Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 3

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Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 3

Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2007 18:19

Last Page - old thread


JwalaMukhi wrote:The Hindu Indian Secular Intellectual (HISH) is primarily handicapped because of inadequate connection to his roots. [/u]


Not just inadequate connection to his roots, but ignorance of the existence of those roots outside his-story books. I have been there, done that, and own a T-shirt shop. There is a clear divide between Macaulay putra and motherland.

But he is powerful because his wealth and power reside in his condition. He has shown his competence and ability. Those who might want to mock this (for whatever reason) only need to go back to the text of Macaulay's original minute to see what The Great God Macaulay himself said:
http://www.languageinindia.com/april2003/macaulay.html

There are in this very town natives who are quite competent to discuss political or scientific questions with fluency and precision in the English language. I have heard the very question on which I am now writing discussed by native gentlemen with a liberality and an intelligence which would do credit to any member of the Committee of Public instruction. Indeed it is unusual to find, even in the literary circles of the continent, any foreigner who can express himself in English with so much facility and correctness as we find in many Hindoos. Nobody, I suppose, will contend that English is so difficult to a Hindoo as Greek to an Englishman.


The English recognised an opportunity and opened it up. The Secular Hindu Intellectual fitted the bill like a key in a lock. Getting him to recognize "native" culture will involve some cognitive dissonance.

I keep repeating this word because it is important. I have accused Non HISI former dhimmi people even on this forum of being "unsophisticated" and scorers of own goals. I have a reason for that.

When you confront a HISI and tell him about his roots, and offer proof, his cognitive dissonance (understanding of truth compared with the conflicting information he was brought up with) causes anger.

If you react to this anger patiently, he can be turned. There is a desi lurking in every Macaulay. It must not be killed. If you react with anger - you are immediately branded a Hindu extremist because any Hindu who is "not him" is an extremist.

Unfortunately this "anger" mistake is committed at the highest levels in the land by the highest people in the BJP and RSS. Their "lack of sophistication" lies in their inability to understand how the Macaulay-putra needs to be handled. Cursing him does not help. It turns him away. Making up stupid names for him that insult him like "pseudosecularism" is a bad mistake. He considers himself secularism itself. You are damaging his image. Would you talk to a man who tells you you are a ch**th? He will call you a name and stop talking to you. And he controls the media. It is a serious mistake to mess with him in his own language, English, unless you are really good, for he is capable of using it on you in a far more effective way. See the ease with which expressions like "merchant of death" appear while the Hindus are still blabbering with their favorite and totally meaningless word "pseudo secularism" to try and describe a complex type of Hindu. No wonder the Macaulay putra laughs. His words are splattered all over Western controlled media.

And cursing him in an Indian language and lamenting that he is "cut off" is of abso-bloody-lootely no use. he just doesn't understand and doesn't care about being cursed in some native tongue.

So what? Are you going to kill him? Not at all. No use. After all your problem is islamic extremism, and if you kill HISI it will only prove what he says "You are a Hindu extremist". And all the Mullahs will agree.

The HISI has to be won over. The first step in that is to stop calling him names and getting angry with him. He should think you are "civilised" like him. Wear suit. Wear boot. Use Chanakya neeti, Use Sun Tzu. Stop using blunderbuss methods. He is immune to that and will checkmate you. Don't push the limits of his brain. Feed him with just enough info to put doubt in his head. If you tell him Taj mahal is "Tejo mahalaya" he will nearly die laughing, but he will not die. Give him information that he can swallow in doses that do not cause anger, resentment or incredulity in him. His family and friends are invariably Hindu - but his "Weshtern circle" will laugh at "tejo mahalaya". He is afraid of ridicule. Don't allow him to be ridiculed. Give him information to be proud, in small doses, using Western quotes and sources. And never give him a chance to think that you are out to humiliate him. Massage his ego. Ask for "English translations" and express your ignorance. Make him feel wanted. Telling him to be a Pracharak is no use. This is like telling him "Live your life my way and then you wil be like me". He will say "Balls. I am happy as I am"

All this requires the sophistication that Hindus have lost.

You can use his tools against him. After all the biggest lament I have read that everyone is using sociology and social engineering against Hindus. What a stupid innocent Hindu lament.

The only new sociology that is coming out of India is from Hindus. You and i an others are part of that process. Indian sociology cannot be studied in English. You have to mix with the locals. Build up local knowledge and allow Macaulay putra converts to fight the Macaylay-putra HISI. Do not get angry. Get things done instead.

Unless Hindus can push the tide of HISI from where they are headed nothing will get done. This we have seen for decades. In the meantime Hindu anger will lead to flare ups that will not be controllable.

I believe the HISI is convertable. Go on that path too before violence becomes the only solution.

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Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2007 18:48

Off topic, but not off topic.

Has anyone read how th Chinese think?

http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/ ... vDec07.pdf


[quote] the Chinese divide their concept of strategy scientifically into basic and
applied theory, relying even today on the word’s ancient roots. For example,
in routing an electronic warfare attack on an adversary’s computer network
through a third country’s network, the Chinese would say they seek to “kill with
a borrowed sword.â€

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Postby JCage » 26 Dec 2007 19:11

Shiv,

You are absolutely correct. The only problem is the patience required for the process of de-dhimmi-izing such gents/ladies.

