Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 4

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 27 Jan 2008 07:31

shyam wrote:
Tamang wrote:Jamaat-e-Islami protests Tricolour at madrassas

Bhopal: The Jamaat-e-Islami in Madhya Pradesh may object to hoisting the national flag at madrassas, but many other Muslim bodies and intellectuals see no problem in such a move.


Isn't it possible to seek derecognition (or ban) of jamaat-e-islami for insulting national flag?


Be dharmic Shyam dharmic!! :)

"Derecognition" of JeI for objecting is like derecognizing Shaurya for objecting to the Indian constitution.

People are allowed opinions, but need to be shown the right path,. "De recognizing them" does not make them go away, or make their thoughts disappear"

The irony is that Islam, and Christianity in some places were the best at making thoughts disappear. Eliminate the people who have thoughts that you don't like and the thoughts themselves wil disappear.

Our problem is that our dharma does not aloow us to eliminate those people whose thoughts we dislike - and that is a weakness. Even in our lifetimes we have seen how the Muslims of India - after ganging up to create the state of Pakistan, virtually eliminated all non Muslims from the areas that constitute Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Persecution and discrimination of non Muslims in Muslim dominated areas is practised as legal and normal according to Islam in every part of the world. For exactly the same reason, Islamists expect that kind of treatment when they do not dominate. that is also why the idea of Pakistan came up - a set of Muslims of India thought that they would be persecuted. The Quran and Islamic traditions have plenty of stories to say how Muslims are persecuted by non Muslims and how Muslims should fight back and eliminate those who are non Muslims to stop that persecution. This is the viewpoint that is taught to normal "moderate" Muslims as well because that is what islam says.

Islam has NO mechanism for dealing with moderate and tolerant non Muslims because Islam does not recognize non Muslims as being anything but intolerant monsters. This is definitely the mindset of a lot of Muslims including those in India.

Muslims who live in India, among Hindus who accept other religions must learn to understand that being non Muslim does not mean being a monster. It is the responsibility of the Indian ulema to teach Indian Muslims that. If Indian ulema cannot change and continue to preach that non Muslim means enemy we have to come up with a mechanism to punish them. Such teaching is incompatible with a tolerant pluralist India.

For us in India there is no alternative.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 27 Jan 2008 07:39



The question I would like to put to Indian Muslims is why Mohammad and the Quran are anti-Jew and how many more centuries do they propose to continue to be this way.

It is typical of Islam to be as absurd and intolerant as they like and hide behind the Quran, and then protest violently if anyone else appears intolerant.

Do Muslims understand that this is how they are seen by people? If they do not, don't you think it is high time somebody told them? It is misplaced Indian secularism that prevents Hindus from telling the truth? Surely untruth is adharmic and must be avoided. Or is it a feeling that Muslims wil riot or opt for Pakistan that there is no plain speaking?

G Subramaniam
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 17:58

Kerala muslims kill cow inside hindu temple

Postby G Subramaniam » 27 Jan 2008 07:47

url

Kottarakkara: Jihadi’s here challenged the Hindu Society by Slaughtering Cow in premises of famous Achan Kovil Sree Dharma Sastha Temple.

This outrageous incident happened in the holy period of Mandalam festivals in the Temple for Lord Ayyapa.

The Devaswom official who controls the Temples acts as if nothing has been happened and has not taken any action to file any complaint with the Police.

Hindu Organisations and Devotees in the area decided to launch strong protests until the culprits are arrested

vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Postby vsudhir » 27 Jan 2008 08:08

shiv wrote:Do Muslims understand that this is how they are seen by people? If they do not, don't you think it is high time somebody told them? It is misplaced Indian secularism that prevents Hindus from telling the truth? Surely untruth is adharmic and must be avoided. Or is it a feeling that Muslims wil riot or opt for Pakistan that there is no plain speaking?


Muslims will continue to act as they have for as long as they can get away with it. IMHO, of course.

As for opting for Pakistan, its not as if they will move to TSP. They may carve out one or more TSPs in what is now India. And for dharmic folk who disdain community-wide conflagrations, that neo-partition will happen one way or the other, regardless of what the dharmics think.

I got rather cold vibes when I mooted this partition possibility a while back. Understandably so, perhaps.

JMTs etc onlee.
/Have a nice day all.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9823
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Postby sum » 27 Jan 2008 08:28

The IUML however appreciated and thanked the Government for declining the French proposal to allow that country's award to be conferred upon Taslima Nasreen during the French President's visit to India.

The reason the government gave for not allowing French prez to honour Taslima was that there could be security problems at the venue...
Pray,how can there be security problems in a place protected by the SPG and French Intel and what sort of cr@p reason is that??? :roll: :roll:
The bending over backwards of this govt is turning legendary....

G Subramaniam
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 17:58

Islamic demographics update from NFHS-3

Postby G Subramaniam » 27 Jan 2008 09:33

NFHS = National Family Health Survey

NFHS-1 was done in 1992, NHFS-2 was done in 1999 and NFHS-3 was done in 2004

Muslim vs Hindu Fertility

NFHS-1, 4.4 vs 3.3

NFHS-2, 3.6 vs 2.8

NFHS-3, 3.1 vs 2.7


In terms of current births, in the 0-6 age group, muslims are 16% by birth
and with the current trends, it appears that by the time this cohort reaches reproductive age, the fertility differenc will have converged

However, per the 2001 census, in the 0-6 age group, muslims are 33% by birth in Kerala and west bengal and 44% in Assam

Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Islamic demographics update from NFHS-3

Postby Johann » 27 Jan 2008 09:58

G Subramaniam wrote:NFHS = National Family Health Survey

NFHS-1 was done in 1992, NHFS-2 was done in 1999 and NFHS-3 was done in 2004

Muslim vs Hindu Fertility

NFHS-1, 4.4 vs 3.3

NFHS-2, 3.6 vs 2.8

NFHS-3, 3.1 vs 2.7


In terms of current births, in the 0-6 age group, muslims are 16% by birth
and with the current trends, it appears that by the time this cohort reaches reproductive age, the fertility differenc will have converged


I will repeat what I've said many times - consumerism is a powerful force.

In demographic terms it is better to have a woman studying for longer and going on to work rather than yanked out of school early and turned in to a baby factory. If it takes burkhas to make that happen, then so be it.

skganji
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 01 Dec 2007 01:21
Location: U.SA/India.

Postby skganji » 27 Jan 2008 12:13

shiv wrote:


The question I would like to put to Indian Muslims is why Mohammad and the Quran are anti-Jew and how many more centuries do they propose to continue to be this way.

It is typical of Islam to be as absurd and intolerant as they like and hide behind the Quran, and then protest violently if anyone else appears intolerant.

Do Muslims understand that this is how they are seen by people? If they do not, don't you think it is high time somebody told them? It is misplaced Indian secularism that prevents Hindus from telling the truth? Surely untruth is adharmic and must be avoided. Or is it a feeling that Muslims wil riot or opt for Pakistan that there is no plain speaking?


Indian Secularism is a curse to the Hindus of India. This needs to be understood by every Hindu in India to stop the menace of Radical Islam and the dangers it has brought to Hindus in India and it will bring to India .
Hindu unity is required to take strong political steps to stop Radical Islam from taking control over India and eliminating the tolerant Hindu faith with Intolerant Islamic Faith...Foolish politicians cannot see the truth as they are interested in staying in power for their selfish interests.. Yes, Hindus were crushed, threatned, bullied and humiliated for speaking truth except for people like Modi and Thackery.

