Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 4

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JCage
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Post by JCage »

Shaurya, excellent post. I have started reading certain texts relevant to our heritage, and it surprises me as to the effort put into them. Junking them will be a mistake, imho. Another amazing thing (to me at least) is how common sense oriented some of the statements are- it can be pro and con (for those expecting automatic words of divinity). Interesting stuff. It seems many folks have been debating these very questions and have noted down what they understood.

BTW, to understand the kind of fellow Indians we are dealing with, thanks to 50 odd years of the Congress-Commie combine:

http://jagadguru.in/2007/12/24/offer-to ... president/
Dear Mr. Musharaff,

As a person of Indian origin, I want to make this offer to you. I know that your intelligence agency is trying to prick India by supporting violence in Kashmir. I also know that they will not rest until Kashmir cedes from India. I have a better proposal to you. If your country’s intelligence agencies give up any claim on Kashmir and stop supporting violent activities in Kashmir, I will do my best to convince the central government to offer you a state which has more money and reserves than Kashmir. If your intelligence agencies accept this proposal, I will try my best to persuade Indian government and people of India to give up on their claims on the state of Gujarat. I will make sure that Indians consider Gujarat to be part of Pakistani territory. You get a richer state than Kashmir and we will be left without a shame called Gujarat. It will then become your headache and Indians can recapture their pride in this world. Mr. Musharaff, please understand us. We don’t want to live with Cannibals and Neanderthals. Period. We tried to sanitize them through democratic means. But they are beyond repair by democracy. It seems Cannibals and Neanderthals are not affected by democracy. Under such a scenario, the only non violent way to get rid of Gandhiji’s birth place is by offering it as a part of a peace treaty with your country. If you want, please take the ownership rights for Gandhiji’s legacy too. We don’t mind it as long as you take the buffoons of Gujarat out of India. If only I had the ears of George Bush, I would have convinced him to send all the people in Gujarat to moon as a part of his NASA initiative. Unfortunately, I don’t have that privilege. So, I am just hoping that you will take Gujarat in lieu of the Kashmir. Even though this won’t send all the Cannibals and Neanderthals out of the planet earth altogether, it will, at least, save India from the shame of having to live along with these cannibals. Cannibals and Neanderthals aren’t totally unfamiliar to your country. Your intelligence agencies had supported them in Pakistan viz a viz Kashmir and Afghanistan issues. I hope you don’t mind managing some more of these characters in your country. I do know that you don’t respect the wishes of Pakistani people favorably and don’t offer them a chance to have democracy. At least, please consider the wishes of millions of Indians who want to export the fruits of democracy to your nation. It will give some legitimacy to your presidency while saving India from the lowly evolved species.

Jagadguru
These are our oh so secular, holier than thou Indians. I see useless idiots like these debating on various fora on the web and elsewhere, tut tutting Gujarat and Gujaratis.

Jai Ho, modern day Jaichands.
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Post by Prem »

Vsudhir, to protect Dharma sometimes you have to suspend Dharma under certain Kalyugi circumstances. IMHO, widen the open path with every possible mean . Every small victory in this path will create new fathers to join the carvan e,g Modi. Waiting for majority to join before taking initiative will take eternity which we mortals dont have plus path to change is always set by few . :)
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Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:The debate is not about, if these universal dharmic values will be lost, if we do not make use of our civilizational literature. They will not be but does that mean you throw out this literature (just like the Britsh did) because it is mumbo-jumbo to your ears?
Shaurya - I think we are talking past each other.

Let me digress briefly. Using a doctor analogy again, the doctor does not throw away his books. The books are an integral part of him, but once the knowledge of the books is internalised, books are not needed on a day to day basis, and when he advises a patient about say diabetes, the patient, having internalised the advice, does not need either doctor or books. End of digression.

We seem to be talking several different things here. If I may once again summarize what has been happening:

1) We set out to discuss Islamic extremism
2) No definitions or actions about that were forthcoming
3) All that we got was Hindu laments regarding something that was lost
4) I then felt that we should look at the issue of Islamic extremism from a dharmic viewpoint to see if anyone can say what is causing Hindu takleef
5) You asked "How can I be dharmic if I do not knwo my books"
6) I said that dharma still exists outside books. Use that knowledge to address the question of dharma vis a vis islamic extremism
7) You seem to have gone off the topic of Islamic extremism and dharma and are somehow imagining that I am trashing texts. That is both a false impresion and a digression.

I have been trying to focus the application of dharmic principles as understood by forum members at least in trying to get them to define what they find uncomfortable about Islam or Islamic extremism.

You seem to imagine that I am trashing texts. That is wrong and can I ask you to kindly step off that track for the derailment it is causing?

Going back to "the story so far" on this thread:

1) The thread seems to have moved from a forum member inability to state what the problem is regarding islamic extremism
to
2) A complaint that dharma is being lost, but an inability to say even what is being hurt or lost in terms of dharma by Islam or Islamic extremism
to
3) A complaint that Hindus texts are being forgotten and trashed.

