Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 2

asprinzl
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Postby asprinzl » 22 Dec 2007 02:43

SonarDeshi wrote:
If you deny that there is religion in Hinduism, you are in effect discharging the electrode by grounding it, so that the gold leaves fall back and do namaste even when the charged rod of Islam/Christianity is nearby.


Hinduism is an assimilative philosophy and survived the tide of time because it is a philosophy and not a religion.

Effectively,there are no defined gods,no angels and no clerics.It is a personalized way of worship where just you and your beliefs exist.

For this reason; Hinduism is not organized,regulated by clergy and doesn't have a conversion ceremony.
Conversion is by virtue of birth.

Islam can survive peacefully,only if its doors are as open as others.
The doors are currently manned by politically minded clerics,with little interest in their religious or academic duties.

PS: Extremists and fundamentalists regardless of their "religion" want to turn back the clock to 12th century.
Why?
It was the Age of the Crusades,where fleeing Arabs re-established their base by annexing sub-continental territory and undertook massive forced conversion.


Hare Bhai, if you look at it carefully, you will realize that all religions are basically philosophies on how to live. Some more self-righreous and others and some more belligerant than others.

As for Hindus, they have to beware of both soft Islam and hawkish Islam at the sametime.

Look at Israel's dilema. Right now Israel is officially at peace with both Jordan and Egypt. However, there are some behaviours of these governments especially that of Egypt that is harmful to Israel such as the secret Egyptian help to Hamas in smuggling arms into Gaza. Because Israel has a peace agreement with Egypt, Israel is handicapped in her responses. Our leaders don't even want to pursue the case in the USA because they are worried about angering Egypt. In this case Egypt is not a peace partner but a "soft" enemy of Israel.
If peace takes place with Syria, similar situation will dawn on us. Same with other Arab/Islamic states. Soon, they will all suffocate Israel with their bear hugs and Israel will be stuck without any recourse to counter. That is the danger of making peace. All hardcore enemies would become "soft" enemies via peace treaty. Hudna and Takiyah will be on the roll.
For Hindus (hawks, doves and chicken alike), beware of making peace. If you make peace you lose. You have to be on the offensive. Unlike Israel, time and numbers are on your side.
Avram

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Postby SriKumar » 22 Dec 2007 03:33

JCage wrote:
For this reason; Hinduism is not organized,regulated by clergy and doesn't have a conversion ceremony.
Conversion is by virtue of birth.

And how do you think Hinduism originally spread? People did convert.
I have to agree with the above. Indonesia was Hindu in the past. The only way for the first Indonesians to become Hindu would have been to convert. Same for Cambodia/Thailand. I too used to think that one could only be Hindu by birth, but the case of SE Asia negates that notion. (This is OT, so please to eks-coose me).

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Postby shiv » 22 Dec 2007 05:28

SonarDeshi wrote:
Hinduism is an assimilative philosophy and survived the tide of time because it is a philosophy and not a religion.

Effectively,there are no defined gods,no angels and no clerics.It is a personalized way of worship where just you and your beliefs exist.

For this reason; Hinduism is not organized,regulated by clergy and doesn't have a conversion ceremony.
Conversion is by virtue of birth..


The Hindu religion's big weakness wrt to islam is that thoughts such as yours are allowed to be expressed freely without threatening or actually chopping your head off.

Its weakness and its strength are free thought and non restriction to any specific ideology. Even your statement restricts it, and you have no business denying religion to those Hindus who feel they have a religion. Yours is one view - and a view that is still being exploited.

OT for here but I suspect that by the time Islam got invented human society had reached a stage when it could be understood that not only was dogma necessary for control, but a robust means of enforcing that dogma ruthlessly.

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Postby shiv » 22 Dec 2007 05:46

Cross post
indygill wrote:http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=11&id=529098

ISI, al-Qaeda thretens to blow up BJP, AASU offices

The hand-written letter, in immigrant Bangladeshi style Assamese dated December 11 on plain paper and received by post yesterday, alleged that the BJP under Kalita's leadership was "resorting to mental and physical torture of local Muslims.

"Your offer to (Bangladeshi writer) Taslima Nasreen to stay in Assam Is against Islam and its tenets. If you don't stop your activities immediately a powerful bomb will be exploded in your main office," cautioned the letter made available to the media today.


Typical love and peace message

"If you don't do what we want we will blow you up. We will kill you"

This is the Islam that I have come to realise is normal, and not "extremist".

This is decidedly not religious behavior that evolved in the all accepting, all welcoming Indian subcontinent and the sooner it is crushed the better it will be for us.

However it will probably take some hawk-elimination before that happens. Blood will have to be shed unless Indian Muslims themselves can understand and spread the message about what a good thing they have going for them in India, and what a great lineage they have branched off from compared to the usual islamic shit holes of the world.

You have a non Muslim country (India) that behaves like an islamic country, allows Muslims personal laws, allows Muslims to live freely in a wholly Islamic way or in a wholly kafir way as they please and how much more do these buggers want? Greedy bunch of freeloaders who need to be kicked out double quick if they can't see what a good thing they have going. Apart from totally Islamic crap heap countries where disgruntled Muslims are welcome to go, which country in the world allows them the freedoms they get in India?

These guys may not learn and Indian "tolerance" and "patience" may be running out.

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Postby vsudhir » 22 Dec 2007 05:57

Shiv sar,

Complementing what you've been hinting at, here's Tarun Vijay (RSS wallah) writing in TOI....

Threat to part, communalise the most secular aspects of life, inflame and see the results resting on a couch till the final hour arrives. That's the Jinnah theory, propounded by the non-practising Muslim, who created and led a frenzy resulting in our motherland's Partition. Whatever he would have been before his calculated steps towards becoming Qaid-e-Azam should be weighed against the fact that his creation, Pakistan, has been singularly responsible for an unprecedented bloodbath of Hindus post-1947.

If a pre-Partition Congress agreed to Jinnah's theory of Partition to have Nehru realise his wish to unfurl the Tricolor on the ramparts of the Red Fort, the post-Partition Congress is creating the same Jinnah model with politics dividing the national spirit and violating the Constitution. The proposal to have a separate fifteen per cent quota in the 11th Five Year Plan for minorities (read Muslims) is the most sinister kind of an action that makes us look a semi-theocratic despotic state.

In fact, its content and import is so embarrassingly pampering, aimed at soliciting votes of a particular community that patriotic and reasonable Indian Muslims should stand up and say no to this farce that is bound to further ghettoize them.

