Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 5

farazhussain
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Postby farazhussain » 06 Feb 2008 20:48

First, admin saheb , thanks for your very understanding comment. I was indeed inundated with questions.

I've seen some of the questions above (but not all) since I posted last time, and I'll try to answer them sometime later today or tomorrow.

I think its also better for me to answer briefly, because I can't satisfy most people and the more effort I put in in answering, the more things I bring up and it becomes longer and invites even more questioning.

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Postby SwamyG » 06 Feb 2008 21:06

Shiv wrote:No Indian Muslim can survive on this forum under such intense interrogation unless he is extremely thick skinned. I hope forum members will remember this the next time someone comes along and asks the question "Why are there no Indian Muslims on here?".

There are interesting inferences that I draw from the above paragraph. From the questioning perspective, the questions posed could be fair or unfair. As the topic of "Islamism" on this forum has been dissected in several avatars of the thread, I assume the forum's questions have become refined by the analysis of several brain-storming sessions. It is my assumption that the process would have weeded out several unfair accusations, assumptions and questions.

That brings to the answering part. Do the Indian Muslims feel they can not answer these questions to the satisfaction of the questioners (who by this time are seated firmly with pre-determined conclusions) and hence see no point. Or by virtue of answering them, they are coming out of their comfort zone and causing ripples in their own heart? It could be discomfort or simple fear of losing some beliefs that they have cherished for long long time.

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Postby pradeepe » 06 Feb 2008 21:34

farazhussain wrote:I think its also better for me to answer briefly, because I can't satisfy most people and the more effort I put in in answering, the more things I bring up and it becomes longer and invites even more questioning.


Farazji, its not just a one way street. I assume you have questions too.
An online forum is a good way to put PCness aside and ask the tough
ones.

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Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2008 04:50

SwamyG wrote:As the topic of "Islamism" on this forum has been dissected in several avatars of the thread, I assume the forum's questions have become refined by the analysis of several brain-storming sessions. It is my assumption that the process would have weeded out several unfair accusations, assumptions and questions.

That is the whole point. We have a large number of members who have honed their arguments and thoughts to such a fine degree that there is not much for anyone with a different view to talk.

I believe that if we need to look at an Indian Muslim viewpoint, we need to "reset" our thinking process into a slightly different mode.

Since we are so good at making our own arguments - nobody who disagrees is going to survive very long, and anyone who gets angry gets eliminated. So some kind of change of plan will be needed if we want an Indian Muslims viewpoint.

It my be worth just listening and not probing merely to demolish a man's arguments. You may want to know an Indian Muslim viewpoint. Knowing a viewpoint is not the same as taking that viewpoint, demolishing it and trying to prove the correctness of one's own viewpoint which is what we have become good at on here.

There is another point. Are we listening to our own statistics "dharmically"?

If you take all Hindus - you will find that only a small percentage of Hindus are anglophone+educated to take part on this board. Let me call the proportion of Hindus who are capable of participating as X percent. In theory the same statistic - i.e the proportion of anglophone+ educated Muslime who are capable of taking part on this board is likely to be a smaller figure. That means the value of X for Hindus is likely to be larger than the value of X for Indian Muslims because of a lower overall literacy figure. (arbitrary example: 5% of all Indian Hindus may be educated+anglophone while only 3% of all Indian Muslims may be that way)

And from that percentage "X" you have to hive off a large proportion of Hindus and Muslims who are not interested in coming on here, or who develop a preconceived notion that this board is not right for them (for whatever reason)

That would leave us with a miniscule number of Muslims who would want to post on this sort of thread and it would be so easy to drive those off with all our fine tuned arguments wouldn't it . How about that for a "great exchange of views?"

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 08:06

If you are pretending that only muslims can care for Sania, that certainly says a lot about your mindset...your slip is showing.


I'm saying there are many who don't care an iota about Muslim women (or Muslims men) and bring up issues like the Sania issue only for the sake of furthering their arguments.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 08:23

MIM, AIMPLB, JeI-H, IUML do have a habbit of making statements and may I add stupid statements. In the world of Indian muslims there isn't any organization that can counter them.


Well all those organizations speak for themselves or only of their few constituents. Its obvious that they can't speak for all Indian Muslims.

About countering them, there is criticism of all of them by various Muslims I meet. Muslims in Delhi criticize JeI -H, AIMPLB, and Muslims from Hyd criticize MIM all the time. I don't know even a singly Mallu Muslim male, but I'm sure there are all sorts of opinions on IUML.

For example just see the reactions from hindu community in case of RSS/VHP assault on an art student in baroda, Gujrat.

Compare it with taslima nasreen incident in hyderabad in Aug 2007. Except for Javed Akhtar saying something no one else from IM had any power to speak for her. Openly MPs of MIM said we are muslims first and then Indians. What did other muslim do to condemn them ? Nothing.