G Subramaniam
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 17:58

Kerala CPI-M feels heat from islamist NDF

Postby G Subramaniam » 28 Jan 2008 01:12

http://www.indianexpress.com/india-news/full_story.php?content_id=89452

In Kerala bastion, CPM fights hardline Muslim violence

RAJEEV P I


Posted online: Sunday, March 12, 2006 at 0218 hours IST



KOCHI, MARCH 11: In New Delhi, the CPM leadership has been at pains to distance itself from the likes of Yakoob Qureishi. In its Kerala bastion, where it is expected to win elections in a month, CPM leaders are at the receiving end of a violent, even murderous, campaign by an extremist Islamic group.

The National Democratic Front, a 50,000-strong shadowy outfit—it claims 2 lakh supporters—which sprung up after the Babri Masjid demolition, has for the time being dumped traditional enemy RSS and turned on the CPM instead.

One reason for this is that slowly but surely, the NDF is infiltrating the Muslim League, a member of the ruling Congress-led coalition hardening its battlelines with the CPM.



Consider these:

• Last week, four NDF men were arrested for brutally assaulting prominent CITU leader Bapputty—he was knifed in several places—in Malappuram’s Tirur. This is where the CPM is spreading its base taking on the Muslim League.

• Days earlier, just a couple of hours away in Kannur, the CPM’s party office and the premises of its mouthpiece Deshabhimani were attacked and vandalised. The mob tried to pass itself off as Muslim League but all the 71 rounded up by the police were from NDF.

• Around the same time, police caught three men in connection with two time bombs that went off in crowded Kozhikode bus stations. Both were from NDF. The bombs, incidentally, exploded after the District Collectorate got a call that the explosions were a warning for an impending “revengeâ€

Apu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 34
Joined: 10 May 2006 11:02
Location: UK

Postby Apu » 28 Jan 2008 02:32

RSS looks to increase activities in colleges

Times Of India

The RSS has launched "software shakhas" in a move to induct young, upwardly mobile IT professionals into its fold. IT Milans aren’t typical shakhas involving exercise and games.

"These are get-togethers where issues before the nation, its culture and religion, are discussed. We've been looking for professional brains and the Pune IT sector has the potential to provide it," said Sahane. The Pune pracharaks are now planning IT Milans in Kolhapur and Solapur.

In Bangalore, the participation of young IT pros and students has reached what the pracharaks call a "respectable 2,000". They conduct 28 IT Milans a week at various locations. Many of these professionals are also volunteering to go into rural areas in Karnataka and work with Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, an RSS outfit which focuses on tribal development.

"What has also helped," says Ram Madhav, "is the relaxation in the rules of our uniform. The new lot of IT volunteers no longer come in khaki shorts. We are now focussing on increasing our activities in colleges."

"There are many groups of RSS-minded IT youths who hold regular meetings. It's an informal step towards inculcating the RSS thought in young minds," says Niranjan Phadke, an IT professional.

Unlike the traditional shakhas on open grounds, the shakhas these days aren't "visible" says Madhav, which has led to the erroneous impression that these are dwindling.

"We are now appointing vidyarthi pramukhs at various levels to get the youth involved in our ideas," he says.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5219
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Jan 2008 19:27

x-post from book review:

Can someone commment on the truth index of this story?

[quote="Acharya"][quote]Name of the Book: Tuhfat al-Mujahidin (translated from Arabic by S. Muhammad Husayn Nainar)
Author: Shaykh Zainuddin Makhdum
Year: 2006
Pages: 139
Publisher: Islamic book Trust, Kuala Lumpur (www.ibtbooks.com) & Other Books, Calicut (otherbooks@post.com)
Other Books,
P.B.No.620, 13/776,
I Floor, New Way Building,
Railway Link Road,
Calicut-673002,
Kerala,India.
Ph: +91 495 2306808
Price not mentioned

The Tuhfat is one of Shaikh Zainuddin’s several works, and is the best known among them. A chronicle of the stiff resistance put up by the Muslims of Malabar against the Portuguese colonialists from 1498, when Vasco Da Gama arrived in Calicut, to 1583, it describes in considerable detail events, many of which that the author had himself witnessed and lived through. It was intended, as Shaikh Zainduddin says, as a means to exhort the Malabar Muslims to launch a struggle or jihad against the Portuguese invaders. The book thus extols the virtues of jihad against oppressors, and, at the same time, also provides fascinating details about the history of Islam in Malabar, the relations between Muslims and Hindus in the region and the customs and practices of both.

Islam’s first contact with India is said to have taken place in Malabar, and Shaikh Zainuddin offers a popularly-held account of this. He writes of how the Hindu ruler of Malabar, impressed with a group of Muslim pilgrims on their way to Ceylon, converted to Islam and accompanied them back to Arabia. There, shortly before he died, he instructed them to return to Malabar. They did as they were told, and the king’s governors welcomed them, allowing them to settle along the coast and establish mosques. Gradually, he writes, the Muslim community began expanding through the missionary efforts of Sufis and traders.

Relations between Muslims and the Hindus of Malabar, Shaikh Zainudin observes, were traditionally cordial. The rulers of Malabar, all Hindus, treated the Muslims with respect, one reason being that the Muslims played a vital role in the region’s economy because of their control of the trading routes linking Malabar to other lands by sea. Hindu rulers even paid salaries of the muezzins and qazis and allowed the Muslims to be governed in personal matters by their own laws. Hindus who converted to Islam were not harassed, and, even if they were of ‘low’ caste origin, were warmly welcomed into the Muslim community. This was probably one reason for the rapid spread of Islam in the region.

Shaikh Zainuddin’s observations about the Hindus of Malabar are remarkable for their sense of balance and sympathy. Of the Hindu rulers, he says, ‘There are some who are powerful and some comparatively weak. But the strong, as a matter of fact, will not attack or occupy the territory of the weak’. (This, Shaikh Zainuddin suggests, might be a result of the conversion of one of their kings, referred to earlier, to Islam ‘and of his supplications to this effect to God’). He also adds, ‘[The] people of Malabar are never treacherous in their wars’. At the same time, he notes with disapproval the deeply-rooted caste prejudices among the Malabari Hindus. So strict is the law of caste, he writes, that any violation of it results in excommunication, forcing the violator to convert to Islam or Christianity or become a yogi or mendicant or to be enslaved by the king. Even such a minor matter as a ‘high’ caste Hindu woman being hit by a stone thrown by a ‘low’ caste man causes her to lose caste. ‘How many such detestable customs!â€

vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Postby vsudhir » 28 Jan 2008 20:42

G Sub,
some pointed queries:
1. What is the status of the muzlim political outfits in WB and Assam? How many seats can they influence?
2. Is there demand for sharia in J&K anywhere? Or in areas like malappuram?
3. Whom do the UP muslims support politically - the SP or the BSP? Areas like Azamgarh and Rampur are almost muzlim majority, aren't they?

TIA.

farazhussain
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 09:00

New member

Postby farazhussain » 28 Jan 2008 20:55

Hello all,

I just joined yesterday and hope to actively participate in this forum.

Sorry for this post unrelated to the thread, but I didn't see any thread for introductions, etc.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4902
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Postby SBajwa » 28 Jan 2008 21:03

Sat Sri Akal Hussain sahib,

This is a Bharat Rakshak Forum. Ever since Internet was started (1993-1994)., this forum has been up and running. We all know each other and thus no need for introductions. You can simply start writing. Just be aware that BR is ahead of most average discussion forums and most of the folks here are very knowledgeable (Highly qualified PHds, Doctors, engineers).

Whatever the discussions you see here are not ramblings of average juvenile (though it might seem to a rookie BRite) but hardened attitudes after years of debates.

So.. when somebody says something about Islam here.. they know what they are talking about.. just don't get carried away... and welcome to the BR.