So, it appears to me that the problem we have here has NOTHING to do with Islam or conversions. It is exactly as i had pointed out a year ago in the religion threads and later in india forum. The problem is a Hindu sense of loss of Hindu narrative. That makes this particular thread redundant.

If people have lost knowledge of their own dharma to such a deep extent that they are unable even to say how their dharma has been hurt, but are only able to say "dharma exists; look for it in our books" then I accept that a lot has been lost. One cannot protect a dharma that you don't even know about. One can only talk about vague takleef and curse everyone else.

Unfortunately a lot of forum members have waxed eloquent about loss of dharma. But when probed they are unable to say what that dharma is. If one is unable to differentiate one's dharma from one's elbow, how do we go about talking of specific examples of alleged loss of dharma caused by Islam.

The symptom of this sense of loss among Hindus is to curse everything that appears alien. Islam. Conversions. Whatever. When people are asked exactly what the problem may be - they are stumped. They speak of dharma. But they either don't even know what dharma is or are unable to say. The cursing is real. But with ignorance of dharma it is impossible to rationalize why anybody curses islam or conversions.

If one has lost one's dharma, the link is broken. Dead. If one cannot rely on one's upbringing, background and on one's senses and conscience to confidently state what dharma is, one is already an orphan. One will never figure out all those books in one's life at least in time to apply the principles to Islamic extremism or anything else . Might as well trash this thread. We will only have angry ignorant Hindus cursing everyone (including each other) and everything and dharma will have to arise out of that mess.

Dharma has to be a living vibrant entity among people practised in day to day life. That is the living continuous string of dharma that has come down the centuries. That was the string that all the books wrote about.

If that continuous stream has been lost, going to the books is only like digging up an archeologiical site. The books describe a dharma which is dead and will not bring the practice of dharma back to life. It has been lost as a living entity practised in day to day life. Like a dead city. Even cursing Islam will not revive it.

But I believe things are not so bad. just because forum members are unable to talk of dharma, it does not mean that it is not being practiced. Look back at your own home and childhood. You will find dharma there. As always, it is within oneself.
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Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote:If that continuous stream has been lost, going to the books is only like digging up an archeologiical site. The books describe a dharma which is dead and will not bring the practice of dharma back to life. It has been lost as a living entity practised in day to day life. Like a dead city. Even cursing Islam will not revive it.

But I believe things are not so bad. just because forum members are unable to talk of dharma, it does not mean that it is not being practiced. Look back at your own home and childhood. You will find dharma there. As always, it is within oneself.
I think we all know what Islamic Extremism is. You and I, both had a crack at it and do not see much divergence.

I agreed with you there is a deep sense of Hindu loss in a previous post.

I agree that Dharma has to be lived and if one stops living it, it is dead, regardless of what is in the books.

You seem to emphasize Dharma as something learnt in childhood as part of the upbringing and have loosely linked it to morals. I am saying it is more than that. To me, it is a science of the spirit. This spiritual knowledge is available to us as part of our literature (available in no other corresponding system). This knowledge should be cherished and taught. The complaint is, it is not being taught in the name of "secularism". It is being robbed from us and our children and is increasingly not part of the upbringing - leading to its death among people, who have ceased to live it.

Can someone still be Dharmic, without this literature, sure, but, why not use proven tools?

In the context of Islamism in India, the complaint is the state seeks to restrict this practise of Dharma to the private space. Where it is indeed not dead among a large portion of the population, who live it.

However, my argument from the very outset has been the practise of Dharma cannot be restricted in this manner through various means of law. That is a gross injustice to the practise of Hindu Dharma and a restriction on its practices in the public space robs the nation of the rich traditions, history, literature and spiritual character for the individual and the nation.

My only view is this artificial restriction does not help and once unleashed can contribute, to tackle Islamic Extremism in India.
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Post by Murugan »

Can someone still be Dharmic, without this literature, sure, but, why not use proven tools?
right, it is like going to school to study from teachers and refer to books. we can do it at home, our parents/eleders can teach us about the same thing. but still.

A doctor's son has to go to medical college if he wants to become a doctor and has to refer to books. He may be knowing all the intricacies and rules of the medical science being a son of a doctor and remaining associated with him supose, but he will need books, a teacher, a guru.


***

Although we may be born with the same kind of brains that school teachers or college professors posses, we still need their help to learn things like geography and physics. Left to ourselves, we could possibly figure out the intricacies of glacier formation or nuclear fusion... but we will need something to go ahead.

Spiritually (or dharmic-ally) what if divinity is in us and it's of the same order and quality that Christ and Krishna could boast of...

It is not a bad idea at all to follow whatever help us in becoming a christ/krishna or whatever..

(the above is taken from Mukul's Article)

Even lord krishna had to go to Sandipani and Rama had to go to Vashishtha for understanding dharma.
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Post by Sanku »

Gentlemen; and in particular Shiv --

There are few of Shiv's assertion that can/should be countered and has been by ShauryaT and Murugan; I just want to talk about those in my language and my way once more.