The UPA government says the separate communal award is necessary for minorities as they are a weaker section, hence, need extra support. But has the Constitution given any clear indication about who shall be deemed as minorities in India? The truth is that a dithering and desolate UPA government has brought this proposal only for the Muslims keeping the general elections in mind that may be announced soon.

Even otherwise who forms a minority and where is obfuscated in the law, yet to be defined clearly. Recently, the Allahabad High Court gave a judgment saying Muslims are not a minority in UP and, later, the Punjab High Court said that Sikhs do not form a minority in Punjab. By the same yardstick, can we say Muslims are a minority in J&K? The way the government has tried to placate a particular religious group bodes ill for the social fabric and polity of the nation.

If the extra financial provisions are not just for the Muslims, how shall the government decide about the minority status of any applicant that may come before its various ministries for availing the benefits of this obnoxious provision? Shall it accept Hindus as minorities in J&K, Mizoram or Meghalaya? Has it followed this line of action anytime in the last sixty years with regard to the formation of minority commissions in such states? Secondly, do the deserving weaker sections of Indian society need to be determined only on the communal basis? What about the weaker sections amongst tribals, scheduled castes and women?

A ruling coalition that is headed and remote-controlled by a Christian person of foreign origin should have been doubly cautious not to bruise the national secular fabric using the state instrument, which is expected see all the citizens without any discrimination as per the constitutional principles. On the contrary, this coalition, run by so-called secular minority leaders has been making assaults on Hindu icons, symbols of faith and signature posts of their collective memory ad nauseam as if hurting Hindus doesn't make an iota of a difference.


Read it all

That bitterness is more general and widespread among SDRE yindoos in India than many are prepared to concede, seems like.

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Postby shiv » 22 Dec 2007 06:09

vsudhir wrote:
Read it all

That bitterness is more general and widespread among SDRE yindoos in India than many are prepared to concede, seems like.


Badly worded article that - it whines more than it motivates or informs. Just won't do. IMO.

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Postby vsudhir » 22 Dec 2007 06:17

Badly worded article that - it whines more than it motivates or informs. Just won't do. IMO.


Fair enough.

Not good enough towards converting dhimmis to truth, perhaps.

Different strokes for different folks, like they say. And its not just the dhimmis who are the audience here.

If nothing I'd give it partial credit for intent and effort. IMO, of course.

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Postby shiv » 22 Dec 2007 06:47

vsudhir wrote:
Badly worded article that - it whines more than it motivates or informs. Just won't do. IMO.


Fair enough.

Not good enough towards converting dhimmis to truth, perhaps.

Different strokes for different folks, like they say. And its not just the dhimmis who are the audience here.

If nothing I'd give it partial credit for intent and effort. IMO, of course.


Let me post my criticism of the article and why I passed those specific comments. This is something people have to learn and I too will learn if someone can teach me a better way.

The article is basically a bitter attack on the UPA and Congress. But the attack on the UPA and Congres is based on a deeper grouse - i.e pandering to the Muslim vote bank.

The article hits out serially at Jinnah, Nehru, Muslims, the UPA, Christian Sonia Gandhi and the "remote control" of the Congress party.

To me, hitting out at so many targets in a bitter tirade sounds like Al Qaeda notes that threaten the entire world with dire consequences.

Far more time and effort can be spent in restricting the attack to some targets and tactically laying off others otherwise the article becomes a big laugh.

Hitting out at "Christian Sonia" is a completely unnecessary self goal. Let us assume that Sonia Gandhi is a foreign spy in the Indian government. Even then hitting out at her fails to take into account the basic ethos of Indian people that the RSS claims to represent. A girl who marries into a family and becomes a bahu becomes part of her husband's family. Many Indians see the fair complexioned tilak wearing lady and see her that way. Insulting her and calling her names when the main issue at stake is pandering to Muslims is the work of an unfocused mind who wants to have a rant rather than remove obstacles to new thought and introduce light into minds in darkness. He is distancing the very people he needs to work on and the article might as well NOT have been written at all if this is the standard of writing. He wants to slap anybody and everybody.

Don't try and score 3 goals when only one goal can be scored at a time. Does the man think that he can hit a six when only singles are possible?

Once again I will cross post what I said earlier in this thread:

The author sits in group A and is trying to fight everyone to his left. He will NEVER succeed in this lifetime. Someone tell him.

Image

The group C needs to be won over.
..
A brief glance at the picture show how much groups A and B have to fight. They have to oppose group C, D and E

But just see how the balance can be tilted by winning over group C rather than keeping them as a separate group linked to D and E.

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On hinduism vis-a-vis Islam

Postby skher » 22 Dec 2007 22:59

JC saar,

I've tried hard but couldn't find any mention of any Vedic conversion ceremony anywhere.
Is there any site where the details of such a conversion ceremony is given?
How does one become Hindu other than birth in Hindu family?

The only conversion/initiation ceremony I know is mundan.
Arya Samaj has re-conversion ceremony.

Indonesia was Hindu because many Chola warriors were garrisoned there and intermarried with the local populace.
Like Parsis,Hindus do not believe in conversion.

IMHO; we didn't convert individuals; we converted entire societies,
drew inspiration from their thinking and assimilated them.
Like saying Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu.

It is in the following context I said that Hinduism is a philosophy and not merely a cleric-based religion.
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... _ch-5.html
What Makes One a Hindu?

Those who follow the Hindu way of life are Hindus. In the Mahabharata the great King Yudhishthira was asked, "What makes a brahmin -- birth, learning or conduct?" He replied, "It is conduct that makes a brahmin." Similarly, the modern Hindu may well state that it is conduct, based upon deep, practical understanding of dharma, karma and reincarnation, that makes a Hindu. After all, he might muse, is not a true devotee whose heart is filled with faith in and love for his Ishta Devata and who lives the Hindu Dharma as much a Hindu as his agnostic neighbor, though the first was born in Indonesia or North America and the second in Andhra Pradesh?


Perhaps all this is psy-ops.Then the question is who has been behind it?

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Re: On hinduism vis-a-vis Islam

Postby SriKumar » 22 Dec 2007 23:26

SonarDeshi wrote: Indonesia was Hindu because many Chola warriors were garrisoned there and intermarried with the local populace.
Like Parsis,Hindus do not believe in conversion.[/url]
IMHO; we didn't convert individuals; we converted entire societies,
drew inspiration from their thinking and assimilated them.
If the only explanation for Hinduism in Indonesia, Thailand, is as you have said (inter-marrying with Indians), then that should show up in the (genetic) ethnicity of those populations. I am no expert but going just by visual cues alone, I'd discount this. The recent studies in archeo-genetics (Genographic Project) would easily prove/disprove this. About converting societies (but not individuals), if that was accepted, then I suppose there was a ceremony for that? (For the record, I am not aware of any conversion ceremony and I haven't looked, and not looking either).

