition and the communal riots that followed it is the increase in the influence of the ISI. Underworld don Dawood Ibrahim and gold smuggler Tiger Memon conspired with the ISI to carry out serial bombings in Mumbai on March 12, 1993. The Muslim youth, who were victims of communal riots that followed the demolition of the Babri Masjid, were successfully goaded into undertaking training in Pakistan to carry out the bombings in which over 287 people died. Anti-social elements among the Muslim community in south India were also attracted to religious fundamentalism after 1992 and a plethora of communal organisations like the Al-Umma sprang up there for the first time.

The RSS headquarters in Tamil Nadu was bomb to extract revenge for the demolition of the Babri Masjid. In 1998 there was communal violence in Coimbatore, something unprecedented in Tamil Nadu, in which 27 Muslims were killed when the police fired on an unarmed crowd that had collected to protest an attack by the Hindu Munani. The unilateral attack on Muslims was followed by bomb blasts in the same year in Coimbatore.

In Kerala, Maulana Madani started a militant organisation, the Islamic Service Society (ISS), to counter the RSS. The ISS attracted hundreds of youth in its fold. Madani was ultimately jailed and spent several years in prison for his role in the Coimbatore blasts, but was acquitted recently.

The list of ISI-backed terror incidents is long indeed. It cannot be denied that most of these bombing were motivated by the spirit Muslim victimhood for a series of wrongs committed on the community beginning from the demolition in 1992 to the Gujarat violence of 2002. The ISI capitalised on this victimhood and provided training, weapons and money to hoist up terrorist cells.

The most striking aspect about Muslim politics since 1992, however, is a positive one. The old, confrontationist strategy of the Babri Masjid Coordination Committee and the Babri Masjid Action Committee is now perceived as unworkable. The Muslim leadership that thrived on emotional and identity-related issues collapsed with the Babri Masjid. Today, the community is very cautious in responding emotive issues. There is a feeling within the community that education is the only salvation. Many organisations focussing on secular education have sprung up and their popularity is growing. This is a positive fallout of the Babri demolition.

Now, we are seeing Muslim girls topping the Secondary School Certificate examinations in Maharashtra. Recently, in Mumbai, two girl students defied the edict of few conservative elements to attend college and sought police protection for the purpose. So, the post-1992 period has seen increased awareness and an urge for secular education within the community.

Some Islamist organisations have begun to have a second thought on their ideology and are now working for communal harmony, secularism and justice for all. Jamaat-e-Islami is one such organisation to have reviewed its stand on the issue of an Islamic state. It has formed organisations to promote communal harmony. The organisations related with the Jamaat are working for peace and justice for all sections of society.

The backward classes among Muslims are now organising for extension of benefits of affirmative actions to the backward classes to them. In doing so, they emphasise their regional identity and seek to know what caste their pre-Islamic forefathers belonged to before converting. The Pasmanda Muslim Mahaz (Forum of Backward Muslims) is another such group, with branches in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. It is a welcome expansion of the Muslim identity, putting a much-need emphasis on pluralism within Islam.

The religious component makes up for only a small part of the overall Islamic identity, but is, nevertheless, important. The backward Muslims, by claiming their former caste identities, are today proud of not only being Muslims but also part of the local milieu. It acts as a bridge between an international religion like Islam and a regional culture. The backward sections among Muslims are quite at home with both aspects. It connects them to their Hindu brethren and builds harmonious relations with them.

Claiming backward Muslim identity, the backward communities among Muslims also engage with the state to be more democratic and extend affirmative action to them on the ground that they are backward classes and, therefore, should not be discriminated against in respect of quotas. The Andhra Pradesh Government has recently added some Muslim communities to the list of backward classes and has passed legislation to extend 4 per cent reservation to these groups.

The Sachar Committee Report has once again focussed the attention of the community to the issues of socio-economic backwardness and unity with the backward sections of society, irrespective of religion. It will be a formidable challenge for the secular-democratic leadership within the Muslim community to stay focussed on issues of social justice and equality in spite of all the discriminations, atrocities, human right violations that members of the community and Islam being targeted by the media and inimical forces.

-- The writer is Director, Center for Study of Society and Secularism, Mumbai
3) Time to reshape the matrix
Time to reshape the matrix

M Burhanuddin Qasmi

Muslims can retain their 'identity politics', yet challenge the mainstream by forging alliances with other groups in the post-Babri era

Fifteen years have passed since that afternoon of December 6, 1992. But Muslim politics at the national level has remained frozen in time. The vast majority of Muslims feel no link with the communal politics that is being practiced in their name. At the same time, new beginnings are being made at the State level.