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Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2007 19:21

JCage wrote: The only problem is the patience required for the process of de-dhimmi-izing such gents/ladies.


JCage - some things are now being said for the first time after 1000 years. Great gains cannot come quickly.

As I pointed out in the Packee thread, and will expand in the Islamism thread, verbal dhimmitude still exists, and not just among Macaulayites, long long after the circumstances that imposed that dhimmitude have passed.

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Postby Atish » 26 Dec 2007 21:21

Continuing on what Shiv said, I would add my own personal observations:

For success in changing hearts and minds, and dealing with people in general, I think it is useful to remove anger and irritation from your psyche forever. Now since these are natural emotions, and the intelligent among us lose patience against constant stupidity, this is dashed difficult to do.

But the trick is to have total control over your emotions. Never let voice, tone and words betray your true emotion. Anger should be used as a tool and a make believe weapon, only exercised when the enemy is thanda.

Actually if you notice Modi does maintain his cool quite well. Perhaps thats part of his effectiveness.

All this comes from personal conviction and a Gita-esque sense of inner peace. I have been struggling with this for years, and so far have only partially succeeded. But I still have a long way to go. And yes, I can see an improvement in my effectiveness in the hearts and minds sphere.

As an aside, the present situation of Hindus and the media can be summed up perfectly in the following couplet (dont remember the poet):

hum aah bhi kare to ho jaaye badnaam
wo qatl bhi kare to charcha nahi hoti

My cry of pain causes infamy
they murder and no one mentions it

Atish.

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Postby JCage » 26 Dec 2007 23:40

A lot of people are saying the same thing. He goes off on a bit of tangent vs the BJP- I really doubt whether Advani et al are Nehruvian in any manner. But anyways, the preceding part is spot on. If an erudite man can write this open declaration of whats going on in India, how long will it take the hoi polloi to realise the same?

Link

A Hindu backlash hits Sonia Gandhi
MANIPAL, India, Dec. 26
M.D. NALAPAT

Since the advent of the rule of the Mughals a millenium ago, central policy in India has discriminated against the Hindu majority within the country. The Mughals favored those of Turko-Iranian origin, followed by those who converted to Islam. The British, during two centuries of rule, implemented policies that deprived all except those of European origin of basic human rights.

Much has been made in Indian history texts of the cruelty of the 1857 mutineers against colonial rule, who killed around 300 individuals of European descent during a brief spasm of violence. But little mention is made of the retribution that followed, in which an estimated 65,000 natives were killed, some from the mouths of cannon. Several "rebel" villages were torched, usually together with their inhabitants.

Neither has there been much reflection on the manner in which British rule reduced India to poverty. From around one-fourth of global output at the start of the 19th century, the share of the subcontinent fell to one-tenth of that by the time the British flag was lowered in New Delhi in 1947.

Independent India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, had been educated from boyhood in Britain. He was so insecure after the British left that he requested the last viceroy of India, Louis Mounbatten, to remain as "free" India's first governor-general and commander-in-chief of the armed forces. British control over the Indian army helped to prevent the full takeover of Kashmir by India in 1948, creating in the process a sore that has festered ever since.

Nehru also relied on British economist Nicholas Kaldor to fashion tax policies that punished the very merchant class that had funded the Congress Party's decades-long struggle against the British. Ironically, the new government was as hostile to Indian entrepreneurship as the colonial power had been, and the country's economy was soon straitjacketed by a "socialist pattern of society."

While laws were passed that overrode Hindu customs ( including, it must be said, retrogressive ones such as caste), Nehru took care to exclude the Muslims and other minority groups from such legislation, thus retaining the separatist mindset which had resulted in the creation of the "Muslim" state of Pakistan out of "Hindu" India.

As a consequence of carrying forward policies that saw the Hindus as a threat and therefore sought to place them on a level below those of the minorities in India, while Hindu temples are subject to state control, churches, mosques and other minority houses of worship remain free. Several ancient temples are now administered by atheists or other non-Hindus in states across the country, and the donations that pour into them from Hindu devotees are sequestered by the state. In education, while Hindu managements face severe restrictions and controls, managements that are Christian or Muslim escape almost all such state-mandated limitations on their freedom.

Since Sonia Gandhi took over the governance of India in 2004 and appointed a prime minister from a minority faith, there has been an explicit bias in policy favoring minority groups at the expense of the Hindu majority, and a conscious effort to sideline officials seen as "practicing Hindus" -- those who regularly visit temples -- on the grounds that they are "Hindu fanatics."


By contrast, almost none of the numerous bomb explosions that have taken place in Congress-ruled cities across India -- such as Mumbai, Delhi and Hyderabad -- have been traced to the perpetrators, because of an informal prohibition against "stereotyping" that prevents the police from intensive investigations in the mainly Muslim localities where the perpetrators are believed to be sheltering.