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Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2007 06:11

One of the reasons for Hindu confusion is related to the fact that Hindu tradition does not include the tendency to "stand outside Hindu society and look at it as an outsider". Every human who came into contact with Hindu society was another human who was allowed to have different thoughts and theories.

But thoughts and theories of what Hindu society looks like from the outside were written only by people who considered themselves to be outsiders. In other words, whatever has been written about Hindu society by outsiders has been written in comparison with whatever the outsider felt was "normal" i.e. his own beliefs and behavior were "normal" and what he found in Hindu society was different.

If you look at Hindu theological and philosophical beliefs and customs in modern day terms, you find that Hindus have always allowed, within the ambit of Hindu thought and practice everything ranging from pure theism, to atheism to agnosticism as well as certain other modes of behavior that have probably not been classified by English/"scientific" jargon.

Christianity and Islam are pure theism, and pure monotheism at that. From their origins they have displayed adversarial behavior towards any belief system that exists outside of what is allowed in Islamic or Christian dogma. While islam hasn't moved too much, the West today consists of a large number of atheists, agnostics (of different flavors) as well as theists and the current West can hardly be compared to the 17th century.

What was written about India by early Islamic and Western observers was the differences they saw.

Even in those days Hindus showed what they had - i.e. polytheism with allowance given to some really different theist practices, with atheism and agnosticism also allowed among Hindus. These loose and variable traits were exactly what Islamic and Christian theology considered as dangers to their own dogma and had to be fought. So India was by default the archetypal land of kafirs or pagans - enemies of the dogma of both Islam and Christianity.

And these "observers from the outside" wrote about the differences they saw and set about "correcting the deficiencies" of Hindu society as per their beliefs.

Hindus on the other hand did not have this adversarial relationship with other belief systems and did not characterize Islam and Christianity as "false" or "brutal" or "restrictive". During this phase both Islam and Christianity became part of India - i.e Hindus did not consider these religions as adversaries, even if the people were opposed for their behavior.

It is only since perhaps the late 19th and early 20th centuries onwards, after Macaulay instilled a Western thinking framework among Indians that Hindus achieved a unique perspective - i.e the ability to look at and characterize Christian behavior and islamic behavior from the "outside" in the same way that Hindus were studied "from the outside" in a one sided study.

But the complication we face today is as follows. Our part of the world has gone through islamic domination followed by British domination. British domination was either Christian or "secular in a Christian framework" exactly as described by Balagangadhara. (Note: An example of "secularism in a Christian framework" are the emails i am receiving now in mid/late December wishing me "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons greetings". The reason for the holiday and the good wishes have a Christian origin, but the wording of the greetings is secular.)

But I digress. I was talking of the "complication we have today". Now we have significant Muslim and Christian populations in India. History has already studied and characterized Hindus as believers and practitioners of a particular type. But those same Hindus are now (in the 20th and 21st centuries) acquiring a Western secular framework and are beginning to write about Islam and Christianity using the same methods that were used to study Hindus in the past. That is, Hindus are now looking at Islam and Christianity "from the outside" and writing their views based on their Hindu framework. And what they are saying is just as unflattering to Islam and Christianty as the writings of early Christian and Islamic writers were about Hinduism. Looking at one's own warts and history from a different viewpoint will cause only anger and resentment.

But the minute such anger and resentment is expressed in india by a Muslim or Christian, it becomes "persecution of minorities".

The existing history of Hindus as coded by Islamic and Christian observers in the past is "recorded history". But observations on the Islamic and Christian past from a Hindu perspective is dubbed as being "reactionary" and a threat to coexistence, secularism and peace.

But any criticism of Islam and Christianity has always been called a threat to peace hasn't it? So what's new now? Describing criticism of Islam or Christianity as being "reactionary" or a threat is the very code that Islam and Christianity both follow. In other words any critic of Islam or Christianity is a threat and is by definition wrong.

Someone kindly show me where this leaves any room for a Hindu viewpoint?
Last edited by shiv on 23 Dec 2007 06:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vsudhir » 23 Dec 2007 06:21

Someone kindly show me where this leaves any room for a Hindu viewpoint?


Sar,

dunno why but me gets this uncanny feeling, this is well trod territory.... we're heading towards the "Hindu narrative" storyline.

Last time a thread went there, it shot through the roof in terms of thread hit rate, thread teperature and paricipant pulse rate.... didn't end well, IIRC.

Bah, am now just rambling I guess.
But do pls continue the good work of education, re-education and pre-education. Your style of telling it like it is, is apt. Different strokes for different folks and all sorely needed. IMHO.

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Postby Rye » 23 Dec 2007 06:33

Shiv wrote:

But any criticism of Islam and Christianity has always been called a threat to peace hasn't it? So what's new now? Describing criticism of Islam or Christianity as being "reactionary" or a threat is the very code that Islam and Christianity both follow. In other words any critic of Islam or Christianity is a threat and is by definition wrong.

Someone kindly show me where this leaves any room for a Hindu viewpoint?


Hindus will only find as much space as they bother to create for their viewpoint. As of now, most hindus are gutless wimps who are even afraid to wear their polytheism on their sleeves for fear of offending them monotheists.



This is from a link in the Paki thread, where an american (most likely an agnostic/atheist/rationalist) observes this same behaviour among christian fundamentalists (that is mirrored in islamist behaviour)

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/3086/81/

20) I'm sick and tired of these new "Christians are being persecuted" TV ads. You know, the ones where some Chinese kid narrates how she was forced to walk barefoot through the snow to a detention center because she wrote stuff about Jesus ... blah, blah, blah. The truth is the overly religious thrive on claims of persecution, real or Madison Avenue-imagined. Nothing stirs up the religiously enthralled like a ripping, tear-jerking tale of persecution. More importantly, nothing opens up the wallets of the herd faster either. One might suggest to them that maybe if fundamentalist Christians tried to be a little less "up everyone's nose," every time we turn around these days they might face less persecution. That assumes, of course, they really are being "persecuted" every time they make the claim — which I doubt. Often what they view as persecution is simple, non-violent, rhetorical push-back from those of us who've heard quite enough about their supernatural pretend friend(s) of choice. They consider such push back "persecution." We call it self-defense.