1) There is no specific items listed by BRFites as what is "extreme" about Islamic extremism -- in the previous pages we already had a list of folks talking about various facets of loss which are considered as per Dharmic view; in addition the list of extremism as per the secular view (use of violence or non constitutionally lawful methods to get what you want outside the constitution)

2) The Dharma does not need books or if it does it becomes a Islam like religion. Dharma must be a living thing independent of the books.

Yes in absolute terms Dharma exists in life outside books; however a persons life is never absolute and in "real" life; books and life mingle closely. I work as an engineering using laws of nature freely in life to do my work; however very so often I need to fall back on books to support my less than perfect abilities. Does that mean that science is dead if I say; hey I know how that derivation formula for Bernollui's principle work form pure Fluid mech. but I dont remember it let me look up the book.

Also look at the book is often said when you want to refer to general established truth without going through all the details; heck even on BRF the most heard line is; "hey noob look at the archives". Does that mean BRF is dead?

Nopesy nope.

As a study in spiritual science I don't see a dichotomy in leaning on the books and living a life.

In fact I see a dichotomy in living a life without leaning on books; that means you are at best an artisan and not a engineer; you know that a particular thing works but have no clue why or how or where to find the answers. I did this in a particular way since my dad taught me how to; I will persist doing it.

It is the books which link the practice to the continually evolving theory over millenniums.

with out the set of Hindu books; we are no better than first simple animist religions.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Couple of thoughts:

Dharma and Islam: I guess an analysis of each of the 114 suras or the ayah they contain in a Dharmic light is out of the question?
We’d probably be tripping over Dharma for another 10 pages before we even see there are suras or ayahs.
In any case, I am not sure if this thread is even a venue to attempt such a feat.
This is a religious battle unless done by intellectual - even there it can degenerate in a Monty Python style debate :mrgreen:

Dharma and “Common Secular Spaceâ€
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Post by Sanku »

Pulikeshi wrote:f this thread is even a venue to attempt such a feat.
This is a religious battle unless done by intellectual - even there it can degenerate in a Monty Python style debate :mrgreen:
Pulikeshi; IT IS a religious battle; no amount of wrapping it up in the framework of intellecutialization will cover that truth.

In fact; the fact that a real religious conflict is being papered over as a intellecutal difference in common space is also a large ground for hindu takleef.

Why do religion and intellecutalism have to be two different words? For a Hindu it never is. Intellect is what creates the religion or Dharma correct?
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Sanku wrote: Also look at the book is often said when you want to refer to general established truth without going through all the details; heck even on BRF the most heard line is; "hey noob look at the archives". Does that mean BRF is dead?
When a book is written and ideas contained therein can be edited, updated and even rejected, then there is no harm.
To this extent did the sages say "na vedam veda" (there is no final knowledge in the Vedas).

When we consider them the final book and the fount head of Hinduism we commit the adharma of being dhimmis at best.
In building upon the knowledge in the Vedas and refining and extending the knowledge contained there in we are making progress.

However, in today's India, there is little knowledge of the content and much less the intent of the Vedas or Upanishads, and there is even less patience to understand and counter adharmic ideas in the urban middle and upper classes.

This means, the indigent and semi-educated Hindu is naked in front of the aggression of the EJs.
The only means of response possible by this brute in his nakedness, is the violent lashing out of a cornered animal trying to defend his dharma.
Which immediately back fires, as disgusted middle class Hindus' renounce the act in horror. On the other hand, the Adharmics respond predictably, with their accusations confirmed, to the mean and low caliber of the Hindu religion and mind.
This cycle must be broken!
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Sanku wrote: Pulikeshi; IT IS a religious battle; no amount of wrapping it up in the framework of intellecutialization will cover that truth.

In fact; the fact that a real religious conflict is being papered over as a intellecutal difference in common space is also a large ground for hindu takleef.

Why do religion and intellecutalism have to be two different words? For a Hindu it never is. Intellect is what creates the religion or Dharma correct?
Fair point!

I meant "religious battle" (as in does not have an objective conclusion) not a literal one.
Religion and intellectualism are not different - they are complementary.
However, it is possible to intellectually dissect a religion and study it as a system, without personally subscribing entirely to all its tenets.
I meant intellectual in that detached sense.
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Post by shiv »

I think too much has been made out of my statements about Indian texts. My reference to the existence of dharma outside those texts has been used to create a strawman that has me dismissing the importance of those texts. That is rubbish - please stop.

But this has taught me one thing.

Knowledge of Dharma as elucidated in the texts has gone out of common circulation (and peoples memories) to such a degree that nobody on here at least is confidently able to state how Islam impinges on dharma without simultaneously suggesting "Let us also check out the books"

To that extent dharma is dead, and that poses a problem.

We want to deal with islamic extremism, and other problems "dharmically".

But nobody is confident of his own expertise in what dharma is . Everyone is saying "Let's look at the books and then see what we get". There is no expert (on here at least) who can apply the dharma in the books from memory and clearly sift dharma from adharma with respect to Islam.

The problem is like having a patient with cancer right now, and then putting a child in medical school so he can graduate and become a cancer specialist at some time in the future to treat the patient. But the patient needs attention NOW - not at some later date.

