Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 5

Sanku
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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:04

rkrao wrote:Can you please tell us whether the muslim whom your family member married became Hindu or The Vice Versa??,,,Are they living happily without any threats from Muslims....bcos usually it happens,,,


They turned Hindu; also this is a long time ago now; so the death threats initially; yes they were there; subsided by now.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 12:07

I would like to see Gurudwaras, Mandirs, Viharas, Synagogues in Saudi Arabia. (Whole of Arabia, in fact.).

I should be allowed to take books like Bhagawat Geeta, Guru Granth Sahib, Bible, Torah to Arabia.

Muslims get to build Mosques in Hindu, Christian, Jewish countries. They get to take Quran to these countries as well. Now they should be given reciprocal rights.


Can you please tell me besides KSA which are the countries which don't allow other religions or religious texts?

Do the muslims of the world agree in principle--and I agree that they cannot enforce it---that this should be allowed?


I do. You'll have to ask others to know their opinion.

Is KSA the only example? Aren't there non-Muslims in even Pakistan, BD, Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc?

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Postby rkrao » 07 Feb 2008 12:08

farazhussain wrote:
Dear Faraz
Please tell me
When more than 60 innocent people were burnt alive say by ONLY few people AND Fire Fighters were blocked by MANY people who should be picked and punished.
Dont you think its the whole community involved in making this coward incendent a sucessful one...


What "whole community" ? All Indian Muslims? All Gujarati Muslims?

The guilty are those who were there and who prevented emergency services (which I heard for the first time on this forum).


So want us to pick and punish only those Muslims who did Parliament attack,akshardaam,Varnasi attacks etc etc etc and keep waiting till the next muslim does another attach once he gets interest in getting 72s. and again lose some more valuable kaffirs. Boss in real world it will never happen,,,


Well those who are culprits should be punished. Those who are planning should be apprehended. The Intelligence services are already doing their jobs.

Maybe you can let me know what you think should be done. You clearly suggest that its not just the culprits who are to be punished. So there must be some innocents. Now which innocent Muslims must suffer and how many and how must they be chosen?


boss in a Country with 100+ crore people when few people from one community behaves irresponsibly again and again these kinds of back lashes keeps happening. NOW you should tell me what should be done and how to punish the culprits and suggest the method of finding,bcos you understand them better than what i do,,,until then I will not bother and be happy with what and how my fellow Indians react for that particular situation....

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 12:15

Dear Faraz; there have been riots dime a dozen before the latest Gujrat riots; and there will be later?


Are you asking me? I don't know..

What was so special about Gujrat?

Maybe that its recent.. and I guess the State complicity, and defense of it by many sections..

I think this part has been replied to by others; why alienation of Muslims alone? Why not Hindus? Going by your logic all Hindu's should be alienated by what is happnening in Assam and Kashmir?


Well Muslims feel alienated for they say the Government in both Gujarat and Delhi didn't do enough to protect them or to give justice.

Hindus will feel alienated from India which is 80% Hindu?! Hasn't the army been there in Kashmir and Assam for a long time? Isn't GoI and its agencies doing all it can?


So when Pandits were first driven out; we should have made sure no Muslim lived in India after that?

Is that what you want? Why don't you make your stand clear?


Anything which removes the mask of gold on the face of truth is very good Mr Hussian.


So it was good to kill innocent Muslims in Gujarat?


In this paragraph itself. It is clear to the meanest intelligence that Muslim "alineation" is a self afflicted wound. Due to the desire to be special;


Muslims say they were treated badly during the riots and the Government was bad to them. The local media they said was biased. All this caused alienation.

And I don't have any "desire to be special".

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 12:20

Raking up Gujrat this and Gujrat that should actually be a chapter of shame in Muslim legacy in the country and should show them what their actions or lack thereof cause.