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Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2007 06:42

vsudhir wrote:
Someone kindly show me where this leaves any room for a Hindu viewpoint?


Sar,

dunno why but me gets this uncanny feeling, this is well trod territory.... we're heading towards the "Hindu narrative" storyline.

Last time a thread went there, it shot through the roof in terms of thread hit rate, thread teperature and paricipant pulse rate.... didn't end well, IIRC.

Bah, am now just rambling I guess.
But do pls continue the good work of education, re-education and pre-education. Your style of telling it like it is, is apt. Different strokes for different folks and all sorely needed. IMHO.


vsudhir - my mind is my mind. My intention is not to stir up a mess, but in a country full of Hindus it is easy for Hindus to become brutal . Brutality is not new to Hindus, but it is not new to anyone else either.

I value and love my country deeply and believe that we need to move forward. I see a renaissance occurring in Hindus thought although Hindus don't seem to realise it. I see the renaissance as inevitable and unavoidable.

Although it is criticised and dissed, Macaulay's education methods have touched several hundred million Hindus and they now see the world in the reductionist manner that western thought excels in. This is not just the Holy Hindu Trinity of "psec, macaulayits and dhimmi" but also aam junta. And Hindus are now openly characterizing everything in black and white terms in a manner that was the prerogative of only western scholars (secular in Christian framework).

Unless Hindus, or people who are able to think in a Hindu and Western framework are able to recognize this Hindu renaissance and channel it honestly (dharmically) - Hindus will bite back violently. Already "minorities" in india have seen this and we hear great cries of minorities being suppressed. But what the minorities often don't understand and cannot understand is that the behavior of the Christian and Muslim faiths has always claimed victimization and threat. So at a time in history when Christians and Muslims may really really face Hindu wrath their fears can easily be dismissed by saying that they are "crying wolf" as usual.

Unless Hindus are characterized with some honesty, I see them gradually getting into vengeance mode. I would like to see Hindus renaissance without the tit for tat brutality that Islam and Christianity have both inflicted upon their own believers and others. At the same time I want to see Hindu renassaince occurring. Isn't it strange that the world wants islamic renaisance but ma be afraid of Hindu renaissance?

But these are my thoughts.

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Postby vsudhir » 23 Dec 2007 06:55

Unless Hindus are characterized with some honesty, I see them gradually getting into vengeance mode.

Of late, yes, me's been getting jitters of why majoritarianism can be a slippery slope towards fascism. Of course I'd like to think India can do better than repeat that mistake, but who knows?

And yes, am also slowly coming to believe that Hinduism will survive this century with most of its flock intact, something I'd come to doubt when looking at the organised and relentless attacks it has been taking.

I would like to see Hindus renaissance without the tit for tat brutality that Islam and Christianity have both inflicted upon their own believers and others. At the same time I want to see Hindu renassaince occurring. Isn't it strange that the world wants islamic renaisance but ma be afraid of Hindu renaissance?


Nice put.

But these are my thoughts.

Thoughts I respect. A lot. Don't necessarily agree everytime though.
/But that would be my prerogative, I guess.

I'll keep quite now, more than willing to listen and learn. We do live in interesting times. Thanks for everything.

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Postby Sumeet » 23 Dec 2007 07:51

Posted by Rangudu originally in puke terror role thread.

Rangudu wrote:Link

Scotland - Counterfeit DVD gang funds Kashmiri terrorists

By Richard Elias

A SCOTTISH gang is bankrolling murderous terrorist attacks in Kashmir, raising hundreds of thousands of pounds each year through counterfeiting and mortgage fraud, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.

MI5 sources say around 50 Scots Asians – most of them in Glasgow – are raising funds for Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM), a Kashmiri separatist group responsible for hundreds of deaths and reportedly involved in the kidnap and murder of American journalist Daniel Pearl.

Much of the cash raised in Scotland is sent first to Dubai, where it is laundered, and then passed to JeM terrorists operating in the Kashmir region, say security sources.

It is estimated that up to £50,000 a month is raised in Scotland. As well as money from mortgage fraud, around £15,000 of this total is raised by selling counterfeit DVDs, CDs and clothing at market stalls and in pubs and clubs across Scotland.

Last week, a British citizen and JeM suspect, Rashid Rauf, wanted in the UK for his alleged part in a plot to blow up 10 trans-Atlantic airliners last summer, escaped from custody in Pakistan.

JeM militants have been waging a war for Kashmiri independence since the group was formed in 2001 by scholar Maulana Mazood Azhar. They have been a proscribed terror group in the UK for years.

MI5 learned about the Glasgow fundraising operation from the Pakistani secret service, the ISI, which became aware of large amounts of money being paid into suspects' bank accounts.

A security source told Scotland on Sunday: "The Kashmiri problem is becoming an increasing headache for both the Pakistani and Indian governments, and they have been keeping a very close watch on those individuals who they believe are orchestrating the violence. It was from this surveillance work and analysis of their bank details that the alert was first raised about money coming in from the UK."

The Scottish-based organisers of the group have, so far, managed to keep a relatively low profile, making it hard for the authorities to act against them.

But ever since the ISI tip-off a few months ago, security services have been urged by their bosses to turn upthe heat on individuals they suspect are behind the scams.

All of the Scots behind the fundraising are British-born but remain fiercely supportive of their roots.

There are also hot-beds of support for Kashmiri militants in London and Birmingham, although a recent crackdown has had a severe impact on the activities of fundraisers.


The security source added: "The people involved in the mortgage frauds are only too aware that the banks and lenders are none too keen on prosecuting anyone caught up in this charade, as it will mean them having to answer a lot of awkward questions in court."

In a recent Law Society report, it issued a warning about the risks of mortgage fraud: "The recent slowdown in the UK property market has exposed a rise in mortgage fraud by organised criminals and the potential vulnerability of professionals to be exploited by organised crime syndicates."



Why will ISI do that ? After all this money is to be directed towards jihadi activities against India.

also does this indicate that slowly west is understanding that jihadis are jihadis and there is nothing like jihadis for india only or jihadis for UK/US only.

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Postby Rye » 23 Dec 2007 08:08

deleted. wrong thread.
Last edited by Rye on 23 Dec 2007 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SwamyG » 23 Dec 2007 08:31

Now look what Prof Arvind Sharma is saying (resonates with what Balagangadhara/Jacob says) some sample from this news item

Arvind Sharma said the feeling of disempowerment in public sphere is the reason for both radical Islam and Hindutva. Sharma also pinpointed "asymmetrical secularism" practised in India as a reason for Hindutva and went on to suggest that it is a structural problem with the Indian Constitution.