Collectively speaking, the demolition of the Babri Masjid was a turning point in Hindu-Muslim relations in post-independent Indian history. It was a day when all talk about coexistence between Hindus and Muslims suddenly proved false. For, it was not only a Babri Masjid that was demolished in Ayodhya, but the symbolic inter-religious coexistence between Hindus and Muslims was also razed to dusts in India that day. It was just a visible beginning of a new communal history.

There were riots, Mumbai bomb blasts in 1992-93 and Gujarat carnage in 2002. Right-wing Hindutva forces tested India's secular, democratic muscle on December 6, 1992 and ended up drawing a positive result. They later campaigned for communal polarisation of votes on religious grounds, which catapulted them to power in 1998 from just two MPs in 1984.

The Babri Masjid incident shook, but failed to break the faith of Muslims in the democratic system of our country. They had chosen to stay back with their Hindu brethren after the partition of India. In the post-Partition period, the conditions of Indian Muslims are gradually going from bad to worse in all social, political, educational and economic spheres of life. Indian Muslims have today four principal problems: (a) Absence of true Muslim leadership; (b) Lack of self-security and proper justice to them. Riots, communal violence have become a sad reality of India's life and majority of the victims of riots in India are Muslims; (c) Lack of genuine financial recourses and law income; (d) Discriminatory attitudes of the majority community towards Muslims in all walks of life. These four problems are principally the real obstacles in all educational, economic and socio-political perspirations of the Muslim community in India.

The present Muslim leadership is either made up of puppets of the leading parties with no sense of the problems faced by the community, or, totally lacking in interest to take Muslim issues seriously for a variety of reasons. It is encouraging, of late, however, that some religious scholars (ulema) are gearing up to participate directly in the mainstream politics due to pressing social demands and continued injustice to the Muslim community.

Yet, 13 years after Babri, a new chapter was added to Indian politics. Fittingly, it happened on October 2, 2005, the anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi's birth. A religious scholar, Maulana Badruddin Ajmal al-Qasmi, floated a new political party, the Assam Untied Democratic Front (AUDF) with the support of as many as 20 religious and linguistic minority organisations.

Assam, a geographical hub of seven North-Eastern States of India, is heading to be a political test ground for both Muslims and alternative politics in India. The AUDF holds out a beacon of hope for the teeming millions of Muslims who have been ill-served by both the mainstream polity and the "identity" politicians. The Maulana has proved that it is possible for Muslim politicians to stand up for the rights of the community without bringing it in conflict with Hindus. He has successfully moulded Hindu and Muslim aspirations to form a common political plank, without any compromise of identity.

In the April-May 2005 Assembly election in Assam, a nascent AUDF won 10 seats, two of them with Hindu candidates, and equalled the performance of the BJP in the State. The party's future prospects seem bright. It is emerging as a front-runner in the upcoming rural elections scheduled for December 31-January 4.

The reason that compelled Maulana Badruddin Ajmal to form a new political party was a desire to break the 59-year-old stranglehold of the Congress on the Muslim vote-bank. In addition, there was mounting frustration in the community at the failure of the present lot of Muslim politicians in addressing the core issues of the community -- education, employment, security and proper justice. It was often seen after elections that these leaders converted themselves into 'extra-secular' politicians and began to act as if they were not voted by Muslims. They shun the label "Muslim representative" in Parliament and the various Assemblies.

The "identity politics" of Maulana Ajmal is different from that practiced by previous Muslim leaders. He is not interested in only the problems of the Muslims. The vast majority of Assam's Hindus are equally marginalised. He has made the AUDF the plank of all poor Assamese. In this way, he has ridiculed the so-called mainstream parties. Because of his stature of an Islamic man of letters, the Muslims of Assam, who account for about 32 per cent of the State's 26 million people, see him as their own leader. Hindus know about his great altruism. He heads numerous charities from which people of all communities draw equal benefit. Today, thanks to him, Muslims hold the key in at least 40 of the 126 Assembly constituencies.

How long will it be before the AUDF experiment is transplanted on the national scene? The present lot of Muslim leaders have failed the community. The Liberhan Commission, which was setup to look into the reasons and persons behind the demolition of the Babri Masjid, has yet to turn in its report. The original three-month term has been extended 42-times so far. One wonders whether it will ever be tabled in future.

The Srikrishna Commission report has mentioned the names of police officials and politicians who directly participated in the killing of Muslims and helped Shiv Sena activists in the 1992-93 Mumbai riots. It is an irony that despite having promised in the election manifestoes, neither the Congress nor the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) shows any real keenness to implement the report; Instead, those criminal officials were promoted by the Congress-led Government in Maharashtra.

Muslims in India remember December 6 as a black day. While the wounds were fresh, Indian Muslims observed the day each year remembering the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the ensuing violence. But the passage of time seems to turn December 6 into another forgotten day in history.