I didn't really rake it up. I mentioned the word Gujarat in talking about how Muslims were joining the mainstream and how what happened there was a backward step leading to ghettoization. For that I was attacked by Sadler. And then it went on.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:21

farazhussain wrote:Is KSA the only example? Aren't there non-Muslims in even Pakistan, BD, Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc?


Maldives says only Muslims can be citizens; Malayisa forces religious books to be left at the airport. People dying are not allowed to be given their religious rites. Iran forces you to cover your head if you are a woman even if not Iranian. Dont think they let books in either.

There are no major non muslim poulation in most ME muslim countaries; and else where the non muslim population is rapidly shrinking.

Pakistan has been destroying temples are a regular clip.

The list goes on and on.

Which world do you live in Mr Hussain?

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Postby dada » 07 Feb 2008 12:23

In Terrorist Attacks like the one at Godhra , plz factor in "hit ratio"
hit ratio = number of people whom you can manage to kill before you are captured / killed yourself in the attempt.

in medieval days, when the only weapons were swords & like , the ratio was very small . maybe only 1 or few .
due to advancing technologies , the hit ratio is increasing at an exponential rate.

so the number of suicide attackers/bombers << nos of people who die in the attack.

hit ratios of various events
=================
attack on benazir at karachi --- around 140:1 !
attack on benazir (dec 2007) ----- around 30:2 or 15:1
assassination of indira gandhi ---- 0.5:2 !
kamikaze attacks (japanese aircrafts on US naval fleets)----- 20:1 ~
low intensity cross border terrorism into kashmir ---- 0.3 ~

maybe a with a nuclear bomb in a suit case, the hit ratio can be
even 1million:1 !

==============
infact the suicide bomber is merely the "face" of the organisation behind him. It is the organisation that should be dealt severely

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:24

farazhussain wrote:
Raking up Gujrat this and Gujrat that should actually be a chapter of shame in Muslim legacy in the country and should show them what their actions or lack thereof cause.


I didn't really rake it up. I mentioned the word Gujarat in talking about how Muslims were joining the mainstream and how what happened there was a backward step leading to ghettoization. For that I was attacked by Sadler. And then it went on.


Exactly why bring up Gujarat when so many other incidents exist.

And as already been posted in detail; the charge of state complicity is a lie.

So why do you harp on Gujarat.

When I asked this before your convient answer is I dont know?

The fact is Gujrat just highlighted what was already happening anyway. Islamisation of IMs through deoband and like.

Given the Arab nature of Islam; Islamisation of any set of Muslims is inevitable; Shiv games this is prior threads.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 12:25

Oh by the way Mr Faraz Hussain what language does you name come from? Not the same Jahil Arabs you despise so much is it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Faraz
Arabic · Male

Elevation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't hate or look down on Arabs.

And I was told my name was a shortened form of the Farsi Sarfaraz.

Ù

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 12:30

boss in a Country with 100+ crore people when few people from one community behaves irresponsibly again and again these kinds of back lashes keeps happening. NOW you should tell me what should be done and how to punish the culprits and suggest the method of finding,bcos you understand them better than what i do,,,until then I will not bother and be happy with what and how my fellow Indians react for that particular situation....


The culprits should be punished according Indian law.

As to how to find them, I don't know. That's the police's/law enforcement's job.

I am sorry but not surprized to note your support for such elements.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:33

farazhussain wrote:
Dear Faraz; there have been riots dime a dozen before the latest Gujrat riots; and there will be later?


Are you asking me? I don't know..



Poor answer; your justification for most things seem to be I dont know.

What was so special about Gujrat?

Maybe that its recent.. and I guess the State complicity, and defense of it by many sections..


No state complicity; and further who defended it? The media put Gujjus to blame.

Well Muslims feel alienated for they say the Government in both Gujarat and Delhi didn't do enough to protect them or to give justice.


On what basis can they feel alienated?

Hindus will feel alienated from India which is 80% Hindu?! Hasn't the army been there in Kashmir and Assam for a long time? Isn't GoI and its agencies doing all it can?