Dharma needs to be applied now to the problems faced in Indian society. But the furthest we can get is to say "We need to look up the books"

If it took us this long to figure out that we need to look at the books, when is anyone actually going to look at those books and then convince anyone about what is or is not dharma?

We are heading towards some kind of weird joke. We talk "Dharma Dharma Dharma"

Nobody has a clue as to what it is all about. Nobody can agree on anything except that what exists in the books must be taken into account.

Is this the kind of pathetic tamasha that ensured Hindus getting kicked up their musharrafs originally?

Hindus are a bunch of pseudos don't you think? They whine and rage at everything. They say their books will give the answers. But nobody has much of a clue about those books or how to apply them.

Is there NOBODY who can say what is dharmic or adharmic? wtf? How does anyone solve any problem in the absence of a readily available working grasp of the knowledge that one feels is required to solve the problem?
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Post by shiv »

Having made a provocative post, let me jog some deep inner memories of dharma that everyone must have:

http://www.pranami.org/dharma.shtml
http://www.gurbani.org/webart33.htm
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/dharma.htm
Last edited by shiv on 22 Jan 2008 19:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote:I think too much has been made out of my statements about Indian texts. My reference to the existence of dharma outside those texts has been used to create a strawman that has me dismissing the importance of those texts. That is rubbish - please stop.
.......
Hindus are a bunch of pseudos don't you think? They whine and rage at everything. They say their books will give the answers. But nobody has much of a clue about those books or how to apply them.

Is there NOBODY who can say what is dharmic or adharmic? wtf? How does anyone solve any problem in the absence of a readily available working grasp of the knowledge that one feels is required to solve the problem?
Doc, I am the one who made the association, based on my poor understanding of, where you are coming from. You have clarified and hence I will apologise, if I misrepresented your positions. Let us move on.

In the context of Islam, This was my attempt to define some of the objectionable elements on my understanding of Dharma - which is not based directly on the authority of some Hindu text. Maybe it is poor, if so, please enlighten.
The key tests are simple from a Dharmic view point, do the verses of the Quran and its expositions in the Sunnah agree with a majority of and main stream Dharmic view points and ways of life.

Does Islam seek to impose its will on others? Does it have the basic precepts of peace for one and all and the oneness of all beings? Or does it seek to divide man kind and beings into groups for purposes of imperialist conquest and enjoy loots of war?

Does it recognize the free will of man, to seek the truth, which was always there in the past, present and future or does it seek to lock the truth to a single book as expounded by a single prophet, to whom the truth was revealed and no one else?

Is the discovery of god only through a single book or is it a process of self discovery?

Does it believe in the plural ways for mankind to seek these truths and seek god and allow for differences in ways of life to coexist peacefully or does it seek to be exclusive in the matter?

Does it seek to claim a sense of completeness? Does it allow for new ways for the truths to reveal themselves?

Does an Islamic state treat ALL its subjects equally? Do they separate believers and non-believers and punish non-believers simply for their beliefs?

Does an Islamic system allow for rational discourse, that allows questions to be raised, without threat, physical, social or economic?

I am sure there are many more.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Self Deleted. Rudranath has done the needful. Thanks.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 22 Jan 2008 20:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rudranathh »

If useful keep this post, else please delete. Sorry for jumping in the discussion.

Rethinking Religion in India attracting scholars
Jan 22,2008
New Delhi, Jan.22 (ANI): The ongoing conference on Rethinking Religion in India is drawing an increasing number of participants, as was visible on Tuesday when several scholars and intellectuals from different parts of the country and abroad arrived here despite intense cold in the capital.

The second day commenced with Parallel Paper session I on Caste system and Indian religion 1 and followed by a Roundtable session participated by a number of scholars.
Research scholar Esther Bloch, as one of the speakers during the Parallel Paper session I on Caste system and Indian religion 1, said: "One of the problems of Hinduism has been felt (by Europeans) that you cannot explain Hinduism because it lacks one God, one holy book, one religion or one practice, etc. These things constitute or make them feel that their (kind of) framework is absent in India, is something what Europeans see."

Since it is not there the Europeans feel that something important is lacking in Indian society and that is why they feel that religion has 'degenerated'. Scholars question that if there is no structure-similar to that European society-- how can it exist. They perhaps wanted to replace something (structure) to make it exist in India, Esther Bloch added.
Professor Scaria Zacharia, School of Letters Mahatma Gandhi University, Kottayam, one of the speakers, said: "They (Europeans) often connect caste and religion. But relation between the two needs to be re-examined as a social process.

It (the European perspective) emphasizes on two occupational fixity and endogamy (marriage from the same race). This conclusion has to be understood and examined under everyday life of pre-colonial India. Society needs to be understood by the views or system existing in pre-colonial system."

"You should not be carried away by the colonial vision of caste system. We should re-examine the past records and practices in the light of contemporary experiences. Today, Jaati (caste) system is back in its real political face," Zacharia added.(ANI)
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Post by Rye »

Dharma seems to be another word for social ethics derived from existing social circumstances, but no matter what circumstance human behaviour is determined innately by tit-for-tat behaviour which seems to fall out of the social rule-of-thumb "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (known as the "golden rule" to in christian lingo).