In the case of Hindutva, Sharma felt it was a product of India's skewed practice of secularism. He said the asymmetry was not merely in discourse, but structured in the Indian Constitution that favours some religion over the other.


Some aspects of tackling Islamism seems to point straight to the creation of our nation and constitution.

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Postby SwamyG » 23 Dec 2007 08:50

A nice interview of Prof. Arvind Sharma having some relation to what is being discussed here. Ensoy.

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Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2007 09:19

SwamyG wrote:Now look what Prof Arvind Sharma is saying (resonates with what Balagangadhara/Jacob says) some sample from this news item

Arvind Sharma said the feeling of disempowerment in public sphere is the reason for both radical Islam and Hindutva. Sharma also pinpointed "asymmetrical secularism" practised in India as a reason for Hindutva and went on to suggest that it is a structural problem with the Indian Constitution.


In the case of Hindutva, Sharma felt it was a product of India's skewed practice of secularism. He said the asymmetry was not merely in discourse, but structured in the Indian Constitution that favours some religion over the other.


Some aspects of tackling Islamism seems to point straight to the creation of our nation and constitution.


Thanks for bringing the thread back on track. I wanted to do that by asking "What has all this digression about Hindu world view got to do with tackling Islamic extremism?"

The importance of the Hindu world view is its absence from public debate but its very living presence in Hindu society.

Ultimately the effects and responses to Islamic extremism are not going to come from this kind of blinkered public debate, but from visceral and likely unconstitutional reactions from Hindu society.

One may well ask "If derogatory xyz was written about Hindus in the past, what is the problem now? Just say what is right and stop complaining"

In fact my purpose is to try and say what is right without complaining.

The cliches and stereotypes that were written about Hindu society were in the past. And those past writings have become part of "public knowledge" in many insidious ways. I will not expand on this too much now but it is easy to give examples of how a view of Hindus as observed primarily by British scholars writing "secular observations made from within a primarily Christian mindset" echoes down to this day.

These same viewpoints were bestowed upon Indian Macaulayites - a fact that has been lamented upon at length on these fora.

But that is not all, the "Islamic" connection comes from the fact that Islam too had its own class of Macaulayite who learned the same "facts about Hindu tendencies". The vast majority of Macaulayite Muslims went to Pakistan, where they had no need to be diplomatic about what they felt. They too did their bit to paint Indian and Hindu society as it had been painted by the observations of British or western scholars.

When US funded Islamist forces in Pakistan attacked India, the rhetoric that supported such irredentism was the traditionally accepted "fact" that Hindu society is primarily faulty and therefore Muslim grievances in Kashmir (or elsewhere in India) must necessarily be genuine. This is in fact how Stephen Cohen writes. This is also the language of Macaulayite Indian Muslims such as Omar Khalidi.

So what we find is the convenient dovetailing of the view of Hindus written by Western scholars (writing from a secular but Christian framework) and the views of Indian (and Pakistani) Islamists.

Under the circumstances, the Hindu has to start all debate from a position in which he is considered to be representing a bigoted and faulty group. Unless he accepts this right at the beginning of debate, he is dubbed reactionary or a fundamentalist.

Any Hindu who rebels and says "I do not represent a bigoted reactionary viewpoint" is automatically assigned to the group of bigoted reactionary right wing Hindus who, as we all must accept, are murderers of Muslims and Christians and torturers of minorities.

The ability to explain this anomalous situation that Hindus find themselves in is difficult at the best of times, and in the absence of being able to say what they feel, some Hindu groups eventually end up being violent anyway, proving the point that Hindus are bigoted and violent. You cannot be wholly Hindu without joining "right wing". Being moderate and secular means accepting of an islamic viewpoint or a secular viewpoint within a Christian framework. The terminolgy is loaded with negative meaning for expresing that one is Hindu.

I would not like to see vengeful Hindu violence occurring, but I must point out that if it does occur it will be no problem for me. As a Hindu I will not be targeted and it is easy for me to see Hindu anger at historic misperception rising to manifest as outbreaks of violence and breakdown of law and order.

But the fact is, in India it is quit OK to be scathingly critical of anything and everything Hindu and be considered "secular, broadminded and liberal" while a chirp of criticism or revelation of negative historic fact about "minority religions" causes a person to be branded a bigoted right-winger. Little wonder that the Indian constitution itself is being questioned using the perfectly valid logic of Balagangadhara.

Islam and Christianity at their core ARE adversarial by nature and seek to spread. If they are given free rein in a "secular society" they must be spread by all means available to them, fair and foul. Hinduism is non adversarial by nature and when you have a combination of Hinduism, Islam and Christianity, there will only be one way spread detrimental to Hindus.

If there is no constitutional or legal solution to this, one natural survival solution that one can expect from Hindu society is the development of hawks who respond to adversarial action with similar adversarial action. is it any wonder that minorities are bound to get persecuted in India and the Indian government will be able to do very little about it?

Either Islam (or Christianity) have to bend their adversarial rules or Hindus have to buckle and accept. Many Hindus are feeling that they have buckled and accepted enough. There are no prizes for guessing how Hindus will react to Islamic extremism.

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Postby Rye » 23 Dec 2007 09:31

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Last edited by Rye on 23 Dec 2007 13:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby SSridhar » 23 Dec 2007 09:44

Islamis extremists threaten Sania's doctor
Now her detractors seem to be spreading their net wider, training their focus even on those who are associated with the player. It is learnt that the doctors who have been treating Sania Mirza for the injuries she has sustained from time to time over the last few years have been the targets of hate mail.

Dr KJ Reddy of the Apollo Hospital here, who was responsible for the player's rehabilitation on several occasions in the past and had helped her recover from career-threatening injuries, has been warned by a few individuals and groups from India and Pakistan. The senior orthopedic surgeon has received four letters all of which warned him of dire consequences if he continued to treat Sania Mirza as she was bringing bad name to the religion.

While two letters were received from Pakistan, one was from Bangalore and the other from Kanauj in Uttar Pradesh.

The message is simple in all these four letters: "Dont treat Sania. She is getting injured because god does not want her to play as she was bringing bad name to the religion. Please don't treat her or else you will face serious consequences. We will not hesitate to harm you."

In an envelope that the doctor received immediately after he treated Sania Mirza last March, a letter was even addressed to Sania.