-- The writer is Director, Markazul Ma'arif, Mumbai
Some things to be hopeful off. Some things to be worried about.

The last article is worrisome.
JwalaMukhi
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Extrapolating on my earlier post, as an example the fault lies with the individual padre (for all the abuses), even when there is enuf cheese to know that it is a systemic failure. Message: The system is robust, it is only there are some miswired individuals.
On the other hand, a fake sankaracharya or agnivesh does some thing wrong, immediately the fault is due to hinduism, and look for non existent texts which promote stupid ideas and pin it on the system. Basic message, hindus are good as individuals, it is the philosophy which is regressive, hence need to cast that philosophy and chose a newer ideology.
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Post by GuruNandan »

Friends,

I just joined the post. Have been an avid watcher/follower of many topics on your forum. I look forward to being a part of it and contribute constructively.

Having said that, i would like to make my posting debut by responding to the issue raised by Surinder about Hindus being apologetic. I have seen that in myself and can empathize with all others who always are in the defensive when serious topics such as secularism, caste system, untouchability, etc. are discussed and Hindus are beaten with these sticks.

IMHO, the problem is ignorance. Ignorance about oneself, ignorance about one's roots, one's culture. Ignorance is the original sin. And Hindus have this habit of processing themselves through the eyes of others. I think that that is the effect of centuries of colonization. Instead of looking at ourselves through the eyes of others - Christians, Muslims, Communists, Secularists, Self-righteous Westerners, we should learn to look at ourselves and the others from our eyes, from our standpoint. That is the way we Hindus can enlighten ourselves about ourselves and when we do that, the others will beat a hasty retreat.

I must say i have learned more about Hinduism after coming to this foreign land, than when i was in India. In my quest, i found the literature of many people useful. But the foremost ones in my mind are Shri Ram Swarup and Shri Sita Ram Goel. It is after reading their works that i am convinced that Christianity and Islam are not religions, but totalitarian and imperialistic creeds like Communism, Fascism. The gentleman don't get the credit they deserve, but IMO, their intellectual contribution to Hindu revival is immense and it will be realized as time goes by. They were way ahead of their times.

I agree with Shiv about the RSS. I am a SS and have come to see that the problem with the RSS is the lack of intellectual acumen and diffidence and that is why they get beaten up by the media, the secular/muslim/christian/progressive/jnu/media crowd. They are always spending their energies trying to prove to the world that they are the true secularists and that the people who claim to be secularists are pseudo-secularists. They would do well to look at the meaning, the history, and the origins of the idea of secularism and take it and throw it out of their systems. There is no equivalent word for secularism is Sanskrit and the term 'Sarva Dharma SamaBhaava' is the concoction of Gandhiji.

A word on the why Westerners, Arab, muslims look down upon India. The Westerners look down upon us due to the same reason that we look down upon ourselves, ignorance. When Westerners do know something about us, they either love us or hate us. I think the westerners that hate us do so, because they feel inferior to us because we are such an ancient people and have seen our heights before the western, middle eastern civilization came into being and have survived many tumultuous periods of history. Those of them that love India (Francois Gautier, Koenraad Elst) do so because of what India is and stands for. And that is why the muslims hate Hindus because Hindus survived the islamic onslaught where other civilizations and peoples could not. One needs to look at the words of Altaf Hussain Hali and Allama Iqbal to realize that.

Please excuse my long post.

Regards,
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Post by vsudhir »

x-post from psyops thread.
Tamang wrote:Buddha Babu - Lord Ram fictional

Kolkata: On the backfoot over Nandigram, West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee has stoked another controversy by questioning the existence of Lord Ram.

"Ram was born in the imagination of poets and Ram Sethu is a natural formation under the sea," Bhatacharjee told a meeting to mark the 15th anniversary of the demolition of Babri Masjid on Thursday.

He said the Sethusamudram project was being opposed by the Sangh Parivar on religious grounds, but it was vital for economic development of the region.
Buddhasur has started a fresh controversy. Calculated move. DMK's MK has already shown that there's no price to pay for insulting yindoo sentiments. Perhaps BB calculates he too wont lose any votes by his move.

Time nationalists in WB turned his remark as one questioning not just Ram but yindoo Gods in general and then turn that quielty into questioning the existence of Durga mata during the Puja hols.....

That if nothing might have some effect, no?
Talking of own goals, this is a classic psec own-goal. BB calculates muzlim votes coming into his pocket... heh heh.... becomes harder for dhimmedia and psecs to ignore obvious 'what if' questions that arise - like what if PBUH were similarly ridiculed etc. They have simply no answer. Their approach is unravelling and forcing ordinary yindoos who might ordinarily have gone abt their lives without noticing, to take notice and choose sides. The dhimmified ones already vote for CPM. What abt the independents and the hitherto-indifferent?? Don't see how one sided yindoo baiting this egregious wont rebound on the psecs.