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1228
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Postby Sumeet » 28 Jan 2008 21:04

Gerard wrote:IUML protests India’s participation in Israeli Spy Satellite launch
Indian Union Muslim League (IUML) has strongly protested against India's participation in the launch of the Israeli Spy Satellite Tecsar.



Ok. But will they protest against Indian govt's military cooperation with Malaysia since that country has been oppressing its "Indian" minority. Will they show solidarity with them[ethnic indians in malaysia] against discriminatory & oppressive Islamic govt. ?


The IUML however appreciated and thanked the Government for declining the French proposal to allow that country's award to be conferred upon Taslima Nasreen during the French President's visit to India.


That award was suppose to acknowledge her feminist leanings and not an applaud for saying something against prophet.

IUML leader, in no uncertain terms, appealed to the Government "to revoke her visa and deport her immediately.

"We emphasise that both Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen be never allowed to enter India at any time in future," he said.


So tomm. if any Indian says something against or insults Islam/Prophet, then they will never be allowed back in their own motherland.

On the other hand what do they propose as a treatment for those Indian muslims who insult India by supporting pakistan [on issues ranging from cricket match to participating in anti india terrorist activity] ? Should we waste our time by initiating a case in court and follow all procedure or simply tell them that they are not welcome to live in their motherland India at all ?

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1228
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Postby Sumeet » 28 Jan 2008 21:13

Faraz if you are an Indian muslim, do answer my questions addressed to IUML. Remember that all these organizations claim to speak on behalf of Indian Muslims.

Also, before participating in this thread actively please do some reading. Read this thread from the first post onwards and also read the previous iterations of this thread.

You can find them here:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum.php?f=12

farazhussain
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 09:00

Postby farazhussain » 28 Jan 2008 21:21

Sbajwa: Thanks. And duly noted.

Sumeet: I will certainly read the thread before posting. And I'll try to respond to your post regarding the recent IUML statement.

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1228
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Postby Sumeet » 28 Jan 2008 21:38

Faraz, thanks and I am waiting. Also, on that note welcome here.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2008 07:55

Cross post from Paki thread

Gerard wrote:
After Vital Signs broke up in the early 1990s, lead singer Junaid Jamshed retired from music and joined a conservative Islamist group.


Image
posing with symbol of Paki manhood... the F-16..

Image
wannabe rock star...

Image
thinks he is Allah's gift to women... tall, fair, tight arsed

Image
arse getting tighter... need for more islam

photo
a serious muslim now ... growing beard, talking about sharia

Image
music is haram now... religious student

Image
Image
fatwa issuing mullah now... truly Allah must be pleased...


This is an interesting piskological commentary on the Packee equivalent of a Macaulayite - the "Rock star"

A lot of Macaulayites soon find out that westernization does not get them the acceptance and equality they expected from being that way and seacrh for roots. In the case of Pakis - the only layer beneath Macaulayization for an Indian subcontinental Muslim is Islam. islam at its core allows no room for accepting anyone or anything non Islamic. "Tolerance" and "secularism" or "pluralism" have no mention in the Quran.

The Muslim has only two possible "states" - either he becomes an Islamist or he stays Macaulayized in an existence that is basically disrespectful to Islam and is anti islamic. Islam allows only one or zero states - so if you are not wholly Islamic, you are unislamic.

For the Macaulayite Hindu - the choices appear to be more varied. Remaining a Macaulayite - he can find that his life does not necessarily negate Hindu teaching. He can find Hindu roots even without giving up Macaulayite trappings because Hindu tradition ignores or discards the outward appearances as long as the inside is right.

If the Hindu (or Sikh) chooses not to retain the outward trappings of being a Macaulayite - in terms of dress and behavior - he can still do that. When he does that he faces the risk of being declared equal-equal with the likes of Junaid Jamshed above - because a change from "Westernization" to a traditional "historic" appearance is declared to be "fundamentalism".

But this is a typical Macaulayite viewpoint. It is also the viewpoint that is being expressed in subtle ways in the west when governments see a shift away from "Westernization" as "fundamentalism", and therefore terrorism. In the US it manifests as trichophobia(?) (fear of beards). In France it is the crackdown on turbans. None of these views does not take into consideration fundamental differences between the Hindu worldview and the Islamic worldview. With the Hindu/Sikh worldview bing completely unknown - it is no surprise that "Regression from Westernizaion=terrorism"

The Hindu worldview from the outset demands the allowance of varied beliefs. God is not a restriction. You can praise or curse God, You can discard or accept God, You can fight or submit to God. You can deny God. Atheism and agnosticism are part and parcel of Hinduism. In that sense Hinduism is beyond religion. But the generic term "religion" - as in "what you worship" could still be applied to Hinduism.

For Islam, God is THE restriction. A demandng and restricting God lays the rules, and staying within those rules is supposed to tell you what is right and wrong.

Without going into the pros and cons - let me be an accepting Hindu and say "different strokes for different folks". But that statement also means that "strokes" other than Islam must be allowed. Any tendency to force islamic dictates as the one and only path is not our way. Not our dharma. if you want to keep islam as your path - you are welcome.

I have heard the mullahnic argument that a mere change to a traditional appearance is no more an indicator of extremism for a Muslim than it is for a Hindu.

Fine. I accept that. In that case no difference may exist between the Muslim and the Hindu who cnahges appearance.

But what if the change of appearance really indicates a change of mindset towards fundamentalism?

Here the differences really begin to show. Hindu "extremism" does not call for the elimination of all Gods, religions and people who do not belong to a particular viewpoint.

However, it may become necessary for Hindus to realise that nothing stops them from becoming fundamentalist killers. It is only a strange quirk of history that they have not gone that way en masse.

If Hindus really started (on a widespread basis) the tit for tat action that Islamic leaders keep calling for in response to real or perceived Muslim grievances we would have an interesting situation, to say the least.

This "interesting situation" has probably already occurred in some areas of India. It may be worth looking at local factors that lead to Hindu militancy versus "islamic excesses" leading to a Hindu sense of grievance. This too adds to the complexity of dealing with "Islamic extremism"

I will try and post some thoughts on this in another post.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2008 08:35

Cross post from the islamism therad

G Subramaniam wrote:http://www.aina.org/news/20080128151032.htm


At roughly 2.00pm to 2.30pm at the request of three or more Muslim men calling incessantly on their mobiles, scores of Muslims began descending on the hospital's emergency department. Hospital patients and staff were treated to an unimaginable spectacle: the hospital's emergency section was now In the process of lockdown. They [Muslims] arrived by private cars, panel vans, taxis, etc. There must have been hundreds of calls made. In one hour approximately one hundred and fifty angry Muslims were confronting a confused and petrified nursing and security staff. The nurses especially were visibly shaken and fearful. Some nurses unsuccessfully tried to reason with them above the wailing: "Please, can you keep the noise down, there are sick patients inside", "everyone who isn't a patient must go outside." Of course they wouldn't listen. At that stage there was about thirty of them. Somewhere in that time frame as the numbers of Muslims increased dramatically, the police made an appearance. Six squad cars arrived containing twenty or so police. They were armed and in uniform. Of course the security was totally inadequate.
...
Some of the comments of the mobile phone callers would seem unhinged to non-Muslims, but highly inflammatory to the Islamic mindset. "We have a problem here, the police are refusing us to take the body and they want to investigate his body for alcohol and drugs", some comments from assembled Muslims inside the emergency ward, under explanation that blood samples were required the Muslims vented their anger, refusing any drug tests on the body, "It's against Islam" .


I find this a very interesting news report and I believe it is important to speak freely.

