Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 5

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Postby Sanku » 04 Feb 2008 13:51

Self deleted -- the doctor has administered the medicine.

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Postby archan » 04 Feb 2008 16:04

I liked the discussion on the indisnmuslims blog where Shiv posted some insightful stuff. Mr. Kaleem seems to have responded well to it and has rightfully accepted that his article was lacking the important bit about introspection among the Muslim community itself. The discussion has largely been constructive and for a change, the blame-game is kept to a minimum. Great stuff. Lots to learn.

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Postby JCage » 04 Feb 2008 16:30

Re Adux:

If there ever was an idiot that deserved banning, it was this one.

Obsessed with caste, his being mallu and superior to north indians or tamilians (who have language issues), cribs about discrimination while feeding off the state and has enough moolah to traipse around Europe, abuses each and every poster who responds to him politely (called Shaurya an idiot, Sanku a "*****" which the board software edited out, uses terms like "orgy of hinduism" and whatnot)...sheesh. And then wants to play the victim.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 04 Feb 2008 17:08

Re: Adux

I have interacted with many such muddle-headed Hindus who retain some kind of hatred of Hinduism and are impossible to argue with. They will keep flitting from one topic to another, without bringing any argument to a conclusion, and will keep ignoring arguments where they think they will be pinned down.

Mostly these people come from Communist ruled states (Kerala and Bengal) and imbibe the general propaganda of the party about Hinduism and Indian society. They keep calling themselves Hindus but are rabid opponents of anyone who articulates Hindu interests. It is very unnatural behaviour. These are brainwashed Hindus who are in clutches of leftist / commie philosophy and do not allow their intellect to go beyond ready-made swear words that are handed down to them, such as Brahminism, caste system, Hindu facists, genocide of minorities and so on. Truly muddle-headed people who are Nehru clones. These turn out to be quite useful idiots for enemies of India and our civilisation, and are put to full use by them.

Their arguments are all superficial and hollow, and can easily be countered in an honest debate. They know that they will not be able to defend their views if pressed hard. So they develope a survival strategy for any debate -- keep changing arguments, keep changing topics, don't get pinned down, don't spend too much time behind any line of reasoning, do not allow others to dig too far, retain some kind of frivilousness and non-seriousness, when the going gets tough, dissappear and then reappear after a couple of weeks to start some new debate, use swear words for people who are patiently giving honest arguments against your position, and so on.

I interacted with one such muddle-headed Mallu on the Lonely Planet forum called "Ashique." After some time, even some Goras on the forum started ridiculing him and calling him a crank. Other Goras started egging him on and praising his views whenever he started off about the Hindu fundamentalists.

Really, I have begun to think of such muddle headed Hindus as genetic garbage produced by India.

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Postby shiv » 04 Feb 2008 17:28

sanjaychoudhry wrote:Their arguments are all superficial and hollow, and can easily be countered in an honest debate. They know that they will not be able to defend their views if pressed hard. So they develope a survival strategy for any debate -- keep changing arguments, keep changing topics, don't get pinned down, don't spend too much time behind any line of reasoning, do not allow others to dig too far, retain some kind of frivilousness and non-seriousness, when the going gets tough, dissappear and then reappear after a couple of weeks to start some new debate, use swear words for people who are patiently giving honest arguments against your position, and so on.


Let us please stop discussing this.

This is the behavior of a troll

This guy's tactics were exactly like those of three other people who were banned earlier and may be the same guy. Only this time I caught on early.

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Postby Sumeet » 04 Feb 2008 20:10

For once I was happy to see wakf types coming up with constructive ideas and only to find that it didn't last more than a few mins. Don't know how much of this money will go into funding anti national activities. And for once why can't they think of the benefit of poor people of the region. Why see through the eyes of religion -- upliftment of Muslims ?

A poor muslim needs as much help as poor hindu or sikh etc.. Why not help poor Indians ?


Wakf proposes electronic city

[quote]
Hyderabad, Feb. 3: The Wakf Board will reap a windfall from the ‘Electronic City’ proposed to be set up on 1,200 acres on the outskirts of the city. According to an estimate by the state government, which recently acknowledged the board’s ownership of the land at Alur village in Chevalla, the project will earn the Wakf Board at least Rs 300 crore per annum. The board has an annual budget of just Rs 6 crore.