"I have informed Sania's father about this but kept it from the girl because I thought these things will affect her game as also the treatment," said Dr Reddy.

What was his first reaction? "I felt disturbed for a few days. I will not say I was frightened but we cannot ignore these things. One thing that disturbed me most was that they are targeting the doctor. I don't understand why they are upset with Sania. She is the pride of the nation and everybody should be proud of her achievements," Reddy said.

The letter from UP was addressed to Dr Reddy and the CEO of Apollo Hospital Dr Hariprasad. Signed by one Noor, the letter is written in Hindi with a footnote in English which warned the doctor to get the letter translated into English in case he didn't know Hindi, for it was important for him as well as Sania Mirza to know its contents. It ends with a stern warning: "Please pay attention to the letters otherwise it should be very harmful for you."

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Postby SwamyG » 23 Dec 2007 11:14

If there is no constitutional or legal solution to this, one natural survival solution that one can expect from Hindu society is the development of hawks who respond to adversarial action with similar adversarial action. is it any wonder that minorities are bound to get persecuted in India and the Indian government will be able to do very little about it?


Exactly, if the people sense that they are being treated fairly by the governmental apparatus, then they are going to take the law into their own hands.

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Postby Rishirishi » 23 Dec 2007 15:48

In stead of dealing with the prolem, we seem to be intelectualising it. You cant reason, bargain or agree with thease people. Islamisam has some very remarkale simmilarities with that of Hitlers natzism.

1 We are better and destined to lead the world (Hindus are Kafirs, and not equal humans)

2 We want to rule the world (islamic Kalifiat)

3 Democracy is not the solution for problems, rather it is the root of them.

4 All means, including supression of thought, jail or even murder of innocent people is acceptable, for the defence of the ideology.

As for the Mulism domitanted countries rules 1 and 4 is already implemented. Rule 2 lives in the hearts of souls or all Muslims, where as rule 3 has no relevance to most of the islamic world.

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Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2007 16:25

Rishirishi wrote:In stead of dealing with the prolem, we seem to be intelectualising it.


No disagreement with this comment. But what you have written about Islamism is well known on this forum and has been rehashed a hundred million times.

There is resistance within Indian society that feeds Islamist extremism. Either we eliminate the non Muslim Indians who resist or we try and see what can be done to get them to open their eyes, or bypass them and make them irrelevant. None of these things has occurred so far although we are finished and done with intellectualization of the poison of Islamic extremism. The first step in that is intellectualization. Keeping the issue dumbed down and saying "Let us fight the bustards" does not seem to be of any great help. Anyone who has said that has been declared a rightwing Hindu exxtremist by half of all Indians and most of the world.

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Postby Prem » 23 Dec 2007 23:16

With Gujrat election , a small step is taken . Majority Gujratis are willing to use both democratic and demographic methods to solve the problem.
The suckularist media is given first open defeat . They either reform or die and wither away. With the exception of East side of India , Modi have now set new paradigm for winning next general election.

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Postby Rishirishi » 24 Dec 2007 00:55

There is resistance within Indian society that feeds Islamist extremism. Either we eliminate the non Muslim Indians who resist or we try and see what can be done to get them to open their eyes, or bypass them and make them irrelevant. None of these things has occurred so far although we are finished and done with intellectualization of the poison of Islamic extremism. The first step in that is intellectualization. Keeping the issue dumbed down and saying "Let us fight the bustards" does not seem to be of any great help. Anyone who has said that has been declared a rightwing Hindu exxtremist by half of all Indians and most of the world.


I think we agree on the problem, but perhaps disagree on the way to solve the problem.

I do not think it is a case of "opening the eyes" large sections of the society already know what islamists are all about.

So what is the problem?

Basically the nation lacks the spine to take hard and tough desisions. Indians just want to brush the problems under the carpet, and hope that the dirt under their feet dissapears.

Just think about it. Why is article 370, which barres the majority of the people from purchasing land in Kashmir? Why has the problem with Hindu refugees been brushed under the carpet? Why has the country not been able to throw out the illegal Bangladeshis in NE?

This kind of absurd logic must be dealt with direclty. By that I mean, we should be calling a spade for a spade, and not be afraid to demand solutions.

Yes, there is a risk of being labelled as an extrimist, if you call a spade for a spade. But if sufficient people starts to speak their minds, then the extreemism label may just dissapear.

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Postby JCage » 24 Dec 2007 01:19

I do not think it is a case of "opening the eyes" large sections of the society already know what islamists are all about.


No they dont. They claim they do. But any small thing and they start wailing. All it takes is hardline decisions against extremism by any elected official and the dhimmis will start wailing about how he is "anti-minority" and cant be a national leader.

Frankly, while I agree with Shivs belief that these loonies need to be told gently about how silly they are, Its hard to be patient with them.
Mind you they are shameless (and stupid) enough to start linking minorities with "dalits" or this or that, or whatever silly (and offensive) analogy comes to their mind.

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Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2007 04:00

Rishirishi wrote:This kind of absurd logic must be dealt with direclty. By that I mean, we should be calling a spade for a spade, and not be afraid to demand solutions.

Yes, there is a risk of being labelled as an extrimist, if you call a spade for a spade. But if sufficient people starts to speak their minds, then the extreemism label may just dissapear.


:rotfl:

Sorry rishirishi. Please allow me a laugh at your expense.

The solution does not lie in a few people becoming extremist and hoping the tag will go away.

The solution is in getting more people to become extremist and not worrying about the tag which they get. Their name is crap anyway. It is the fear of labelling that keeps people's mouths shut, because they are labelled extremist even if they voice an opinion.

I just said it diplomatically but unfortunately saying things diplomatically makes people misunderstand.

:lol:

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Postby surinder » 24 Dec 2007 13:27

Johann wrote:I've said it here a number of times - Pakistan was an act of pessimism and retreat, a recognition that democracy in the *long term* would not allow for the survival of dar-ul-Islam within India.


Johann:

Your statement caught my interest and I have been thinking about it. I must say that partly I see what you mean, but I cannot connect all the dots and make sense of it completely.

Pakistan seems to me a pessimism because Islam could not get back *all* of India. But it is also a victory because it got 1/3 of India on a platter with very little price. They have a saying amongst the Muslims of India: "Hans key liya hai Pakistan, larh ke lengey Hindustan". If you do not know Hindi, it means "We took Pakistan with a laugh, we will take Hindustan with a fight." Bottom line, it refers to the easy with Pakistan was wrested from an unwilling India. That indicates victory ... a resounding one at that.