Such "partial" secularism, in which only Hindus are expected to be secular while Muslims and other minorities remain free to practice exclusionary practices, has led to a Hindu backlash across India. This found its first major expression in the Dec. 23 verdict of the electorate of Gujarat state, who re-elected the state's chief minister, Narendra Modi, despite a well-funded rebellion within the ranks of his own party, the Bharatiya Janata Party, as well as the enmity of almost the entire television and print media.

The media correctly see him as posing a possibly fatal challenge to the Nehruvian policies that were embraced by the first BJP prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who was as deferential toward Sonia Gandhi's interests as members of her own Congress Party had been in the past. Modi thus challenges not only Sonia Gandhi but the Vajpayee cohort in his own party, who have for decades enjoyed a cozy and lucrative relationship with the Nehrus.

Despite occasional public posturing, in practice, the present crop of BJP leaders has been content to share in the spoils of the present Nehruvian state system. All, that is, except Narendra Modi, who defied his party leadership in making Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh -- both of whom, being Christian and Sikh respectively, belong to minority groups -- the target of his verbal barbs, despite strictures from the Sonia-friendly Election Commission.

Wresting Gujarat from this potent challenger was crucial to the continued salience of Nehruism, but the strength of the Hindu backlash against policies that penalize the majority community ensured a handsome win. The results have led to apprehension throughout the Nehruvian establishment, including almost the whole of the English-language media, that "Moditva" may spread to other states.

It may even within the next five years lead to a takeover of the central government by the Gujarat chief minister, who comes from near the bottom of the Hindu caste ladder, but who has emerged as the favorite of tens of millions of Hindus irrespective of caste, who seek parity with the minorities in running their houses of worship or educational and other institutions.

As Malaysia has shown, the advent of globalization and the demonstrated ability of Hindus to compete with the rest of the world have led to a renewal of confidence in a community of 840 million that has been kept at the margins for more than a millennium. The message of Gujarat is that the cry for parity by the Hindu community in India has become a political wave that could upset the Nehruvian system of partial secularism that has prevailed in India since 1947. Dec. 23, 2007 is a genuine turning point in the politics of the world's largest democracy.

--

(Professor M.D. Nalapat is vice-chair of the Manipal Advanced Research Group, UNESCO Peace Chair, and professor of geopolitics at Manipal University. ©Copyright M.D. Nalapat.) Top News

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Postby indygill » 26 Dec 2007 23:53

Shiv said
Mullahs and Muslims are being led up a dangerous path by "Hindu seculars" and being made to believe that the fault is all with extremist Hindu groups and that Islam is innocent.


Shiv
are you sure it is not the other way around? One cannot underestimate the “intellectâ€

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Postby Multatuli » 26 Dec 2007 23:59

JCageji you should have highlighted the following bit too :

The media correctly see him as posing a possibly fatal challenge to the Nehruvian policies that were embraced by the first BJP prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who was as deferential toward Sonia Gandhi's interests as members of her own Congress Party had been in the past. Modi thus challenges not only Sonia Gandhi but the Vajpayee cohort in his own party, who have for decades enjoyed a cozy and lucrative relationship with the Nehrus.

Despite occasional public posturing, in practice, the present crop of BJP leaders has been content to share in the spoils of the present Nehruvian state system.


Both Vajpayee and Advani may have done important work in the past ( a long, long time ago ), however they are now only concerned with power for themself, they treat BJP as an extension of themself. What Sanjay Chaudhury said about the RSS seems to hold for the BJP as well, Vajpayee and Advani are jealous of competent people within the party.

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Postby JCage » 27 Dec 2007 00:43

Multi,

I didnt because frankly, I know little of what goes on within the BJP or not. I havent been a very ardent supporter/ follower of the BJP to be honest, so I wouldnt know the details. But it seems very unlikely that Advani is Nehruvian..he was quite frank @ one time, though I could be wrong. Vajpayee, possibly..and who are the Vajpayee cohort? Dunno..

But what I have highlighted, are the points with which I agree because I know them to be true, by having verified them by own data and conclusions or personal experience.

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Postby eklavya » 27 Dec 2007 01:08

Apologies for asking a dumb question, but what does "dhimmi(s)" stand for? Could not find it in the list of acronyms. Many thanks in advance.

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Postby vsudhir » 27 Dec 2007 02:24

eklavya wrote:Apologies for asking a dumb question, but what does "dhimmi(s)" stand for? Could not find it in the list of acronyms. Many thanks in advance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude

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Postby Sumeet » 27 Dec 2007 02:37

JC & Multatuli with reference to your recent most posts you may want to look at these excerpts from the dhimmi media credits to dhimmi Rajdeep Sardesai:

Modi Mandate: Myth and Reality

But if the secularists have misread the Modi phenomenon, so too have his cheerleaders. To project him as a future prime minister in waiting is equally mistaken. The claim that Modi represents a new India, yearning to break free from feudal snobbery and liberal hypocrisies, is to confuse a Gujarat state election verdict with a national mandate.