Lot of "dharmic" behaviour seems to fall out of this social rule. Furthermore, this rule defines "good" and "bad" from the standpoint of the individual, as a guideline for interaction with others. It also advises doing bad things to bad people....just like the dharma explained by Krishna in the battlefield.

Today's Hindus have a choice of either saying "go read the book for dharma" or deriving those rules based on consensus and based on a common world view close to today's realities, and drawing from existing definitions of dharma....which one do folks think will be looked upon with less suspicion and has a better chance of success?
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:Today's Hindus have a choice of either saying "go read the book for dharma" or deriving those rules based on consensus and based on a common world view close to today's realities, and drawing from existing definitions of dharma....which one do folks think will be looked upon with less suspicion and has a better chance of success?
I do not think Hindus are looking for authoritive validation from books about Dharma. Our historical literature are useful tools. Period.

The concepts of social dharma (as Pullikeshi says it) fit for the modern world, which uses new tools, such as the constitution will have to be pondered upon and implemented by consensus, and equally important leadership.
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Post by svinayak »

Rudranathh wrote:If useful keep this post, else please delete. Sorry for jumping in the discussion.

Rethinking Religion in India attracting scholars
Jan 22,2008
History of Caste needs to be read to have a good discussion and not on personal observation.
HISTORY OF CASTE
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... wtopic=937
Rye
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Post by Rye »

How is caste discussion relevant to this discussion on whether there is a common view of dharma from perspective of hindus?
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Post by Rye »

I do not think Hindus are looking for authoritive validation from books about Dharma. Our historical literature are useful tools. Period.
Hindus have a larger problem in defining what their core beliefs are in the first place....dharma is supposed to be a the core of hinduism and yet
not many hindus can spell it out even if they are following those principles on a daily basis.
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Rye wrote:
I do not think Hindus are looking for authoritive validation from books about Dharma. Our historical literature are useful tools. Period.
Hindus have a larger problem in defining what their core beliefs are in the first place....dharma is supposed to be a the core of hinduism and yet
not many hindus can spell it out even if they are following those principles on a daily basis.
Absolutely correct Ryeji. Dharma is not just a dry repository of facts and a bank of knowledge. It is more of a mental state, that trains one to look at things in right perspective, with as much freedom as one desires.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:
I do not think Hindus are looking for authoritive validation from books about Dharma. Our historical literature are useful tools. Period.
Hindus have a larger problem in defining what their core beliefs are in the first place....dharma is supposed to be a the core of hinduism and yet
not many hindus can spell it out even if they are following those principles on a daily basis.
Practising and knowledgeable Hindus have no such trouble. Although these definitions are best expressed in the native and not on alien frameworks and terms.

So, the problem of Hindus stems from two things. Lack of knowledge and lack of practise. The state can play a role in the remedial of this situation by removing the anti Hindu laws and "secular" frameworks in the public space prevalent in the country that prevent the free practise of Dharma in its full glory.
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Post by svinayak »

ShauryaT wrote: Practising and knowledgeable Hindus have no such trouble. Although these definitions are best expressed in the native and not on alien frameworks and terms.

So, the problem of Hindus stems from two things. Lack of knowledge and lack of practise. The state can play a role in the remedial of this situation by removing the anti Hindu laws and "secular" frameworks in the public space prevalent in the country that prevent the free practise of Dharma in its full glory.
Indian education system has removed the Indian heritage and philosophy from the core curriculam.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Rye wrote: Hindus have a larger problem in defining what their core beliefs are in the first place....dharma is supposed to be a the core of hinduism and yet
not many hindus can spell it out even if they are following those principles on a daily basis.
Rye,

Let me try a (poor) analogy:

Say I walk up to a caged monkey in a zoo - and ask it "What is the social dynamic of monkeys in the wild?"
Monkey looks at me puzzled - I press on...
Monkey says, well it is acceptable for me to eat food when I am fed. Sometimes they let me accept food from strangers.
I am happy to play on the swing for the most part and I am safe here. Typcially, I do not think it is good to tease or beat up other monkeys in the cage.
However, they provoke me sometimes and it is getting bad.
(This is where Personal Dharma has failed, it has no answers for the individual on Social Dharma.
All the individual can do is ramble on about the great ancient traditions to be upheld.)

Some of the free roaming wild monkeys are becoming self aware and are begining to recognize the Social Dharma of their organization.
That they are a CSN as opposed to the gorillas who are organized as a HB, etc.
Perhaps, they are also thinking of new ways to improve the framework that organize Social Dharma.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but most average Hindus can be represented by the behavior of such a "caged monkey"
This monkey could not describe social dynamics of free roaming monkeys, much less its own.
All it knows is some of the brute caged monkeys beat it up a long time ago.
That incident has caused a psychological scar and now the monkey sometimes lashes out even if you offer it a banana!

We will have 10 more pages of what is Dharma and still get no where!
Most discussions get lost in emotions and has little to do with substance.