JMTs etc.
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Post by krithivas »

GuruNandan wrote:....It is after reading their works that i am convinced that Christianity and Islam are not religions, but totalitarian and imperialistic creeds like Communism, Fascism.....
I've thought about this myself, and am very glad to see that there are others who think the same way too. The systems of Christianity, Islam, Communism, Fascism, are mutually exclusive totalitarian regimes. They want it and own it all (Power, Wealth, Mind, Soul etc).

In the early 90's Soc.Culture.Indian days, there were numerous opinions as to how Buddhism was "forcefully eradicated" supposedly by Hindus (and Adi Sankaracharya especially). And how Dravidians were supposedly marginalized by Hindus/Aryans, and pushed down to the lower rungs using the Manu Smriti as a weapon. etc.

It was my opinion at that time, and still is, As far as history of India is written/interpreted/extempored by idealogue of any of the four systems mentioned above, India will be perceived through the prism of their collective propensity (what would they have done under similar circumstances). Indian history as taught is the recordings of the Macaulytes and Communists. Their civilization and history has been nothing but blood, gory, conquests, Jihads, inquisitions, back-stabbing, sabotage, incest, rape etc. Until Industrial revolution (which was a product of purging the influence of the Church) ... West was nothing.

We learnt history through the interpretations of a Macaulytes and Communists. These vermins have passed on their Shame and Guilt to Indians (completely passing over the greatness of the Indic civilization), and that is what we are attempting to shake off today.

R. Krithivas
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Post by ramana »

Folks the contributions to this thread should be strictly limited to the thread topic. India Forum has extensive thread to disuss other issues. So please understand and not let this thread derail.

The above posts can stay. No more additional posts.

Thanks.
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Post by Ananth »

That Maulana Badruddin Ajmal, is neither Maulana nor Assamese. He is a perfume baron-converted-maulana-converted politico. Just after election he tried to portray himself as king maker. Let us see how much traction can he get in next elections.
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Post by Rye »

A pan-islamist thug from the Islamic Emirate of the UK is stirring the pot about Ayodhya. Note the casual way in which this muslim spits on hindu religious sensibilities, while couching it in aceeptable rhetoric -- if there one thing the hindu hawks can learn from the islamists -- it is the art of double-speak, rhetoric, and hypocrisy.

All the "satyameva jayate" stuff is all well and good for analyzing information, but it needs to be thrown out the window when dealing with murderous islamist thugs and the "moderate" muslim cohorts who have no reason to interact in a honest and truthful manner, and spend all their time covering up all the evil in their ideology.

Note how the muslims have razed over the religious holy places of all other religions, and now pretend that they have first dibs on building their monument...be it Ayodhya, Dwaraka, Jerusalem or Kosovo -- they must be disabused of the notion that their religion will be rewarded for destroying the holy places of other religions.

Islam is not a special religion and muslims are not special people -- they cannot expect any special privileges for just being muslims, and if they rot in their mental and physical ghettos, it is entirely the fault of their obscurantist, medieval leadership. No hindu needs to feel guilty for that, much as the Manmohan Singhs and Sonia Gandhis of the world would like them to.


link
London, December 7: The Council of Indian Muslims (CIM) in UK on Friday asked the Indian government to hand over Babri mosque site to Muslims and allow them to rebuild the mosque there.

"Babri Mosque demolition and Gujarat massacre have left deep scars on Muslim psyche and unfortunately no concrete step has been taken by the Indian Government to cure this pain," the CIM Chairman Mohammad Munaf Zeena said in a statement.

Marking the 16th anniversary of demolition of Babri Masjid Mosque, Zeena said, "One finds it extremely frustrating that those, who pulled down the mosque in full media glare, incited attacks on Muslims and rejoiced on those atrocities are roaming free.

Babri Mosque was demolished on 6th December 1992 by Hindu extremists who claim that it stood on the site of the birth place of Lord Rama. Hindu-Muslim riots that followed killed some 2,000 people across India, most of them Muslims. (Figures are exagerrated, as are muslim deaths and the hindu deaths are underplayed...standard tactic)

"But no compassion has been shown in punishing the Muslims for their alleged involvement in the 1992 riots in Mumbai despite the fact that in its report Justice Sri Krishna commission had clearly identified the perpetrators of these riots and CBI had charge sheeted the inciters of the demolition of Babri Mosque."