The same can be said for Muslims; GoI does more for Muslims than Hindus.

Why do they still complain? On what right? Because they are 30% now? Will they stop complaining when India is 100% Muslim?

Is the Muslim alienation brought about by not all being Muslims.

So when Pandits were first driven out; we should have made sure no Muslim lived in India after that?

Is that what you want? Why don't you make your stand clear?


Note the question mark; what I said is know as a rehotrical question. I am merely taking your logic and applying it uniformly.


So it was good to kill innocent Muslims in Gujarat?


Why does your heart bleed only for Muslims Mr Faraz? Dont you feel sad for the many innocent Hindus who were also killed in the riots?


Muslims say they were treated badly during the riots and the Government was bad to them. The local media they said was biased. All this caused alienation.


On what basis can they say that they were treated badly? So were Hindu's so? Just because they are Muslims they should be treated special


And I don't have any "desire to be special".


You may claim that; but if you see your posts; they are full of how Muslims expect special treatment on the basis of the fact they are 20%.

You expect Hindu's to be not affected by worse crimes prepetated on them than has ever been on a Muslim in India.

Why?

So the more you try and prove the counter point to how Muslims are same same and all that; you by your own behavior are proving quite the opposite.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:37

farazhussain wrote:
If my name were Aryan and I were still Muslim, the same problems would remain.

A Muslim by any other name...


Mr Hussain; lets not make allegations shall we; I am only trying to dig up the root of your statement

KSA bad Islam good you have said time and again that Arabs are Jaahil. (Although you back track now)

When to all world expect those in self denial

KSA is Islam first and foremost and all others are pretenders.

Also does not liking elements of Islam mean not liking a muslim automatically? Why is this ingrained in your mind.

And note its not that I claim that Faraz is Arabic; its on the web. Please look it up yourself.

Your claims of "it is not so" sound pathetic when we see numerous examples contradicting each and every of them around us all the while.
Last edited by Sanku on 07 Feb 2008 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 12:39

Maldives says only Muslims can be citizens; Malayisa forces religious books to be left at the airport. People dying are not allowed to be given their religious rites. Iran forces you to cover your head if you are a woman even if not Iranian. Dont think they let books in either.

There are no major non muslim poulation in most ME muslim countaries; and else where the non muslim population is rapidly shrinking.

Pakistan has been destroying temples are a regular clip.

The list goes on and on.

Which world do you live in Mr Hussain?


If you want to, you can find such examples about others too.

My question is this: Have you met Pakistanis, Malaysian, Iranians and asked them about all this? What is their opinion of this?

Are they all anti-Hindu, anti-Christian, etc?

Plus, again, am I responsible for KSA and all these other countries?

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Postby archan » 07 Feb 2008 12:44

I do not mean to attack you or anyone else but this is what I get from the ongoing discussion on Gujarat.
1) it was a step backwards for the Muslim integration into the mainstream India. BUT it was also a step backward for the Hindu population in the acceptance of Muslims as trusted partners in developing India.

2) I do not hear Hindus complain or write sentimental articles on Gujarat massacre as much as I see articles by the Muslims. They seem to claim that incident as one that was a gross injustice done by Hindus onto them without ever mentioning the fact that it was the Muslim community that started it all. Now they want to use it as an excuse for their not fully being a part of mainstream. They seem to be claiming moral high ground because they were the ones who suffered more in that inhumane incident. This is what I, and many others here do not understand.

3) Why don't the Muslims move on from that incident? BOTH parties were at fault, weren't they? so why the purported moral high ground? I still cannot get over that comment in that article by that lady "In case there is a riot..." She already assumed that the postal worker that asked her if she was Muslim is a mobster and then she goes on to write about it shamelessly. It only distances me, as an Indian from her. I'm not even religious enough to claim myself to be a Hindu.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:45

farazhussain wrote:My question is this: Have you met Pakistanis, Malaysian, Iranians and asked them about all this? What is their opinion of this?