Ironically, Modi's position today is not too different from the original Hindutva posterboy, L K Advani, a decade ago. Then, it was Advani who was being showcased as the ideological mascot of a new India, as a leader who would finally rid the country of its soft underbelly, a politician who would challenge the old Nehruvian order. And yet, when it came to the crunch, it was the BJP's saffron Nehruvian, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who was the most acceptable prime ministerial candidate to the ruling coalition. Quite clearly, Advani's national ambitions have remained trapped for years under the debris of the Babri Masjid demolition just as Modi has been haunted by the ghosts of post-Godhra. It has required Mr Advani to virtually re-invent himself as a less ideological, and more consensual politician before he could be formally anointed as a potential prime ministerial candidate of a national alliance.

Modi too, will need to re-invent himself if he is to be seen as more than just a Gujarat regional satrap. The challenge is to do so without losing his iconic Moditva branding that is his original USP. Modi's predicament was revealed when in a recent television debate show, the BJP's Shahnawaz Hussain was asked if he would now invite Modi to campaign for him in Bihar. Desperately trying to avoid a response, Hussain finally sheepishly said, "We may not need Narendrabhai, when we have our own Modi, (Sushil Modi) in the state!" Narendrabhai may have captured the mind of Gujarat; winning the soul of India is a different matter altogether.
Last edited by Sumeet on 27 Dec 2007 02:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby eklavya » 27 Dec 2007 02:38

vsudhir wrote:
eklavya wrote:Apologies for asking a dumb question, but what does "dhimmi(s)" stand for? Could not find it in the list of acronyms. Many thanks in advance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude


Many thanks. Very helpful.

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Postby Sumeet » 27 Dec 2007 02:54

dhimmi media takes it as an absolute fact that only way to move forward on a national platform in india is to either dilute your principles with Nehruvian secularism or to actually follow it in totality.

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Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2007 04:57

indygill wrote:Shiv said
Mullahs and Muslims are being led up a dangerous path by "Hindu seculars" and being made to believe that the fault is all with extremist Hindu groups and that Islam is innocent.


Shiv
are you sure it is not the other way around? One cannot underestimate the “intellectâ€

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Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2007 05:05

Sumeet wrote:dhimmi media takes it as an absolute fact that only way to move forward on a national platform in india is to either dilute your principles with Nehruvian secularism or to actually follow it in totality.


Sumeet it doesn't have to be black and white. It can be grey.

How about Hudaibiya as a tactic? Join the "Secular" parties but spread your views. See how people like Vijay Mallya - out and out capitalist, wears beard, tilak and mala and goes about with JD (who have now shot themselves in the foot)

Technically Rajdeep Sardesai is correct and he is not at risk of putting foot in mouth like Prafool.

Why look for a BJP victory.? You have to accept their faults as well as their strengths. If you are going to accept their faults, why not someone else's faults? If you are really in the majority, the victory of any party should be your victory don't you think?

How can 80% of the population depend on one iffy party for its voice? That is absurd.

Vijay Mallya
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Postby ramana » 27 Dec 2007 05:31

A personal experience from massa land. A suggestion was made that we should explore giving the presentation "Understanding Pakistan" at a local cultural center as it would have a good and erudite crowd. I wasnt too sure for I had misgivings about those in charge. When asked for permission to give the presentation the person in charge said that talk can objectively be given by and American or an Englishman. And he was a retired IA guy. He was sure that an Indian and a Hindu couldnt speak open Pakistan objectively. Dhimmi or Maha dhimmi!

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Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2007 05:45

ramana wrote:A personal experience from massa land. A suggestion was made that we should explore giving the presentation "Understanding Pakistan" at a local cultural center as it would have a good and erudite crowd. I wasnt too sure for I had misgivings about those in charge. When asked for permission to give the presentation the person in charge said that talk can objectively be given by and American or an Englishman. And he was a retired IA guy. He was sure that an Indian and a Hindu couldnt speak open Pakistan objectively. Dhimmi or Maha dhimmi!


An excellent example ramana. I have seen a lot of this when I have quoted from my Pakistan ebook in HISI groups.

But I have found a useful tactic to employ.

The HISI/dhimmi/secular is open to the idea of "individual opinion" and "many viewpoints"

I "sell" my views stated in my "Pakistan Failed State" ebook as "a review of the literature and news reports on Pakistan" which is what it is. I have said that in the introduction itself to thwart exactly the sort of criticism you speak of. It is offered as nothing more and nothing less, and need not be taken as the final view.

The only serious criticism I faced for using this tactic is that someone said that I have filtered out only articles that suit my own viewpoint. :lol: You would not expect me, of all people to be tripped up by such a question would you?

My reply is "Yes, I may have filtered articles that suit my viewpoint. But you dear critic are welcome to get off your backside, dig up articles that suit your viewpoint and publish any number of books, Until that time, you only have mine to go by.."

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Postby Supratik » 27 Dec 2007 06:45

Shiv,

Wouldn't it be a better idea to find out how the production of more HISI's can be stopped instead of going through the ardous task of trying to convert already existing HISI's? We talk of the Nehruvian elite and Macaulites. How are they being produced? Is it education or media or social conditioning?

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Postby Rye » 27 Dec 2007 07:01

The HISI's also rule academia and also rule the groups that write textbooks that feed Indians -- the current administration of HISIs have already "removed all the saffron poison" from textbooks that were added by the previous administration of "hindu fascists". So that route will just cause textbooks to be rewritten every few years with every change in government and the ultimate loser will be the Indian student.

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Postby satyarthi » 27 Dec 2007 07:42

Shiv,

Thomas Kuhn's major work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", which gave rise to the phrase, "paradigm shift", is relevant here.

One result is, that is it is useless to try to convert old fogey's. Even when new profound ideas stare them in their faces, oldies' paradigms remain pretty much unchanged with relatively minor modifications. And those paradigms die only with them. Scientific revolutions proceed by a completely new paradigm championed by the "new blood" which "replaces" the old believers, not by "converting" the old believers.

(from: http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/Kuhn.html)
"When an individual or group first produces a synthesis able to attract most of the next generation's practitioners, the older schools gradually disappear"

IMHO it is futile to try to convert an "old" mind which is set. Success rate will not be zero, but won't be sufficiently high, and even then old dhimmi sanskaras can always rear their head.

It is of utmost importance to create new minds. Battle is actually for the young mind, not the fossilized old mind. Marxists have understood this and have developed a stranglehold on the media and the education. But that hold won't weaken much by trying to convert these manipulators. Its like the story where someone was asked to make a line shorter without erasing any part of it. The solution was to draw a longer line next to it.

Modi's method has worked in that direction. He commands tremendous support amongst the youth. And he has created a bigger line without bothering with the existing line manufactured by the hostile media and intelligensia.

From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Struct ... evolutions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962)

In The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (SSR) (1962) Kuhn argued that science does not progress via a linear accumulation of new knowledge, but undergoes periodic revolutions, also called "paradigm shifts" (although he did not coin the phrase)[2], in which the nature of scientific inquiry within a particular field is abruptly transformed. In general, science is broken up into three distinct stages. Prescience, which lacks a central paradigm, comes first. This is followed by "normal science", when scientists attempt to enlarge the central paradigm by "puzzle-solving". Thus, the failure of a result to conform to the paradigm is seen not as refuting the paradigm, but as the mistake of the researcher, contra Popper's refutability criterion. As anomalous results build up, science reaches a crisis, at which point a new paradigm, which subsumes the old results along with the anomalous results into one framework, is accepted. This is termed revolutionary science. In SSR, Kuhn also argues that rival paradigms are incommensurable—that is, it is not possible to understand one paradigm through the conceptual framework and terminology of another rival paradigm. For many critics, this thesis seemed to entail that theory choice is fundamentally irrational: if rival theories cannot be directly compared, then one cannot make a rational choice as to which one is better.
Last edited by satyarthi on 27 Dec 2007 07:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2007 07:51

satyarthi wrote:Shiv,

Thomas Kuhn's major work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", which gave rise to the phrase, "paradigm shift", is relevant here.

One result is, that is it is useless to try to convert old fogey's. Even when new profound ideas stare them in their faces, oldies' paradigms remain pretty much unchanged with relatively minor modifications.


This is as true for the current crop in the BJP, RSS and much current "Hindu thought" as it is for the HISI, the secularists etc.

Modi may be an exception, but his success is subject to the objections that rajdeep Sardesai points out.

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Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2007 08:00

Supratik wrote:Shiv,

Wouldn't it be a better idea to find out how the production of more HISI's can be stopped instead of going through the ardous task of trying to convert already existing HISI's? We talk of the Nehruvian elite and Macaulites. How are they being produced? Is it education or media or social conditioning?


All serious Indian education is in English. In my lifetime I have seen how, in popular Indian images (Bollywood) the English accented Hindi speaker was a firangi villain in the 1950s and 60s. The American accented miniskirt wearing Hindi speaker with Indian values is now the heroine.

There is a massive shift towards English and those who are in are finding jobs. Those who are out are finding it more difficult.

To my mind the question is how big a revolution can you start? Check which is the bigger revolution you want.

Should you try and roll back all English at a time when it is dominating and fight HISI as well as the dominant Anglosphere, or should you merely utilize English for your own ends? What the Chinese did with their personal appearance, and how the Japanese bent English to suit themselves may hold a lesson for us.

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Postby satyarthi » 27 Dec 2007 08:45

shiv wrote:
satyarthi wrote:Shiv,

Thomas Kuhn's major work "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", which gave rise to the phrase, "paradigm shift", is relevant here.

One result is, that is it is useless to try to convert old fogey's. Even when new profound ideas stare them in their faces, oldies' paradigms remain pretty much unchanged with relatively minor modifications.


This is as true for the current crop in the BJP, RSS and much current "Hindu thought" as it is for the HISI, the secularists etc.

Modi may be an exception, but his success is subject to the objections that rajdeep Sardesai points out.

This is one reason I am more optimistic about Modi. RSS has lost a lot of touch with the young. Modi may be able to bring a paradigm-shift even within the "parivar", who knows. One fact is that he has captured the youth's mindscape in Gujarat at least.

To deal with an adversary, one can use sAma, dAma, danDa, bheda as needed. But a lopsided application of "sAma" without any hint of "danDa" is not going to be too fruitful. India has been practicing "sAma" since the sultanate days now, which is popularly called dhimmi behavior here. Results have been barely enough to sustain the civilization in a subsistence mode. Indian civilization is hungrier now. It needs more than subsistence.

Application of "danDa" or force, to stun or discredit the old set mentality (which can't be converetd easily), by rhetorical or intellectual means, should be an important part of the arsenal. While "conversion" is most fruitful when directed towards the youth.

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Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2007 13:46

satyarthi wrote:
Application of "danDa" or force, to stun or discredit the old set mentality (which can't be converetd easily), by rhetorical or intellectual means, should be an important part of the arsenal. While "conversion" is most fruitful when directed towards the youth.


Satyarthi the application of danda has already started. Babri Masjid and the post Godhra retaliation were both examples of that.

But I would like to see better progress in the political/media arena and resort to danda only when unavoidable.

I believe danda is inevitable, given the current set up. Every islamist terror attack followed by Secular/HISI cursing Hindus as being extremists will lead to a stage when Hindus, whose name is already in the dirt will not care and will just hit back. I think I have said that time and again. I would like to try and explore and see if there is any space that can be opened up for progress before the Hindu majority goes wild and imposes their order by force.

I see the application of danda as a gross failure of the ruling HISI class in bringing Hindu grievances into the arena of debate.

I would really like to see other methods work. But Hindus are no longer likely to occupy a place betwen the twin prongs of "Shut up and don't make demands or we will declare you fundamentalists"

Once Hindu have been declared fundamentalists for long enough they will recall that secularism and tolerance are both alien, non Hindu words and can be thrown away altogether.

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Postby amit » 27 Dec 2007 14:41

satyarthi wrote: This is one reason I am more optimistic about Modi. RSS has lost a lot of touch with the young. Modi may be able to bring a paradigm-shift even within the "parivar", who knows. One fact is that he has captured the youth's mindscape in Gujarat at least.

To deal with an adversary, one can use sAma, dAma, danDa, bheda as needed. But a lopsided application of "sAma" without any hint of "danDa" is not going to be too fruitful. India has been practicing "sAma" since the sultanate days now, which is popularly called dhimmi behavior here. Results have been barely enough to sustain the civilization in a subsistence mode. Indian civilization is hungrier now. It needs more than subsistence.

Application of "danDa" or force, to stun or discredit the old set mentality (which can't be converetd easily), by rhetorical or intellectual means, should be an important part of the arsenal. While "conversion" is most fruitful when directed towards the youth.



Satyarthi,

If I may add to your very interesting perspective.

The youth in India, I mean those born on and after 1980 are going to change the rules of the game totally. And while Modi and what he represents in terms of self-pride will play a very important role, the movement will be much bigger in scope.

This is a generation, which not only does not carry any Dhimmi baggage; it is a generation, which is looking for expressions of self-pride – the celebration of their Indian ness if you will. The Indian ness may not be in just the strict Sanatan Dharma type but more a potpourri of the Hindu ethos mixed and matched with contempory ideas – a lot of which may be a bit crash for old timers. My best analogy to describe it would be cultural equivalent of Hinglish (a combination of Hindi and English, the lingua franca of the yuppie set).

But the important point is whatever this is going to turn out to be, there will be no apologetical excuse me were are like that onlee attitude. It will be a take it or take a hike attitude.

I feel that’s going to be a start to the final burial of the dhimmitude ingrained in our ethos for so many generations. Remember the 1980s plus brigade will be the second and in some cases the third generation of Indians born into freedom.

Since the Sultanate days this is the first time Mother India is witnessing its children being born of parents who were in their turn born free. Freedom, especially the chaotic cacophony that is prevalent in India is a good healer for generations of bruises.

I’m very optimistic about the future. The Hindu way has the power and wherewithal to withstand every blow directed against it since it’s not a monolith entity. And when the Hindu learns to land a few blows on its own then all the monolith revealed religions will be running for cover.

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Postby vsudhir » 27 Dec 2007 15:22

Amit,
I feel that’s going to be a start to the final burial of the dhimmitude ingrained in our ethos for so many generations. Remember the 1980s plus brigade will be the second and in some cases the third generation of Indians born into freedom.

Since the Sultanate days this is the first time Mother India is witnessing its children being born of parents who were in their turn born free. Freedom, especially the chaotic cacophony that is prevalent in India is a good healer for generations of bruises.

I’m very optimistic about the future. The Hindu way has the power and wherewithal to withstand every blow directed against it since it’s not a monolith entity. And when the Hindu learns to land a few blows on its own then all the monolith revealed religions will be running for cover.


Hearteningly well said. Hallelujah!

Also, a variety of tech-economic factors have come into play for this generation as well - the Web, telecom, alternative media, globalisation, booming economic growth story+ pvt enterprise etc. Opportunities and alternatives exist to the shibboleths and bromides of yesterday.

No more holy cows - no more is GOI a mai-baap, no more is questioning sickularism as practised in India taboo or even terribly uncool. No longer do Nehruvian dhimmis control all access to edu, info, jobs and the like. Their failures steadily take a toll on their credibility. Their monopoly power has ended forever.

Time is on *our* side. Half of India's popn is below 25, I read somewhere.

To paraphrase JE Menon, let us be thankful to be alive and Indian in these historic times.....

Jai Hind.

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Postby SSridhar » 27 Dec 2007 16:20

Why doesn't India have a National Commission for Majorities (like Natl. Comm. for Minorities) ? Who would take care of the situation where the majority rights are trampled or laws are enacted harmful to majority stakeholder's interests or even listen to the plight of the majority ?

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Postby indygill » 27 Dec 2007 20:49

RSS has lost a lot of touch with the young


RSS was founded in 1925. Ground realities, needs and aspirations were very different at that time. What they basically need is a youth wing that could relate to todays realities, needs and aspirations. They need to learn from organizations like YMCA etc. In short need to adapt more to needs of young and be more proactive.

Why doesn't India have a National Commission for Majorities (like Natl. Comm. for Minorities) ?


Well as per the eastablished Indian institutions and system, especially according to Nehruvism “Majoritism leads to fascismâ€

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Postby eklavya » 28 Dec 2007 00:29

SSridhar wrote:Why doesn't India have a National Commission for Majorities (like Natl. Comm. for Minorities) ? Who would take care of the situation where the majority rights are trampled or laws are enacted harmful to majority stakeholder's interests or even listen to the plight of the majority ?


Sridhar, is there a model for such a body in another democractic system that you have in mind?

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Postby putnanja » 28 Dec 2007 02:28

Hindutva and radical Islam: Where the twain do meet - Arun Shourie

[quote]Your Hindutva is no different from Islamic fundamentalism’ — a fashionable statement these days, one that immediately establishes the person’s secular credentials. It is, of course, false, as we shall see in a moment. But there is a grain of potential truth in it — something that does not put Hinduism at par with Islam, but one that should, instead, serve as a warning to all who keep pushing Hindus around. That grain is the fact that every tradition has in it, every set of scriptures has in it enough to justify extreme, even violent reaction. From the very same Gita from which Gandhiji derived non-violence and satyagraha, Lokmanya Tilak constructed the case for ferocious response, not excluding violence. From the very same Gita from which Gandhiji derived his ‘true law’, shatham pratyapi satyam, ‘Truth even to the wicked’, the Lokmanya derived his famous maxim, shatham prati shaathyam, ‘Wickedness to the wicked.’

In the great work, Gita Rahasya, that he wrote in the Mandalay prison, the Lokmanya invokes Sri Samartha, ‘Meet boldness with boldness; impertinence by impertinence must be met; villainy by villainy must be met.’ Large-heartedness towards those who are grasping? Forgiveness towards those who are cruel? ‘Even Prahlada, that highest of devotees of the Blessed Lord,’ the Lokmanya recalls, has said, ‘Therefore, my friend, wise men have everywhere mentioned exceptions to the principle of forgiveness.’ True, the ordinary rule is that one must not cause harm to others by doing such actions as, if done to oneself, would be harmful. But, the Mahabharata, Tilak says, ‘has made it clear that this rule should not be followed in a society, where there do not exist persons who follow the other religious principle, namely, others should not cause harm to us, which is the corollary from this first principle.’ The counsel of ‘equability’ of the Gita, he says, is bound up with two individuals; that is, it implies reciprocity. ‘Therefore, just as the principle of non-violence is not violated by killing an evil-doer, so also the principle of self-identification [of seeing the same, Eternal Self in all] or of non-enmity, which is observed by saints, is in no way affected by giving condign punishment to evil-doers.’ Does the Supreme Being not Himself declare that He takes incarnations from time to time to protect dharma and destroy evil-doers? Indeed, the one who hesitates to take the retaliatory action that is necessary assists the evil to do their work. ‘And the summary of the entire teaching of the Gita is that: even the most horrible warfare which may be carried on in these circumstances, with an equable frame of mind, is righteous and meritorious.’

Tilak invokes the advice of Bhisma, and then of Yudhisthira, ‘Religion and morality consist in behaving towards others in the same way as they behave towards us; one must behave deceitfully towards deceitful persons, and in a saintly way towards saintly persons.’ Of course, act in a saintly way in the first instance, the Lokmanya counsels. Try to dissuade the evil-doer through persuasion. ‘But if the evilness of the evil-doers is not circumvented by such saintly actions, or, if the counsel of peacefulness and propriety is not acceptable to such evil-doers, then according to the principle kantakenaiva kantakam (that is, “take out a thorn by a thornâ€

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Postby Rishirishi » 28 Dec 2007 03:17

This is one reason I am more optimistic about Modi. RSS has lost a lot of touch with the young. Modi may be able to bring a paradigm-shift even within the "parivar", who knows. One fact is that he has captured the youth's mindscape in Gujarat at least


I remember what the 80's was like. Ambies, no coke, no STD, no readymade cloths, 1 TV chennel in Black and White. Only the upper level of business community had remote chances to travel abroad or even have cars. Top grade IIT graduates, desperately seeking teaching jobs. India was the land of the holy cows and pothead youngsters went there to search for harmony.

In those times, the Gandhi family had a virtual grip on the psyche of the nation. People did not believe that anyone else was fit to lead the country and people did not think that there were any alternative to Nehruvian dogmatic vision. of "self reliance", Lisence raj and the "Hindu only secularism"

Today things have changed. There are a whole range of "free" TV chennels that dare to bordcast communal sensitive issues. The BJP came to power, on Babri Masjid, After the blasts in Mumbai. Shiv Sena ruled,. But for short term gains thease parties went "semi secular" mismanaged affairs.
What Modi has done is simple. He has practically demonstrated will to tackle Islamic fundamentalism and managed the government well. This is what the puclic wants and this is why Modhi is in Power.

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Postby shiv » 28 Dec 2007 03:57

Rishirishi wrote: This is what the puclic wants and this is why Modhi is in Power.


Not to forget the fact that Modi, as an "OBC" cannot be pulled down in international and national media as "Brahmin-Bania nexus".

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Postby ShauryaT » 28 Dec 2007 04:12

Doc, Reading the above article from Shourie, reminded me of you. You have the same gift of articulating ideas and convey it to a mass audience. You should publish your works on Islamism to a wider audience.

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Postby vsudhir » 28 Dec 2007 04:42

Tarun Vijay : Saffron surge (TOI)

Doc may disapprove of the tone and tenor of Tarun's articles (too direct and self-goal types etc). Hard to argue with his logic. admittedly.

But I'm happy to see word getting out. Folk getting direct about their fears and concerns. Finding space in widely read news-space. Sometimes it pays to preach to the choir, keeps the goal within reach of hope, keeps motivation up, 'lest we forget' and all that.

And who knows that class VII-XII schoolboy reading it accidentally may save himself yrs of psec delusions. Worth every soul saved, methinx (to borrow from the missionary playbook).

JMTs and all that.
Jai Maharashtra

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Postby Sumeet » 28 Dec 2007 05:11

ShauryaT wrote:Doc, Reading the above article from Shourie, reminded me of you. You have the same gift of articulating ideas and convey it to a mass audience. You should publish your works on Islamism to a wider audience.


In my opinion wiki Islam will be a good beginning. you will get a wider audience.

You can convert it into E-books or publish them in hard copies later.

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Postby shiv » 28 Dec 2007 07:18

ShauryaT wrote:Doc, Reading the above article from Shourie, reminded me of you. You have the same gift of articulating ideas and convey it to a mass audience. You should publish your works on Islamism to a wider audience.


Thank you Shaurya, I will. But I will take my time and make a substantial work - unlike my Pakbook which I did in a hurry because I thought timely spread of info was more important that publisihng glory.

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Postby satyarthi » 28 Dec 2007 09:26

shiv wrote:I see the application of danda as a gross failure of the ruling HISI class in bringing Hindu grievances into the arena of debate.

I would really like to see other methods work. But Hindus are no longer likely to occupy a place betwen the twin prongs of "Shut up and don't make demands or we will declare you fundamentalists"

Once Hindu have been declared fundamentalists for long enough they will recall that secularism and tolerance are both alien, non Hindu words and can be thrown away altogether.

Shiv,

A similar situation with many parallels exists between the Indological research gang and hindus. Academics like infamous Witzel of Harvard, held/hold a vice like grip on indological academic appointments and journal publications. But the publication of "Wendy's child syndrome" by Rajiv Malhotra and many such articles, were rhetorical/intellectual applications of "danDa" by outsiders, using a medium not in control of the indologists, viz. the internet. It was clear that from within the system, such "truths" couldn't have been aired. They would have been censored and/or ridiculed and dismissed. To see the light of the day they had to be aired in a medium not in control of the indologist gang. And by their sharp adversarial tone backed by good research, they have caused a great change.

These publications didn't "convert" the old fogeys of the indological establishment. They couldn't have. But they gave voice to a large disenchanted hindu population. The spread of the "anti-indological" sentiment amongst the Indian diaspora was rather startling. Since then many more such publications have appeared. In the California-textbook controversy, the hindu community despite not achieving all its goals, has managed to spread awareness to a huge mass of Indians. It is no more taboo in US universities for 2nd gen Indian students to quote from such non-mainline publications in debates.

So, this application of "danDa" has energized the supporter constituency, given its youngsters enough ammunition to defend themselves in debates, and managed to discredit and stun the old indologist gang. It is not possible nowadays for an indologist to start denigrating hinduism and India without worrying about any reprisals.

It is also not difficult to see parallels between this and L' affaire Modi.

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Postby harbans » 28 Dec 2007 13:15

Double post. Self deleted.
Last edited by harbans on 28 Dec 2007 13:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby harbans » 28 Dec 2007 13:16

[i]One cannot underestimate the “intellectâ€


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