The government initially thought of handing over the land and the project to Andhra Pradesh Industrial Infrastructure Corporation. APIIC, however, proposed that the Wakf Board be declared as the owner and the two agencies would jointly explore how to make best use of the land. “We held a series of discussions and agreed to develop the project in a manner that the would not compromise the governing principles of the Wakf Board,â€

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Kaleem Kawaja on the Hyderabad Assault on Taslima Nasrin

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Feb 2008 07:28

Originally posted on India Forum

indianmuslims@yahoogroups.com
From: "Kaleem Kawaja" <kaleemkawaja@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:12:40 -0400
Kaleem Kawaja

WAS,
While I am against violent protests and indulging in hooligan acts, even in
the face of provocateuers like Tasleema Nasreen, I support the MIM protest
against the event where Tasleema's blasphemous book was being launched. It
is unfortunate that a few MIM folks got over-excited and indulged in violence.

However MIM should make all other efforts to prevent Tasleema from
publicising her blasphemous and anti-Islam provocations everywhere,
especially in Andhra Pradesh. And MIM should isolate those who help
organize such events to promote Tasleema. How dare she come to Hyderabad -
one of the prominent citadels of Islamic civilization - and indulge in such
terrorism.
She must be stopped.

This is not ftreedom of speech. This is a terrorist bent on humiliating and
hurting Muslims's religious sentiments.

Kaleem Kawaja

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Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Feb 2008 08:07

So one must not hurt one's religious sentiments. But the koran is to be expected, eh? It demonstarbly is injurious to many people's religious beliefs. Shall we give it the Satanic Verses treatment? I am sure you will understand.

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Postby nkumar » 05 Feb 2008 08:20

However MIM should make all other efforts to prevent Tasleema from
publicising her blasphemous and anti-Islam provocations everywhere,
especially in Andhra Pradesh. And MIM should isolate those who help
organize such events to promote Tasleema. How dare she come to Hyderabad - one of the prominent citadels of Islamic civilization - and indulge in such
terrorism.
She must be stopped.


I am coming to the conclusion that there are no such people known as "moderate Muslims". Last time "moderate and educated Muslims" were accomodated by Gandhi, they carved out a separate country out of India.

GS: You are right that there will be a demand for Pakistan-2 whenever Muslims form a critical mass on the eastern front but this time they will not be successful, simply because this time umpires (both police and army) are overwhelmingly Hindus.

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Postby archan » 05 Feb 2008 08:45

Now playing victim and churning out sentimental stories is not a new tactic....but it still makes my heart feel warm and fuzzy to learn that I belong to a community of victimizers who would ask a Muslim the moment I see one - "Are you a mohemmaden?"
Taare Zameen Par And Stereotyping Muslims
Written by Syeda Semim Zahan · February 04, 2008
[quote] I also wrote my name and address on the envelope. SEMIM 2047 OUTRAM LINES DELHI 9 (I hardly write my full name on the cover of envelopes). Out came the query from one of the DTDC persons,

“Madam, aap mahammedan ho?â€

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Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Feb 2008 08:57

nkumar wrote:
However MIM should make all other efforts to prevent Tasleema from
publicising her blasphemous and anti-Islam provocations everywhere,
especially in Andhra Pradesh. And MIM should isolate those who help
organize such events to promote Tasleema. How dare she come to Hyderabad - one of the prominent citadels of Islamic civilization - and indulge in such
terrorism.
She must be stopped.


I am coming to the conclusion that there are no such people known as "moderate Muslims". Last time "moderate and educated Muslims" were accomodated by Gandhi, they carved out a separate country out of India.

GS: You are right that there will be a demand for Pakistan-2 whenever Muslims form a critical mass on the eastern front but this time they will not be successful, simply because this time umpires (both police and army) are overwhelmingly Hindus.


I am not so sure
In CRPF, the UPA is hiring muslims at 20% quota
This was posted on BRF

In Assam. the home minister of state, Rockybul Husain is a muslim, and I saw a news report that 70% of all new police hires were muslims, and this was challenged in the Assam high court

Also, IMHO, the new pakistans are formed street by street
They keep it under the threshold, and defacto, many districts in north east have been annexed by BD
Last edited by G Subramaniam on 05 Feb 2008 09:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 08:58

Of course, we Hindus keep track of you all, just in case we need a target in case there is a riot. Oh you poor victims!


Sarcasm. Fine. But on this one, she's right. There are many Muslims who are innocent and are genuinely afraid. Many Muslims were killed using voters lists. Are you denying that?

Oh yes! Godhara! how we massacred the 'innocent' peace loving minority community.

Not you. Many rioters did that.

More sarcasm. Great. So why are you resorting to insinuations? Just say what your opinion is of Indian Muslims, or Islam itself, and please let it come up through the Indian political system up to the highest level, in writing. That will make it easier for all and remove the confusion.

You don't think any innocent Muslims were killed in Gujarat? If yes, then do you support that?

Considering how they repeatedly label India as a Hindu state, Indian govts. are Hindu govts. and Hindus as victimizers of the oh so patriotic Muslims....one wonders, if we are going to be labeled that anyway, then why not work towards actually making it a Hindu state.


Who are you referring to by "they"?

Indian Governments and politicians are mostly Hindu. That's true. But Muslims don't refer to India as Hindu state.

And IMO, if there is a consensus that India should be a "Hindu country" that's perfectly fine with me. So now the ball's in your court. Please do make your opinion known.



[/i]

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Postby Vijnan » 05 Feb 2008 09:01


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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 09:06

Actually, regarding the above article, I think the most dangerous part is the title itself.

The article itself seems like a scathing criticism of the "Taliban Government" although it amazes me how he could have had such high hopes from them.

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Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Feb 2008 09:12

There are many Muslims who are innocent and are genuinely afraid. Many Muslims were killed using voters lists. Are you denying that?

Just out of curiosity.

Do Muslims really believe they have a right to life and liberty in dar-ul-harb? If so why?

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Elst article on low level ethnic cleansing of Indian Hindus

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Feb 2008 09:18

I believe he had Juhupura in mind,

http://www.caribbeanhindu.net/cleansing_of_hindus.htm


.5. Small-scale cleansing throughout India

In many pockets of Muslim concentration in India, non-Muslims are slowly cleansed out. This is sometimes done in an unplanned manner, but in most cases one can discern the rudiments of a strategy behind it. In some southern cities, major Hindu temples have been isolated from their constituency of worshippers after Muslims strategically bought up all the real estate around the temple. In Ahmedabad, Hindus have practically been driven out of the old city.

In such an important economic centre, the planning by Muslim Gulf-based mafias was obvious. One Muslim, or his Hindu stooge, would buy up a house in a Hindu neighbourhood, overruling the Hindu owner's misgivings by offering a price far above the market value. This would eventually prove to be a very profitable investment. The next stage is that life for Hindus is made uncomfortable, initially in perfectly legal ways, e.g. a halâl butchery is opened in the middle of a vegetarian community where people find the mere smell of meat nauseating. Then invariably follows eve-teasing of Hindu girls, acts of disrespect to elderly Hindus, some petty but in-your-face robbery. The first Hindus now put up their house for sale, and again the mafia coffers are available to ensure a decent price, though now not much above market value anymore. Muslim youngsters start hanging out in larger numbers, holding out the threat of rape, and finally commit an actual rape. A bogus Hindu provocation of Muslim sentiments is enacted and a communal riot ensues. The conviviality of the Hindu Bania neighbourhood now good and well destroyed, Hindus start panic-selling their houses. Finally, the whole neighbourhood falls into Muslim hands for a song. The mafia dons distribute the loot among their supporters.

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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 09:19

Sanjaykumar:

I have no intention of getting into any discussion with you based on your understanding of Islam; not in this thread.

You should let your opinion known. You posed this question, not me. So you should now clarify if you think Muslims should have the "right to life and liberty" in India.

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Postby archan » 05 Feb 2008 09:23

farazhussain wrote:
Of course, we Hindus keep track of you all, just in case we need a target in case there is a riot. Oh you poor victims!


Sarcasm. Fine. But on this one, she's right. There are many Muslims who are innocent and are genuinely afraid. Many Muslims were killed using voters lists. Are you denying that?

No I am not denying that. Just because one is born in a Hindu family does not make one pious. My gripe with articles such as these is that using one or two incidents they try to portray a wrong image of our society in general. Reading it one would think that the postman was keeping a note of where the Muslim woman lives....just in case there is a riot. Wah!
Of course she is entitled to her views and is free to write about them. So am I!
Oh yes! Godhara! how we massacred the 'innocent' peace loving minority community.

Not you. Many rioters did that.

More sarcasm. Great. So why are you resorting to insinuations? Just say what your opinion is of Indian Muslims, or Islam itself, and please let it come up through the Indian political system up to the highest level, in writing. That will make it easier for all and remove the confusion.

You don't think any innocent Muslims were killed in Gujarat? If yes, then do you support that?

If I state my opinion even in writing, it won't do any good since you have already made your opinion of me. So let me not bother on that. Yes, many innocent Muslims died, and it should not have happened. But was it just a short circuit that caused the whole coach full of Hindu pilgrims just go ablaze?
Considering how they repeatedly label India as a Hindu state, Indian govts. are Hindu govts. and Hindus as victimizers of the oh so patriotic Muslims....one wonders, if we are going to be labeled that anyway, then why not work towards actually making it a Hindu state.


Who are you referring to by "they"?

Indian Governments and politicians are mostly Hindu. That's true. But Muslims don't refer to India as Hindu state.

Can you speak for all Muslims? I certainly don't speak for all Hindus.
And IMO, if there is a consensus that India should be a "Hindu country" that's perfectly fine with me. So now the ball's in your court. Please do make your opinion known.

[/i]

"They" are people like this oh-so-afraid lady who posts stories to try and depict the nation in a bad light. "They" are the people who do not let the minister enter the market of Old Hyderabad's Muslim area for inspection. "They" are the people who make a mockery of the constitution of my country at any opportunity they get. And those who do not do this, regardless of their religion, are not "they". I know my last comment was caustic sarcasm, but no, I do not want India to become a "Hindu" state since in my opinion, religion, God etc are concepts with different relevance to each individual and cannot be enforced through constitution. You might see Indian governments are made of mostly Hindus, but I see them as Indians. And obviously, what do you expect in a country of 80% "Hindu" population? to you it does not matter that a Kashmiri pundit may find precious little in common with a Tamilian brahmin, or a Bengali would find hard to communicate with a Gujrati if they didn't use English. I see the government made up of people from different regions of India, all Indians. You see it as a Hindu majority with little representation to Muslims. Perhaps because you color the society in two colors only?

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The coming fire in the east

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Feb 2008 09:30

In kashmir, there are only 7 mil muslims, and the insurgency has gone on for 20 years, and the pandits have not yet returned home
IMHO, it is more a matter of lack of will of the Indian state than lack of capability

Ranjit Singh was able to rule kashmir with just a few thousand sikhs

However, if we look at the north east
We see the following picture
Assam = 7 mil muslims
WB = 20 mil muslims
North East Bihar = 4 mil muslims

So we are dealing with 31 mil muslims not 7, the problem is 4 times worse

In India, the secularists separate the kashmiri muslims from the rest of Indian muslims
Soon they will be separating Indian muslim behavior from North east muslim behavior

The only way to quench the fire is to dilute the islam %

Evacuating the remaining 10 mil BD non-muslims into that area will reduce the muslim % below critical mass

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Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Feb 2008 09:38

You should let your opinion known. You posed this question, not me. So you should now clarify if you think Muslims should have the "right to life and liberty" in India.


Well let's see-in Kashmir Hindu lives are worth less than dogs, in Pakistan Hindus are fit for serfdom, in Saudia Hindus are officially weighted as being worth the least in legal cases. You don't have to engage me in my understanding of Islam. I understand Islam very well, thank you. My query to you is not as a Hindu but as a liberal; but one who has no time for 'hurt sentiments' nonsense.

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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 09:41

My gripe with articles such as these is that using one or two incidents they try to portray a wrong image of our society in general.


I actually agree with you there. IMO, on such sensitive issues, the writer should exercise caution and not make the situation seem worse than it is. No author should generalize or make isolated incidents seem the norm.

So if you had said that, I'd wholeheartedly agree.

However, the fear of Muslims, paranoia even, is understandable to me.

If I state my opinion even in writing, it won't do any good since you have already made your opinion of me.

Actually I haven't :-). I think I know what you may say, if the general trend on this forum is any indicator, but I don't assume anything :)

But was it just a short circuit that caused the whole coach full of Hindu pilgrims just go ablaze?


No. It was the local Gujarati Ghanchi Muslims who are responsible. They should be punished severely.



Can you speak for all Muslims? I certainly don't speak for all Hindus.


You are right. I don't. I stand corrected. Its just my opinion that Muslims are integrating in the proverbial mainstream because of education, and its working. This is why I strongly disagree with those on this forum who say or insinuate that Gujarat pogroms were either good or beneficial as a deterrent, etc. You should be firm with Muslim criminals/terrorists. You don't have to (with apologies to the BJP), appease.. But what happened there alienates the Muslims who are already integrated and who see themselves are very Indian (contrary to what many here feel).



"They" are people like this oh-so-afraid lady who posts stories to try and depict the nation in a bad light. "They" are the people who do not let the minister enter the market of Old Hyderabad's Muslim area for inspection. "They" are the people who make a mockery of the constitution of my country at any opportunity they get. And those who do not do this, regardless of their religion, are not "they".


You're off on a tangent now, but any criminal action from Muslims or incitement or any dangerous activity even, must be taken seriously and dealt with. No doubt about that. But I'm not in favor of the tone here in general and I say exactly what you just wrote: This forum, including this thread is not presenting the true picture of Muslim in India. A lot of good things are happening and everyone here seem so be mainly focusing on the bad stuff.

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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 09:52

Well let's see-in Kashmir Hindu lives are worth less than dogs, in Pakistan Hindus are fit for serfdom, in Saudia Hindus are officially weighted as being worth the least in legal cases. You don't have to engage me in my understanding of Islam. I understand Islam very well, thank you. My query to you is not as a Hindu but as a liberal; but one who has no time for 'hurt sentiments' nonsense.


First things first: If I could help if Saudi Arabia would not even exist as a country in the world. Its a shame for all Muslims and I duly apologize for its existence and policies. However, as a common Indian Muslims, I can't influence them and so can't do anything more than criticize them and say sorry. They are not representative of us.

Pakistan: Pakistani minorities situation is not good. Many educated Pakistanis (most of whose thinking is flawed at all levels) accept that. But I'll also tell you that despite being convinced that Pakistanis are erring at the highest level, I don't think its true that most of them are permanently anti-Hindu. Sorry if this seems like a defense of Pakistanis - its not meant to be that.

And one Muslim from Gujarat told me the same thing - Muslim life is worse than that of a dog there. I believe him.

What you're engaging in is polemics.

And Saudis are the most uneducated illiterate people in the world. You should know that. Their dark ages will never end.

But they too, and I'm saying this since I've met them, are not anti-Hindu. They are generally backward vagabond Bedouin tribes. That's why the Brits created this country "Saudi" Arabia and put the desert Arabs in charge of the vital region..

You think they are representative of all Muslims. Fine. That's not the reality IMO.

They know nothing about this world except for perhaps two things: Arab, non-Arab, but I digress...

Raju

Postby Raju » 05 Feb 2008 09:56

You are right. I don't. I stand corrected. Its just my opinion that Muslims are integrating in the proverbial mainstream because of education, and its working. This is why I strongly disagree with those on this forum who say or insinuate that Gujarat pogroms were either good or beneficial as a deterrent, etc. You should be firm with Muslim criminals/terrorists. You don't have to (with apologies to the BJP), appease.. But what happened there alienates the Muslims who are already integrated and who see themselves are very Indian (contrary to what many here feel).


well said.

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Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Feb 2008 10:01

farazhussain, take care you are too Indianised and that will lead you to trouble and it won't be from Hindus. I say this as a wellwisher.

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Postby archan » 05 Feb 2008 10:10

farazhussain wrote:
This forum, including this thread is not presenting the true picture of Muslim in India. A lot of good things are happening and everyone here seem so be mainly focusing on the bad stuff.

Actually the absence of Indian Muslim posters has been discussed here before. I can see why a Muslim would find the tone over here harsh. You don't have to agree with it. Nor can anyone vouch for the behavior of each and every one who posts here. Also please remember that sometimes the real thought gets distorted when put into words...this is something I have learnt after I started reading this forum. People who sound harsh in some posts aren't necessarily so all the time. There are exceptions of course. On forums, one has to eventually agree to disagree and move on; absorbing the best out of the discussions that ensued.
A lot of good things are happening and everyone here seem so be mainly focusing on the bad stuff.

If possible, please post about them. I would like to learn about them too. I have started the indianmuslims blog and should come across some such efforts sooner or later but biased articles like the one I posted about just make me close the webpage in disgust.

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Postby Sanku » 05 Feb 2008 10:31

farazhussain wrote:First things first: If I could help if Saudi Arabia would not even exist as a country in the world. Its a shame for all Muslims and I duly apologize for its existence and policies. However, as a common Indian Muslims, I can't influence them and so can't do anything more than criticize them and say sorry. They are not representative of us.


Faraz; if Saudi Barbaria did not exist; and I am assuming you are talking of the geographic landmass and related entities and not the nation state; probably neither would Islam.

Islam and Saudi Barbaria are intricately linked; even today there is no work of Islamic theology done which is independent of its Arabic roots.

Just like HISI (India Hindu Secular Intellectual) you are suffering from sever cognitive dissonance; but that is to be only expected and you cant help that.

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Postby surinder » 05 Feb 2008 10:36

[quote="archan"]Now playing victim and churning out sentimental stories is not a new tactic....but it still makes my heart feel warm and fuzzy to learn that I belong to a community of victimizers who would ask a Muslim the moment I see one - "Are you a mohemmaden?"
Taare Zameen Par And Stereotyping Muslims
Written by Syeda Semim Zahan · February 04, 2008
[quote] I also wrote my name and address on the envelope. SEMIM 2047 OUTRAM LINES DELHI 9 (I hardly write my full name on the cover of envelopes). Out came the query from one of the DTDC persons,

“Madam, aap mahammedan ho?â€

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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 10:43

Faraz; if Saudi Barbaria did not exist; and I am assuming you are talking of the geographic landmass and related entities and not the nation state; probably neither would Islam.


I am of course talking of the so called nation "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" with its backward leaders and laws, etc. Its actually unfair of anyone to blame its people for its policies - because its people are completely ignorant and unfit to live in the modern world.

Islam and Saudi Barbaria are intricately linked; even today there is no work of Islamic theology done which is independent of its Arabic roots.

No, Islam's study and practice is *not* inextricably linked with the modern day "KSA".

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Postby surinder » 05 Feb 2008 10:49

farazhussain wrote:If I could help if Saudi Arabia would not even exist as a country in the world. Its a shame for all Muslims and I duly apologize for its existence and policies. However, as a common Indian Muslims, I can't influence them and so can't do anything more than criticize them and say sorry. They are not representative of us.


You are certainly a reasonable person, so please do not take it personally. But I wish to point out a confusing stance. Many Muslims friends when talking to non-Muslims express disgust for Saudi Arabia. But *NONE* of the 1.5 billion Muslims have ever organized *ANY* kind of protest to ask Saudi Arabia to make changes in its policy. Or even a march, or protest, or letters to editor to ask Saudi Arabia to give equality to non-Muslims. Not only is there complete silence on part of Muslims, but there is reverence for them. It is a logical conclusion that Muslims actually agree with Saudi policies that pertain to treatment of non-Muslims.

I hope you will not fault me when I say all this talk of criticizing of Saudi-Arabia is just for our kaafir consumption.

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Postby Sanku » 05 Feb 2008 11:21

Oh before I continue; I want you to know that I have Muslims married into my family and my personal physician and a great friend is a Muslim.

farazhussain wrote:I am of course talking of the so called nation "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" with its backward leaders and laws, etc. Its actually unfair of anyone to blame its people for its policies - because its people are completely ignorant and unfit to live in the modern world.


What else is a nations behavior expect sum of its citizens behavior?

Yes I agree with you on SaudiA; surprisingly why are its people ignorant to live in the modern world. What you need to ponder on is why?

Islam and Saudi Barbaria are intricately linked; even today there is no work of Islamic theology done which is independent of its Arabic roots.

No, Islam's study and practice is *not* inextricably linked with the modern day "KSA".


Thats why I said a cognitive dissonance. I dont expect you to be able to accept that; at least not right off the bat without spending some time on BRF for reeducation. :P

Given that Islam was born in SaudiA; its culture and tradition are codified in the books and KSA goes about claiming its numero uno Islamic state and the rest of world agrees and wants to emulate; how does your assertion hold water?

Islam in the form it was always meant to be is practiced in SaudiA; all else is a pale copy trying to become better. Given the reams of data we see to the contrary how will you convince any one but yourself that what you are saying is correct?
Last edited by Sanku on 05 Feb 2008 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 05 Feb 2008 11:25

surinder wrote:I hope you will not fault me when I say all this talk of criticizing of Saudi-Arabia is just for our kaafir consumption.


No not entirely; Faraz needs this cognitive dissonance to be both a Muslim as well as a modern liberal person. He needs it even more to be in touch with his Indic heritage and Indic site of things.

He is a Dhimmi within Islam; a MISI (counterpart of HISI).

Faraz -- Please note It is a critizim not slander.

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Postby farazhussain » 05 Feb 2008 11:44

You are certainly a reasonable person, so please do not take it personally. But I wish to point out a confusing stance. Many Muslims friends when talking to non-Muslims express disgust for Saudi Arabia. But *NONE* of the 1.5 billion Muslims have ever organized *ANY* kind of protest to ask Saudi Arabia to make changes in its policy. Or even a march, or protest, or letters to editor to ask Saudi Arabia to give equality to non-Muslims. Not only is there complete silence on part of Muslims, but there is reverence for them. It is a logical conclusion that Muslims actually agree with Saudi policies that pertain to treatment of non-Muslims.


Well, I don't think in this case silence means agreement. Most Muslim of course are too poor, illiterate to do anything about this. Its only up to the educated, influential Muslims in various countries who can do anything. The thing is how much do Muslims do anything about what's happening elsewhere (except in all out war or heavy, regular violence)?

Turkey anti-hijab laws, for example. What did anyone else do? Or the much talked about Gujarat violence. That's certainly very serious. How many Muslim countries even mentioned this?

Plus, I think mot Muslims don't know about Saudi's laws. I certainly didn't know until I read it on BR a couple of years back.


I hope you will not fault me when I say all this talk of criticizing of Saudi-Arabia is just for our kaafir consumption.


Well I definitely will criticize them anywhere, anytime. But I went too far with you since I was attacked harshly. Indian Muslims don't need to apologize for Saudi Arabia, or any other country's actions, including Pakistan.

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Postby amit » 05 Feb 2008 12:10

farazhussain wrote:
Well I definitely will criticize them anywhere, anytime. But I went too far with you since I was attacked harshly. Indian Muslims don't need to apologize for Saudi Arabia, or any other country's actions, including Pakistan.


Faraz,

I fully agree with bolded part of your last post.

Indian Muslims really don't need to be burdened by the sins or shortcomings of Saudia or Pakistan.

I do, however, think that Indian Muslims - the liberal elements within the ranks, such as you - need to be more proactive in letting people know that the overwhelmingly majority of Indian Muslims want is to live out ordinary peaceful life as citizens of India taking advantages of the opportunities that economic growth has presented to improve their lives.

You have stated that you've been reading BRF for the past few years. In that case I think you understand that behind all the hyperbole, arguments, counter arguments, the underlying theme is a sense of sadness that Indian Muslims have not come out in the open and said enough is enough, we will fight for our rights as citizens of India and not as Muslims who happen to be based in a country called India.

I know that's easier said than done, as due to historical circumstances the vast majority of Indian Muslims are poor, poorly educated and backward. However, a start has to be made somewhere by people such as you who have a clear perspective of what is right and what is wrong.

I have dear friend who's a Muslim and he and his very religious family, especially his mother, have taught me something that gives me hope, despite all the mayhem around us.

They have shown me that one can be a proud Indian and a proud Muslim at the same time. Multiple identities are the core of Indian ness. There is hope and things are not as bad as they seem.

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Postby Sanku » 05 Feb 2008 12:16

farazhussain wrote:Well, I don't think in this case silence means agreement. Most Muslim of course are too poor, illiterate to do anything about this. Its only up to the educated, influential Muslims in various countries who can do anything. The thing is how much do Muslims do anything about what's happening elsewhere (except in all out war or heavy, regular violence)?


Its intresting you bring up this demarcation. So when IM (Indian Muslims) go about in various interesting experiments of social control through peaceful demonstrations. Such as when a kabr is sought to be shifted for a road; a Cartoonist draws else where; when he does not send is daughter to a school or son to a non-madarassa etc etc..

In those cases do the Influential folks come in? Or does the poor Abdul manage to throw stones against the cartoonist all by himself?

Yet the same combination is silent when SaudiA is in picture?

So yes; silence alone does not mean much; but what you are silent on and what you are not does speak a lot Sort of like Yudhishtir and Ashwatthhama.

How many Muslim countries even mentioned this?


Really? All secular Muslims did and the unsecular ones did not since they knew they would be calling it upon themselves.


Well I definitely will criticize them anywhere, anytime. But I went too far with you since I was attacked harshly. Indian Muslims don't need to apologize for Saudi Arabia, or any other country's actions, including Pakistan.


No they don't need to apologize for any country's action. But if you see no apology was asked for -- what was asked for as genuine proactive criticism just as other bad things are criticized; and there are lots of bad things that are criticized all the time.

So silence is fine; but the issues on which you are silent and on which you speak says a lot.

Why do IMs say that they are being asked to apologize for SaudiA when all is asked is that they join in general chorus of critisism?

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Postby shyam » 05 Feb 2008 12:23

Faraz,

According to you, what percentage of Indian muslims think like you?
What should be done to make them more vocal?

We see moderate muslims like Kawaja, and you must have noticed what kind of jerk he is.

Is it correct if I say if I say from your name that you are a Shia.

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Postby surinder » 05 Feb 2008 12:25

Sanku wrote:So yes; silence alone does not mean much; but what you are silent on and what you are not does speak a lot

...

Why do IMs say that they are being asked to apologize for SaudiA when all is asked is that they join in general chorus of critisism?[/b]


Sanku,

Well said.

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Postby surinder » 05 Feb 2008 12:38

farazhussain wrote:Well, I don't think in this case silence means agreement. Most Muslim of course are too poor, illiterate to do anything about this.


Why not. Silence is everything. The Christians of Europe were silent when Jews were killed. Christians of Europe were again silent when S. American natives were massacred. Muslims were silent when Pandits were driven away. West was silent when South Africa had apartheid. Silence is deafening.

In the entire Ummah of 1.5 billion there does not exist 100 Muslims who will do something for the minorities in Saudi Arabia. Mind you, Saudi Arabia to Muslims is not any other Tom, Dick & Harry country. That is the country that has the Holy places. What Saudy Arabia does reflects on what Islam is and supposed to be. None of the 1.5billion care that Islam is not being administered correctly by the Saudis?

There are millions of Mosques, Imaams, Mullahs in the world. Not one of them could issue a Fatwa to denounce Saudi treatment of minorities? Not one. Just one?

Maybe, just maybe, the reason why Muslims are silent is that they agree with Saudi Arabia. Maybe the Muslims know that Saudi Arabia's actions are actually in AGREEMENT with Islam. Do you think there might be this teeny-weeny possibility?

Well, actually us Kaafirs are not that stupid, you know. We can read the Quran and the Hadiths. A simple reading of that is enough to show that non-Muslims (Jews, Poluthiests, Christians) were purged from Arabia. Islam has forbidden presence of Kaafirs in Mosques. Islam's views on non-Muslims are not hidden, you see.