"Such discriminatory policies create negative psyche that is detrimental to the development of any society," he said.
So if people dump on islamists for being backward and violent oiseaules, then it "creates a negative psyche detrimental to development of muslims"....which can only result in more terrorist attacks because the "root causes of muslim terror" are not being addressed. How convenient.

During the same perion, Afzal Guru has been kept alive even though he committed a terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament, but this jihadi **** in the UK sees no need to mention that becauase that would go against the rest of his islamist propaganda.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Rye wrote: All the "satyameva jayate" stuff is all well and good for analyzing information, but it needs to be thrown out the window when dealing with murderous islamist thugs and the "moderate" muslim cohorts who have no reason to interact in a honest and truthful manner, and spend all their time covering up all the evil in their ideology.
Unfortunately, a stupid, obstinate and damaging ideology as islamism was never subdued or defeated through reason. Example of Spain, point that equally obstinate and damaging brute force method worked. Are there other alternatives to roll back islamism?
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Post by ramana »

Sanku, You asked a pertinent question. Why do Sagarika Ghose and her ilk support the extremist actions of the IM. They rush to assuage any IM's percieved greivance.

What do people think are the reasons?
1) Dhimmitude
2) Score points against former dhimmis
3) Playing to international gallery where they would be lauded for their Well off Modern credentials
4) Use the support to IMs as a way to pressure the former dhimmis to become like themselves ie Modern instead of just contemporary.

I believe the last is a factor. I dont know how much but it is used as a pressure point to change Hindu social outlook. What if Hindus themsleves are at the forefront of the reforming themselves and claim the right to debate? Foucalt's dictum. Of all the powers, the power to discourse is the most valuable.

All along Macaulayization and previous avatars during and before Islam showed up were used as sticks to reform Hindu society. Mind you not Hinduism. The dhimmification and before the Buddhification and Jainist movements were part of this process. Even the EJs get their space due to this slow pace of Sanskritization.

Wont that leave the dhimmis without a cause?
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Post by Rudradev »

vsudhir wrote:x-post from psyops thread.

Talking of own goals, this is a classic psec own-goal. BB calculates muzlim votes coming into his pocket... heh heh.... becomes harder for dhimmedia and psecs to ignore obvious 'what if' questions that arise - like what if PBUH were similarly ridiculed etc. They have simply no answer. Their approach is unravelling and forcing ordinary yindoos who might ordinarily have gone abt their lives without noticing, to take notice and choose sides. The dhimmified ones already vote for CPM. What abt the independents and the hitherto-indifferent?? Don't see how one sided yindoo baiting this egregious wont rebound on the psecs.

JMTs etc.
VS, given what follows from the discussion that Shiv et al have been leading on this thread so far, it seems that India's "laws of social physics" as it were are entirely different than what we Former Dhimmis imagine them to be. And it is our failure to grasp the nature of those laws, that has handicapped us with respect to the Dhimmi Hindus and of course, the Islamists.

Buddhadeb makes an egregious statement like this, because he has a better understanding of the "laws of social physics" and so he KNOWS fully well that he has nothing to lose.

To you and me it seems (seemed?) as natural as "what goes up must come down", that such a statement should incur the righteous, wrathful rage of Hindus. In the case of Former Dhimmi Hindus, it does indeed stir up the emotional ingredients of such a response.

However, experience tells us that these enraged Former Dhimmi Hindus will ultimately not be able to respond in a way that advances their own interest, or harms Buddhadeb's interest in any way.

They, the Former Dhimmi Hindus, will respond to Buddhadeb's "own goal" with an "own goal" of their own. They will react by volubly cussing out the "pseudosecularists" and making absurd spectacles of themselves and calling bandhs and maybe causing a minor civil disturbance here and there. This, as always, will alienate the majority of Dhimmi/Undecided Hindus for all the reasons Shiv has described:

PSecs: "Arre why are they making such a fuss. See they will take any small thing and make it such a huge issue. And murderous fascists like Modi will take advantage, using political violence for electoral gain, and threaten the beautiful secular fabric of my nation. No no, Buddhadeb may have been insensitive but these Hindutvavadis are WORSE".

Dhimmis: "See these buffoons, making such a fuss about this Ram nonsense. Ram and Rahim are the same after all no? Why do they want to make trouble unnecessarily? They just want to use this issue to fire up that Ram Janmabhoomi thing, and that makes my blood boil because how can you insult Muslims like that. Muslims are crazy! If you mess with them they will just cut you up! etc."

Macaulayites: "Dear me, these chappies. Why must they be so god-awful literalist all the time? Almost makes me ashamed to belong to the same religious group... all their superstitious nonsense."