PS: What I am noticing is an intense craving to solidify a Dharmic Code or structure among Hindus -
but a failure to understand where to start or what to do.

I've had multiple friends who have asked me to list out a set of rules they can follow.
The monkey in the cage wants to break free, but it is demanding rules of engagement
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Post by JCage »

Acharya wrote:
ShauryaT wrote: Practising and knowledgeable Hindus have no such trouble. Although these definitions are best expressed in the native and not on alien frameworks and terms.

So, the problem of Hindus stems from two things. Lack of knowledge and lack of practise. The state can play a role in the remedial of this situation by removing the anti Hindu laws and "secular" frameworks in the public space prevalent in the country that prevent the free practise of Dharma in its full glory.
Indian education system has removed the Indian heritage and philosophy from the core curriculam.
Very true. What talk of dharma when the word itself is unknown to the vast majority of Indian kids? Earlier- kids used to be taught the Gita, selected bits of the Vedas, and received a robust theological grounding.

The British removed this and replaced it with a "modern" school system with both native teachers and Missionaries (hence the famed Convent schools so popular to the Indian middle class) who would teach an Anglo education in English.

Many generations of Indians have grown up without any basic knowledge of the scriptures to even understand what was written down, and hence to build upon that framework.

What has replaced the above is a modern "secular education" which is equal parts propoganda, myth, and truth.

But all are held equally true.

Given that, how can a consensus be reached on "dharma"?

As far back as when the Constitution was being drawn up, a tribal leader got up and said "there is no community in India which has been treated as badly as mine" and words to that effect. He had been educated by missionaries then went to England for higher studies. By that time itself, the seeds of the Aryan-Dravidian theory had been sowed assiduously and had taken root.

Today if you say "dharma"- it will be dismissed as an Aryan conspiracy by our Tamil politicians of the DMK cadre, the Sikh fundamentalists of a political group will call it a RSS- Arya Samaj plan to conquer their culture, seven out of ten "educated" Hindus will have a collective heart attack over this new threat to secularism by introducing another sanskrit term into the public space and the Islamists and EJ's- do we even need to imagine their reaction?

If the society itself is so propogandized, what talk of dharma by consensus?

IMHO, the best way for dharma to progress is for Hindus themselves to codify it and practise it.

One of which includes treating all fellow Hindus as equal. Even if they be leather workers, meat eaters etc etc. and lower castes.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

JCage wrote: One of which includes treating all fellow Hindus as equal. Even if they be leather workers, meat eaters etc etc. and lower castes.
Now the monkeys are becoming self aware! :mrgreen:

All Dharmics are equal and free - by nature noble (Arya).
As opposed to all Adharmics who are foolish followers of exclusive book knowledge -
that was obsolete the day it was written as it cannot contain any new knowledge.
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 22 Jan 2008 23:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ramana »

Pulikeshi, Yes the thousand years of colonial rule -first Islamic and then Western has caged the monkey and it is only after sixty years of freedom, of which only the last 18 were really economically free, it is realizing that it can be free as the rest of its species. However the long caging and being born in a cage is requiring it to ask for rules of uncaged life. Wait till it figures out it can make the rules just as the others do.

Remember you are on a train and next to the engine. The others are close to the caboose or guard's cabin or not even at the train station. You need to make them understand where they are and how far they have to move. Every visionary had to do that.

When BR was started how many of knew we would be discussing Indian interests like never before?

Inherently every Indic person of whatever religion knows that there are right and wrong things. That knowledge of right from wrong is Dharma.
Also rural folks have a better sense of this right and wrong and it is stated in Telugu as "Idi dharamam kadu"- "This is not Dharma" Its a long list and may be a collation might clear up whats Dharmic and whats not.
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Post by ShauryaT »

JCage wrote:Given that, how can a consensus be reached on "dharma"?
What you say are true words. This is why, along with seeking to reach consensus, I have stressed the role of leadership. Consensus alone would not do it.
IMHO, the best way for dharma to progress is for Hindus themselves to codify it and practise it.
A subtle distinction. We need dharmic values/systems in our codes but not codify Dharma itself.
One of which includes treating all fellow Hindus as equal. Even if they be leather workers, meat eaters etc etc. and lower castes.
Not so easy friend, the vegeterians and Satvic food groups purists are not going to give it to you so easily. You will have to convince them that meat eating, especially the modern industrialized farming of animals, birds and fishes, is consistent with Dharmic values? I will relish this debate :lol:

I am not disagreeing, even if meat eating is a tamasvic activity, no excuse for discrimination on that basis. Those practices and the categorizations of people as Mlechas will have to go.
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Post by Rye »

Consensus and Leadership are all excuses to delay the obvious first step -- write down what dharma means to living, practising hindus starting with the oldest generation first, as they have the concepts all right (this generation will be no more soon and we will have lost one valuable resource). As they say, "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself".

JMTs
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:Consensus and Leadership are all excuses to delay the obvious first step -- write down what dharma means to living, practising hindus JMTs
Not sure what do you mean, write down...This stuff is already written and widely available in the private space.