My friend, "other Muslims" are just going on with their lives. And I don't even know details of this Hyd incident. I just heard that MIM goon assaulted her in Hyd by throwing bouquets at her, etc.

Here's my take though: She should file a complaint to the police and they should take actions against the accused. Then they should be tried and the court's decision is binding.

But I, or other Indian Muslims, are not responsible for what the MIM's members do or say. And you are talking to me, I know about MIM. Most Muslims in Delhi (even educated ones), have no clue about what the MIM is and where it is what it does, etc.

As I said, people are just going about their normal lives. This lady has been in India many years now and there was no problem until recently. I don't even know how this came up. I hope it had never come up and that it stays calm.

But it is unreasonable to put me or other Indian Muslims to test constantly.

In any case, we can never satisfactorily pass these "loyalty" tests. :)

This is why non muslims in various countries have to take up issues with muslim organization and their activities.


That's good and that's what should be done. If they indulge in criminal activities, the law of the land shall prevail and they should pay for it.

I will not take time out to criticize them every time they do something wrong. I will not defend them when they are punished for their criminal actions.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 08:34

Far from any muslim bashing, Shourie, was pointing to some fundamental issues with the entire structure of Islam. At the end of the day, he is asking that muslims will have to treat the Quran just as another book - the question is, when (not if) will the muslims start doing so and use their heads and reason as the primary measure of discourse.


Muslims believe the Quran to be the final divine revelation, so I don't think they will treat it as just another book. When they do that, they would no more be Muslims (by definition), and I don't know when this will happen.

How many Hindus do you know of, who clamor for the right to have multiple wives becuase Lord Krishna had that many? He would be considered a wacko by today's norms.

None.

And I know of no Muslims either. Many Muslims believe that the Quran permits polygamy (although there are some who say no), but they don't think it is in general required.


There are certain concepts in Islam and the overall message seems to be: Islam claims to be complete and completed, It is exclusive, It sanctions violence and treachery, it discrimnates, it is totalitarian.


Well the Quran is supposed to be the final divine revelation (it mentions Torah, injeel, zuboor as those before). So complete in that sense. I don't know what you mean by exclusive. I don't really know how you expect me to respond to the last part...

Can you speak to these concepts, if we are mistaken, and if you agree, then what is the way out for Muslims, from the clutches of Islam?


You mean what I suggest is the way for Muslims not to remain Muslims anymore?

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 08:53

Err. Pardon me if i am incorrect. But, did hindus without provocation cause "gujarat." I am surprised that none of the indians here challenged you on such a blatant falsehood.


Did you even read my post? And what falsehood?

The huge step backwash was your co-religionists butchering about 60 hindus (men, women and children as i recall) in the most inhumane manner possible. Then further compounding this horrific crime by preventing emergency services (including firefighers and EMS) from approaching the burning train.


That's a serious criminal action for which they should be punished. However, killing other Gujarat Muslims who had nothing to do with it and didn't even know it was going to happen, is not reasonable, IMO.

That was the "huge step backward" for which moslems were solely responsible. And a lot of moslems, including yourself, are erring on "that" issue, IMO of course.
All Muslims? No. Those who did the particular act are responsible but others are not.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 08:59

So, the cause of your (a moslem's) alienation is the USA because it was attacked by moslems and another cause of alienation is hindus because they got barbarically burned along with their families in a train in Gujarat.


I never blamed USA and Hindus for my alienation.

And you blame the USA/Hindus for that?? It was not clear if you meant that your "alienation" was due to the fact that moslems committed horrific acts causing the civilized world to view moslems with suspicion? Or was your alienation caused by the USA/Hindus in Gujaret?


This is what I wrote:
My friend, Muslims are moving on, sending their kids to school, even college, constantly interacting with Hindus, etc. I grew up in Lucknow and it was very integrated and I didn't really feel alienated or different until 9/11, Gujarat, etc.


When did I blame anything on USA and Hindus? Please read my comments earlier and try to follow what the context is. I was saying that I did not feel much different from others in my school/college until those events happened.

I never blamed anyone for anything.


TIA.


?

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Postby archan » 07 Feb 2008 09:03

farazhussain wrote:


In any case, we can never satisfactorily pass these "loyalty" tests. :)


Aisa nahi hai bhai..
Like Shiv said, the people who post here are a tiny fraction of the total Indian non-Muslim population. I know some have come down hard on you but things will cool down I believe. As for loyalty, every Indian trusts Mr. Kalam a 100%. There are few people who command more respect today than he does. In fact I believe most Indians would have loved for him to have a second tenure. Unfortunately Madam wanted a yes-man (or a yes-woman) in the office and Mr. Kalam is too dignified a person to fight such petty political battles. There are other examples too which I am sure you know. It is not a question of 'loyalty'. But there will always be people who will assault your Muslim-ness, someone's Bengali-ness, someone's Tamil-ness yada yada. Isolated incidents cannot be taken as a signal of general trends. I know Indian Muslims are going through testing times but both communities have to realize that there is no other way but to get along. And both communities have to give some and build trust. What you hear on this board is primarily what the Muslim community is not doing and needs to do. Of course, the same can be said about the Hindu community. However some of the 'efforts' that the current govt. makes only alienates the Hindus and makes them feel that unfair 'appeasement' is being done.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 09:04

However, i disagree with first part. Their word, as the custodians of your holy places, carries a lot of clout in the islamic world


No. I don't think so. I have met Indian Muslims from all places and KSA has by and large no influence on them. And I have also now met Muslims from across the world and I feel the same, with Arabs being the exception perhaps.

Especially now that they have funded some $20-30 billion worth of wahhabi mosques all over the world (including a significant number in India as one poster cited sometime ago).

What "Wahabbi mosque" is there in India? Please also do provide links regarding this "$20-30 billion worth of wahhabi mosques all over the world", if possible.

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Postby Pulikeshi » 07 Feb 2008 09:06

Faraz,

Welcome the forum and the discussion.
Perhaps you can give us a perspective that was lacking many moons ago when I started to follow this thread.
Seems much has happened since I last peeked :shock:

In any case, we can never satisfactorily pass these "loyalty" tests. :)


Lite le, no one is asking for such tests here.
Just some pent up arguments that have collected dust as no new thoughts came across to challenge them.
It is refreshing to see someone taking up the challenge.

Remember it is a marathon, not a sprint - take your time and as a batsmen you can choose which balls to play and which ones to ignore.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 09:09

But you know what, this Gujrat thing has gone to a limit that many of us don't even bother. Let them cry, but they should know that if they do another massacre, they will have a response that they will regret for years, like this one.


"They" who? Will all Indian Muslims have to pay for something done by some Indian Muslims?

So Sir, does this mean you do in fact support the killings of those Muslims who were targeted in the post-Godhra Gujarat violence because it makes us "regret for years"?

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ram.

Postby asprinzl » 07 Feb 2008 09:09

Folks, the way the barrage of questions from all angles bombarding this poor guy, most people would split from the scene. This Faraz guy should be praised for sticking around. Also, folks this is regarding India. If you bring up Saudi Arabia, the debate will go on and on and on without any end in sight.
I want to write some more...but not now.
Avram

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 09:20

Sorry Mr Hussain but you are twisting my question and answering a different one. No one wants to emulate KSA for its nation state, and that was not what I asked. However KSA claims that it emulates Islam.

What muslims want to do is emulate Islam; KSA is the perfect Islam place.


KSA is not the "perfect Islam place". I have never seen any educated Muslim praise the KSA for anything except for their roads maybe.

What it does it does in the name of Islam.

Well it can do anything it like and claim anything. That doesn't mean we agree with it. And now that I actually met a Saudi guy sometime back, I did put all these questions to him. He actually said Saudi laws are not all based on Islam and that its okay to have laws of non-Islamic nature (on the issue of women driving for example).

You didnt answer the question I asked.

How can you support Islam and condemn SaudiA if they are both inextricably linked. You say they are not -- I and Surender provided numerous examples of how it still is.


Well we try to follow Islam. We can condemn KSA or any other country, if they do something wrong. KSA is no authority on Islam. It, or any other country, may claim anything, but that's not binding on Muslims.

Sorry I will have to go back again and reread yours are Mr. Surinder's posts...



What else is a nations behavior expect sum of its citizens behavior?


No. Not in the case of KSA.


Why not?


Well because the KSA regime is not representative of what the people want. That's true of most of Arabia.

Of course, even a representative Government won't make the place "civilized" and modern anytime soon..

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 09:29

Sanku wrote:
farazhussain wrote:
I think thins are on the right path. But Gujarat is a huge step backward. And a lot of people in this forum are erring on that issue, IMO.



Translation -- India was well on its way to becoming a Islamic country from a mildly Islamic one today. Gujarat threw a spanner in the works.


I was saying that Muslims are already interacting more and more with Hindus and are integrating increasingly and joining the national mainstream.

There has been a setback to that.

I think no Muslim thinks that those responsible for Godhra kand shouldn't be punished. But killing others who were not responsible for that incident is not fair and harmful. Some here are saying that that's good for a deterrent since it "teaches Muslims a lesson".

In my opinion, those who are culprits should be swiftly punished, but not others. What the violence has done is led to Muslim alienation. Even those Muslims in other cities who had moved out of the ghettos have now come back.

At least in Delhi, where the "Muslim area" like Okhla are the worst off in every way, the price of land is very high due to high demand from Muslims...

Folks just don't realize how important Gujarat was.


Was it a good thing overall?

Blaming others for Islams own ills and defending it is not the hall mark of a liberal.


When did I blame anyone for "Islams own ills"?

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 09:32

Buddy you are a novelty here. The problem is really that what you need to do is not be in denial; that will attract even more posts countering you.

Second; I think as IM you have to listen; why are these questions being thrown? What are the facts people are talking of; don't be in denial and then you will find that you will fit right in.


Denial about what? What is the truth that I denied?

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Postby surinder » 07 Feb 2008 09:36

shiv wrote:I believe that if we need to look at an Indian Muslim viewpoint, we need to "reset" our thinking process into a slightly different mode.

Since we are so good at making our own arguments - nobody who disagrees is going to survive very long, and anyone who gets angry gets eliminated. So some kind of change of plan will be needed if we want an Indian Muslims viewpoint.


Shiv,

I am sorry, this sounds like we have to walk on egg shells to get the Indian Muslims to participate here. Why should we do it? This is no different than what we see in what we disparagingly call Pseudo-seculars or DDM. Why shoud we want to treat Muslims differently? Why should we have to be careful and treat them with kids gloves?

Our behaviour patters should be good enough already to be good enough for everyone. Why do we need to change, modify, and contort our expressions to make it acceptable for IM's to participate here. Presumably their interest in India's defence is no less than that of Hindus.

shiv wrote:If you take all Hindus - you will find that only a small percentage of Hindus are anglophone+educated to take part on this board. Let me call the proportion of Hindus who are capable of participating as X percent. In theory the same statistic - i.e the proportion of anglophone+ educated Muslime who are capable of taking part on this board is likely to be a smaller figure. That means the value of X for Hindus is likely to be larger than the value of X for Indian Muslims because of a lower overall literacy figure. (arbitrary example: 5% of all Indian Hindus may be educated+anglophone while only 3% of all Indian Muslims may be that way)
...
That would leave us with a miniscule number of Muslims who would want to post on this sort of thread and it would be so easy to drive those off with all our fine tuned arguments wouldn't it . How about that for a "great exchange of views?"


Even if the muslim X is somehwat less than the Hindu X, the IM participation here is much less than that. Mind you, IM participation in web site that deal with IM-specific issues is quite fine. Given that India faces massive Islam-inspired violence & terrorism, Muslims can play a pivotal role in India's defence. Indian Muslims could have provided the best the best PR defence of India on the Kashmir issue. But I don't see them here. They are in their own caccoons showing a disinterest in matters that affect India's security.


PS: I remember in a University in pardes (which I shall not name) the issue of Kashmir was discussed in a big debate. There were many Indians and many Pakis. Many Americans were there (some experts, some curious learners). There was a panel of experts of Pakis and Indians with big-name standing. As you might expect tempers flew---Indians defending India & Pakis defending Paki point of view on Kashmir. What were the Indian Muslims doing? Well, the Kashmiri IM's were with the Pakis (talking of Indian atrocities). The non-Kashmiri IM's were cursing India for Gujrat (in a debate that had nothing to do with Gujrat). That is sad---IM's could have mounted good defence of India. But didn't. The Sikhs were not complaining about 1984, by the way. The Brahmins and Dalits and Banias were not washing dirty laundry of India there. They were robustly defending India.

PPS: Some IM's cite Gujrat as a big break point for them. But before Gujrat happened, there wasn't any massive work done by IM's for India's case on Kashmir either.

In general the IM view points seem to have general tendency to emasculate India. Alliance with Israel and USA is opposed. Robust military action on Pakistan is opposed. Support of useless Arabs is encouraged.

Raju

Postby Raju » 07 Feb 2008 09:42

faraz, one piece of advice should you choose to heed. There is no need to reply to everyone, be selective in choosing whom to reply. This doesn't mean you need to remain in the comfort zone but venture out selectively.

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Postby rkrao » 07 Feb 2008 09:52

farazhussain wrote:
Err. Pardon me if i am incorrect. But, did hindus without provocation cause "gujarat." I am surprised that none of the indians here challenged you on such a blatant falsehood.


Did you even read my post? And what falsehood?

The huge step backwash was your co-religionists butchering about 60 hindus (men, women and children as i recall) in the most inhumane manner possible. Then further compounding this horrific crime by preventing emergency services (including firefighers and EMS) from approaching the burning train.


That's a serious criminal action for which they should be punished. However, killing other Gujarat Muslims who had nothing to do with it and didn't even know it was going to happen, is not reasonable, IMO.

That was the "huge step backward" for which moslems were solely responsible. And a lot of moslems, including yourself, are erring on "that" issue, IMO of course.
All Muslims? No. Those who did the particular act are responsible but others are not.


