Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 5

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 21:12

Given that Islam was born in SaudiA; its culture and tradition are codified in the books and KSA goes about claiming its numero uno Islamic state and the rest of world agrees and wants to emulate; how does your assertion hold water?

KSA can say whatever it wants. And no one tries to emulate them. So you're wrong there.

KSA has no hope at all. I talked to a Saudi guy about the driving ban on women(also brought up the religious freedom issue) and he said it was fine (driving ban) and necessary. What more can one say to such a person?

What else is a nations behavior expect sum of its citizens behavior?

No. Not in the case of KSA. Pakistan, yes. What Pakistan says and does, by and large reflects what the elite, influential middle classes want.

Arabs in the Middle East are in general backward and there is no political awareness. They are all watching and sitting on their asses while they're being screwed by the White Man for the last 80 years. When do they get up and ever do anything? They have absolutely no future, in my opinion.

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 21:26

According to you, what percentage of Indian muslims think like you?
What should be done to make them more vocal?

This is all so complex in a country like India. Muslims are not one whole and most have no idea about what Muslims in other parts of the country do, say or think.

As for the second part, some rational voices should come in the public sphere. They should be those who can criticize Muslims openly when they do something wrong, but also defend Islam and Muslims in general.

But again you know, I'll say its not as bad as it comes out here IMO. Muslims have been learning and integrating - what we need is to go all out for State/Govt. education.

While in college, I met Muslims from AP, Kerala, TN, Maharashtra, UP, etc - and they all seemed integrated with others from their state. There would be groups/wings/gangs based on State. There was no "Muslim group".

I think thins are on the right path. But Gujarat is a huge step backward. And a lot of people in this forum are erring on that issue, IMO.

Is it correct if I say if I say from your name that you are a Shia.

No, I'm not. I'm just a Muslim

(But even my family can be described as Sunni Muslims)

Hussain is one of the names common to all.

We see moderate muslims like Kawaja, and you must have noticed what kind of jerk he is.

Well, I think Indian Muslims would be well advised to follow the advice of the Late Rafiq Zakaria. His book, "Where have Indian Muslim gone wrong" is seminal work I think.

url

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 21:44

What Saudy Arabia does reflects on what Islam is and supposed to be.

No. No one tries to emulate KSA.

Maybe, just maybe, the reason why Muslims are silent is that they agree with Saudi Arabia. Maybe the Muslims know that Saudi Arabia's actions are actually in AGREEMENT with Islam. Do you think there might be this teeny-weeny possibility?

No. If they all agree with Saudi Arabia, then why don't they all disallow religious freedom? Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran, Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Algeria, Malaysia, etc. all have other religions practiced. The record of all of them may be highly debatable, but they don't follow KSA.

IMO, KSA is an exception. And that is the only example that people here are repeatedly giving.

Come on. This is just not true. Most muslims are pretty plugged in what happens in Saudi Arabia. EVERY muslim knows mulitple people who have done Hajj & Umra. They know how non-Muslims are treated in KSA.

No. Muslims in general don't know about Saudi laws. And you are also not presenting the true picture. Saudis maybe complete jackasses but they're not anti-Hindu. They are absolutely ignorant.

None of us here (or in the real world) are foolish enough to ask you to apoligize for some one else's actions. We are asking you to simply apologize for YOUR OWN actions. You can certainly approach the Imaam of your Mosque to initiate a Fatwa on Saudi Arabia. You can add to the movement to make them open up. (not a PR ploy for Kaafir's benifit, but a real dialogue with fellow Muslims.)

This is what I said - people generally don't think they can influence others. You keep giving the example of KSA. There are hardly any Muslim voices condemning the vast US military presence across Arabia, etc. They talk only when something drastic happens - like a war in Iraq etc.

As for a fatwa, what good is that? That's just an opinion. Hardly ever does anyone talk to their Imam. What is doable these days is use the Internet for this. And may let our opinion known on a website, blog etc.

My question to you is: Are you really concerned about this or is it just a point you're raising for argument sake?

The King of KSA was the Chief Guest at the Republic Day ceremony sometime back, right? Did they GoI bring up this issue with them? If not, why not? If yes, what was their response and why is the GoI not putting more pressure on them?

archan · Post by **archan** » 05 Feb 2008 22:00

Ah, I see that the Indianmuslims.in blog people only publish those comments that they feel comfortable with. They 'censored' my comments to carefully cut out the part on Godhara even though the lady herself brought it up in her story. Now I did not use inappropriate language or make allegations. Nice job of maintaining 'harmony' in the site. For a moment I thought the site was for a good cause and had begun to have a positive image of Mr. Kaleem. However after reading some of his other comments and seeing how they try to shape the site to only reflect their side (with minor allowance to others of course, to maintain a facade of balance), I think this is just another one of those 'minority against oppression by majority' type of sites. Not worth much I guess.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 05 Feb 2008 22:05

farazhussain wrote:

The King of KSA was the Chief Guest at the Republic Day ceremony sometime back, right? Did they GoI bring up this issue with them? If not, why not? If yes, what was their response and why is the GoI not putting more pressure on them?

There is still a standing request from KSA to build 10s of thousands of wahabbi madrassas and to rebuild all the run down mosques on Indian territory (to spread the message of peace in Islam apparently) that is supported by the Imam of Jama Masjid all the so-called muslim leaders, and none of the "silent majority" muslims have anything negative to say about this development, but tacitly support it.

The Indian muslims are yet to accept that Hindus may feel deeply about Mathura, Ayodhya or any important place from the hindu religious POV -- this is very clear from their attitude w.r.t. the decrepit mosque that was taken down. No, Indian muslims seem more intent on playing up the whole "secular democracy" card until they do not have to....else we would be seeing them protest against the Imam Bukharis and Haji Yaqoob Qureishis and their death threats and death bounties on Ms. Nasreen, Sania Mirza, her doctor, and the dutch cartoonists. All of this violent islamist behaviour happened recently within Indian territory and there were certainly a lot of Indian muslims who supported this mindset, seeing as to the lack of any attempt to protest against such behaviour.