End result, everyone has forgotten about Buddhadeb. Dhimmis have come out openly against Former Dhimmis. Per Shiv's calculus, Former Dhimmis score -10. Islamists don't directly score any points this time around, but the next time they do a father-in-law rapes daughter-in-law, the locus standi of Former Dhimmis to oppose them has been eroded by 10 points because the Former Dhimmis have made themselves look like atavistic, obscurantist, fundamentalist, superstitious a**holes on the Buddhadeb issue.

So what goes up, unfortunately, will not come down. There will be no negative consequence to Buddhadeb or any other Hindu-baiting politician, no matter how egregious. Which will only add to the sense of injustice among the Former Dhimmis... which will only exacerbate their predictably reactive, raging response to an even greater degree... which will decimate their degree of influence on the general Hindu body politic even further.

First things first... this spiral must be halted, and a new way found.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rudradev wrote:First things first... this spiral must be halted, and a new way found.
Indeed, and I would like to wager that the leaderhship of the mass political organizations of the RSS/BJP, know these issues. They have chosen to make their opposition to Islamism so mild, that to call them right wing hindu organizations, is laughable.

While it is fashionable to talk about the RSS/BJP, as lacking finesse and unable to respond to the "sophisticated" methods of the macuylite elites. Is it possible that they already know these issues and are trying to overcome them?

I am inclined to think so. The chosen methods to overcome this lack of sophistication, are primarily political.

At a certain level, they feel helpless, and over whelmed by the level of indoctrination of the elite. Where the entire state apparatus, the global elite and its forces, the education system, the media, the lack of allies, who share the hindutva world views, are largely missing. The opponents reinforce each other, leading to a more and more entrenched opposition.

Off and on, a Babri or Godhra, raises a level of ground swell support for Hindutva but the challenge of the entrenched opposition is permanently working against them.

In the electoral political system, where upto 30% of the seats are determined by the minority vote, where regional and caste difference still reign supreme and the ideological opposition, who got a head start post independence, well entrenched, what is the way out for these hindutva organizations - apart from trying to gain political power to change all these entrenched equations, in essence use the same tools that Nehru/INC used but to a different purpose.

It better be some way out for these organization only, for no other mass hindutva political organizations exist. Ideas?
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Post by Rye »

Rudradev wrote:
First things first... this spiral must be halted, and a new way found.
Hi Rudradev,

To be more specific, the spiral must be halted purely by changing the behaviour of ex-dhimmis, since the dhimmis have no need to modify their behaviour -- they are already in the good books of the islamists and the powerful pro-islamist dhimmis. The dhimmis do not gain by siding with the ex-dhimmis, because that group is basically politically impotent.

Dhimmis are conditioned by an involuntary fear of offending muslims but have no fear of offending hindus -- but hindus cannot go on the offensive against the dhimmis....so the only option is the one Shiv mentioned earlier which is to slowly find common ground with these dhimmis on a issue-by-issue basis till there is traction.


JMTs
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Post by GuruNandan »

JwalaMukhi wrote

..Example of Spain, point that equally obstinate and damaging brute force method worked. Are there other alternatives to roll back islamism?...

I think the problem should be dealt with both Militarily and intellectually. Hindus did give a tough fight militarily to Islam because of which we were able to survive the onslaught for about 1000 years. Where we failed is intellectually. That is, as a group, we failed to see Islam as a imperial creed and accorded it the status of a religion. We need to confront it at the intellectual level also. That would make thinking people to apostate from Islam causing the citadel of Islam to crumble. It is already happening and you have a number of apostates like Ali Sina, Wafa Sultan, the late Anwar Sheikh, Ayaan Hirsi Ali showing the way.

Posting Wafa Sultan's video..

http://jchannel.blogspot.com/2007/12/wa ... oblem.html
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Post by Prem »

Center Will Hold

There is no worldly problem which cannot be solved with Power and Wealth. As of now Hindus lack both political power and wealth. They need to accumulate both ASAP and apply these to solve old problems. Non Dharmic forces have rich and powerful backers, Dharma needs patrons to survive the onslaught. A humble reminder that even Swami Vivekandanda charged for lectures so he can spend money on needy people back home. Political Centre and Economic muscle should be the War Cry for next few years .
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Post by shiv »

surinder wrote: What exactly is it that the Hindus are so apologetic about?
Surinder, I do not want to derail the focus of this thread and I will not do that. But I believe that your question deserves and answer because that answer could explain all Hindu behavior and their manner of dealing with fundamentalist Islam or any other form of coercion. Not just the behavior of psecs, not just the behavior of dhimmis, notnot just Macaulatites, or any combination of these three.

Long ago I had tried to explain how a Muslim might see the world based on his earliest experiences at home, and the word and deeds he would have been exposed to in that early environment from birth to about age 5 (schoolgoing age).