In India I have commonly heard in hushed "secular" tones about Muslims mobs collecting and breaking windows of a hospital and assaulting staff when a Muslim is brought to a hospital in a very sick condition and then declared dead.

The criterion that the mob uses is that the Muslim was breathing (or talking) when he was brought to hospital but dies in hospital. Therefore the hospital is responsible for his death - even if he was almost dead when he arrives and would have died even if he was taken to a mosque.

In at least two hospitals where I have friends - such incidents have occurred and I have been told "You know - it was the usual - a Muslim mob". Both incidents (and others that I know of) are reported in the Indian press in a "secular" way. It is not treated as a Muslim problem but as a riot situation that "anybody can cause". But if you speak to doctors and other hospital staff - they will invariably say that Muslims patients need to be treated differently because they may riot.

In fact "treated differently" means that Muslim patients often cannot be given the best treatment because of idiotic "well wishers" in mobs. The mob will riot if you give quick treatment without massaging the mob ego and kowtowing to some "Muslim elders".

Medical rules mean that massive resuscitation measures must be undertaken immediately. In the presence of Muslim relatives and "well wishers" this cannot be done because you have to waste time explaining to the "elders" of the Muslim family that the man is about to die. Adn everybody will claim to be "family".

In the case of a Muslim patient in India it is often safer for everyone to bring the whole mob of relatives inside and show them the bloody or suffering man and declare that he is about to die.

This will waste several precious minutes. the mob will then confer among themselves and plead "Doctor - please do something". The doctor must then shake his head and say "I will try but the chances are slim" and then explain in detail the tubes and metods that may be used while more time is wasted.

There will then be wailing and crying and the mob goes into disarray. After all this foreplay it is possible to treat a Muslim. If he dies - the mob will wail but will declare that they had been told that he may die. If he lives - the mob will disperse but will collect again if you give hope and then the patient again looks like he may die.

Muslims in India, with their lower levels of education do not understand all this. India secularism and idiotic ignorant ddm prevent the press for reporting this accurately. Muslims will behave stupid and claim that people are being anti Muslim. "Secular" Hindus will imediately take the side of the ignorant Muslims and confuse the issue further. Only Muslims will suffer in the end and they wil wail and wail and wail. And secular Hindus will also wail saying "Muslims are being kept down"

Muslims need massive education and part of that education is that they must not collect in mobs in hospital demanding explanations because a hospital cannot work with a noisy threatening mob.

However I am certain that Indian Muslims somehow are actively taught to collect together in a mob whenever a Muslim is involved in anything. They may think they are doing some good - but their idiotic leaders themselves do not realise that they are doing themselves and any Muslim patient more harm. Maybe Muslims are taught not to believe anything unless some Muslim community or family leader is told and accepts the same. They are probably brought up to fear doing anything different. But the "leader" or "elder" is also from the same group and is equally ignorant - although his word is respected.

I think this is the first time in the world that a doctor is writing this in public.

There is a lot more I can write - but there has to be a realization by responsible Muslim leaders that Muslims in crowds actually do behave in a peculiar and different manner that is not always good for everyone - least of all themselves. They then go about crying that they are misunderstood. If this is not a degree of stupidity (or ignorance) among Muslims what is it? Someone needs to say it out loud and tell them rather than keeping quiet in the name of "secularism".

Every doctor in every hospital knows how Muslim mobs behave. Everyone gets the same treatment - but Muslim mobs treat the hospital differently from others. It is easier to shake one's head and leave the Muslim to Allah rather than being blamed for killing him by a stupid uneducated Muslim mob. Ask any hospital when they last had furniture or windows broken. Most often it is a Muslim mob. But which Indian secularist m*darch*d has the guts to collect and realease accurate statistics and reports about sociological problems in India? Hacckkk thooo!

Muslims need to develop "consciousness of themselves" and how they are seen in the world, and how they react to the world and how the world reacts to them. This is a learning process that Muslims frequently reject as "Anti-Muslim sentiment". This awakening or consciousness is happening to Hindus in India. it must happen with Muslims of India as well and to hell with Pakistan or Bangladesh or any other country.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6989
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby JE Menon » 29 Jan 2008 13:23

A very interesting post Shiv, and an issue I was completely unaware of.

A general question, is there any way to find out a percentage-wise breakdown of the religious background of patients treated in India by professional psychiatrists? I mean medical treatment, whereby someone goes to a psychiatrist because he/she has or is perceived to have a problem or their offspring has or is perceived to have a problem.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Postby Sanku » 29 Jan 2008 13:33

Some one was saying education helps? It seems not; according to this study actually it hurts and mind you EE times is respected trade journal.

Holy War! Researchers say EEs have a 'terrorist mindset'

Holy War! Researchers say EEs have a 'terrorist mindset'

Junko Yoshida
EE Times
(01/28/2008 10:07 AM EST)

MANHASSET, N.Y. " Is there a thread that ties engineers to Islamic terrorism?

There certainly is, according to Diego Gambetta and Steffen Hertog at Oxford University, who recently published a paper titled, "Engineers of Jihad." The authors call the link to terrorism "the engineer's mindset."

The sociology paper published last November, which has been making rounds over the Internet and was recently picked up by The Atlantic, uses illustrative statistics and qualitative data to conclude that there is a strong relationship between an engineering background and involvement in a variety of Islamic terrorist groups. The authors have found that graduates in subjects such as science, engineering, and medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim world. The authors also note that engineers, alone, are strongly over-represented among graduates who gravitate to violent groups.

However, contrary to popular speculation, it's not technical skills that make engineers attractive recruits to radical groups. Rather, the authors pose the hypothesis that "engineers have a 'mindset' that makes them a particularly good match for Islamism," which becomes explosive when fused by the repression and vigorous radicalization triggered by the social conditions they endured in Islamic countries.

But what is the engineer's mindset?

The authors call it a mindset that inclines them to take more extreme conservative and religious positions.

A past survey in the United States has already shown that the proportion of engineers who declare themselves to be on the right of the political spectrum is greater than any other disciplinary groups--such as economists, doctors, scientists, and those in the humanities and social sciences.

The authors note that the mindset is universal.

Whether American, Canadian or Islamic, they pointed out that a disproportionate share of engineers seem to have a mindset that makes them open to the quintessential right-wing features of "monoism" (why argue where there is one best solution) and by "simplism" (if only people were rational, remedies would be simple).

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5388
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Postby niran » 29 Jan 2008 14:21

Shiv Sir,
what you mean is "mob care tactic"
nothing is formally taught.
informally all interns are taught before their posting in ER.
The behavior you mentioned, isn't limited to Muslim.
Have witnessed same from a mob of post graduates.
The trick is to "confidently and loudly" tell the mob that
their beloved is about to die. to save him massive amount of blood
and medicine is needed, pronto. Take care never to mention Money.
Now will the guardians step forward and take the list. Please arrange it
in so and so time. meanwhile I will try my best. this causes the mob
to disperse quietly.

Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5805
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Postby Vikas » 29 Jan 2008 16:43

Shiv,
I didn't knew about this mob-o-cracy by muslims in hospitals but I know from personal experience that Relatives of the patients
would beat up junior doctors and Jr. Doctors would go on flash strike.
Could it be because of the way the ordinary folks are treated in hospitals which is brutal to say the least.
Frankly I am not aware of the point that you have brought up so call it my ignorence but the the general medical staff in hospitals is no angels.
As far not maintaining decorum in the hospitals, I guess that comes more from illitracy and lack of civil sense rather than some inbuild intution to collect together and create fracas in the hospitals.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2008 17:43

VikasRaina wrote:Shiv,
I didn't knew about this mob-o-cracy by muslims in hospitals but I know from personal experience that Relatives of the patients
would beat up junior doctors and Jr. Doctors would go on flash strike.
Could it be because of the way the ordinary folks are treated in hospitals which is brutal to say the least.
Frankly I am not aware of the point that you have brought up so call it my ignorence but the the general medical staff in hospitals is no angels.
As far not maintaining decorum in the hospitals, I guess that comes more from illitracy and lack of civil sense rather than some inbuild intution to collect together and create fracas in the hospitals.