Suggestions that the Indian islamists are a small fraction of all Indian muslims seem more than a little far-fetched given the amount of support from "secular" hindus and Indian muslims for islamist actions and behaviour...."silent majority" is no longer a tenable defense for Indian muslims who will not speak up against the ills perpetrated by the Mullahs and Imams.

From the point of view of an external observer of an insulated community like the muslim community, the non muslim observer cannot differentiate between a muslim who tacitly supports pan-islamic jihad and one who does not, unless the muslim opens his mouth in public. It is no use pretending the the Gujarati hindus are misguided for electing Modi when the Indian muslims refuses to look inward even for a nano second.

The liberal Indian muslims that practise Taqiyya by speaking "secular liberal" rhetoric (like Kaleem Kawaja, Omar Khalidi, MJ Akbar, and Syed Shahbudding) are no better than any other pakistani jihadi twat...they are just more pragmatic, but the end goal of flying the flag of Islam on India is the same......these Indian muslims support islamist behaviour in the public domain by working on deflecting criticism of islam and islamist behaviour by pointing to "evil hindu fundamentist terrorist nazis" whenever there is a need to take on the islamists -- non muslims have to do that because the "silent majority" muslims will not, and the silent majority has nothing to say when the Taqiyya-practising muslims redirect all criticism against islam and its inherent barbarism (which would not be a problem if muslims did not insist on following their texts to the letter, as the muslim Imams and Mullahs will insist).

JMTs

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 22:16

Shiv:

On Sania: Someone criticized her for wearing a small skirt. I heard that. Well that's someone opinion and as long as they're not coercing her into doing anything, they are entitled to think or say what they want (unless its incitement, etc). Right?

The problem in my mind is the media. The media is making too big a deal out of people who say such things. No one really cares about all this. Just completely ignore what they say and if they try to act on this, then the law must take its own course.

How can a non Muslim who witnesses all this from the outside, and observes that the fundamentalist minority get away time and again while this "silent majority" remain silent time and again actually be convinced that the silent majority really oppose the vociferous minority?

I think you're getting it wrong. Have you read the book "World of Fatwas" by Arun Shourie? Anyone would be appalled to read the opinions expressed by people that he has compiled. The book, while good academic work, is not well-intentioned. Its meant to just "show" the "true face" of Muslims, etc.

The thing is, too much importance is being attached to this. These people don't have any such great influence as its being made out.

That book talks of fatwas like "Don't study English", "Don't study medicine", even "Don't use loudspeakers in mosques"!

Who even cares about all this? India is moving on and moving on fast, and Muslim society is moving too.

It is all very well to say that Muslims speak with one voice over many issues. But it appears that when there is more than one voice, some of those voices are suppressed by a powerful minority in the Muslim community.

Well I don't think that's true. Instead, my complaint is that the media focuses only on the more regressive voices.

a) What is visible to us is ONLY the agitation and complaints of the vociferous Muslim minority about Rushdie, Cartoons, Sania Mirza etc

Here's what I'll say. The Rushdie protests are not within my memory. I was probably too young. And the cartoon issue happened while I was in US.

But in the intervening, 15 years, nothing really of this nature happened, right?

My friend, Muslims are moving on, sending their kids to school, even college, constantly interacting with Hindus, etc. I grew up in Lucknow and it was very integrated and I didn't really feel alienated or different until 9/11, Gujarat, etc.

I think the because of what the media highlights, you're only focusing on this negative things. But by and large, Muslims are going on with their lives normally.

That's my opinion.

b) You say that there IS a silent majority. But we dont see them. We don't hear them. How are we to know at all that they exist?

You certainly won't see them or hear them on TV. That's not our fault. That's the TV channels' fault.

Just go around the country, talk to Muslims, talk to Hindus -that gives a better picture than TV or rediff.com

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 22:22

There is still a standing request from KSA to build 10s of thousands of wahabbi madrassas and to rebuild all the run down mosques on Indian territory (to spread the message of peace in Islam apparently) that is supported by the Imam of Jama Masjid all the so-called muslim leaders, and none of the "silent majority" muslims have anything negative to say about this development, but tacitly support it.

10's of thousands? Are you serious? I heard a few years back they offered to "renovate" Jama Masjid. I don't even know what happened.

And the rest of your comment is the same old rhetoric that has been repeated multiple times already.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 05 Feb 2008 22:23

farazhussain wrote:

You certainly won't see them or hear them on TV. That's not our fault. That's the TV channels' fault.

That is certainly a very convenient excuse for the "silent majority" to remain silent instead of criticizing the behaviour of Indian muslim leadership, that is openly islamist in its behaviour notwithstanding all their pious talk of owing allegiance to India.

If Indian muslims are content to allow various lowlives in their community speak on their behalf, and will not speak up against these retrograde leaders, then they cannot blame hindus for assuming the worst, given islam's violent history in India.

Sania Mirza is afraid to play in her own country because she fears for her life due to death threats from Indian muslims, not muslims from some other country. And people here are pretending that the Indian muslim community is not culpable or responsible for the behaviour of its leadership.

JMTs.

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 22:24

Archan:

That KK article on IM blog has lots of posts critical of the article and of IMs, etc, including posts Shiv of this forum.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 05 Feb 2008 22:27

farazhussain wrote:

10's of thousands? Are you serious? I heard a few years back they offered to "renovate" Jama Masjid. I don't even know what happened.

Yes, I am serious. The Indian govt. refused that request but the KSA still has that request open.

And the rest of your comment is the same old rhetoric that has been repeated multiple times already.

Ah yes, it is "rhetoric" when you do not feel like addressing the hard issues -- all you have done so far is pretend that there is no problem and saying "you people are all misinformed and islamism in India is a figment of your imagination".

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Kaleem Kawaja and the jihadis in the IM website are certainly taking a lot of pains to "sanitize posts" and change their meaning...truly a well-meaning set of humanitarians running that web site.

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 22:29

hat is certainly a very convenient excuse for the "silent majority" to remain silent instead of criticizing the behaviour of Indian muslim leadership, that is openly islamist in its behaviour notwithstanding all their pious talk of owing allegiance to India.