To a predominantly Hindu crowd, it is inherentlyeasier to explain and get them to relate to those important first five years when certain baselines are drawn in the mind.

To me (as to any child in a Hindu family I expect) some of the happiest and cosiest memories are obviously the security and fun with mother, father and other relatives. Inextricably intertwined with these memories is the language , for me, my mother tongue, Kannada and the sounds and the music that was heard. The strongest positive memories revolved around festivals, which meant light, food, gifts, fun, clothes and the presence of fun people who were normally absent - such as dad (who would have a Holiday). Diwali, Ganesh Chaturthi and Dasara were the most fun for me in that order and because I spent some of those pre-school years Gujarat happy memories include Garba.

When a child enters school, these things are part of his life. In the late 50s and early 60s when I entered school I was immediately exposed to conflicting information from every front.

In the first place, my entire identity, my background had to be left at home. Idols, stone or metal images, likenesses or statues of God were bad. Baaaaad. Idol worship was a bad word. I couldn't understand it. I was not worshipping any idols.I was just being myslef. having fun. And what was all this about "Gods"? There is only one God. Whatever that God's name might have been it certainly wasn't Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, or anything remotely recognizable to my six or seven year old brain.

After these basic Laxman rekhas had been drawn, the next decade served to reinforce everything in a manner that is true even today. You read any literature at a global level. History written anywhere completely leaves out Indian history except Mohenjo daro, the Mughals and British raj. And for students in India today, (in 2007) History ended in 1947.

The net effect of this is that you can be a good student. You can rise to compete at an international or global level, but your Hindu background is a complete zero for you. Whatever anyone knows about Hindus is negative and conflicts with what you know, and anything you try to say that is different from what is known and accepted about Hindus is ridiculed.

What most Hindus who do not understand how the world sees Hindus do not understand can be described in an analogy.

Hindus imagine the world to be a race in which they are at the starting line and see others people of other cultures and religions next to them on the same starting line. The Hindu thinks - "Ah. This is a 100 meter race, and I can do well. Everyone and everything informs him that it is a 100 meter race. "All are equal" But when the race actually takes place, the Hindu gradually realises that he has to run much farther than many others to get to the finish line. He has to dismiss and put away parts of his childhood and his identity, figure out the identity of those he is running with, and then beat them at their race.

A lot of Hindus get to the starting line and do not even understand how the dice is loaded against anyone who displays more than a basic minimum of Hindu traits and behavior. And as the Hindu learns, he learns to put more and more of his identity behind him and adopt a new identity in which agreeing with his competitors, cursing what everyone curses about Hindus gets him more points than any other behavior.

History has loaded the dice in such a manner that even within India, showing Hindu behavior and Hindu thought in anything other than private life can earn you negative points.

Even today you never find erudite Hindus saying out loud "Wtf? I love idol worship and get great comfort from that and balls to anyone who says anything different" And you never find anyone saying, "Balls. I have ten million Gods and I love them all". The Hindu is apologetic about everything that goes against the tenets of either Islam or Christianity.

But, as I said in another thread, Hindus in India now openly show their Hinduness - an act that one forum member felt happy about. But the admission and comfort of being openly Hindu still remains in the domain of private life in India. It does not extended to public life.

In Indian public life Indians in India, have to be careful never to tread on the toes of Islam or Chrstianity. If they do that they are instantly assaulted by accusations of savagery, Nazism, bigotry, casteism, But it is quite OK to spit on Hindu sentiment.

So we have a curious combination of Hindu tradition and worship being considered weird and wrong at a world level, and at a national level, those Hindu habits and customs are accepted, but Hindu religious icons can be trashed without causing an uproar, unlike the hue and cry created by the slightest infringement upon "minority" religions. (this can be gamed, and I will do that in a separate post)

Cursing minority religions is not necessarily the answer. Those faiths have encoded memes for their own robust defence within their religious doctrines.
Not use cursing apologetic Hindus either. They need to be made to understand the silly double standard they are following and understand the history behind the double standard so they can be comfortable with their past.

Let me use Murugan's words in exactly the opposite direction than he used them. Murugan said "The constantly showing of the Hindu in poor light, terming them losers, calling them buffoons and cowards will not recruit soldiers with Winning spirit in Kailashpati’s army. Nobody wd like to join you if you constantly show them in poor light and you yourself is learning and had very limited exposure of the society and country and her history. "

My reply is that it is not Macaulayite Hindus who show Hindus in a bad light. It is the dice that is loaded from childhood against being Hindu that makes them modify their behavior to be that way. Treat them with sympathy and let the speak of what they know of the outside world. The Hinduism you speak of is unknown and derided in the outside world. Joining this world has so far meant negating and denying that Hinduism. If Hindus have any work to do, it is to change perceptions of their own beliefs at a world level, rather than being koopamanduka "frogs in a well" and restricting your horizon to macaulayite Hindus alone.