Pakistan seems like a victory where the Islamic rule over India has been preserved. It also appears to be a successor state of Mughals.

Then there is another bizzarre outcome of Partition: Punjabi Mussalman had no history worth mentioning in Indian history. But Pakistan has been basically a Punjabi Mussalman Empire. They are the most unlikely source of an empire, but reality is that they control some very very vital things in the world. It is bizzarre because Punjabi Mussalman's have been conspicous in Indian history by their unremarkableness. They now control a vast territory. They control the resources of Baluchistan, the sea ports of Sind, and the population of Pashtuns. They control access to Central Asia. Only thing they do not control are the head waters of the Sub-continent rivers. (American experts on Pakistan do not dwell on this at all. Quite understandable, because their aim in understanding Pakistan is with the purpose of using and controling Pakistan for American interests. The empire aspect of Pakistan narrative is uninteresting to them. To us it is vital to understand.)

Yet what you write also seems true. It seems like a retreat ... a defeat.

The Pakistani narrative (to me) seems like a parallel tale of many contradictory, bizzarre & often unconnected stories. I am not able to resolve all this and make a unified theory of Pakistan.

IF you can help connect these things, I would appreciate it. Can you explain why you call Pakistan pessimistic retreat.

Regards.

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Postby Neshant » 24 Dec 2007 15:16

GOI should ask for an equal number of temples to be built in saudi arabia.

----------

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FK23Df02.html

Saudi Arabia wants to build 4500 madrassas in India (to produce millions of terrorists)

According to reports, the Saudi Arabian Embassy in New Delhi is
pushing - somewhat tentatively - India's Human Resource Development
Ministry and Minorities Commission to set up new madrassas
(seminaries) in India. The same reports claim the Saudi royal family
has cleared plans to construct 4,500 madrassas in India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka at a cost of US$35 million, to promote "modern and liberal education with Islamic values".
Last edited by Neshant on 24 Dec 2007 15:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rishirishi » 24 Dec 2007 15:18

Sorry rishirishi. Please allow me a laugh at your expense.

The solution does not lie in a few people becoming extremist and hoping the tag will go away.

The solution is in getting more people to become extremist and not worrying about the tag which they get. Their name is crap anyway. It is the fear of labelling that keeps people's mouths shut, because they are labelled extremist even if they voice an opinion.

I just said it diplomatically but unfortunately saying things diplomatically makes people misunderstand


Well you can laugh, but the reality stayes the same. You rightly say that it is the fear of labeling, that keep the mouths shut. But why are we so afraid of being labelled as extreemists, by left ving dogmatic pot heads.? That is the true question. In my opinion it is becase of "diplomatic speak" and "intelectual discussions". No one has the spine to say the truth, and that is why everyone remains passive.

let me put a few questions on this board and let us see if people are willing to freely discuss the matters.

1
The Muslim population is growing at a faster rate then other communities. When will the Muslim population be in a position do dominate politics. (when will it reach 35-40%)

2
How will an India change as a result of a Muslim lead coalition government?

3
Why should Hindus accept erosion of their influence.

4
The Muslims in J&K did not hesitate to clense the vally of Hindus. So why should the Hindus not clear an area in the vally and create a majority in the state.

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Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2007 15:39

Rishirishi wrote:
let me put a few questions on this board and let us see if people are willing to freely discuss the matters.

1
The Muslim population is growing at a faster rate then other communities. When will the Muslim population be in a position do dominate politics. (when will it reach 35-40%)

2
How will an India change as a result of a Muslim lead coalition government?

3
Why should Hindus accept erosion of their influence.

4
The Muslims in J&K did not hesitate to clense the vally of Hindus. So why should the Hindus not clear an area in the vally and create a majority in the state.


Fine. It looks like you have not been following the discussion on here and choose to come in as late latif with same ol'.

Let me answer your questions clearly and simply as they are usually answered - by a certain powerful category of Hindus, whom you say need to be told "boldly and undiplomatically". Please control your temper when you read my answers - they are meant to make you angry. But please respond. Answer undiplomatically if you wish, and show that you are not a raving angry maniac that all people who speak boldly for Hindus are made out to be.

1
The Muslim population is growing at a faster rate then other communities. When will the Muslim population be in a position do dominate politics. (when will it reach 35-40%)


This is an outright lie based on the new Modi model of Hindu fundamentalism that kills thousand of Muslims in staged riots and says Muslims are proliferating. I have myself seen the cooked up statistics that are made up by the khaki chaddi clad pan chewin spittin RSS/ Bajrang Dal whom the likes of you are batting for. When you have 300 million Dalits being denied water and kicked out of temples every day - a rebellion in every street corner you want to blame Muslims for that. If you want to know about Hitler just look in the mirror.



2
How will an India change as a result of a Muslim lead coalition government?
Whatever the change the government will be better than one led by your fundamentalist murderers and their apologists.

3
Why should Hindus accept erosion of their influence.
Stop whining like a stricken jackass. What influence did Hindus have? Just look at the state of your goddan country and you see what "Hindu influence" means.

4
The Muslims in J&K did not hesitate to clense the vally of Hindus. So why should the Hindus not clear an area in the vally and create a majority in the state
Exactly what do you think your "security forces" are doing? They are killing Muslims. The state was always Muslim territory and why is it that Hindus always claim that they never sought territory when Kashmir is a living example of state sponsored Hindu expansionism? What is all this "dharma" you keep foaming at your mouths about? How about a dharmic plebiscite as was promised to the UN - whose security council your Hindu nation so desperately wants to join?

For others who read this: This is a rerun of "You farted"
Last edited by shiv on 24 Dec 2007 15:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SSridhar » 24 Dec 2007 15:42

I do not think it is a case of "opening the eyes" large sections of the society already know what islamists are all about.

So what is the problem?


Rishirishi, I agree 400% onleee with JC. No, there is total ignorance about what is happening in our neighbourhood and how our lives are being affected by that. It may be surprising that most Indians (99% or even more) simply do not understand enough about Pakistan, Islamists and the jehadis operating there and their cells and stooges in India. It is astounding that after so many wars, hundreds of massive terror attacks, hundreds more thwarted, Indians are foolish enough not to know about the true dimensions of what is hitting them. I classify these Indians into the following category, in increasing numbers of these groups :
  1. The jihadis who support their counterparts in TSP
  2. The Islamists who sympathise with their counterparts in TSP
  3. The politicians who are opportunists and do not want to *possibly* upset their Muslim population by talking about Islamic extremism emanating from TSP
  4. Politicians who are totally ignorant
  5. Pseudo secularists who think that being secular means not calling an Islamic spade a spade.
  6. Left liberals whose sole ideology is to decimate the majoritarian religion (irrespective of the religion or the country they operate)
  7. Common people who do not care about this so long as they are not affected significantly by that or who are not privy to well-informed discussions etc.