If Indian muslims are content to allow various lowlives in their community speak on their behalf, and will not speak up against these retrograde leaders, then they cannot blame hindus for assuming the worst, given islam's violent history in India.

Sania Mirza is afraid to play in her own country because she fears for her life due to death threats from Indian muslims, not muslims from some other country. And people here are pretending that the Indian muslim community is not culpable or responsible for the behaviour of its leadership.

JMTs.

What death threat? Are you making things up now?

And do you even care one iota about Sania or any other Muslim woman? Or is it just a cheap talking point to criticize Muslims?

And no one is speaking on Indian Muslims' behalf. People speak for themselves.

And the VHP, RSS etc. said lots of things about Muslims. Does that reflect the views of all Hindus? Should every Hindu be expected to take the time out to criticize their nonsense or is it better to just ignore them?

Sriram · Post by **Sriram** » 05 Feb 2008 22:37

Sania's doctor gets threats

Printed from
The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India
Sania's doctor gets threats
23 Dec 2007, 0222 hrs IST,TNN

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates
HYDERABAD: Ever since she shot into limelight, Sania Mirza has faced one peculiar problem.

A section of her own community treated her as the villain of her religion. From issuing fatwas on her sporting gear to the recent allegation that she has hurt the sentiments of the community by trespassing into the historic Mecca Masjid in the old city, they have been troubling Sania Mirza no end.

Now her detractors seem to be spreading their net wider, training their focus even on those who are associated with the player. It is learnt that the doctors who have been treating Sania Mirza for the injuries she has sustained from time to time over the last few years have been the targets of hate mail.

Dr KJ Reddy of the Apollo Hospital here, who was responsible for the player's rehabilitation on several occasions in the past and had helped her recover from career-threatening injuries, has been warned by a few individuals and groups from India and Pakistan. The senior orthopedic surgeon has received four letters all of which warned him of dire consequences if he continued to treat Sania Mirza as she was bringing bad name to the religion.

While two letters were received from Pakistan, one was from Bangalore and the other from Kanauj in Uttar Pradesh.

The message is simple in all these four letters: "Dont treat Sania. She is getting injured because god does not want her to play as she was bringing bad name to the religion. Please don't treat her or else you will face serious consequences. We will not hesitate to harm you."

In an envelope that the doctor received immediately after he treated Sania Mirza last March, a letter was even addressed to Sania.

"I have informed Sania's father about this but kept it from the girl because I thought these things will affect her game as also the treatment," said Dr Reddy.

What was his first reaction? "I felt disturbed for a few days. I will not say I was frightened but we cannot ignore these things. One thing that disturbed me most was that they are targeting the doctor. I don't understand why they are upset with Sania. She is the pride of the nation and everybody should be proud of her achievements," Reddy said.

The letter from UP was addressed to Dr Reddy and the CEO of Apollo Hospital Dr Hariprasad. Signed by one Noor, the letter is written in Hindi with a footnote in English which warned the doctor to get the letter translated into English in case he didn't know Hindi, for it was important for him as well as Sania Mirza to know its contents. It ends with a stern warning: "Please pay attention to the letters otherwise it should be very harmful for you."

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Rye · Post by **Rye** » 05 Feb 2008 22:40

farazhussain wrote:

What death threat? Are you making things up now?

There was a death threat against Sania's doctor, reported in Indian papers. Will try to find the link.

And do you even care one iota about Sania or any other Muslim woman? Or is it just a cheap talking point to criticize Muslims?

As much as one can care about an Indian who is stopped from going about their lives because of constant harrassment from the religious clergy --- the same criticism would apply to any group that exhibits such behaviour. If you are pretending that only muslims can care for Sania, that certainly says a lot about your mindset...your slip is showing.

And no one is speaking on Indian Muslims' behalf. People speak for themselves.

Perhaps you should go read all the newspaper articles where various Indian muslims and "secular" hindus claim to speak for all muslims. I am not making that up either.

And the VHP, RSS etc. said lots of things about Muslims. Does that reflect the views of all Hindus?

It obviously represents the view points of a goodly chunk of hindus who care to join those organizations, but let us not do the old "open fly torn shirt" routine again shall we? Stick to the topic.

Should every Hindu be expected to take the time out to criticize their nonsense or is it better to just ignore them?

You and I do not get to dictate behaviour of "every hindu" or "every muslim"....all we can do is ask questions as to why there is such a huge discrepancy between the pious mouthings of the Islamic community's leadership and the violent and communal behaviour of muslims, hindus, etc.

farazhussain · Post by **farazhussain** » 05 Feb 2008 22:41

Rye:

The thing is I am overwhelmed but I'm trying to do the best that I can.

And yes, I do feel there are many problems in Muslim society in India, but the true picture is not being presented on this forum.

And because of your tone, I feel there is no point answering you.

Guys, I'm tired, I tried to answer many posts, but couldn't reply to all.

If some attitudes persist, that leaves no room for me even to talk.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 05 Feb 2008 22:47

My friend, Muslims are moving on, sending their kids to school, even college, constantly interacting with Hindus, etc. I grew up in Lucknow and it was very integrated and I didn't really feel alienated or different until 9/11, Gujarat, etc.

Just as expected. These incidents were intended to leave deep scars on psyche of Indian muslim. And are part of a deeper plan to cause fissure in Indian society. (9/11 is fissure on global scale)

Until Indira Gandhi and to certain extent Rajiv were alive, these plans couldn't have fructified. IG in particular resisted economic interdependence with west, she was almost paranoid. Economic dependence of India to west had to be built so that terrorism could be cultivated by neighbouring states and economic dependence on west could be leveraged to prevent India from retaliating. It is not a mere coincidence that US has always covered Pakistan's terrorism as pointed out by the missing mumbai blast Grenade example. So they had to be eliminated inorder to get bigger things moving. Just like Kandahar hijack had to take place to extricate Omar Sayed Sheikh who was later key in planning 9/11.