Are they all anti-Hindu, anti-Christian, etc?



The easy defense of Germans when blamed for murdering Jews. :D


Plus, again, am I responsible for KSA and all these other countries?


No you brought that up if you see; we are merely discussing Islam and the policies followed by Islamic govt. and the correlation of Islam and KSA etc.

Why does that make you so queasy?

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 12:52

Sanku wrote:Poor answer; your justification for most things seem to be I dont know.


Well in case you know the answer why don't you provide it. Just playing games is it?

Sanku wrote:
What was so special about Gujrat?

Maybe that its recent.. and I guess the State complicity, and defense of it by many sections..


No state complicity; and further who defended it? The media put Gujjus to blame.


You got to be kidding to say that. Court after court have found Gujarat goverment failing to do its job.

Well Muslims feel alienated for they say the Government in both Gujarat and Delhi didn't do enough to protect them or to give justice.


Why do they still complain? On what right? Because they are 30% now? Will they stop complaining when India is 100% Muslim? Is the Muslim alienation brought about by not all being Muslims.


Attacks on basis of religion are entirely uncalled for.

Why does your heart bleed only for Muslims Mr Faraz? Dont you feel sad for the many innocent Hindus who were also killed in the riots?


Again uncalled for personal attack based on religion. Example all north Indians are being targetted in Mumbai by MNS. Wouldn't north indian's living in Mumbai feel bad for fellow north indias? If they feel bad does that automatically mean they are anti-south india?

On what basis can they say that they were treated badly? So were Hindu's so? Just because they are Muslims they should be treated special


He just feels bad that people who are like him were treated badly. Why you jumping on him?

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 12:54

archan wrote:I do not mean to attack you or anyone else but this is what I get from the ongoing discussion on Gujarat.
.....

I'm not even religious enough to claim myself to be a Hindu.


Echo your sentiments totally; but Mr Hussain has already let it slip; its because Muslims are 30%....

The corralary is obvious.

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 12:55

Sanku wrote:The easy defense of Germans when blamed for murdering Jews. :D


No it isn't. Nor were all Germans held responsible for genocide of Jews.
Last edited by alokgupt on 07 Feb 2008 14:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JE Menon » 07 Feb 2008 13:01

Folks, simmer down... Faraz is doing his best. He does not know the answers to all your questions... but even his answers may dry up because of the way posts are being made... He is just an Indian, who is Muslim, posting on this forum. He does not represent all Muslims, nor does he claim to... Cut down on the personalised stuff...

He is not personally responsible for KSA and all the rest of it, and maybe he does not even know the answrs... Imagine yourselves going to a forum dominated by Indian Muslims and being bombarded with a hundred questions, assumptions, claims etc... to which you may not know the answer. At the very least, if you choose to stay there, the dialogue must be kept civil.

In short, he is clearly trying and trying hard... Let him find his forum legs first...

R_Kumar, another post like that will result in a ban. I have deleted it.
Last edited by JE Menon on 07 Feb 2008 13:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 13:02

alokgupt wrote:
Sanku wrote:The easy defense of Germans when blamed for murdering Jews. :D


No it isn't. Nor were all Germans held responsible for genocide of Jews. It is disappointing to see such things on BR.


How do you mean responsible? If in terms of actually assisting? Or being a silent spectator and supporter.

Have you seen the angst in Germany when the holocaust is mentioned? ave you seen their attempts at raising memeorials to remind themselves?

And boss if you find it disappointing; you dont look at BRF enough; go to the ME thread and educate yourself on which BRFite is saying what on the topic.

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 13:04

Sanku wrote:
farazhussain wrote:
Dear Faraz; there have been riots dime a dozen before the latest Gujrat riots; and there will be later?


Are you asking me? I don't know..



Poor answer; your justification for most things seem to be I dont know.


You asked me if there is going to be another riot ... how do I know? I don't know.

And justification? What justification did I give and for what?


No state complicity; and further who defended it? The media put Gujjus to blame.


IMO there was State complicity. And many section of media did that. Many on rediff.com etc.

Why do they still complain? On what right? Because they are 30% now? Will they stop complaining when India is 100% Muslim?


What 30%? Muslims like others are going on with their lives. There are some genuine problems and security is one of them,.


Why does your heart bleed only for Muslims Mr Faraz? Dont you feel sad for the many innocent Hindus who were also killed in the riots?


I am sad for all- Hindus and Muslims.

On what basis can they say that they were treated badly? So were Hindu's so? Just because they are Muslims they should be treated special


Treated badly since the Government didn't protect them when it could have. I am not asking for any special treatment.

You may claim that; but if you see your posts; they are full of how Muslims expect special treatment on the basis of the fact they are 20%.


What 20%? When did I say that?

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 13:09

Alok I am ignoring your meaningless drivel on this thread. As usual you take a statement twist it bizzarely and say that I meant something else.

The game of have you stopped beating your wife is not one I am falling for.

The only lie I wish to expose is -- you said Court after court blamed Guj govt for not doing its job.

Can you list which courts and what exactly did they say?

I am tired of lies on various threads.

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 13:10

Sanku wrote:
alokgupt wrote:
Sanku wrote:The easy defense of Germans when blamed for murdering Jews. :D


No it isn't. Nor were all Germans held responsible for genocide of Jews. It is disappointing to see such things on BR.


How do you mean responsible? If in terms of actually assisting? Or being a silent spectator and supporter.

Have you seen the angst in Germany when the holocaust is mentioned? ave you seen their attempts at raising memeorials to remind themselves?

And boss if you find it disappointing; you dont look at BRF enough; go to the ME thread and educate yourself on which BRFite is saying what on the topic.


Sanku things break down very quickly once you start generalizing crimes of few to everyone. So while one doesn't need to mince words when it comes to condemning or exposing radical islamic idealogy. It is unfair and unhuman to justify murder because of it.

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Postby vina » 07 Feb 2008 13:11

farazhussain wrote:Can you please tell me besides KSA which are the countries which don't allow other religions or religious texts?


To the best of my knowledge, all the muslim countries in the Gulf including "liberal" ones like those that make up the UAE. (Bahrain (I think) has a temple , as an exception).

Raju

Postby Raju » 07 Feb 2008 13:13

archan wrote:3) Why don't the Muslims move on from that incident? BOTH parties were at fault, weren't they? so why the purported moral high ground? I still cannot get over that comment in that article by that lady "In case there is a riot..." She already assumed that the postal worker that asked her if she was Muslim is a mobster and then she goes on to write about it shamelessly. It only distances me, as an Indian from her. I'm not even religious enough to claim myself to be a Hindu.


this is the sociological aspect of minority complex. The reason why Indian societies are studied so closely in western universities is to conduct such sociological warfare wherein the aim is to make a mental divide in society that is clean and complete. If you want to divide two communities and cause strife then there must be clear knowledge on when to strike for the divide to be complete (there is a 'sociological tipping point' for communisties where they can go either way and then there is a 'point of no hope', doesn't anyone see sometimes from the way faraz comments that he is talking from a 'point of no hope' as if he is resigned to be perceived negatively by others esp hindus because of his muslim status). And which are the apppropriate tools to be used. It is indeed sad to see that as far as that muslim lady at post-office is concerned her mental alienation from majority is complete but she is only partly to blame for it.

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Postby JE Menon » 07 Feb 2008 13:14

I believe Oman has one, and Qatar has given permission for one... Not absolutely sure, but things are slowly moving...very slowly, but they are moving...

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Postby farazhussain » 07 Feb 2008 13:14

Vina:

I know there churches, temples in UAE. There is church in Qatar. There are Hindu temples in Oman too.

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 13:16

Sanku wrote: The only lie I wish to expose is -- you said Court after court blamed Guj govt for not doing its job. Can you list which courts and what exactly did they say?


To begin with SC moved number of cases of Gujarat riot to Maharashtra. I will find more facts for you. But as usual I have to provide you facts for something very obvious.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 13:17

farazhussain wrote:You asked me if there is going to be another riot ... how do I know? I don't know.


No I asked you there have been many riots before; and certainly you say that Muslims expect more since thats why they go into ghettos.

Question is why Guj is special anyway thats being discussed below.



IMO there was State complicity. And many section of media did that. Many on rediff.com etc.


Your opinion is not the truth; and english Media is bika hua. The local media does not agree. But then you say you dont agree with the media

Why do they still complain? On what right? Because they are 30% now? Will they stop complaining when India is 100% Muslim?


What 30%? Muslims like others are going on with their lives. There are some genuine problems and security is one of them,.


You change tracks so much that it is difficult to talk to you. The question is why can Muslims feel special when the people are reciving end are hindus.


I am sad for all- Hindus and Muslims.


But you dont say that till pressed. Till then only the Muslims how died int Gujarat.

Treated badly since the Government didn't protect them when it could have. I am not asking for any special treatment.


So the hindu's can claim. What is the basis for that claim?

What 20%? When did I say that?


You said Muslims feel more afraid compared to Hindu's since Muslims are only 20%.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 13:25

alokgupt wrote:
Sanku wrote: The only lie I wish to expose is -- you said Court after court blamed Guj govt for not doing its job. Can you list which courts and what exactly did they say?


To begin with SC moved number of cases of Gujarat riot to Maharashtra. I will find more facts for you. But as usual I have to provide you facts for something very obvious.


Some cases were moved. Please find how many cases have been moved out of total of how many.

In any case moving cases is not the same as saying there was state complicity during riots.

You have to do the work because you are the one making inane posts which are obvious to only one person.

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 13:34

Well let us acknowledge the fact that most muslim majority countries aren't secular. The religious minorities have a very difficult life there. Much more difficult than it can ever be in India or other secular societies. Therefore there is definitely a problem at least with the way islamic religious idealogy is interpreted as it isn't tolerant enough and it doesn't for one propagate respect for all humans (as against just respect for muslim). So I will say it is important to discuss the idealogy and lay blame on idealogy based on facts. But the worst thing we can do is to generalize it to all indian muslims. If we want to win this battle against terrorism we need to know that the only way to win it is 1) never to make it terribly personal to every muslim (every innocent muslim must be feel safe and he should feel personally unaffected in day to day life) 2) let govt deal those who practise or preach terrorism with iron hand - no mercy 3) use your vote to make darn sure the govt doesn't waffle on dealing with terrorism.

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Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2008 13:37

surinder wrote:
I am sorry, this sounds like we have to walk on egg shells to get the Indian Muslims to participate here. Why should we do it? This is no different than what we see in what we disparagingly call Pseudo-seculars or DDM. Why should we want to treat Muslims differently? Why should we have to be careful and treat them with kids gloves?


Two reasons from my viewpoint

1) At least a few forum members want that and my personal take on the issue becomes immaterial in that sense

2) More important than that, I am gradually veering around to the conclusion that there are nuances in what Indian Muslims say that are not picked up, or picked up in a sense different from what may have been intended. So as I believe it is important just to listen for a bit.

I will try and point out these nuances as and when I see them - I think I have spotted just such a nuance in one of the posts.

Ultimately it may be instructive to put up with a little takleef and walk on those eggshells. The new vistas that opens up can be egg-citing, if nothing else.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Feb 2008 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vina » 07 Feb 2008 13:42

farazhussain wrote:Vina:

I know there churches, temples in UAE. There is church in Qatar. There are Hindu temples in Oman too.


Yeah.. I know that UAE or rather one particular state within UAE has it. Christian churches , even synagogues I can understand, because they are "religions of the book" and pre-existing religions in that region. But that does not imply tolerance or genuine religious freedom in anysense of the word..

Stuff like this picture below says a lot about it. The "exclusivist" mindset that prevailed in many schools of islam (deoband etc) and the islamist nature of many of the sultanates and empires in medieval India reflected that as well.. And I dare say, that was much of the motivation of the "Pakistan --lets face it.. exclusively "Pure" muslim state for Indian subcontinent muslims" came from there as well.. (forgeting about the inconveinent fact of millions of "non muslims" /aborigines in the areas that formed Pakistan and Bangladesh)

Image

Anyways.. I do fully agree with this article.. esp the point about Pope in Mecca..

[quote]The New York Times
November 11, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Democracy’s Root: Diversity
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Last Tuesday, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia met Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican — the first audience ever by the head of the Catholic Church with a Saudi monarch. The Saudi king gave the pope two gifts: a golden sword studded with jewels, and a gold and silver statue depicting a palm tree and a man riding a camel.

The BBC reported that the pope “admired the statue but merely touched the sword.â€

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 13:50

surinder wrote:I am sorry, this sounds like we have to walk on egg shells to get the Indian Muslims to participate here. Why should we do it? This is no different than what we see in what we disparagingly call Pseudo-seculars or DDM. Why should we want to treat Muslims differently? Why should we have to be careful and treat them with kids gloves?



Well I for one is not asking for anybody walking on egg shells. But I hope we don't have to become monsters. We should always uphold basic human rights. We should keep the decency. More specifically:

1) Let us not blame anyone personally for deeds of others (anything like tell your brothers). But it is ok to hold person accountable for his ridiculous thoughts. Basically one person at a time.
2) Let us not defend any killing of innocent.
3) Instead let us fight the battle of ideas with the murderous radical islamic idealogy.

I know the big question of riots always gets the emotions going. Do I agree with pseudo seculars likes of Barkha Dutt? No I don't. But I don't agree with riots and killings as well. But don't you think Gujarat riots happened because at the core people had little confidence that they will get justice. Because people are regularly faced with injustice and had little hope for justice they did whatever they could in the fit. But why the hell are terrorists and murders not being brought to justice? Why does India not go about hiring hit man to kill Dawood and his gang in Pakistan? So there is a better way to deal with it. Of course with UPA and likes of kangress in power it is not going to happen. But do remember there is a better way to get justice.
Last edited by alokgupt on 07 Feb 2008 14:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 13:57

alokgupt wrote: But do remember there is a better way to get justice.


No one disagrees with anything in your post alok; as far as I can see; at least I don't.

I just want to add one thing to what you said; the question is not of UPA govt. or one instance. That would be simple. The question is why did the system evolve to be what it is. What are root fundamental reasons.

Putting skin cream to treat skin cancer wont help. And the cure cant start unless we accept that those spots are not infection but cancer.

Something to think about.

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 14:04

Sanku wrote:Putting skin cream to treat skin cancer wont help. And the cure cant start unless we accept that those spots are not infection but cancer.


So let us call it cancer. The cancer is radical islamic idealogy.

But how does personal name calling for first muslim we meet help. Let us remember that there are people like APJ who did more for India than most of us will ever accomplish. Their faith did not come in the way of them helping India. Therefore we have to word it right. The definition has to be tight enough to exclude all terrorists and pakistanis but broad enough to include all Indians.

So let us rant all day about idealogy. But never name call all indian muslims.
Last edited by alokgupt on 07 Feb 2008 14:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 14:18

alokgupt wrote:
But how does personal name calling for first muslim we meet help.


It does not and hence no one is calling anyone names.

Let us remember that there are people like APJ who did more for India than most of us will ever accomplish. Their faith did not come in the way of them helping India.


What was APJs faith? He was a muslim as per religion; but I think his faith was first and foremost India. A person can be born into Muslim religion and yet have a different faith is it not?