Dear Faraz
Please tell me
When more than 60 innocent people were burnt alive say by ONLY few people AND Fire Fighters were blocked by MANY people who should be picked and punished.
Dont you think its the whole community involved in making this coward incendent a sucessful one...
So want us to pick and punish only those Muslims who did Parliament attack,akshardaam,Varnasi attacks etc etc etc and keep waiting till the next muslim does another attach once he gets interest in getting 72s. and again lose some more valuable kaffirs. Boss in real world it will never happen,,,

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Postby surinder » 07 Feb 2008 09:54

Faraz,

I put many questions to you and you answered. I personally enjoy debating, even if it is rough and virulent. I would have liked to continue to debate you. But you are being bombarded from left and right by dozens here. It just does not feel good to me join that chorus. I feel bad about it. So I will not continue the debate with you, although I did want to.

I will however post general stuff (not directed at you). You can choose to ignore or answer, but they are not directed to you.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 09:54

prashanth wrote:As far as i know, Allah is the god of Muslims and Prophet Mohammed is a human being who spoke on behalf of Allah. Now, who among the above two do Muslims revere more? Please reply.


Well Muhammad is just a messenger (last messenger). He brought God's message, but he is no different from other messengers and is merely a human Prophet.

But one thing is very apparent. Quran, as we all know, was written by the Prophet, alone. It is very likely that he might have erred in many aspects. Also many Islamic codes and practices which might have been suitable in 7th century Arabia, need not be suitable today. Why do all Muslims still follow something that was written by ONE person long back.

Because they believe that Quran is the divine word revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel :)


Why is every Muslim compelled to unconditionally follow the Prophet if he has to please divine Allah?

Well they don't have to do everything Muhammad or other Prophets did. But their lives are supposed to be an example since they were God's messengers..

From the look of things it appears that Muslims follow the Prophet more than Allah himself.

Well actually no. Quran is believed to be the word of God, which is what Muslims refer to all the time.

Hadith are collections describing Muhammad's life etc., but there is no consensus on them and continuous bickering over what happened what didn't happen, which part is true, which one is made up etc. While they are traditionally considered part of "Islamic literature", they are not word of God and most don't quote them directly and follow them like they do for Quran.

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Postby surinder » 07 Feb 2008 10:00

If we stick with pure logic, then this is the way Gujrat thing goes.

60 Hindus were brutally burnt alive in Godhra. Only those Muslims who did that act are responsible. Only those Muslims who blocked fire trucks are responsible. No one else should be blamed or defamed. Those not responsible should not be punished in any way.

1000 Muslims died in riots after that. Only those Hindus that did that act of killing them are responsible. No one else should be blamed or defamed. Those not responsible should not be punished in any way.


With this logic, no Muslim should bring up the Gujrat riots, since the listener may not have been a guilty Hindu to the riots. Also Muslims should not ghettoize and feel alienated because of that since the only guilty people are the ones did those riots. Innocent Hindus should not have to bear the consequences of an alienated Muzlim population due to the action of those guilty Hindus.

That sounds fair to me.

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Postby SSridhar » 07 Feb 2008 10:05

Dr. Faraz Hussain asks a valid question if Sania Mirza's plight is being deliberately discussed just for the sake of argument. I can understand his question and that is very valid. However, she is a sports icon and has a huge following in India and obviously Indians would be keen to see her play in India. Her decision not to play is directly because of the harassments she has faced. However, Faraz is wrong when he says that the fatwas and criticisms had no effect because nobody cared. Sania cared and that was why she changed her sportswear immediately thereafter. Obviously, she either respected the fatwa or was scared.

Again, regarding KSA, Faraz was incorrect. Every Muslim has a lot of respect for the ulema of KSA because they are the Ulema in the Holiest Land and many of them are Kureishis/Hashemites which enhances their prestige because of the lineage associated with the Prophet (SAW). Islamic disputes are taken to KSA for resolution at least in this part of the world. For example. TSP turns to KSA when it has trouble. KSA mediated the disputes among factions of Afghanistan after the ejection of Commies and Soviets. Umm-al-Quera University in Makkah is the most sought after place for religious studies the world over.

Regarding the Gujarat riots, neither the Hindu Kar Sevaks at Godhra nor the Muslims later on deserved what they got. There certainly were some horrible killing of Muslims just as there was a horrible burning of Hindus in Godhra. Even in post-Godhra, many Hindus were killed. The trouble is when Gujarat is discussed only in the context of post-Godhra feigning somehow that perfect peace was disturbed only by Hindu fanatics. It is this double standard practised by 'secular fundamentalists' that is the root cause of the problem. We have to accept the fact that the Hindu-Muslim relationship is particularly strained in Gujarat for a long time now for various reasons such as repeated invasions and desecrations of Hindu temples by Muslim invaders, instigation of Islamic fanatics by Jinnah and his thugs before Partition, ISI machinations through Indian Muslims, and a rising determination among the Hindus who generally have been docile, not to put up with either Muslim thuggery or Christian chicanery any more especially in Gujarat.

I agree with Faraz that the media create a lot of unnecessary communal tension. For example, if a house is burgled, which is a common occurrence, we see headlines "Muslim House Burgled". These unnecessary adjectives create a sense of anger and isolation among Muslims who are already isolated from the mainstream by their own regressive practices and their clergy.

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Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Feb 2008 10:15

That sounds fair to me.


Indeed people who know only rights but no obligations are invariably going to be disappointed, but I digress-this may be deemed to close to relgion and thus unsuitable for tender ears.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 10:41

farazhussain wrote:
What muslims want to do is emulate Islam; KSA is the perfect Islam place.


KSA is not the "perfect Islam place". I have never seen any educated Muslim praise the KSA for anything except for their roads maybe.


Can you please tell me who does not think so? All the educated muslims I know think that. Anyway how do you define educated; modern education? I can pull out hundreds from Jamia Milia Islami in DELHI not to mention the whole horde in Aligarh MU which think just like what I mentioned.

Why are you not aware of the truth? Or are you deliberately lying? Are you practicing Taqqiya? after all you are a good muslim (as per your own assesment) and holding Koran as final relevation. Anyway scratch that question since if you are you are not going to say yes right? :D

Further can you tell me how KSA is not pefect Islam place? Just because you say so? In that case you would be aware that you are probably in a minority of one, because every one else does.

Can you please tell me how; KSA moves away from Islam? What they are doing is not Islamic enough?

What it does it does in the name of Islam.

Well it can do anything it like and claim anything. That doesn't mean we agree with it. And now that I actually met a Saudi guy sometime back, I did put all these questions to him. He actually said Saudi laws are not all based on Islam and that its okay to have laws of non-Islamic nature (on the issue of women driving for example).


OK so whos we? Can you please list the number of places in open source this claim has been made? That is that KSA claims are not believed?

OK Maybe it does not do EVERYTHING in the name of Islam; but does 99% of the things. So lets not get bogged down in the semantics.


Well we try to follow Islam. We can condemn KSA or any other country, if they do something wrong. KSA is no authority on Islam. It, or any other country, may claim anything, but that's not binding on Muslims.


Again now we have your claim that KSA is not Islamic and IMs dont give a shit with numerous other assertions by all parties to the contrary.

So right now its just your word against that of many others. Is there a reason that we should accept your word? You could be lying for all we know.

Can you please list how KSA is not Islamic in its actions.


Well because the KSA regime is not representative of what the people want. That's true of most of Arabia.


How can you make the claim? Since its not a democracy? But no one ever said that democracy is the only political system which represents the will of its people?

If it is not; what do people in KSA want that KSA does not give? How do know of such a thing existing?

Of course, even a representative Government won't make the place "civilized" and modern anytime soon..


Exactly so you see; KSA is what its people want at the end of the day if you think about it.

Islam and Arabic culture -- pretty much the same.

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Postby surinder » 07 Feb 2008 10:51

I would like to see Gurudwaras, Mandirs, Viharas, Synagogues in Saudi Arabia. (Whole of Arabia, in fact.).

I should be allowed to take books like Bhagawat Geeta, Guru Granth Sahib, Bible, Torah to Arabia.

Muslims get to build Mosques in Hindu, Christian, Jewish countries. They get to take Quran to these countries as well. Now they should be given reciprocal rights.

Do the muslims of the world agree in principle--and I agree that they cannot enforce it---that this should be allowed?

If the answer is yes, can they back it up with 1% of the effort they put into getting their own rights?

If the answer is no, can they acknowledge honestly, "Yes, we Muslims have more rights in non-Muslims lands (Gujrat, India, USA, Europe, Israel, etc.) than non-Muslims have in Arabia."

Just a simple acknowledgement---without apology---would be refreshing.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 10:53

farazhussain wrote:
I was saying that Muslims are already interacting more and more with Hindus and are integrating increasingly and joining the national mainstream.

There has been a setback to that.



Dear Faraz; there have been riots dime a dozen before the latest Gujrat riots; and there will be later?

What was so special about Gujrat?

I agree that Dhimmi media has give you a stick to beat around with but what was special about Gujrat which was not special about previous riots?

At least in Delhi, where the "Muslim area" like Okhla are the worst off in every way, the price of land is very high due to high demand from Muslims...


I think this part has been replied to by others; why alienation of Muslims alone? Why not Hindus? Going by your logic all Hindu's should be alienated by what is happnening in Assam and Kashmir?

So when Pandits were first driven out; we should have made sure no Muslim lived in India after that?

The statement about duties and expectations is very valid.


Was it a good thing overall?