Both Indian hindus and Indian muslims must realize that they are victims within a much larger plan and tailor their actions accordingly. Sometimes doing certain things will mean playing into hands of vicious global manipulators.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 05 Feb 2008 22:47

farazhussain wrote:

And because of your tone, I feel there is no point answering you.

You accuse me of indulging in anti-muslim rhetoric (meaning you did not care to read the criticism that was made) and faking concern for Sania just for dumping on muslims, so pardon me if I got a little offended. I will keep quiet if my posts are stopping you from speaking your mind.

Peace.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2008 22:47

That letter to DR. KJ Reddy is a fake. No self respecting fundoo will write in Hindi even if he from Uttar Pradesh.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 05 Feb 2008 23:07

farazhussain wrote: And no one is speaking on Indian Muslims' behalf. People speak for themselves.

And the VHP, RSS etc. said lots of things about Muslims. Does that reflect the views of all Hindus? Should every Hindu be expected to take the time out to criticize their nonsense or is it better to just ignore them.

Faraz take your time to respond. And do it if only you choose to.

MIM, AIMPLB, JeI-H, IUML do have a habbit of making statements and may I add stupid statements. In the world of Indian muslims there isn't any organization that can counter them.

What to talk about in India, in US itself organizations like CAIR do similar things and there as well there isn't any single muslim organization that will stand up and counter them.

For countering VHP, RSS you have CPI-M, INC, SP. Add to this interactive news channels like NDTV & CNN-IBN are there. News media like Tehelka with tarun tejpal, Sankarshan thakur etc. And then you have NGO's like one headed by Teesta Setalvad. You have people like Arundhati Roy, Shashi Tharoor. Modi has been criticized/abused like no one else before in the history of Indian Republic.

For example just see the reactions from hindu community in case of RSS/VHP assault on an art student in baroda, Gujrat.

Compare it with taslima nasreen incident in hyderabad in Aug 2007. Except for Javed Akhtar saying something no one else from IM had any power to speak for her. Openly MPs of MIM said we are muslims first and then Indians. What did other muslim do to condemn them ? Nothing.

This is why non muslims in various countries have to take up issues with muslim organization and their activities. There is an anti-CAIR organization comprising of non muslims in the US.

Shwetank · Post by **Shwetank** » 06 Feb 2008 00:56

Dr. Faraz, I appreciate your coming here and calmy answreing questions in a hostile environment. I get the feeling that you are more liberal and keep saying you want to just move on and better your lot, a sentiment that I share and think India needs. You have convinced me that you are not a bigoted or stereotypical muslim of the kind bashed here. I am intrigued to find out what your guiding principals are, how far does your "liberalism" go? And of others like you. The ultimate question boils down to what do you want? It seems you are like the average "good" Indian (the kind members here like), just want to get a job, live a good life, have access to the normal things, freedom, advance onwards etc. Everyone agrees on this. But are exclusively devoted to this or does Islam stlil overule anything. I personally do not approve of everything in "Hinduism", whatever definition you use and cannot say it is perfect or ever has been. I care more about the principles and am willing to discard what sections or philosophies don't gel with me or progress. I am also willing to state those parts are specifically wrong. I am also willing to change its name, call it a new movement, a whole new global religion, a non-religion constitution or whatever is needed in order to get the real issues done and just move on with life.

Are you willing to do so with "Islam", whatever your definition of it may be so. Are you gonig to claim it is perfect, that if it (your particular interpretation) were correctly followed there would be no problems, that the problems currently arising are absolutely independent of Islamic philosophy and only have to do with bad implementation and interpretation? And if the principles you cherish along with us can be achieved but require new branding, if for example acknowledgement that ALL faiths till now had something good and something wrong and that they were attempts to find basic good principles of this universe and a slow syncretism took place and you had to selflessly be willing to let go of what ever movement you were born into by chance (even if it meant your movement is judged to have been slightly worse, or had more worse things) just if it meant human beings could advance and recognize the common good values? I would be willing to in a heartbeat. In my opinion to not do so would be like blind nationalism, you didn't really want what is good for humanity and what is truth but just stuck dogmatically to some label just for the sake of it, even at the cost of suffering. That can't be a pious thought.

Basically, are you willing to tolerate criticism of Prophet Mohammad? Are you willing to accept there should be no human in history beyond reproach? As the ultimate test, are you willing to, unequivocally & without any extenuations, say that not every act committed by that man was justifiable or good but some were in fact criminal & should not be allowed at all under any circumstances. Ofcourse, normal life will go on and I might get along just fine with you and other such persons. People will ignore those parts they don't like and it moves on. Not every muslim is gonig to follow everything Moh. has said or recommeneded. Common sense and social norms shape behaviour. But at some point the actual theory has to be changed and questioned or forgotten And eventually in the long-term, there has to be assimilation in this country. You can have different flavors and versions, kind of like how people here theorize about Hinduism, but overall unity should be there (minus stuff we know doens't work like caste system). Not an absolute & sharp divide like there is now between Islam and other "religions" and will always will be if Islam remains in it's current form in India. And the question is why should you be concerned if there is assimilation, as long as good changes come about and there is progress. This is where you question your committment to the greater good (a tricky term I know). Are you willing let go of some particular man in 7th century Arabia if needed?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Feb 2008 01:28

Here is "Count the Lies" game and Al Taqiya 's brilliant roll and my suspicion of Islam's ability to suspend common sense among the followers. Cognitive Dissonance, Blame the Others game , name it , its all here .

Hindustan Mein Zaat-Paat Aur Musalman (Urdu)

http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2008 ... _urdu.html

Tracing the origins of casteism to the Aryan invasions in India , Falahi begins with a discussion of its conception in Hindu religion and how it managed to keep a whole swathe of masses under its yoke. So forceful and assimilative was the Brahminical social order that it even scuttled efforts towards reform by egalitarian movements like Buddhism and Jainism. Under such an unjust order Muslim traders brought the liberating force of Islam to shores of India which led to incremental rise in the 'low-castes' adopting Islam. The author contends that the Arab invaders who first came were completely free from casteism and believed in complete equality of mankind as clearly elaborated by Islamic teachings. It was only after the non-Arab rulers took over in 995 CE that proponents of the Brahminical social order were able to smuggle their concept of Varn Ashram into the Muslim society. The inroads were made through a sophisticated manipulation of the concept of Kafa'a (suitability and compatibility in marriage) to the extent that it became synonymous with the Varna Ashram.

Some of the early proponents of this new conception were scholars and mystics attached to the court. The once unitary Islamic society now came to be divided into the Ashraaf (Syed, Shaikh, Mughal, and Pathan) and Ajlaaf (Kunjda, Qasai, Nai, Julaha, etc). Those non-Muslims who came from the 'upper castes' were classified in the Ashraaf category and those from 'low castes' to the Ajlaaf. Among the Ashraaf, Syeds gained the sacrosanct status similar to the ones of the Brahmans. High positions in the government were reserved for them and their writ ran large especially under the reigns of Iltumish and Balban. It was not until 1325 CE when Sultan Muhammad Tughlaq took over that the Syed supremacy was challenged. He brought in reforms by dismissing the old guard and bringing in a group of scholars and administrators associated with the Sufi Shaikh Nizamuddin Awliya. His fairness, justice, and large-heartedness towards all led a large number of natives to convert to Islam.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Feb 2008 02:09

Faraz: You have mentioned Shourie's the world of fatwas, as an example, where the author has taken, in your view, some random quotes from various mullahs and as an example of his bad intentions. Fatwas from Mullahs, that do not matter as most muslims do not follow them.

But, that is not the point Shorie was making at all. That book, which I have read multiple times, is like a thriller. It has mind numbing details, seemingly repeated to no end with dozens of examples. After reading through all the material, you have to get to the final chapter, where he explains the fundamental problems, stemming right from the Quran and Sunnah.

If you just read the last chapter, one will ask, where is the evidence, if you just read some random chapters and pages, and do not get to the finale, it may appear as if he is muslim bashing.

Far from any muslim bashing, Shourie, was pointing to some fundamental issues with the entire structure of Islam. At the end of the day, he is asking that muslims will have to treat the Quran just as another book - the question is, when (not if) will the muslims start doing so and use their heads and reason as the primary measure of discourse.

How many Hindus do you know of, who clamor for the right to have multiple wives becuase Lord Krishna had that many? He would be considered a wacko by today's norms.

There are certain concepts in Islam and the overall message seems to be: Islam claims to be complete and completed, It is exclusive, It sanctions violence and treachery, it discrimnates, it is totalitarian.

Can you speak to these concepts, if we are mistaken, and if you agree, then what is the way out for Muslims, from the clutches of Islam?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Feb 2008 02:25

farazhussain wrote:Rye:

The thing is I am overwhelmed but I'm trying to do the best that I can.

And yes, I do feel there are many problems in Muslim society in India, but the true picture is not being presented on this forum.

And because of your tone, I feel there is no point answering you.

Guys, I'm tired, I tried to answer many posts, but couldn't reply to all.

If some attitudes persist, that leaves no room for me even to talk.

Space out your posts. You don't have to respond to every question anybody throws at you. You bring in another perspective that lacks here.

I would also request others not to swamp him (or me for making this post

) and expect him to answer all questions or defend actions of other muslims.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 06 Feb 2008 02:38

Dear Faraz Hussain:
First of all, thank you very much for coming to this forum, and sharing your opinion on us. I wish we had more indian muslims joining this BRF and share thoughts. I fondly remember several years ago we had Imtiaz Ahmed and another guy (forgetting his name) participating in a lively debate on BRF. Not only Imtiaz had the guts to call a spade a spade, but also his shart wits and comments made the discussion a lot easier and healthy. Any time, a seldom occurance, a muslim sounding name comes on this forum, there is an "us vs. them" attitude that take shape. Please don't take it personally, and it is the effect of our long and trecherous history. Imtiaz took the matter above all these. I wonder where is is now.