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Postby SSridhar » 24 Dec 2007 15:48

Neshant wrote:GOI should ask for an equal number of temples to be built in saudi arabia.

----------

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FK23Df02.html

Saudi Arabia wants to build 4500 madrassas in India


Neshant, even if KSA allows 10000 temples to be built in the Land of the Sand, we should not have any more Saudi-funded madrassah here. I say 'any more' because there are hundreds of them already operational. We already have Deoband and we do not want Salafist or Wahhabi brand of Islam. But, Arjun Singh being who he is, he may allow this.

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Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2007 15:50

And - to add to Sridhar's list a bunch of erudite Macaulay dhimmis who rule the media and airwaves. Try getting past them with blunt talk and no diplomacy.

The problem is that people want to fight without even knowing where or who the enemy is or how to win him over. Rishirishi has not even bothered to read and understand what has been written and acts like he understands it all - and will end up looking like another poor, pathetic "fighting Hindu" with all fire and no direction to be dismissed as another fundamentalist "Jaish-ri ram, just like Jaish e Mohammad"

And yes. No sophistication of the sort required to overcome.

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Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2007 16:44

SSridhar wrote:
Neshant wrote:GOI should ask for an equal number of temples to be built in saudi arabia.

----------

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FK23Df02.html

Saudi Arabia wants to build 4500 madrassas in India


Neshant, even if KSA allows 10000 temples to be built in the Land of the Sand, we should not have any more Saudi-funded madrassah here. I say 'any more' because there are hundreds of them already operational. We already have Deoband and we do not want Salafist or Wahhabi brand of Islam. But, Arjun Singh being who he is, he may allow this.


Let Saudi Arabia allow ONE Hindu temple. Let us speak boldy and undiplomatically and get that. Let us boldly and undiplomatically demonstrate in front of the Saudi embassy. Let us carry stone idols into Saudi Arabia.

Exactly who is stopping us? What is stopping us?

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Postby prashanth » 24 Dec 2007 17:36

any kannadiga here? Please read Shri bhyrappa's novel Aavarana.
You'll know the truth.
http://desicritics.org/2007/06/14/003322.php

we all know that Sania Mirza's doctors have received threats. Just how far can we let this fundamentalism reach on the grounds of secularism? Can we live without fear amidst such people?

Godhra carnage has received lot of critisism, and personally i feel mass murders of innocents are bad. But it did not happen without a reason.
Throughout the history, gujarat has been at the receiving end of Muslim atrocities. Ghazni invaded the region seventeen times.Ghore came there to plunder the place. Men were killed in large numbers. Women raped.Young boys sodomised and castrated. Yes friends, let us see the history as it is.
Thus the hatred against musilms is ingrained in the blood of hindus in gujarat.
A slight (alleged) provocation led to Godra carnage.


These terrorists seek arousal in killing the innocents. The see it as an achievenent. But it is their great blunder. Every human being has a limit.
Fear of life instantly turns into rage. In rage moral values are transparent.
And when terrorist act goes over the brink, take my word, everybody, including the so called secualr communists will come to roads to do justice.

Godhra carnage has awakened the fundamentalists that india is no longer under Mughals.It is high time they behaved or else heavens know what will happen.

Apologies if i have hurt anybody. But this avarana stuff brings tears.

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Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2007 18:09

prashanth wrote:It is high time they behaved or else heavens know what will happen.


Boss. We don't really need to invoke "heavens" to say what will happen.

As I and others have repeated time and time again on this thread and others, it is only a matter of time before repeated "Islamic" retribution in India against all sorts of things will increasingly result in Hindu retribution against Muslims.

If Islamic terrorists can claim to represent Muslims and there is no clear call from Muslim groups to condemn the terrorists or ask for help from Hindus if they are themselves being intimidated by terrorists - then more and more tit for tat targeting of Muslims will happen in incidents similar to those that have already started occurring.

I would feel genuinely sorry for many innocent Muslims (as I do for innocent Hindus who are targeted) because this tit for tat violence is probably politically preventable by "secular" people, primarily Hindus who choose to condemn other Hindus and not anyone else.

The stunned look on the faces of Congress workers and the look on the face of Seema Mustafa's toy-boy beau Karat - who looked as if he had just wept may well be an indicator of what they will look like if they do not understand that there must be public debate about feelings that are being expressed by ordinary people who are by no means extremist. Just this morning I was actually having a game of Golf (Macaulay and friends personified) and was chatting with two people I had just met. Retired senior executives and businessmen, voluntary workers using their wealth and leisure for social work and they expressed the same sentiment expressed here about vote bank politics and political dynasties that choose to be scathingly critical of anyone who even chirps a word in support of Hindus.

When the voices of moderate Hindus are gagged by branding them extremist supporters, the only people who will not be gagged or put down are extremists themselves. And with a Hindu majority India they will kill. And when they kill, Hindu seculars will blame the moderates whom they call as extremists just because they speak for Hindus. And neither the extremists nor the moderate Hindus will give a damn. Only, the moderates will secretly feel sorry. But they have just about had enough pretending and apologising.

It is getting easier and easier for Hindus to become violent. Day in and day out we see news of terorists being arrested. They are Muslims. Yesterday two Indian muslim men were arrested - and they are said to have been involved in the court blasts and in Varanasi's Sankat Mochan temple blast last year.

Sooner or later there will be a successful terror attack. And it will be from an Islamic group, using local support in India.

India is heading up a dangerous path - but like I said the danger will not touch me - I am Hindu. I would rather not see this situation develop. A political admission that there is a problem and that Hindus should not be hit on their heads and told to "heel and behave" for saying so has to dawn on the secular groups of India.

Mullahs and Muslims are being led up a dangerous path by "Hindu seculars" and being made to believe that the fault is all with extremist Hindu groups and that Islam is innocent. It will be the Muslism who feel the brunt of the retribution if they do not realise that they are being had, and that they are being misled into not seeing Hindu anger by "secular" Hindus who think they can get away forever by cursing other Hindus and hoping for the best.

I hope for the sake of my country that these idiots will see the light.

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Postby Apu » 24 Dec 2007 18:40

That was beautifhully put shiv!!! Hit the nail on the head...


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