If we are looking for some kind of a single version, written code of Dharma, it ain't happening.

Although, no disrespect to anyone and I usually love these "Dharma for Dummies" would be a great sell. :lol:

We need dharmic ways to be taught in the public space, so that more and more can live it. High time, our kids be not left at the mercy of the knowledge, inclination, resources and priority of the parents, in a competitive world.
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Post by Prem »

Pulikeshi wrote:
JCage wrote: One of which includes treating all fellow Hindus as equal. Even if they be leather workers, meat eaters etc etc. and lower castes.
Now the monkeys are becoming self aware! :mrgreen:

All Dharmics are equal and free - by nature noble (Arya).
As opposed to all Adharmics who are foolish followers of exclusive book knowledge -
that was obsolete the day it was written as it cannot contain any new knowledge.
New Veda needs to be written. New knowledge have been accumulated since the last one was "released". :idea:
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Post by Rye »

SharyaT wrote:
If we are looking for some kind of a single version, written code of Dharma, it ain't happening.
Sorry to hear that. I guess Hindus ain't going to stop whining and moaning any time soon about how unfair the planet is treating all of them.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:SharyaT wrote:
If we are looking for some kind of a single version, written code of Dharma, it ain't happening.
Sorry to hear that. I guess Hindus ain't going to stop whining and moaning any time soon about how unfair the planet is treating all of them.
What are you proposing for you have not given a clarification by what you mean by writing down Dharma et al.

Let us hear it straight and simple Rye, for I have no clue on what you are trying to say.
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Post by Rye »

Let us hear it straight and simple Rye, for I have no clue on what you are trying to say.
If Hindus cannot agree on what Hindu Dharma is, and that is what you have said a few times, then it is highly unlikely that they are going to be able to convince themselves of who they are, leave alone the non hindus.

The reason for this is that the lack of such a hindu POV leaves a vaccum for others to fill in with their own views of what they think hinduism is all about.
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Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:
Although, no disrespect to anyone and I usually love these "Dharma for Dummies" would be a great sell. :lol:

We need dharmic ways to be taught in the public space, so that more and more can live it. High time, our kids be not left at the mercy of the knowledge, inclination, resources and priority of the parents, in a competitive world.
It is taught. In public. In school books as well. In the form of moral stories. Indian folk tales and childrens' stories frequently carry a moral lesson to take homre based on dharma.

Dharmic principles are for most part secular and carry no "identifiable god" connotation. Pick up as many Indian children's story books as youcan and you have dharma for dummies.
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Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote: I am not disagreeing, even if meat eating is a tamasvic activity, no excuse for discrimination on that basis. Those practices and the categorizations of people as Mlechas will have to go.
Meat eating is Rajasic food - the food of kings.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:
Let us hear it straight and simple Rye, for I have no clue on what you are trying to say.
If Hindus cannot agree on what Hindu Dharma is, and that is what you have said a few times, then it is highly unlikely that they are going to be able to convince themselves of who they are, leave alone the non hindus.

The reason for this is that the lack of such a hindu POV leaves a vaccum for others to fill in with their own views of what they think hinduism is all about.
I do not know, why do you say the former. It is not that Hindus cannot agree on what Hindu Dharma is. The basics to learn them are all there. The modern applications will evolve from these well evolved basics represented in our literature and heritage. That part is crystal clear, for those who seek it. It is there in spades.

The disagreement among Hindus is the role of Hindu dharma in the public space. It is the macuaylized ruling elite, who have allowed others to define Hinduism for us and have succumbed to the minority veto, resulting in a handicap to the idea of India and a common identity.

We need to cure our macuaylized brothers and sisters of their fallacies and show them the light.
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Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote:
ShauryaT wrote: I am not disagreeing, even if meat eating is a tamasvic activity, no excuse for discrimination on that basis. Those practices and the categorizations of people as Mlechas will have to go.
Meat eating is Rajasic food - the food of kings.
I stand corrected.
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Post by shiv »

Rye wrote:Dharma seems to be another word for social ethics derived from existing social circumstances, but no matter what circumstance human behaviour is determined innately by tit-for-tat behaviour which seems to fall out of the social rule-of-thumb "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (known as the "golden rule" to in christian lingo).

Lot of "dharmic" behaviour seems to fall out of this social rule. Furthermore, this rule defines "good" and "bad" from the standpoint of the individual, as a guideline for interaction with others. It also advises doing bad things to bad people....just like the dharma explained by Krishna in the battlefield.

Today's Hindus have a choice of either saying "go read the book for dharma" or deriving those rules based on consensus and based on a common world view close to today's realities, and drawing from existing definitions of dharma....which one do folks think will be looked upon with less suspicion and has a better chance of success?
AND
Pulikeshi wrote:
Rye wrote: Hindus have a larger problem in defining what their core beliefs are in the first place....dharma is supposed to be a the core of hinduism and yet
not many hindus can spell it out even if they are following those principles on a daily basis.
Rye,

Let me try a (poor) analogy:

Say I walk up to a caged monkey in a zoo - and ask it "What is the social dynamic of monkeys in the wild?"
Monkey looks at me puzzled - I press on...
Monkey says, well it is acceptable for me to eat food when I am fed. Sometimes they let me accept food from strangers.
I am happy to play on the swing for the most part and I am safe here. Typcially, I do not think it is good to tease or beat up other monkeys in the cage.
However, they provoke me sometimes and it is getting bad.
(This is where Personal Dharma has failed, it has no answers for the individual on Social Dharma.
All the individual can do is ramble on about the great ancient traditions to be upheld.)