The impression I get from my muslim friends from bengal is that it's not Saudi Arabia or Pakistan that makes the indian muslims' lives difficult, it's the strangle-hold of the mullahs of the local mosques have on the day to day life of common muslims.
True the indian muslims are poorer, ill educated and have littl female literacy, but I do make a serious difference between the non-bengali indian muslims and bengali indian muslims. This is the overwhelming view of the bengali muslims, and according to them (in my many many discussions with many muslim firends from different walks of life) - islam religion has more influence on nonbengali muslims than the bengali muslims. This needs to be examined in details.
Even indians outside bengal may not realize it well, and may think that CPM is the one which cuddles the jihadis and give them shelter for vote bank politics. Which is true, but it is also equally true that the left and bengali intellengentia has to some extent blunted the influence of islam on bengali muslims. I'm no supporter of CPM or the left parties, in fact a severe critic of their vote bank politics, but the left movement has been successful in weaning a large chunk of bengali musims away from mosques. Mosques are there and their numbers are increasing, but their role is much less fundamental to those in Bihar, UP or Delhi.
What I said above needs to be researched thoroughly as part of sociological research work (some are being done already). It's no coincidence that the the early left leadership had a number of bengali muslims (like Com. Muzzafar Ahamed, Alimuddin, Azizul haque - who became a naxalite later, etc.) wo came out of the community, and trashed islam. A few more facts, - (i) hindu-muslim marriage is most prevalent in bengal than any other place in India; (ii) the contribution of hindus and muslims in bengali culture - music, literature, arts, etc are equal. True that is due to the fact of 50-50 hindu-muslim split in the total bengali population (west bengal and bangladesh).
People can look at the recent Taslima Nasreen fiasco and may get a biased picture of the situation. It is a relatively small but vocal muslim population who eventually got prominance due to media sensation. After the Taslima incident, CPM/Left front faced a barrage of sharp criticism from the liberal bengali muslim intelligentia which went unreported by the large media outlets.
Coming back to the main issue of liberal face of islam. It is due to the effect of western education system that took root in bengal from the early british rule. The bengal renaissance that swept away most of the orthodox hindu practices and superstitions, also touched the muslim community in bengal. As a result, the bengali literature, art, fine arts, saw the contribution of both the communities. Take for example, bengali novels - I can name equal number of hindu and muslim writers who are equally popular. There is a bit twist in the history too. This has happened since 1940s, the time of unfortunate communal riots which were the handi works of the british to divide the bengali society.
I may have gotten a bad sample, but I asked a couple of my local gujarati friends to name a few prominent muslim gujarati novelists or writers. They couldn't. I'm not sure whether they don't know, or the gujarati muslims haven't contributed much to gujarati literature. If the latter is the case, then that would explain partly the sharp communal polarization on Gujarat. To take a community forward, all groups - hindus, muslims or christians, or others needs to contribute freely. (Literature may or may not be a good parameter, but I think gujarati muslims do contribute in business and commerce equally like their hindu counterparts.) This, in a way, explains Faraz Hussain's assertion that a large chunk of indian muslims do not look up to KSA for guidance. But that needs to be proclaimed forcefully by the community. They also have a responsibility to alleviate fears and apprehensions of the others agains them. (In the Park Circus area of Kolkata, some bihari muslims still raise the Pakistani flags every time India plays against Pakistan. The local bengali muslims took it upon themselves to confront them on this issue. Good sign.)
It is the educated muslims in bengal/Kolkata who have been complaining for quite some time that mullahs are trying to increase their influence on the muslim masses. Some of these liberal educated muslims have been pointing out for quite some time that money from gulf are pouring in to radicalize the bengali muslims. Non-bengali mullahs from UP and Delhi are visiting rural bengal mosques, and causing a friction with their bengali counterparts. Many bengali muslims have been complaining that these visits need to be stopped.
Now, a small info about the Taslima fiasco. It is some bengali muslim intellectuals (some of whom do work as eyes and ears of the intel set-up) who warned the ruling Left front and Kolkata/WB police for some time that money and resources are coming in to create trouble. This was well before the trouble started. But their warnings were ignored as being premature and too dooms' day scenario.
My repeated interactions with several muslim forums, orgs in bengal gives me single clue to the problem of radicalization of the community: Increase the level of modern education. In my countless discussions with many muslim intellectuals (including women - some are my relatives who happen to be muslims) have pointed out that one key to prevent the community from sliding to radical islam, and getting brainwashed is to EDUCATE THE MUSLIM WOMEN AND EMPOWER THEM WITH FINANCIAL RESOURCES. They are the ones who will tackle the mullahs and their backward looking preaching.
....This particular issue is indeed a complex one - impossible to put in an "islamic" straight-jacket. The huge and diverse country like India has bits and pieces of solution in different areas and loalities. We need to piece them together.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 06 Feb 2008 03:02

kati wrote:

People can look at the recent Taslima Nasreen fiasco and may get a biased picture of the situation. It is a relatively small but vocal muslim population who eventually got prominance due to media sensation

YS Rajasekhara Reddy is implementing muslim quotas in violation of the constitution as demanded by his MIM partners, so claims that this is a "small and vocal population" seem rather far-fetched. The culprits are still wandering free while Ms. Nasreen is under house arrest, so let us all not start pretending that there is no problem here because "the media gave prominence"...the very fact that Ms. Nasreen has to hide in fear of her life itself is proof enough that something is very wrong with the leadership of Indian muslims that have not garnered support against the fatwas placed by Indian mullahs on Nasreen, and instead supports the Fatwas on Ms. Nasreen.

Instead of questioning the behaviour of these prominent muslims, it is a lot easier to pretend that this was just an abberration in the behaviour of Indian muslims at large...Such a POV does not compute to anyone paying attention to the view vocalized by the "leaders of Indian muslims" and "indian intellectuals" and their mutual back-scratching society.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Feb 2008 06:36

Being a Muslim in Mumbai

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Feb 2008 06:40

You can figure out who has brought out the Sachar Report.

http://www.twocircles.net/2007dec14/mus ... alidi.html

Muslims in Indian economy: interview with Dr. Omar Khalidi
Posted December 14th, 2007 by kashif

Dr. Omar Khalidi is the author of well-researched book 'Muslims in Indian Economy.' This book is a study of conditions of Muslims at all levels of economic ladder and from Muslim dynasties to the post-independent India. Editor of TwoCircles.net Kashif-ul-Huda interviewed him recently about Muslims in Indian economy from past to present.

TCN: What was the status of Muslims under 'Muslim-ruled' India?

OK: At that time Muslims were divided into three groups economically. One was the family of the ruler or the ruling dynasty members at the top of the pyramid. After that was the group consisting of courtiers, landlords, and jagirdars etc. This second group had most wealth, they had land ownership and other resources. The third group at the bottom is where majority of Muslims were. These were peasants, craftsmen, lower rungs of soldiers. So in other words just because Muslims dynasties were ruling does not mean that all Muslims were prosperous.

TCN: Did general Muslims benefit in anyway under these Muslim dynasties that would have encouraged people to convert to Islam?

OK: No, they did not benefit directly. They had to work as hard as anyone else. They were not privileged group during the so called Muslim rule of India. Even when people converted to Islam they remained economically were they were, there was no upward mobility. As a result of their conversion they did acquire social mobility because curse of untouchability was lifted. Disabilities arising as being part of Hindu caste system was no longer relevant. But it did not mean an upward economic mobility.

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* reply

Muslims in India
On December 21st, 2007 Indian Muslim (not verified) says:

Salaam,

The Conditions of Muslims in India is getting from bad to worst.

1) The main reason for this is lack of education.