What interests me is not mob behavior, but why and how the mob collects in the first place.

What most people may not realise that desperately sick and dying or nearly dead patients are coming into hospitals day in and day out every day of the year. Even apart from that - patients' relatives are naturally anxious that their loved ones may be dying, even if the illness is trivial. This is routine work - almost drudgery for any doctor. 99% of the time there is no mob.

Once you have an emotionally labile mob in which one group of women are sitting right in front of the hospital entrance and wailing loudly and beating their breasts - young men around get angry and upset and ask to be let in. They try and push past a door and are stopped by a guard. There are hot words spoken and someone pushes from the back and the crowd rushes in. Someone breaks a window accidentally and someone cuts a hand. And the riot starts

The doctor is stuck with Hobson's choice. If he does not allow the mob access to the patient and the patient dies - the story is that the patient was alive when he came in and dead after the doctor did something (or did not do something). If the doctor does what he has to do in public - i.e shove tubes and needles up all sorts of holes - no normal human can watch without being horrified and the doctor gets blamed anyway.

So the important thing is not to have an emotional mob collect if possible. Muslims typically produce emotional mobs more frequently than others. Why is this so? Is it because they are expected to be on the spot to show sympathy to an injured/sick Muslim no matter how distant the relationship? The average number of visitors that one sees under normal, non emergency circumstances is enormous. At the best of times most patients rarely appear with one or two relatives. There may be half a dozen or a dozen in the case of Muslims.

I wonder in fact if there is anything uniquely Muslim about this and, it turns out that there may well be something here. Sick people naturally have female relatives, and I wonder if the act of allowing women out entails their accompaniment by fathers and brothers, and other women. And of course, all the children must be in tow.

This in fact may explain the extraordinarily large number of people on the spot. And while the distress is understandable, mob behavior that may result is not. And the mob gets emotional because there are a lot of hangers about and escorts with no work other than to sit and watch over women who may have reason to wail.

Skanda
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 02:19

Postby Skanda » 29 Jan 2008 17:59

Interesting post Shiv. Till you wrote about these, I hadnt quite even thought about it. Very nice.

prashanth
BRFite
Posts: 511
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 16:50
Location: Barad- dyr

Postby prashanth » 29 Jan 2008 18:56

Great posts Dr.Shiv. You have given a very good insight to the traditional muslim mind. I have heard of such mob behavior earlier. Only now do i know why exactly such mob riots happen.


Once you have an emotionally labile mob in which one group of women are sitting right in front of the hospital entrance and wailing loudly and beating their breasts - young men around get angry and upset and ask to be let in. They try and push past a door and are stopped by a guard. There are hot words spoken and someone pushes from the back and the crowd rushes in. Someone breaks a window accidentally and someone cuts a hand. And the riot starts

Rudranathh
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 20:06

Postby Rudranathh » 29 Jan 2008 20:03

Two attacks on doctors at two different hospitals, one at Niloufer hospital in Hyderabad and another at Nayapul government maternity hospital by members of a muslim party(MIM) including by an current state assembly legislator.

Anyone see a pattern here?

News Report Link
3 Dec 2007
HYDERABAD: More than 250 junior doctors of the Niloufer hospital, joined by their counterparts from other government-run hospitals in the city, spent the night on the road demanding that the police file an attempt to murder case against Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) legislator Afsar Khan and also his suspension from the assembly.

The trouble began at the hospital on Sunday when Afsar Khan and MIM activists attacked duty doctors for the alleged delay in giving treatment to a child.

According to the doctors, Junaid Khan, a MIM activist, admitted his one-year-old daughter as she was suffering from respiratory problem.

Angry over the alleged delay in treatment of the baby, Junaid and his relatives reportedly created a ruckus. Police arrested Junaid on a complaint by the doctors.

After learning about the detention of Junaid, the legislator went to the hospital and asked the doctors to withdraw the case. When doctors refused to oblige, he and his supporters started abusing them and reportedly manhandled them.

Afsar Khan, who was also involved in the attack on controversial Bangladeshi author Tasleema Nasreen at a function here in August, and one of his supporters were arrested late Sunday night but were later released on bail.

The legislator, who was booked for assault, criminal intimidation and insulting the modesty of women, denied that he and his supporters attacked any doctor. He said they were only trying to persuade them to withdraw case against MIM worker.


Minister for Medical Services Galla Aruna Kumari and Minister for Labour Mukesh Goud met the protesting junior doctors and urged them to withdraw the strike. Both promised the doctors that they would facilitate a meeting with assembly speaker KR Suresh Reddy so that they can place their demand before him.


Hyderabad docs strike work
4 Dec 2007
HYDERABAD:
...doctors went on strike in protest against the assault by Majlis-a-Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) MLA Afsar Khan and his supporters, said resident medical officer K Usha Rani.

The strike, which began on Sunday, spread to government hospitals in Vijayawada, Wara-ngal and Kakinada by Monday.

The MIM MLA, beat up doctors after a duty doctor allegedly misbehaved with his relative who came for the treatment of his daughter. A case was registered against Junaid, the MLA's relative, also for assault.

Afsar Khan, the MLA, was arrested on Sunday after doctors lodged a case. He was, however, released later.


Hyderabad doctors step up stir
4 Dec 2007
HYDERABAD: The agitators have been demanding immediate arrest of Majlis Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) MLA Afsar Khan under non-bailable charges and his suspension from the Assembly for attacking the doctors on duty on Sunday.

The government has decided to order CID probe into the attack by Khan and his followers.


Junior doctors' stir continues in Andhra Pradesh
17 Dec 2007
HYDERABAD: Even as the members of the Indian Medical Association (IMA) have decided to withdraw their strike, the junior doctors demanding action against two MIM legislators continued their agitation by disrupting work in government hospitals across the state on Monday.

The state IMA chapter which had given the strike call, extending its support to striking junior medicos after the recent attacks on doctors, called off the agitation after meeting Chief Minister Y S Rajasekhar Reddy on Sunday night. But medical students refused to call off their strike launched after an attack on a girl student doctor at Nayapul government maternity hospital on December 14.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Postby surinder » 29 Jan 2008 21:11

Gerard wrote:
Image
Image


What kind of a turban is this? I bet I have seen this in some other new-Qazi convert. Probably some photo of Omar Sheikh. This is a wierd turban. Does not look like anything from any part of TSP. It might be THE turban of of poobaah.

Rudranathh
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 20:06

Postby Rudranathh » 29 Jan 2008 21:35

surinder wrote:
Gerard wrote:
Image


What kind of a turban is this? I bet I have seen this in some other new-Qazi convert. Probably some photo of Omar Sheikh. This is a wierd turban. Does not look like anything from any part of TSP. It might be THE turban of of poobaah.

Image
Muslim religious elders, like this man from Yemen, often wear a turban wrapped around a cap known in Arabic as a kalansuwa.
These caps can be spherical or conical, colorful or solid white, and their styles vary widely from region to region. Likewise, the color of the turban wrapped around the kalansuwa varies. White is thought by some Muslims to be the holiest turban color, based on legends that the prophet Mohammed wore a white turban. Green, held to be the color of paradise, is also favored by some. Not all Muslims wear turbans. In fact, few wear them in the West, and in major cosmopolitan centers around the Muslim world, turbans are seen by some as passé.

farazhussain
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 09:00

Postby farazhussain » 30 Jan 2008 03:27

Sumeet wrote:Faraz if you are an Indian muslim, do answer my questions addressed to IUML. Remember that all these organizations claim to speak on behalf of Indian Muslims.