The thing is how much do Muslims do anything about what's happening elsewhere ....

Plus, I think mot Muslims don't know about Saudi's laws. I certainly didn't know until I read it on BR a couple of years back.


Come on. This is just not true. Most muslims are pretty plugged in what happens in Saudi Arabia. EVERY muslim knows mulitple people who have done Hajj & Umra. They know how non-Muslims are treated in KSA.

Indian Muslims don't need to apologize for Saudi Arabia, or any other country's actions, including Pakistan.


None of us here (or in the real world) are foolish enough to ask you to apoligize for some one else's actions. We are asking you to simply apologize for YOUR OWN actions. You can certainly approach the Imaam of your Mosque to initiate a Fatwa on Saudi Arabia. You can add to the movement to make them open up. (not a PR ploy for Kaafir's benifit, but a real dialogue with fellow Muslims.)

If you are indeed so brave as to do the above, you will quickly find yourself shut out and badly pummeled by your fellow Muslims. On the way to the rallies for Muslim rights in Gujrat, they will maul you for bringing up those unpalatable issues. If there is indeed is a debate on a denounciatoin of Saudi Arabia, the Islamic traditions/Quran/Hadiths will be opened up. In no time will you find that Saudi action follows Islam quite well. It is you who is Unislamic. That, ultimately, is the ultimate dilemma and defeat of every well-meaning Muslim.

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Postby derkonig » 05 Feb 2008 12:53

all taqqiya....

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Postby shiv » 05 Feb 2008 17:02

farazhussain wrote:Well, I don't think in this case silence means agreement. Most Muslim of course are too poor, illiterate to do anything about this.


Today's paper says that Sania Mirza has refused to play in Bangalore because all the criticism affects her game.

Now if you check what she has been criticised for it includes wearing skirts that are too short, posing for an ad in an area said to belong to a Mosque.

The Silent Majority Muslims who presumably do not oppose Sania doing these things are giving a "walkover" to the vociferous Muslim minority. Because the silent majority, who, I am assuming, do not support such criticism of Sania remain silent, the vociferous minority have their way.

How can a non Muslim who witnesses all this from the outside, and observes that the fundamentalist minority get away time and again while this "silent majority" remain silent time and again actually be convinced that the silent majority really oppose the vociferous minority?

However I do take your point that there is a silent majority. But it only means that the vociferous minority are holding the silent majority to ransom.

In this sense the Hindu community is completely different from the Muslim community. Every side in the Hindu community is vociferous with their viewpoint, and vociferous in speaking up for people who do not seem to have a voice because they are "poor and illiterate". There are people in the Hindu community who speak of for these silent Muslims. But yet, those silent Muslims will never acknowledge that support in public and speak up about even idiotic issues that are being pushed as an "Islamic cause" - such as pressure on Sania Mirza.

I allege that the poor and illiterate Muslims are also under a degree of threat within Islamic communities in the sense that they either fear (or have been taught to fear) non Muslims. As a result they have to stick with the Muslim crowd even if they don't like something because they fear that rebellion against what the "tide of Muslim opinion" should be seen as according to vociferous minority leaders would lead to their being punished in so many subtle ways.

If true, this indicates that the vociferous minority will plead for helping the poor only so long as the poor are Muslims. They don't bother about poor non Muslims. And poor Muslims can only give proof of their being Islamic as long as they shut up and do not oppose any of the many "Islamic grievances" that the vociferous majority sponsor - such as the Sania Mirza case.

As a forum member Faraz - you don't have to answer this allegation of mine if you do not wish to. I may be forcing you into a corner to make you say things that you do not want to say. But I am laying out the various reasons why the community of Muslims is viewed in a particular way by many Hindus.

The more easygoing Hindus take a light view of this. The less easygoing ones are petty harsh about these seeming inconsistencies in Muslim behavior.

It is all very well to say that Muslims speak with one voice over many issues. But it appears that when there is more than one voice, some of those voices are suppressed by a powerful minority in the Muslim community.

With respect i would like to emphasize the contradiction between what is visible to us and what you say.

a) What is visible to us is ONLY the agitation and complaints of the vociferous Muslim minority about Rushdie, Cartoons, Sania Mirza etc

b) You say that there IS a silent majority. But we dont see them. We don't hear them. How are we to know at all that they exist?

is it any surprise that misconceptions and rumors abound?
Last edited by shiv on 05 Feb 2008 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dilbu » 05 Feb 2008 17:38

Well said Mr.Shiv. This is turning into a good discussion. Dear Mr.Faraz you had promised me an answer but I couldn't find any. I can see that you are busy with many other questions for the time being. Please go ahead with the discussion. Thank you.


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