2)Our ulema are stopping us from education . Well how ?

a) In Couple of Bangalore Mosque , I have heard our Maulvies saying in Friday sermon that our community is getting spoilt because Muslims are sending there childrenâ€™s to school. So the Impact , my friend removed his children from prestigious convent school and has put them in Madrasa.

b)We are discouraged from joining companies like TCS, Infosys ,IBM , Accenture etc because these companies do US and Europe Projects.

c)When saddam is hanged our Ulemas force us to be on streets protesting because some local politician has asked them to do so. How many processions had Saddam taken out for worst conditions of Indian Muslims ?

d)In my life I have never come across a situation were Ulemas have taken out procession for Better roads, Better education and Better sanitation.

e)Only when elections are near by we see our Ulemas speaking about Government policies. And they go into hibernation till next elections.

f)We donâ€™t have a single Tv channel dedicated for this community . When there was a conference in Bangalore to launch a TV channel for Muslims , Our Ulema said that watching TV is haram .So No Channel for Muslims? Well do other Muslim countries donâ€™t have there own TV channels.

g)When a Hindu is born his parents dream that one day he would be a Doctor , Engineer or IAS officer . When Muslim is born in India his parents dream that one day he would become a Auto driver or Open his own Tea Stall or have a Road side Kabab stall.

h)I have hardly come across Muslim entrepreneurs , Educated Muslim Politicians or Educated Ulemas.

e)When Danish cartoon was published , our leaders gave a bounty of 51 cores , Hello can his money be used to provide better education for Muslims ......

Please remember 83% of muslims are below poverty line in India . Thanks to our Ulema .

Modern Education must start from walls of Darululoom-Deoband or Muslims will face much worst scenarios in days to come.

niran · Post by **niran** » 06 Feb 2008 07:47

ramana wrote:That letter to DR. KJ Reddy is a fake. No self respecting fundoo will write in Hindi even if he from Uttar Pradesh.

True. They write in urdu and the footnote always is in english.
Once during Babri riots we treated lots of Muzlim wounded.
1 week later we got around 10 letters informing us
"to touch a muzlim that too their females was unaceptable,
we were to beware of dire consequences if we persisted.
had a grate laugh on them though.
the only muzelim student was made to bear the ridicule.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 06 Feb 2008 08:22

farazhussain wrote:
I think thins are on the right path. But Gujarat is a huge step backward. And a lot of people in this forum are erring on that issue, IMO.

Err. Pardon me if i am incorrect. But, did hindus without provocation cause "gujarat." I am surprised that none of the indians here challenged you on such a blatant falsehood.

The huge step backwash was your co-religionists butchering about 60 hindus (men, women and children as i recall) in the most inhumane manner possible. Then further compounding this horrific crime by preventing emergency services (including firefighers and EMS) from approaching the burning train.

That was the "huge step backward" for which moslems were solely responsible. And a lot of moslems, including yourself, are erring on "that" issue, IMO of course.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 06 Feb 2008 08:32

farazhussain wrote:...............and I didn't really feel alienated or different until 9/11, Gujarat, etc

So, the cause of your (a moslem's) alienation is the USA because it was attacked by moslems and another cause of alienation is hindus because they got barbarically burned along with their families in a train in Gujarat.

And you blame the USA/Hindus for that?? It was not clear if you meant that your "alienation" was due to the fact that moslems committed horrific acts causing the civilized world to view moslems with suspicion? Or was your alienation caused by the USA/Hindus in Gujaret?

TIA.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 06 Feb 2008 08:37

farazhussain wrote:
Given that Islam was born in SaudiA; its culture and tradition are codified in the books and KSA goes about claiming its numero uno Islamic state and the rest of world agrees and wants to emulate; how does your assertion hold water?
KSA can say whatever it wants. And no one tries to emulate them. So you're wrong there.

KSA has no hope at all...........

First, i do agree that the venal sauds have no hope. If not for the oil under their musharraf's, they still be..............(unprintable).

However, i disagree with first part. Their word, as the custodians of your holy places, carries a lot of clout in the islamic world. Especially now that they have funded some $20-30 billion worth of wahhabi mosques all over the world (including a significant number in India as one poster cited sometime ago).

So, i think you are completely wrong there.

archan · Post by **archan** » 06 Feb 2008 08:57

Sadler wrote:
farazhussain wrote:
I think thins are on the right path. But Gujarat is a huge step backward. And a lot of people in this forum are erring on that issue, IMO.
Err. Pardon me if i am incorrect. But, did hindus without provocation cause "gujarat." I am surprised that none of the indians here challenged you on such a blatant falsehood.

No sir, we have challenged. Not only here but on the Indian Muslim blog (where they edited out the comments regarding the rebuttal, so that only their version of the story is seen on their site

). But you know what, this Gujrat thing has gone to a limit that many of us don't even bother. Let them cry, but they should know that if they do another massacre, they will have a response that they will regret for years, like this one. But I just hope people get more civilized and fight their wars on discussion forums and courts rather than on streets.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Feb 2008 10:05

farazhussain wrote:
Given that Islam was born in SaudiA; its culture and tradition are codified in the books and KSA goes about claiming its numero uno Islamic state and the rest of world agrees and wants to emulate; how does your assertion hold water?
KSA can say whatever it wants. And no one tries to emulate them. So you're wrong there.

Sorry Mr Hussain but you are twisting my question and answering a different one. No one wants to emulate KSA for its nation state, and that was not what I asked. However KSA claims that it emulates Islam.

What muslims want to do is emulate Islam; KSA is the perfect Islam place.

What it does it does in the name of Islam. Most of what Koran and Sharia etc say have been written as per Arbaic culture in 700 AD and since then we can see a unbroken continuity of the culture in Arabia.

You didnt answer the question I asked.

How can you support Islam and condemn SaudiA if they are both inextricably linked. You say they are not -- I and Surender provided numerous examples of how it still is.

What do you say to that?

What else is a nations behavior expect sum of its citizens behavior?
No. Not in the case of KSA.

Why not?

Pakistan, yes. What Pakistan says and does, by and large reflects what the elite, influential middle classes want.

And since when does elite middle class become the "people" sir?

Arabs in the Middle East are in general backward and there is no political awareness. They are all watching and sitting on their asses while they're being screwed by the White Man for the last 80 years. When do they get up and ever do anything? They have absolutely no future, in my opinion.

Which is fine; but as long as they have oil they fund Pakis and deobandis and what not. When there is no oil they will export both Men and ideas for a Jehad.

But anyway we already know that we know their future. The point is not that.