The IUML cannot claim to speak on behalf of all Indian Muslims. That's obvious. It may comprise mainly Indian Muslims, but as a whole we didn't elect them and they don't have any such mandate to represent all of us.

On their website, they talk in general terms about being a party of "Muslims of India" and of protecting the "legitimate rights and interests" of Muslims, but thankfully, they don't make any tall claims of either being the sole representatives of Indian Muslims or of representing all Indian Muslims. However, I'd rather they explicitly state on their website that they are a group/organization/party which does what it thinks is best for Indian Muslims, but it won't necessarily reflect the views of all Muslims in India.

Ok. But will they protest against Indian govt's military cooperation with Malaysia since that country has been oppressing its "Indian" minority.


Maybe they will. They should be asked for their opinion on that matter. The GoI has at the highest level taken note of that issue and has taken it up with the Malaysian Govt. (if I'm correct) and this was also covered in the Indian media - many newspapers and also NDTV.

Its understood that since the Government of India is comprised mainly Hindus, it will automatically do what is best to protects Hindus worldwide. No Indian Muslim organization need explicitly tell the Indian Govt. to do that.

Will they show solidarity with them[ethnic indians in malaysia] against discriminatory & oppressive Islamic govt. ?

Maybe they will. This issue has been covered nationally. Senior politicians like MMS and Karunanidhi have spoken out on this. Maybe the IUML can be specifically asked to clarify its stand here.

And while I agree that Malaysia politicians need to urgently attend to the growing racial and religious strife in the country (and non-Muslims' concerns about their future there), I too would caution against what one writer called "overkill" accusations. Your generic "oppressive Islamic" characterization of the Malaysian Government falls in that category.

The Malay Muslim majority is, in my opinion, simpleton and ignorant. They are certainly not anti-Hindu or anti-Indian.

I have no idea why they are not doing more to allay the concerns of Tamil Hindus, especially on a serious matter like temple demolitions. But I don't think there is any significant anti-Hindu sentiment in that country.

So tomm. if any Indian says something against or insults Islam/Prophet, then they will never be allowed back in their own motherland.

They didn't say that. People in India have previously attacked Muslims and even Islam. Muslims even have been unfairly killed. No one demanded the attackers be banished from India.


On the other hand what do they propose as a treatment for those Indian muslims who insult India by supporting pakistan [on issues ranging from cricket match to participating in anti india terrorist activity] ?

I don't know their opinion. And if Indian Muslims break any Indian law, they are liable to be charged, tried and sentenced - is there any doubt about that?

Should we waste our time by initiating a case in court and follow all procedure or simply tell them that they are not welcome to live in their motherland India at all ?

You should make your opinion known on what you think should be done in specific circumstances.
Last edited by farazhussain on 30 Jan 2008 05:10, edited 1 time in total.

farazhussain
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 09:00

Postby farazhussain » 30 Jan 2008 03:49

Here are my personal comments on the IUML statement. First of all, if I could help it, they would never release such a statement, and I deeply regret they did.

"The growing Indo-Israeli relations are in defiance of the age old Indian support to Palestinians. They reflect deepening insensitivity to humanitarian concerns and healthy world order, as Israel is the worst occupying and occupation force perpetrating untold atrocities on Palestinians.


It is also shocking that India participated in this launching of Israeli Spy Satellite which is heavily focused, with its capacity to spy day and night and in all weather, against Iran with which India has age long friendly ties," IUML president G.M. Banatwalla said in a statement here Friday.


Iran is a sovereign country and it should be capable of taking care of its own people and interests. If the IUML is concerned about Iran's welfare, they should write to the Iranian embassy about it.

On this issue, if Iran has some misgivings, they are very much capable of bringing it up with Indians and Israelis. Its up to them to discuss this with Indian authorities. Also, who's fault is it that instead of having regular contacts with Israel, they choose to give belligerent statements, which can only be interpreted as a call to war (unless we believe the mistranslation theory)? If Iran has complaints about Israelis, they'd better start talking to them now.

IMHO, Indian Muslims should stay away from this as much as possible.

The IUML laments that the Government of India has, on one hand, displayed total indifference to Israel's blockade to Gaza stopping food, medicine, electricity and other essential supplies, and on the other, actively participated in adding to the military capabilities of Israel.

"The sealing of Gaza borders by Israel is an inhuman siege imposed on the entire suffering people of Gaza," Banatwalla asserted.


If the IUML is co concerned about Israeli actions in that region, maybe they can go and convey this to the Israeli mission in New Delhi.

G Subramaniam
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 17:58

Postby G Subramaniam » 30 Jan 2008 09:58

vsudhir wrote:G Sub,
some pointed queries:
1. What is the status of the muzlim political outfits in WB and Assam? How many seats can they influence?
2. Is there demand for sharia in J&K anywhere? Or in areas like malappuram?
3. Whom do the UP muslims support politically - the SP or the BSP? Areas like Azamgarh and Rampur are almost muzlim majority, aren't they?

TIA.


Both in Assam and WB, muslims operate under the cover of secular parties, but as the muslim % increases, they may soon throw off the seculars

The Bhumi Uched front in west bengal is run by a mullah
Thanks to CPM rigging , I am not sure how many seats it can win
Muslims are 25% of WB now, when they increase to 33% in the next 20 years, they may become strong enough to throw off the CPM

In assam, the AUDF , run by a bangladeshi origin muslim won 10 seats out of 126, but again AUDF will eat into congress votes

In short the secular will get eaten alive by the vote bank they had created


Elections are won seat by seat and as of now, muslims are majority in 35 seats in Assam and 60 seats in WB
As the muslim % crosses 20% in a seat, suddenly the BJP starts winning seats
thanks to muslims reaching 'critical mass' and in turn spurring hindu consolidation
The muslim vote bank has maximum impact when muslims are below 20%

In the 2004 elections
BJP won 40% of the vote in the following seats that are 45% muslim
Krishnagar - WB
Nagaon - assam
Mangaldoi- assam


In JK, the legislature voted in sharia last year

Azamgarh is 33% muslim
Rampur is 51% muslim

UP muslims support SP, much less BSP
reason being Mayawati often has coalitions with BJP
Also, Mayawati has openly called muslims as fanatics and said that
muslims like to vote for religious fanatics
Finally in the case of SP, the muslim - yadav vote bank does not have too much friction, urban muslim + rural yadav

In the case of BSP, Urban Dalits are the ones mostly involved in anti-muslim riots, not the banias
Muslim gangsters have killed many BSP leaders
and Mayawati has arrested Mukthar Ansari etc

In 2007 elections, in a few constituencies, BJP candidates withdrew in favor of BSP to consolidate hindu vote against muslim gangsters

At the local level, Dalit mafia competes against muslim mafia

Mayawati may mouth secular slogans but it is strictly opportunistic
she is not a true mullah like mulayam

G Subramaniam
BRFite
Posts: 405
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 17:58

Muslim attacks on doctors

Postby G Subramaniam » 30 Jan 2008 10:10

My nephew was working for some time in kerala as a doctor
*Muslims do this more in areas like calicut where they are 35% than in Trivandrum where they are 10%, so there is a local critical mass that has to be exceeded before this behavior happens
*Many non-muslim hospitals hire a lot of security guards to protect against islamic rioitng
*Many doctors refuse to treat muslims for fear of assault and try to get a muslim patient to go else where


--

Shiv had mentioned that this was due to lack of education

I beg to disagree, last month, several doctors in hyderabad were assaulted by Owaisi, a rich MLA


Much of muslim rioting behavior can be explained as a form of jihad
- this can be in a minor form such as throwing stones at hindu procesions or attacking a hindu doctor

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2008 20:33

Cross post thanks to nkumar
http://indianmuslims.in/where-do-indian ... from-here/

Where Do Indian Muslims Go From Here?
Written by Kaleem Kawaja · January 29, 2008 ·

In the 600 years that Muslims were in power in India most Muslim kings were moderates who held power by forming alliances of Muslims and Hindus. During the 300 year long Moghul empire it was a political alliance of Moghuls and Rajput Hindus that held power in North India. Together, they spent decades to extend their hold into South India waging continual wars against the Bahmani sultans, the Golkunda dynasty, the Qutubshahi dynasty - all of whom were Muslims.