Fighting extremism anywhere first needs removal of blindfolds.
shiv
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Post by shiv »

shiv wrote: So we have a curious combination of Hindu tradition and worship being considered weird and wrong at a world level, and at a national level, those Hindu habits and customs are accepted, but Hindu religious icons can be trashed without causing an uproar, unlike the hue and cry created by the slightest infringement upon "minority" religions. (this can be gamed, and I will do that in a separate post)
Hindu game

This game can be played in India, in the west or in an Islamic country

Scoring is based on attitudes to various cultures and religions.

In the west:
Rejecting Indian culture/religion and accepting Wetern culture gets 10 points
Rejecting Western or holding on to Indian culture gets you 0 points
Cursing Indian culture or religion or cursing Western culture or religion gets you 0 points.
Cursing islam gets you -10

In India:
Rejecting Indian culture/religion and accepting western culture gets 0 points
Rejecting Western culture or holding on to Indian culture gets you 0 points
Cursing Indian culture gets you 0 points.
Cursing Islam or Christianity gets you -10

In an Islamic country:
Rejecting Indian culture/religion gets 0 points
Rejecting Western culture or holding on to Indian culture gets you 0 points
Cursing Indian culture gets you 0 points.
Cursing Islam gets you -10


What this means is that if you keep Indian culture in India or the West or in an islamic country, you get no points.

Rejection of Indian culture wil get you maximum points in the west

Cursing islam will get you ths most negative points anywhere in the world

Cursing Islam or Christianity will both get you negative points in India.

No matter how many times you play this game, the ONLY way in which a Hindu can score points anywhere in the world is to reject Hindu culture and accept Western culture.

If a Hindu chooses to follow his own culture and not curse any other religion, he gets 0 points anywhere in the world.

If he behaves negatively towards Hinduism a Hindu can still score points in the West and in an Islamic nation (by converting)

If a Hindu curses islam or christianity, he gets the most negative points. He can make some positive points by living in the west and accepting Western culture. (Conversion kills the game because he stops being Hindu.)

But the Hindu who lives in India, behaves like a Hindu, and curses Islam and or Chrisianity scores the maximum number of negative points.

Somebody please educate me if this model does not EXACTLY explain the world as experienced by a Hindu?

Guess why the BJP, RSS, VHP, Bajrang dal are all considered on par as Hindu extremists? Guess why I (on some fora) and many people on this forum get branded as Hindu extremists?

When you start a 100 meter race as a Hindu in In India, you automatically start 20 meters behind. You only think you are at the same starting line. The mistake that most Hindus -including people from the BJP and RSS is that they imagine that they have the same starting line (or an advantage) in India. They don't and there is bugger all they can do about it by shouting, wailing or lamenting .
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Post by Murugan »

Shiv Wrote:
Muruganji - you need to be patient with me. My style of writing is deliberate and most words are selected with care to be seen in public.

I speak harsh words when I feel something deeply, and your impassioned defence of Hindus makes me only feel sorry, nothing else. But remember that I may have something that you may not immediately notice in mind when I say something.


:wink:
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Post by Murugan »

In the old thread you innocently used a phrase. You spoke of "RSS ideology". Just do a Google for RSS ideology and see how many links point to the ideology that you may want to talk about and how many point to the RSS as a fundamentalist terrorist organization. The RSS is smaller than Hindus and Hinduism. When all Hindus were consdered freaks, the RSS is only a small subset of those freaks.
Why?

I may similarly ask you to attend shakhas for 3 years and see the difference yourself.

For a change become a pracharak!
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Post by Murugan »

When all Hindus were consdered freaks, the RSS is only a small subset of those freaks.
Ok Ok.
These freaks are ruling 6-7 states and are doine well.

The same freaks ruled india for 6-7 years and contributed in many spheres.

***

All said and done, Shivji, as your humble 'fan' :lol: , i was contributing my 2 drachmas in consolidating the sentiments and energy to remove that cancerous part called 'jihad' from india.

Positive strokes will only work. Your constructive anger, as i felt and seen, becomes destructive - living upto your name 'shiv'.

Me reiterate I am not any RSS chamcha nor a pracharak (i wd have been a CM of a state otherwise) but We need to harp on the better things available move ahead to achieve a common goal.

What i felt is that we are endlessly crying about dhimmi and all, others like RSS have tried to something - they might have failed, might have won elections, they might be freaks but they did something - at least they tried to do something instead of mere saliva spray.

Positive strokes will only achieve something. IMVHO.
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