Therefore we have to word it right.


Isnt that parsing words :rotfl:
:D -- jokes apart

Yes I agree.

The cancer isn't islam.


That should be open to debate should it not be? Lets say I dont agree; lets say I think Islam == Islamism.

What then; should I be shot or should the above be discussed. And just in case it escaped your notice. A lot of discussion in these threads has been around the same.

remind everyone including muslims is that radical definition is not the only definition.


Yes but if it seen on ground that it indeed is the case that Muslims at large will chose the radical interpreation should we not remind ourselves of that too?

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Postby SSridhar » 07 Feb 2008 14:26

vina wrote:Stuff like this picture below says a lot about it.


Vina, I think non-Muslims do not mind taking a round about road thro Makkah to reach the Sarawat mountains. The rule was probably required when the Prophet (SAW) did not want the Pagans to sneak in and cause mayhem. However, there are cases even today when people have genuinely missed that exit and then been caught and sentenced to death. Yes, Koran says that the punishment for trespassing into Makkah or Madinah is death only. I have spoken to Muslims from different countries and not one of them wanted to relax such a ban or the punishment to that.

There are so many instances of forcing the Islamic religious beliefs on the dhimmis in all the Gulf countries. Some countries are slightly more liberal than the others and KSA is the worst. You ask any Muslim why KSA is so bad and the stock answer is that the entire KSA is holy land for Muslims and the laws regarding non-Muslims are therefore strict.

BTW, a church here or a Krishna temple there does not mean that there is religious freedom to the extent various practitioners of different faiths are allowed in India.

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Postby alokgupt » 07 Feb 2008 14:31

Sanku wrote:What was APJs faith? He was a muslim as per religion; but I think his faith was first and foremost India. A person can be born into Muslim religion and yet have a different faith is it not?


APJ was the true muslim. I have no reason to doubt his faith one bit. I hardly think the terrorists or terrorist supporter can ever be called muslims. See we cause problems for ourselves when we let this idea gain ground that somehow terrorists are true muslims.
Isnt that parsing words :rotfl:
:D -- jokes apart


It exactly is. But it is absolutely required. See you cannot call someone's mother names and then ask them to join you in bigger cause. It doesn't work. Here there are lot of sensitivies on both sides. We need to parse words on this one.

That should be open to debate should it not be? Lets say I dont agree; lets say I think Islam == Islamism.


Well it can be open for discussion but I am just hoping someone keeps track of other side of this as well i.e. muslims (minority or majority doesn't matter) who defy the classic defintion. You have a higher chance of success convincing people to become moderate than convincing them to change their religion.

Yes but if it seen on ground that it indeed is the case that Muslims at large will chose the radical interpreation should we not remind ourselves of that too?


Absolutely. We shouldn't be afraid to say that it has become a predominant version today.

But one thing above all no matter if we follow anything above or not:

Nothing we say should justify any serious human rights abuses for any innocent. Doesn't mean we need to grant any right to guilty like mohhamed sohabuddin. The terrorists can be shot.
Last edited by alokgupt on 07 Feb 2008 14:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sanku » 07 Feb 2008 14:39

alokgupt wrote: The word islam is so sacred to people that let us use another word to blame. How about radical islamic idealogy?


Nothing is sacred if you want to get to truth; and I will not drag APJ into this but having some idea of what he is I dont think you know what you are talking of. Anyway lets not drag him here. Its not him who is being discussed.

You have a higher chance of success convincing people to become moderate than convincing them to change their religion.


Well I wonder and in any case what you are saying is that okay I accept that Islam is bad; but cant get them to change their religion what next?

I dont know if people have graduated to discussing that yet.

Absolutely. We shouldn't be afraid to say that it has become a predominant version today. But never never say everyone because you don't know what everyone is.


Fair enough but every one is immaterial in this scenario; in macro scopic picture it is the big picture we are talking of.

Psycho-history so to say.


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