Most Muslim rulers and their noblemen in India forsook the ethos of the West Asian nations of their origin and integrated themselves with the culture and soil of India to create the Indo-Islamic civilization. Much as in ancient times the Aryans of central Asia integrated themselves with the same Indian soil to develop the Hindu civilization.
Indian Muslims are justifiably proud of their Indo-Islamic heritage. It is a genuinely Indian civilization that the people of India belonging to different religions created by merging the culture of the Muslim immigrants from West Asia with that of the Hindus of India.

At the dawn of independence while a sizeable number of Muslims migrated to Pakistan, about 60 million at that time chose to stay in India. Without a doubt these people rejected the two nation theory, considered the formation of Pakistan a disaster for the Muslims and India, and believed in the secular and diverse milieu of India.

It can not be forgotten that a majority of Muslims in the provinces that remained in India supported Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Valabbahi Patel and Maulana Azad in their opposition to the partitioning of India.
The Present

However soon after independence in 1947 Muslims in India found themselves the victims of the backlash of the formation of Pakistan, an action that they had opposed strongly. They found themselves excluded from the mainstream and suspect in their nationalism, in the midst of people with whom they had grown up as youngsters.

Today the overwhelming majority of India’s Muslims consider being Indian as important as being Muslim. A majority of them are people who were born after independence and for whom stories of India’s partition is something that they heard from their parents. Of their own free will Muslims vote for secular parties rather than for Muslim parties and candidates, who are not secular.

The result of the last election indicates that of the about thirty Muslim members of the Indian parliament, all of whom stood from constituencies with sizeable Muslim population, only three are from Muslim parties. Muslims in India never associate with any separatists or anti-national elements. As for the Kashmir problem, it is not a Hindu-Muslim problem. It is the result of years of mismanagement by successive governments in New Delhi and Srinagar, that allowed the festering impoverishment and deprivation of Kashmiris to acquire an anti-national color.
The Despair

In-spite of their being 140 million strong and their overwhelming festering impoverishment, Muslims in India have no leadership worth its name, no coherent direction and no roadmap to break out of their sixty year old state- of- siege. The number of Indian Muslims living below poverty level has remained at 55 percent for decades, compared to the 35 percent national average. Similarly 45 percent of the Muslim community continues to be illiterate compared to 36 percent for all Indians; 55 percent of Muslim women are illiterate compared to 40 percent for all Indian women.

The blight and squalor of Muslim townships in India’s many cities reflects the contempt with which successive federal and state governments have treated the Muslim community for decades. The very acute shortage of schools, medical clinics, parks, paved roads, sanitation facilities and the large number of unemployed youth in Muslim localities is a gnawing reality. In most Muslim high schools there are either no libraries and laboratories, or they are in shambles. Despite many surveys, commissions and recommendations that successive federal and state governments have promulgated, the very poor condition of the basic civic infrastructure in Muslim townships flies in the face of the impressive modernized infrastructure in the rest of the country.

For sixty years now Muslim Dalits and Muslim OBCs, despite their impoverishment and despair, have been excluded from the purview of the government’s affirmative action plan while Hindu and Buddhist Dalits and OBCs have benefitted immensely from such plans.

For decades a variety of political parties, e.g. Congress, Samajwadi Party, Bahujan Samaj Party, Communist Party of India and others that proclaim themselves as sympathetic to Muslims, have continued to exploit the Muslim community for their votes with empty and meaningless promises that have remained unfulfilled, even though waves of elections have come and gone. While these parties have given tickets to Muslim candidates for parliament and state assemblies, and some of them have won, these powerless Muslim representatives in the political infrastructure have no voice in bringing development to the Muslim townships. Over a decade ago these parties proclaimed repeatedly in UP and Bihar that Urdu – the mother tongue of Muslims in those states – will be the second language. But after more than a decade hardly any Urdu teachers have been hired for the numerous schools, and Urdu with which their heritage is directly linked continues to die.

In such circumstances it is indeed strange that some political parties and politicians often campaign on the theme that successive governments have appeased Muslims. This misleading propaganda has so charged the atmosphere that today every legitimate Muslim grievance, be it an appeal for financial relief for victims of communal violence, or basic infrastructure uplift, or better schools or preservation of Urdu, or protection of mosques and shrines, or freedom to retain their Muslim identity, is advertised by the obscurantist political forces as Muslims’ attempt to seek special privileges.
The Future

After waiting for sixty years to have political parties and others lobby for them and help resolve their problems, today the future of the Muslim community lies in taking a bold lead and seeking the active help of the majority Hindu community and the power structure. They need to calmly persuade majority Hindus that their backwardness is a national Indian problem just like the backwardness of the lower caste Hindus, and that it is not a problem of just the Muslim community.

If the Muslims are trying to retain their Indo-Islamic identity then so are all major ethnic groups in India. Punjabi Hindus have very different social practices than Tamil Hindus; Bengali Hindus have totally different social practices than the Gujarati Hindus; UP/Bihar Hindus have completely different cultural practices than the Andhra Pradesh Hindus. So why should mainstream India interpret the attempts of the Indian Muslims to retain their distinct identity as lack of integration and nationalism? Why not lend a helping hand to help break their state-of-siege?

Kaleem Kawaja is past President of Association of Indian Muslims of America (AIM), Washington DC.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2008 21:18



My responses, for what they are worth:

Most Muslim rulers and their noblemen in India forsook the ethos of the West Asian nations of their origin and integrated themselves with the culture and soil of India to create the Indo-Islamic civilization. Much as in ancient times the Aryans of central Asia integrated themselves with the same Indian soil to develop the Hindu civilization.


The "Aryans of central Asia" business is a lie. That "history" has now been rubbished. Note that if Mr Kallem Kawaja can quote history that is convenient to his viewpoint, why be concerned but "injustices" being done to Muslims using similarly distorted history

Indian Muslims are justifiably proud of their Indo-Islamic heritage.


No Doubt No doubt.
But most Hindus too are justifiably proud of their Indic heritage.

It can not be forgotten that a majority of Muslims in the provinces that remained in India supported Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Valabbahi Patel and Maulana Azad in their opposition to the partitioning of India.


Sir. The Muslim majority provinces voted for the Muslim league. Some of those provinces still remain very backward.

However soon after independence in 1947 Muslims in India found themselves the victims of the backlash of the formation of Pakistan, an action that they had opposed strongly. They found themselves excluded from the mainstream and suspect in their nationalism, in the midst of people with whom they had grown up as youngsters.