Its the answer to the question -- how do you separate Islam and Arabia.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Feb 2008 10:16

farazhussain wrote:
I think thins are on the right path. But Gujarat is a huge step backward. And a lot of people in this forum are erring on that issue, IMO.

Translation -- India was well on its way to becoming a Islamic country from a mildly Islamic one today. Gujarat threw a spanner in the works.

Folks just don't realize how important Gujarat was.

My Hussain; if you are really liberal; which some folks in the forum want to assume about you; you have to give up this false sense of hurt and you have to look at things as they are.

Blaming others for Islams own ills and defending it is not the hall mark of a liberal.

If you are a liberal; I guess the point has already been made isn't it?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Feb 2008 10:35

Meanwhile just so we don't lose track of reality as a result of denial --

After Singur and Nandigram, Buddha has a new headache called Dinhata

when they were protesting against the state governmentâ€™s failure to implement the job guarantee scheme and to give enough jobs to Muslims.

Presumably all the Hindoos there were already employed.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Feb 2008 10:44

farazhussain wrote:If some attitudes persist, that leaves no room for me even to talk.

Buddy you are a novelty here. The problem is really that what you need to do is not be in denial; that will attract even more posts countering you.

Second; I think as IM you have to listen; why are these questions being thrown? What are the facts people are talking of; don't be in denial and then you will find that you will fit right in.

Dont feel obliged to defend Islam; you are not its spokesman speak only for yourself.

Of course you may chose to take exception to what I have to say in this post and thus be exactly in the same situation as before. Your choice really.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Feb 2008 10:49

Sanku wrote:
farazhussain wrote:
I think thins are on the right path. But Gujarat is a huge step backward. And a lot of people in this forum are erring on that issue, IMO.

Translation -- India was well on its way to becoming a Islamic country from a mildly Islamic one today. Gujarat threw a spanner in the works.

Folks just don't realize how important Gujarat was.

My Hussain; if you are really liberal; which some folks in the forum want to assume about you; you have to give up this false sense of hurt and you have to look at things as they are.

Blaming others for Islams own ills and defending it is not the hall mark of a liberal.

If you are a liberal; I guess the point has already been made isn't it?

Backwardness of Muslim society caused by Islam perfected in 6th century should not become kaffir's problem in this 21st century. All these years i have been searching for a Islamic charity organization working for the welfare of Non Muslims. A very tough search and have no found one such institution funded by Muslims. May be Kwaja or his friends can point out such great organization set up by them or their co religioists before claiming the right of help over kaffir people.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 06 Feb 2008 11:37

Dear FarazHussain,

Nice to have you here. I seek one small clarification from you.

As far as i know, Allah is the god of Muslims and Prophet Mohammed is a human being who spoke on behalf of Allah. Now, who among the above two do Muslims revere more? Please reply.

But one thing is very apparent. Quran, as we all know, was written by the Prophet, alone. It is very likely that he might have erred in many aspects. Also many Islamic codes and practices which might have been suitable in 7th century Arabia, need not be suitable today. Why do all Muslims still follow something that was written by ONE person long back. Why doesnt every Muslim start worshiping Allah in his own way without going by existing rules.
Why is every Muslim compelled to unconditionally follow the Prophet if he has to please divine Allah?

From the look of things it appears that Muslims follow the Prophet more than Allah himself.

No offense meant.

Regards,
Prashanth.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 06 Feb 2008 11:56

Faraz, you mentioned that Guajat was a step backward but you did not say anything about Kashmir or 84-Delhi. Below are some facts and info about Gujarat riots. But for the moment assume that 60 Muslims are burnt alive by Hindus in a Muslim majority state (say J&K) or in some Muslim districts in Asaam or WB. What will be the reaction of Muslims then? Police or no police, could Hindus survive in those districts? Let me know what you think, if history is any guide.

It is surprising that many riots happened during the Congress rule but Muslims kept voting them back to power. Probably because Congress escaped the scrutiny of media which has cultivated good relationship with Congress during its rule of almost 55 years.

Mr. Faraz, please take out some time to read the following and go through some the following links (I would urge you to think for a moment as an outsider leaving aside your Muslim identity and form an opinion as a referee). This is has been posted earlier too on BRF but for the benefit of Mr. Faraz, I am posting it again.

1) Regarding Gujarat Riots
---------------------------------
[quote]They-THE SECULARISTS - are at it once again.
â€œIt was a well planned â€˜GENOCIDEâ€™â€

niran · Post by **niran** » 06 Feb 2008 11:59

deleted
sorry Sir. won't happen again.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Feb 2008 13:53

ajay pratap wrote:Dear Folks,
Methinks dear Mr. Hussain has left the forum,Period.
Pity, was lining up a few doubts. well untill then
back to lurk mode

That is a needless and possibly unkind post in the genre of "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

I do hope he is able to come on here. He has tried sincerely to answer a lot of things - and I think we on the forum must understand how forum dynamics work. After all we do our timepass on a forum that does not demand answers from us the way answers have been asked of faraz.

Note that Faraz has been "assaulted" by many people slamming him with questions that are difficult to answer at the best of times. And a short absence from the forum has ajay pratap declaring that he has left.

No Indian Muslim can survive on this forum under such intense interrogation unless he is extremely thick skinned. I hope forum members will remember this the next time someone comes along and asks the question "Why are there no Indian Muslims on here?".

No doubt everyone wants answers and everyone is curious - but how much time and patience can be expected from anyone?

May I suggest that people go easy on Faraz Hussain and post their views rather than interrogating him. Of course it is likely that this post will have an effect on most people who read it, but sooner or later there will be another half a dozen people who get attracted by Faraz and this thread and come on here with more interrogation.

A forum such as this in which it is easy to demand answers to difficult questions and declare lack of answers as culpability is rarely good for useful debate on this sort of subject until we can achieve collective advancement as debaters who know where to draw lines. Everyone wants answers - but ultimately Faraz is like anyone else - with limited time, personal opinions and emotions.

Bharat Rakshak

Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 5

Sania issue

Re: Sania issue