Anything which removes the mask of gold on the face of truth is very good Mr Hussian.

Blaming others for Islams own ills and defending it is not the hall mark of a liberal.


When did I blame anyone for "Islams own ills"?


In this paragraph itself. It is clear to the meanest intelligence that Muslim "alineation" is a self afflicted wound. Due to the desire to be special;

and to paraphrase you

"to remain a muslim"

The other actions are all fall outs.

Raking up Gujrat this and Gujrat that should actually be a chapter of shame in Muslim legacy in the country and should show them what their actions or lack thereof cause.
Last edited by Sanku on 07 Feb 2008 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Logan » 07 Feb 2008 10:54

Actually I can vouch for the fact that no educated Muslim would praise KSA. I happen to know many Muslims personally and usually the most vocal against the stone aged KSA are other Arabs themselves. As per a Paki friend who has lived most of his life in Dubai Saudis are the most hated and lowly looked upon of all Arabs. They seem to have a rather "jaahil" manner about them. In fact I have met many Saudis who will also vehemently denounce their govt. claming how the average person lives a lowly life there as all the money is horded by the rulers. It truly is a 7th century kingdom.
I suggest people who are talking out of prejudice lay off faraz. If you have never interacted with Muslims as a whole you should not be arguing on this thread. I also think it is dis genuine for people who keep getting hostile with Mr faraz for no reason. Part of criticizing is knowing *ALL* sections of muslim society. Not just the uneducated fatwa declaring goat ******

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Postby surinder » 07 Feb 2008 11:01

Arabic culture and Islam are fused together. They are indistinguishable.

Muslims read the Quran in Arabic. Allah used Arabic language to reveal his final revelations. To understand it, one needs to know Arabic. No other language can be used for daily prayers. Quran is not valid in any other language. (Contrast this with the Christian Bible, which is need nto be in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek.)

Muslims bow in the direction of Arabia.

Muslims need to do Hajj to Arabia.

Muslims are asked to consider Arabia as holy land.

Arab customs became Islamic customs. Amongst them, Kaaba was pre-islamic. Hajj was pre-islamic.

Muslims are given names which are Arabic names not Islamic names (For instance, Mohammad's father was Abdullah. Hence Abdullah is a Arab name, not necassarily Islamic name. Mohammad's own name is pre-Islamic).

Islam way of life prescribed for the faithful is basically Arab life: Arabic dresses, ways of washing hands, cleaning after toilet, women's dresses, behaviour towards slaves, attitudes towards polygamay, rules on spoils of war. All of that is Arabic.

Four schools of Islam originate in Arabia. Interpretations are done in Arabia. Disputes about Islam are resolved in Arabia. Imaams of main mosques are Arabs.

All in all: Arab culture is copied in toto and labeled as Islamic.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 11:02

Logan wrote:Actually I can vouch for the fact that no educated Muslim would praise KSA.


First and foremost; I do; many; and a desire to emulate the same by IMs. In a campus interview I conducted on JMI campus; many candidates excused themselves by saying they could not interview with a women. (My partner was a woman)

And Md Atta was very educated!! No?

As I mentioned before; I have muslims married into my family and my friend and personal physician is a Muslim.

So those saying people here dont know muslims; lay off the bull crap. We kaffirs have seen enough lies to be fooled any more (well at least some of us)

Secondly nice attempt at twisting my question; the question was not whether some people dont like KSA or not. Faraz here does not.

The question was how can you be both a Muslim and dislike KSA for doing what it is doing in the name of Islam.

If some one can tell me open source literature from Muslims saying KSA is not Islamic because of a.b.c.d I will at least be open to accepting this line of defense.

Claiming something does not make it true correct?
Last edited by Sanku on 07 Feb 2008 11:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 11:08

surinder wrote:All in all: Arab culture is copied in toto and labeled as Islamic.


This is in a MNC company; a woman engineer from Hyderabad becomes a mother of nth child. (one per year) I ask the name of the child.

Pat comes a Arabic name -- I ask (truly not knowing) is it Urdu? Pat comes the reply we are GOOD muslims and hence names are in Arabic.

Oh by the way Mr Faraz Hussain what language does you name come from? Not the same Jahil Arabs you despise so much is it?

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Elevation.
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Postby Multatuli » 07 Feb 2008 11:20

Quote : < If you have never interacted with Muslims as a whole you should not be arguing on this thread. I also think it is dis genuine for people who keep getting hostile with Mr faraz for no reason. Part of criticizing is knowing *ALL* sections of muslim society. Not just the uneducated fatwa declaring goat ****** >

What do you mean by ´interacted with Muslims as a whole´?

Being critical is not the same as being hostile. Also, there is a mutually beneficial relationship between the ´liberal´Muslims in India and the ´fatwa declaring goats´. The fatwa declaring goats act as storm troopers for the entire Muslim community. Also, if the ´liberal´Indian Muslim really is as liberal as he/she pretends to be, then why don´t they come out in force against the fatwa declaring goat lovers, and why do they only condemn the response of Hindu´s after Pakistani flag waving Muslims stopped the train with Hindu pilgrims and then trapped and burned alive the Hindu pilgrims ?

These are legitimate questions and I don´t care if people think I am hostile to Muslims.

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Postby Prem » 07 Feb 2008 11:28

Sanku wrote:
surinder wrote:All in all: Arab culture is copied in toto and labeled as Islamic.


This is in a MNC company; a woman engineer from Hyderabad becomes a mother of nth child. (one per year) I ask the name of the child.

Pat comes a Arabic name -- I ask (truly not knowing) is it Urdu? Pat comes the reply we are GOOD muslims and hence names are in Arabic.

Oh by the way Mr Faraz Hussain what language does you name come from? Not the same Jahil Arabs you despise so much is it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Elevation.
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The way i perceive it adoption of Arabic stuff is equal to negation of Indic civilizational ethos. This self uprooting .

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Postby Pulikeshi » 07 Feb 2008 11:37

As a free citizen of India one has the right to choose Yiddish, Gaelic, Sanskrit, Greek, Arabic or any other language to name oneself or a child.
Also, as a citizen one has a right to pray in the direction of Mathura, Kashi, Rome, Mecca, Lhasa, etc.

What does all this have to do with Islamism in India - or how to tackle Islamic extremism in India?
Seems like we are back to scoring plenty of self goals!

What up with this all the engineering geeks chasing the one lone PYT on the beach?

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Postby Pulikeshi » 07 Feb 2008 11:49

If Islam in time event was an explosion traveling from Arabia to India - then all the gradations you see along the way are how intermediate civilizations handled, or did not handle, this explosion. Iran in this light could be seen as the first protest - even they aligned themselves towards Mecca, so what is the point of asking Indian Muslims to change their orientation? Similar to magnetization, this need to orient physically and mentally towards Mecca is induced, the energy require to reorient this polarization is extreme in short term. However, with very little energy it can be done in the long run.

Therefore, Islam is not very different from early Christianity. Catholicism piggy backed on Roman hegemony, whereas Islam created its own wave and being more recent seems more fervent. The difference is that in the initial spread of Islam there was (and still is) no separation of Political and Religious power - they have the same source the "perfect" book.
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 07 Feb 2008 11:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby rkrao » 07 Feb 2008 11:50

Quote"
So when Pandits were first driven out; we should have made sure no Muslim lived in India after that?
Quote"

I second your opinion sir,,,,

Quote"As I mentioned before; I have muslims married into my family and my friend and personal physician is a Muslim.Quote

Can you please tell us whether the muslim whom your family member married became Hindu or The Vice Versa??,,,Are they living happily without any threats from Muslims....bcos usually it happens,,,

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 11:57

Dear Faraz
Please tell me
When more than 60 innocent people were burnt alive say by ONLY few people AND Fire Fighters were blocked by MANY people who should be picked and punished.
Dont you think its the whole community involved in making this coward incendent a sucessful one...


What "whole community" ? All Indian Muslims? All Gujarati Muslims?

The guilty are those who were there and who prevented emergency services (which I heard for the first time on this forum).


So want us to pick and punish only those Muslims who did Parliament attack,akshardaam,Varnasi attacks etc etc etc and keep waiting till the next muslim does another attach once he gets interest in getting 72s. and again lose some more valuable kaffirs. Boss in real world it will never happen,,,


Well those who are culprits should be punished. Those who are planning should be apprehended. The Intelligence services are already doing their jobs.

Maybe you can let me know what you think should be done. You clearly suggest that its not just the culprits who are to be punished. So there must be some innocents. Now which innocent Muslims must suffer and how many and how must they be chosen?

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:00

Pulikeshi wrote:As a free citizen of India one has the right to choose Yiddish, Gaelic, Sanskrit, Greek, Arabic or any other language to name oneself or a child.
Also, as a citizen one has a right to pray in the direction of Mathura, Kashi, Rome, Mecca, Lhasa, etc.


Context boss; second point is the context of false dichotomy between Islam and KSA.

Same with first-
You can name your child in the free country in any language; so going by your logic we should not see patterns where nearly all Muslim names are Arabic and Hindu names are Indian? What does that tell us. And again note the context in which it is made.

Please be aware that the line between personal and social behavior is a very thin one. We have discussed this before to I believe.

PS> We engineers are like this onleee :P

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:02

farazhussain wrote:The guilty are those who were there and who prevented emergency services (which I heard for the first time on this forum).


Faraz dont you wonder why there are so many things you are hearing for the first time on the forum?


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