Some of the free roaming wild monkeys are becoming self aware and are begining to recognize the Social Dharma of their organization.
That they are a CSN as opposed to the gorillas who are organized as a HB, etc.
Perhaps, they are also thinking of new ways to improve the framework that organize Social Dharma.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but most average Hindus can be represented by the behavior of such a "caged monkey"
This monkey could not describe social dynamics of free roaming monkeys, much less its own.
All it knows is some of the brute caged monkeys beat it up a long time ago.
That incident has caused a psychological scar and now the monkey sometimes lashes out even if you offer it a banana!

We will have 10 more pages of what is Dharma and still get no where!
Most discussions get lost in emotions and has little to do with substance.

PS: What I am noticing is an intense craving to solidify a Dharmic Code or structure among Hindus -
but a failure to understand where to start or what to do.

I've had multiple friends who have asked me to list out a set of rules they can follow.
The monkey in the cage wants to break free, but it is demanding rules of engagement
Both good posts.

Even If everyone was personally dharmic an extra social code would still be needed as a "social code" to mediate in conflicts between people who were behaving in a dharmic way but were at odds.

India has an India constitution and penal code that already sets that out so part of the need for a social code is currently in place even if we may disagree with aspects of it.

We have already seen that the "state is secular" - and follows a secular constitution and penal code.

We have also seen that it is the "public space" (as aptly described by Pulikeshi) where secularism cannot work Hindus are for large part followers of dharma which again, for large part is secular.

There are many principles of dharma that can be and are easily followed by Muslims without conflict. However there are some areas that are adharmic. In the public space this is bound to cause conflict. We need to define these clearly because the "takleef" that Hindus feel is not straight dharma vs adharma. It is often a grievance from a psychological scar due to history in which anything Hindus has been lampooned, ridiculed and raped.

We need to understand that the sense of loss we feel, because of loss of continuity and Macaulay-related disruption does not carry over as pointless adharmic anger at Muslims where conflict does not exist.

Communal tension is not always dharma vs adharma but old grievance vs small provocation.

Muslim is seen to wave a green flag with crescent moon in a cricket match. A "Pakistani flag"

"Maaro saalon ko!" is the battle cry because dharma requires the defence of your nation against traitors.

It is taken as a given that a green flag with crescent moon in an Indian Muslim crowd is a Pakistani flag and indicates Muslim traitors, who must be eliminated.

Why are Muslims traitors?

1) Their forefathers raped and pillaged India and tore down temples
2) They are adharmic - they will attack non Muslims. They have no respect for what is sacred.
3) They are cruel killers of gentle animals
4) They are a violent bunch
5) They tore our matrubhoomi apart to form Pakistan
6) Those bloody Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh are still proliferating and are a source of terrorism

"Maaro saalon ko!"

So simple dharma-adharma balancing will not serve as redressal for historic conflict.

We need to ask what we seek to achieve using dharma.

I think Pulikeshi put it best when he said that that dharma should be used in its original sense - in which it seeks to preserve a harmonious society.

Check the definition:
http://www.pranami.org/dharma.shtml
The word Dharma is derived from the root DHR- to hold- and its etymological meaning is 'that which holds' this world, or the people of the world, or the whole creation from the microcosm to the macrocosm. It is the eternal Divine Law of the Lord. The entire creation is held together and sustained by the All-powerful Law of God. Practice of Dharma, therefore, means recognition of this Law and abidance by it.

That which brings well-being to man is Dharma. Dharma supports this world. The people are upheld by Dharma. That which accrues preservation of beings is Dharma. Dharma leads to eternal happiness and immortality.

That which is Dharma is verily the Truth. Therefore, whosoever speaks the truth is said to speak Dharma, and whosoever speaks Dharma is said to speak the truth. One and the same thing becomes both.

Dharma includes all external deeds, as well as thoughts and other mental practices which tend to elevate the character of a man. Dharma comes from the Divine and leads you to the Divine.
Last edited by shiv on 23 Jan 2008 07:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prem »

This may be OT, but we should take a look at the Code of Conduct instructed by Last Sikh Guru Sri Gobind Singh Ji. It can be used as a platform for codfifying the Dharmic acar for average dharmic fellow lost in wood or stuck in cage. By virtue of common streak/ heritage along with the sancion of spiritual authority it holds great potential for social binding and awarenes seeked by many of us.
Dharma is Dharma , eternal laws, it cannot be divided into Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Jain Dharmas. We need to draw from all these indic spirtiual wells and make new Dharmic Zam Zam cola .
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