True. But look at the Hindu viewpoint. The Hindu could survive ONLY if he chose India. The Muslim in 1947 was free to choose to live in India or Pakistan. And for years it was not clear to Hindus whether a given Muslim would choose this nation or that. The Hindu was restricted, not the Muslim. The Hindu was restricted from living or visiting what had been part of his land. The Muslim was given rights in india and would be welcome in Pakistan.

As for the Kashmir problem, it is not a Hindu-Muslim problem. It is the result of years of mismanagement by successive governments in New Delhi and Srinagar, that allowed the festering impoverishment and deprivation of Kashmiris to acquire an anti-national color.


Maybe correct sir. Maybe correct. But there is a Hindu viewpoint too. "Years of mismanagement" includes the ethnic cleansing of Hindu pandits by Muslims, so it's a little lie to say that there was no Hindu-Muslim problem there. Another little lie is the complaint that partition made Indian Muslims suspect in an earlier paragraph, and quietly forgetting that Pakistanis, who, for Hindus were "people with whom they had grown up as youngsters." made every effort to portray Kashmir as a Hindu Muslim problem. How can an Indian Muslim conveniently deny that there was no "Hindu-Muslim problem" in Kashmir?

Muslims in India have no leadership worth its name, no coherent direction and no roadmap to break out of their sixty year old state- of- siege.


It is another lie to say that Muslims do not have leaders. When Muslims do not have leaders they go to the ulema and follow what the ulema say. That is part of the problem. There are plenty of Hindu leaders to follow. One has to learn to trust at least some of them. They are telling Muslims what to do, but Muslims do not follow them. Tell the truth sir, are Muslims taught, or are they not taught to distrust non Muslims?

55 percent of Muslim women are illiterate compared to 40 percent for all Indian women.


Social workers that I speak to tell me that Muslims refuse to send their girls to school. Muslims may want slamic schools for them. If Muslims want to stay apart, why complain about Hindus. Hindus are begging for Muslims to join, not remain separate. Muslims choose not to join and choose to whine and whine and whine and complain.


For sixty years now Muslim Dalits and Muslim OBCs, despite their impoverishment and despair, have been excluded from the purview of the government’s affirmative action plan


But sir - this is confusing. You say "Muslim Dalits and Muslim OBCs". But "dalits" and "OBCs" are HHindu problem are they not? castes are for Hindus not Muslims? Are you conveniently now asking for case because it is beneficial to do that.

From a Hindu viewpoint, Muslims in 1947 asked for a separate country because that was convenient. Now you are asking for a new definition that makes caste a Muslim feature. That sounds like a convenient ploy. Doesn't everyone want an advantage?

If the Muslims are trying to retain their Indo-Islamic identity then so are all major ethnic groups in India. Punjabi Hindus have very different social practices than Tamil Hindus; Bengali Hindus have totally different social practices than the Gujarati Hindus; UP/Bihar Hindus have completely different cultural practices than the Andhra Pradesh Hindus. So why should mainstream India interpret the attempts of the Indian Muslims to retain their distinct identity as lack of integration and nationalism? Why not lend a helping hand to help break their state-of-siege?


Yes, yes yes Sir. But you forget that all these Punjabi, Tamil and UP/Bihar Hindus - with all their differences, share in Indic culture. Can Muslims show that they share that Indic culture too? After all that indic culture has been dissed, criticized and trashed. Pakistan has tried to reject it, and you too are denying it by pretending that all these Hindus are different. Yes they are different - but the link is Indic culture boss. It has survived and will thrive. Why do you choose to deny that it is present?

And don't forget that dalits and OBCs - a group you now claim includes Muslims are ALSO Indic culture. Why deny it in one area and beg to join it in another?

Ardeshir
BRFite
Posts: 831
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 03:10
Location: Londonistan/Nukkad

Postby Ardeshir » 30 Jan 2008 21:23

It can not be forgotten that a majority of Muslims in the provinces that remained in India supported Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Valabbahi Patel and Maulana Azad in their opposition to the partitioning of India.

Ah, this is an oft-quoted lie.
Maulana Azad didn't reject the two-nation theory because of the love for India and the Indic-culture. He rejected the theory, and Pakistan, because as a good citizen of the Islamic 'nation', it was required of him to create a 'Dar-ul-Islam' in a 'Dar-ul-Harb'. He is on record having said that. I doubt any Muslim in that time would have rejected the two-nation theory. Even the much venerated Abdul Ghafar Khan moved to Pakistan.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Postby surinder » 30 Jan 2008 21:42

shiv wrote:Cross post thanks to nkumar
http://indianmuslims.in/where-do-indian ... from-here/

Where Do Indian Muslims Go From Here?
Written by Kaleem Kawaja · January 29, 2008 ·

...

At the dawn of independence while a sizeable number of Muslims migrated to Pakistan, about 60 million at that time chose to stay in India. Without a doubt these people rejected the two nation theory, considered the formation of Pakistan a disaster for the Muslims and India, and believed in the secular and diverse milieu of India.

It can not be forgotten that a majority of Muslims in the provinces that remained in India supported Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Valabbahi Patel and Maulana Azad in their opposition to the partitioning of India.


Let us look at the facts to see if the above is a truth or lie. At the time of partion of majority of Muslims of united India chose to partition India and live in the Islami paradise of united Pakistan. This evidenced even today when you see that

Population of TSP + Bangladesh > Population of Muslims in India.

So majority did not even stay in India. Majority of muslims became pakistan. That is even true today. Now the minority of Muslims who stayed in India include those who wanted to migrate, but couldn't. You can take them out of the equation.

Furthermore, it is obvious to even the most foolish Hindu that anything that is Muslim majority is in a state of problem. He knows that all the Muslim-majority states & areas of India in 1947 became Pakistan. The only one that did not (J&K) has been in a state of continuous problem since then. You can use any strategy of arguments and rhetoric, but even idiots know some basic things. Who are you trying to fool?

This article gives me a chance to add one more thing to the list of characteristics of Islamists: Denial of history. It seems like an endemic to islamism. Indian/paki muslims talk of tolerant Mughals, the Alamgir Aurangzeb and his benevolent empire. Islamists talk of how the golden period of Spain was the muslim rule. How Izlam is ROP (religion of peace). Denial and distortion of history is a mark of Islamism. There is no evidence of a trait of honestly seeking truth in Islamism.

Rye
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 05 Aug 2001 11:31

Postby Rye » 30 Jan 2008 21:54

surinder wrote:
Denial and distortion of history is a mark of Islamism. There is no evidence of a trait of honestly seeking truth in Islamism.


But Kaleem Kawaja is just being a "good muslim" (from the point of the mullahs and the islamists) when he lies for the sake of islam -- that is what his "book of truth" tells him to do. The rampant holocaust denial mentality in the so-called "muslim world" arises from this denial of history. It also seems that anything that portrays islam in its true colours is "incorrect and anti-islamic" by definition.

If Islam had any honesty in it, as an ideology, there would be no need for mullahs and maulvis to learn rhetoric in Islamic schools -- this is done purely to increase Mullah skills at lying to non muslims on what their real intentions are.
Last edited by Rye on 31 Jan 2008 01:36, edited 1 time in total.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20907
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Postby Prem » 31 Jan 2008 01:17

.
There are many good Individual Muslims who are loyal to motherland and has sacrificed for India but as a community Islam demands loyality to Ummah and not to mother country. All these shenanigans to prove the Indian roots are just plain untrue.
Kwaja will serve his community better by being honest and telling the truth that there is nothing Indian about Islamic religious,social, cultural, philosophical practices . As convert to Non Indian dogma , all the major personalities and priniciples of Islamic people in India have alien roots . Indian is the Holy Land of Indics not of Islam and all that is Indic has the right to be predominant over non Indic ethos in India .


Return to “Strategic & Security Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests