Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 6

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Keshav
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Post by Keshav »

indygill wrote:Steven Vikash Chand, a 25-year-old restaurant worker from Toronto is a convert to Islam. He was one of 17 suspects in the case had plotted to take over media outlets such as the Canadian Broadcasting Corp.
You don't think he might be Christian?
Gus
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Post by Gus »

State terrorism - says Taslima.

url
[quote]Before leaving India on Tuesday, exiled Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasrin said the treatment meted out to her by the Government of India was nothing less than “cold-blooded state terrorism to drive her out of the country.

Taslima said she is planning a lecture tour where she would speak about her days inside a room with no view and also how she was “treated like an animalâ€
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Post by Tilak »

Friends stand by Taslima

Statesman News Service
[quote]KOLKATA/NEW DELHI, March 18: Taslima Nasreen's friends resent what they call a violation of her human rights. They say it is “entirely justifiedâ€
Keshav
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Post by Keshav »

Gus wrote: Talking about her dilemma and frustrations, she said she would very soon write in international dailies on how a handful of hooligans made the Centre to toe its line and punish an author. The political parties of India are so secular that they were scared to defend a person who is anti-Islam, she said.
So, does this mean India is too Islamic or too Hindu for her tastes?
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Post by sivab »

Keshav wrote: So, does this mean India is too Islamic or too Hindu for her tastes?

:shock:

She is living through hell. The least you can do is stop mocking at her.
shiv
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Post by shiv »

Keshav wrote:
Gus wrote: Talking about her dilemma and frustrations, she said she would very soon write in international dailies on how a handful of hooligans made the Centre to toe its line and punish an author. The political parties of India are so secular that they were scared to defend a person who is anti-Islam, she said.
So, does this mean India is too Islamic or too Hindu for her tastes?
India speaks of freedom, but then bows to the restriction of speech in Islam for fear of disruption.

India is a state that can always be blackmailed because Indians will bend principles in favor of not standing up and fighting for some principles.

Several consequences emerge from the Indian political stand.

Article 25 of the Indian constitution provides the right to practice and propagate any religion.

However I am not at all certain what the stand of the Indian constitution is on atheism. Surely a person should have freedom to not believe in god and not be forced to follow absurd rules allegedly made up by some god.

If the majority say that god exists, India chooses to suppress the minority who so not believe. The rules say that no one should speak or write anything that upsets any religion. But when religion itself upsets the sentiment of the atheist, does the latter have a choice?

Despite its pretence of secularism, religion has too firm a grip on India, and the religion that makes the most noise and causes the greatest disruption gets the greatest number of concessions from India.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Mar 2008 07:40, edited 1 time in total.
Rahul M
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Post by Rahul M »

Shiv, this post is directed specifically to You.

Before starting my points I would like to confess that I haven't been able to follow the TIE thread since the third avatar.

But whatever I had gathered was enough to convince me that it was my sacred duty to
"convert" as many people as I could.

By conversion I mean :

i> brushing up their sense of history to focus on how and why our established curriculum is biased . Knocking down AIT forms a large part of the matter ,
as also dissolving the falsehood that national Identity of India was a product of british rule.
And lastly the truth about the muslim rule in India.

ii> point out to them the hypocrisy of the psec crowds esp the communists both wrt religious tolerence/secularism and national interest. (this is especially important in Bengal)

iii> point out the hypocrisy of the media.


I'm happy to say that in a small circle of friends I have been at least able to do two things, viz

a) really improve their understanding of why and how of India's history. this to the extent that many have really rejected the deeply ingrained ideas of AIT and also have discovered a new found appreciation of India's heritage.

b) they are slowly understanding how the psec crowd is blatanly hypocritical in more ways than one and how they are detrimental to the survival of our way of life in the long run.

The persons I've described constitute well read educated chaps almost all with varying degrees of left leanings. all of them could be said to belong to the group of intellectuals.


In all of this, I have a few observations which I would like to share with fellow BRFites and ask their opinion on the same.

i) this must be obvious but it is easier to convert younger even more diehard commies than it is to do the same to older comparatively softer liberals. In the end I've decided that it is best to ignore the older gen and concentrate on the youth.
I feel that the old guard will fade in obscurity if this conversion is successful enough.
what is BRF's POV ??

ii) dhimmitude is much less deeply ingrained than I expected. the dhimmitude that we see nowadays is more a carefully cultivated product of the educated youth than a part and parcel of
society. among the working masses there is virtually NO dhimmitude. the educated youth usually develops these traits at colleges/universities unless of course they have a
'Commissar in the family' !

I would give just anecdotal evidence to support my view. One of the persons of this group, belongs to most diehard commie background possible. Both his parents were fervent marxists
(I mean C P I (M) supporters) From his childhood he grew up on a diet of marx and engels etc. He applied for membership of the party first thing upon reaching adulthood. during his college and university days he was a very dedicated worker for the party student wing.

Now, in his college, which is probably the most famous gen college in kolkata, this party's student wing almost never managed to capture the student body in the elections. (still can't) one of the very few times when it actually did was during this guy's tenure and he was instrumental in that victory and managed to get one of the top two posts of the student body.

he also happens to be an excellent student with a very sharp mind.

when I applied the above rituals to the said person I was surprised to find that there was very low resistance to reformulation/conversion. which was something I found in almost everybody else, these ideas are already forming in the minds of most but they are afraid to speak their mind fearing censure from their 'liberal' friends. all it takes is to present the irrefutable facts in a coherent fashion.

more on this later.
Last edited by Rahul M on 19 Mar 2008 08:27, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Post by shiv »

Rahul M wrote:Shiv, this post is directed specifically to You.

Before starting my points I would like to confess that I haven't been able to follow the TIE thread since the third avatar.
Great post Rahul M

I am not surprised that you have not followed what has happened on this series of threads which are more of a meander than a bullet train on a track from X to Y.

I tend to read piskolgical attitudes of individuals and groups and figured that the question s "tackling extremism" was something nobody disagrees with in principle, but defining where extremism exists becomes a problem because of various factors - including the fact that we are inside the society that we want to mould. The only example I can think to illustrate this is to ask a fish that has never left the ocean and cannot leave the ocean to rise above the ocean and draw a map of that ocean. It has to stop being a fish to do that.

Extremism means various things to various people - and when the people themselves are confused about their own identity and status answers cannot come without dissecting every strand and every nuance to test for validity in every instance.

Sorry I can't make it any clearer than this. But I think you are on the right track. Our Macaulayite education insidiously and subliminally converts our minds into imagining that history began 2008 years ago. This is the first hurdle to cross. The fish that sits deep inside the Pacific ocean can hardly get an idea of the shape of the Indian ocean. Only the fish that can rise above and beyond all oceans can see them and define their shape. History did not begin 2008 years ago and yo cannot learn history from the viewpoint of a person who starts writing history beginning 2008 years ago. You have to go to an earlier era and see the world from an earlier era and then you can also see what the world looked like 2008 years ago, and you can also see what makes the history writer from 1 AD to see the world the way he sees it.
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Islam 101

Post by GuruNandan »

Years ago Shri Sita Ram Goel wrote in the introduction to his book 'Jesus Christ - An Artifice for Aggression'
I have wondered over the years why we Hindus have remained preoccupied with the behaviour patterns of Muslims and Christians and not with the belief systems which create those behaviour patterns. We object to Christian missions, but refuse to discuss Christianity and its God, Jesus. We object to Islamic terrorism, but refuse to have a look at Islam and its prophet, Muhammed. I see no sense or logic in this Hindu habit.

In fact, we go a step further. We appeal to the Christian missionaries in the name of Jesus, and ask them not to do what they have been doing. We appeal to the Muslims in the name of Muhammad, and ask them to stop doing what they have been doing. In the process, we have invented a "real" Jesus and a "true" Christianity. We have also invented a "real" Muhammad and a "true" Islam. The missionary and the mullah smiles at our inventions but goes ahead and makes good use of our soft headedness. That is why we have failed to solve the "communal problem" all these years. We have never tried to find out why our own people, which both Christians and Muslims are, should become alienated from us when they pass under the spell of Christianity and Islam.
The URL below gives a bried overview of Islam and contents of the Quran. Makes for a good understanding of Islam.

http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2008/03 ... -know.html
The Final Ayats on Jihad

In 630 AD the Prophet attacked Mecca with a huge army and conquered it. He now became the Master of entire Arabia. Now the doctrine of Jihad has become even more cold-blooded. We see this is surahs five and nine which have been revealed a little before his death and hence are considered final and decisive. We shall see a few sample ayats from these surahs on various relevant topics

Against idolaters

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption, making mischief in the land [those who refuse to surrender to Islam] is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. That is their degradation and disgrace in this world. And a great torment of an awful doom awaits them in the hereafter. Except for those who repent (and become Muslims) before you overpower them and they fall into your control.â€
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Post by derkonig »

Oh..
With incidents like this does MMS, the raging insomniac, get to sleep ever?
clicky
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Post by Gerard »

Deoband's hour to deliver

By M Burhanuddin Qasm

The Daily Pioneer
http://www.dailypioneer.com
2008/03/22
posted in full since site does not archive

The Deoband Declaration of February 25 may not be enough, or has come too late. But now that it has happened, it must be taken forward

Darul Uloom of Deoband is the second most important institute of Islamic learning in the world after the Al Azhar University of Cairo. On February 25, it held an "All India Terrorism Conference" at its home base, which was attended by over 10,000 Islamic clerics, scholars, muftis and teachers drawn from madrasas owing allegiance not only to the Deobandi, but also Bareilvi and Shia schools of Islamic thought. The conference issued a statement which said:

"The Conference expresses its deep concern and agony (over) the alarming global and national conditions (presently prevailing in the world), in which most of the nations are adopting an attitude against their citizens - especially the Muslims - that cannot be justified in any way, in order to appease the tyrant and colonial master of the West. It is a matter of (even) greater concern that the internal and external policies of our country are becoming heavily influenced by these forces. Their aggression, barbarism and state-sponsored terrorism - not only in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, but also in Bosnia and various South American countries - have surpassed all records known to human history. Our great nation, (on the other hand), has always been known for impartiality and (for) its moral and spiritual values."

"Now the situation has worsened (to such an extent) that every Indian Muslim - especially those associated with madrasas, who are innocent with good record of character - are always gripped by the fear that they might be trapped by the administrative machinery anytime. Today countless innocent Muslims are spending their lives behind bars, and are forced to bear many intolerable tortures. (At the same time), those spreading terror, attacking police stations, killing police (officers) in broad daylight and (carrying) illegal arms are roaming about freely, while the Government takes no effective and preventive steps to check their acts of terrorism and violence."

"This (discriminatory) attitude has put a big question mark on the secular character of the Govern-ment, posing a great threat to the country. The All-India Anti-Terrorism Conference strongly condemns this attitude, expresses its deep concern (over) this partiality of the Government officials, and declares its continuous joint struggle for (rule) of law, justice and (secularism)."

Following the declaration, some hardcore BJP sevaks spoke about organising a debate on mutual understanding among Hindus and Muslims in India. It is also appreciable that national and international media both print and electronic are taking the 'Deoband Declaration' with the same letter and spirit that the issue actually deserved.

The discussions on various web sites and TV talks where a few participants have understandably put their views across honestly, is encouraging. Some of the arguments centred on the suggestion that Darul Uloom should do more for countering terrorism. Many also wondered why Deoband was organising the conference after the lapse of so much time. This point was reiterated ad nauseum by some newspapers and web blogs subsequently gave them additional mileage. The explanation was articulated well enough in substantial detail by speaker after speaker. It was also enshrined in the 'Deoband Declaration', where this writer was present as participant as well as a member of the committee that drafted the declaration.

What is disturbing the common, peace-loving Muslims of India is why the mainstream media, or for that matter socio-political analysts in general, are not asking Right-wing Hindu political parties - the Shiv Sena and the BJP - and extremist organisations to introspect about their role in national integration and preserving communal harmony in India. Why is a debate is not being conducted to precisely define terrorism? If the activities of ULFA, Maoists and LTTE come under the universal definition of terrorism, then why the word 'Muslim' is prefixed while describing some terrorists and others are just known by the organisations they belong to?

The police have a role to play in the evolution of a credible and peaceful society. Unfortunately, in India, the police is promoting a gulf between communities. On a Mumbai flyover, a school boy was caught for rough driving. The police officer asked for his driving licence. When the boy produced it, the policeman pounced on him because the boy turned out to be a Muslim. "Kidar ko bomb phorna hain" (where are you going to drop the bomb?), he wanted to know. When the boy protested, the policeman said: "Sale pher itna speed se kyon bhaga raha hain?" (then why are you driving this fast?)

We all must abide by the law and raise a legitimate demand that our policing should be transparent. Criminals must be punished, irrespective of the religion, political party or organisation he may belong to. But, the police also has the duty to protect all innocent people from humiliation. This is the crux of the message contained in the Deoband Declaration. It is the execution of justice in a fair manner that makes people repose their faith on the Constitution of a country. The trust thus established between the citizen and the state leads to love and a sense of belonging towards the nation. Patriots cannot be created. Patriotism is a natural thing which is engendered by a sense of belonging to the system. This has to come from within, argued the scholars who were present at the Deoband conference.

Maulana Arshad Madni, the Dean of Darul Uloom Deoband, went a bit further and demanded that the Government of India establish visible and equal justice for all. He said: "Either you declare India a Hindu rashtra or give all citizens equal justice." This touched a chord in every Muslim heart because the injustice meted out to the community has crossed all limits.

Today, it is time Hindus and Muslims struck unity to instill a spirit of trust in repressed communities. This must start with a thorough investigation into the problem of justice denial, which must be free of bias and one-sided notions. Often, it happens that real culprits are left free to plough the streets, while innocent people are thrown behind bars. This fuels the marginalisation of communities and leads some people to the embrace of terrorists.

The theme of the Deoband conference is 'terrorism' is deplorable, unacceptable in any form whatsoever, anywhere in the world; and it belongs to no religion. Terrorism is no body's monopoly - Mahatma Gandhi, two Indian Prime Ministers, Sri Lankan President, two US Presidents were assassinated by terrorists, not Muslims, thus the idea 'every Muslims may not be terrorist but every terrorist is a Muslim' is sic and factually wrong.

The writer is Editor of Eastern Crescent, a Deoband alumnus and director of Mumbai-based Markazul Ma'arif Education and Research Centre
Last edited by Gerard on 22 Mar 2008 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gerard »

Praiseworthy, but it comes with a catch

By Priyadarsi Dutta

The Daily Pioneer
http://www.dailypioneer.com
2008/03/22
posted in full since site does not archive

The Deoband Declaration glosses over several grey areas in the Islam-world civilisation interface. It is here that the old tendency of condoning terrorism seems to be given a new lease of life

Darul Uloom periodically hogs headlines for its weird fatwas, like in the Imrana case. Another, less publicised instance was available from its website. Somebody posted a query: "Previously in my ignorance I had photographs taken of myself. Some of these are in my possession while some are in the possession of others. What should I do with those photographs?" Prompt came the fatwa: "Burn the photographs that you have in your possession. Also acquire those photographs which are in the possession of others and burn them. If they refuse to give it to you, buy it from them and burn them." It is reasonable to doubt whether such a philosophy can bring Muslims in line with the universal ethos.

It doesn't delight the ulema to learn that the world is prying into the theological underpinnings of Islam after 9/11. A palpable grey zone of concern between Islam and rest of humanity is what is called terrorism. Thanks to satellite television, it can be watched from every bedroom, and anti-jihadis websites are rattling out verses previously unknown to the average non-Muslim that that gives the impression that somehow the Holy Quran condones terrorism. Muslim society has an image of being cocooned in Quranic teaching. And religious doctors - who control the mind of the 'believers' - were earlier not seen denouncing terrorism. Many interpreted this as tacit support to mujahideen, or jihadis - qitl fee saif fee sybil Allah (Jihad- killing in Path of Allah).

Darul Uloom, Deoband recently addressed this area of concern by hosting an anti-terrorism conference of Islamic scholars. Some 4,000 (alternate versions say up to 10,000) delegates from madrasas and different Muslim institutions ranging from Nadwatul Ulema, Lucknow to Chistis of Ajmer Sharif, participated. The resolution adopted on February 25 condemned "mischief, rioting and murder as among (the) severest of sins and crimes". It denounced all kinds of violence and terrorism indulged in the name of Islam.

The Deoband Declaration, the fact remains, is the first in the sub-continent. It comes in the footsteps of the Makkah (Mecca) Declaration of the third Organisation of Islamic Countries' extraordinary Summit held on December 7-8, 2005. At Makkah, heads of Islamic states had asserted that terrorism cannot be justified or rationalised in any form. It said: "Almighty Allah's help and grace - to develop our national laws and legislations to criminalise every single terrorist practice and every single practice leading to the financing or instigation of terrorism."

On the other hand, the Deoband Declaration calls for less euphoria because inherent is a catch. Maualana Marghoobur Rehman, the Rector at Darul Uloom, noted that prohibitions against violence might not apply to situations where the community is being harmed, or fighting a war of resistance. But wherever jihadis operate, they claim they are fighting a war of resistance, just as Prophet Mohammed fought against Meccan Koreish, in self-defence.

Now, it is possible for the Muslim intelligentsia to show that Muslims are being oppressed at any place where the state is non-Muslim in character, or too dependent on the West to impose the shari'ah. It is difficult for a Muslim scholar to agree that Muslims have ever done anything wrong to non-Muslims in the world. Rather, it is repeatedly stressed that the poor Muslims are victims of all the wrongs of the world. And since there is scope for redress, then why not reprisal?

It is doubtful if terrorism or rioting is the biggest problem with Islam. Does a terrorist, fidayeen, or rioter view himself as non-Muslim views him? Or, does he feel that he is merely performing a sacred obligation by annihilating the kafirs and kufr around him? He also quotes verses of Quran, cites Hadith and Sunna (sayings and praxis of the Prophet). From United Jihad Council to Hurriyat, the Deoband decree has found few takers in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir and the Valley.

The problem is with the doctrine or worldview, which alienates a believer not only from his nation, but from also from nature, normalcy and heritage. Photography, for instance, is an innocent human pleasure, besides being a necessity in a million ways in the modern world. What if that person who received anti-photography fatwas from Deoband refuses to pose for a mug-shot for his ration card, voter's ID card, passport? What if another faithful proceeds to burn down a photography studio as a vice den and beat up its owner as an agent of kufr?

What Darul Uloom, Deoband or Nadwatul Ulema, Lucknow preach is one pure Islam. Is there anybody there who doesn't admire Shah Waliullah, or can decry Aurangzeb? Go through their literature, at least their websites, and you will fail to find any reference to India's seven-millennia-old civilisation. It glorifies a certain age of India's history and a newcomer is bound to be left thinking if there were also some non-Muslims in the land during tat period.

Yet, with its decree against terrorism, Deoband has repositioned itself in the Muslim world. The very name 'Deoband' was particularly maligned by the Taliban of Afghanistan and its puritan cousins in Pakistan, who identified themselves with the Deobandi school of thought. Maulana Masood Azhar, founder of the Jaish-e-Mohammed, claims to be a Deobandi. The Deobandi conference in April 2001 at Taro Jaba near Peshawar was attended by half-a-million delegates, including many from India. It set an extremist agenda. Jihad has fomented a crisis within the house of Islam today, and it will be interesting to watch which side the camel chooses on.
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Post by Gerard »

Gerard
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Post by Gerard »

Keshav
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Post by Keshav »

The article doesn't mention Hindus or Muslims. Should we just assume the two parties involved?
shiv
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Post by shiv »

Keshav wrote:
The article doesn't mention Hindus or Muslims. Should we just assume the two parties involved?
Thanks for bringing this up. This has been an old rant of mine. I believe this is something that the media need to grow out of, and if the media are being forced to report in this cryptic manner - that needs to be corrected.

It ALWAYS_IS a Muslim-Hindu incident. I suspect that there is a naive belief that saying so explicitly might make the entire nation explode into riots. This is clearly not going to happen. besides the other side of the coin is, even if the clash was between creatures from Neptune and Pluto, in India everybody will assume that it wa a Hindu Muslim clash.

Hindus will typically think "Ah - it's those Muslims at it as usual" and I suspect Muslims will be saying "Persecution. Persecution"
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Post by Rye »

Hope the GoI allocates "minority funds" for these special people who want to help humanity by spreading Islam. :roll:

Spread message of Islam and widen madrasa network: Maulana Syed Nizamuddin
Submitted by Mudassir Rizwan on Tue, 03/25/2008 - 04:57.

* Indian Muslim

By Twocircles.net reporter

Patna: If religiosity and spirituality are found in this country, it is because of madrasas and maktabs, said Maulana Syed Nizamuddin, chief of Imarat Shariah (Bihar, Jharkhand & Orissa).

Speaking at the annual function of Jamia Islamia at Ghoori Ghat in Gaya, Maulana Nizamuddin said madrasas are fort of Islam and the enemies of Islam want to uproot these institutions. Rather than indulging in argument with them, we should widen the network of madrasas and maktabs, said he. Besides, we should highlight the madrasa system of education: how education is imparted there; how morals are imbued and how much stress is put on ethics and social service, he said. We should disseminate the message of Quran and Hadith and tell people how much emphasis the syllabi of madrasas put on security of the country, the millat, human life, honour and dignity, said the Ameer-e-Shariat.

He suggested that public meetings should be organized and people from the Hindu community should also be invited to the meetings so that misunderstandings about Islam and the Muslim community could be removed. Raising the issue of reform in the madrasa education system, Maulana Nizamuddin said that along with Arabic and Islamic subjects, Hindi, English, Mathematics, Science and general knowledge should also be included in madrasa syllabus.
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Post by Rye »

This is another "moderate Indian Muslim" from the indianmuslim.info site -- the chappie who got Gaultier's exhibition shutdown with the help of the DMK schmucks.

http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2008 ... image.html



[quote]
Clearing dust off Aurangzeb’s image
Submitted by Tarique on Tue, 03/18/2008 - 04:43.

* Indian Muslim

By Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah

(In this piece, Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah, President of Tamilnadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam (TMMK), counters claims by artist Francois Gautier about his exhibition on Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb held at Chennai.)

To begin with: Tamilnadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam (TMMK) strongly condemns Francois Gautier for his lies, innuendos and calumnies regarding his exhibition held at Chennai.

Gautier alleges that the Prince of Arcot Nawab Abdul Ali sent a group of goons from TMMK to disturb the exhibition. He also describes TMMK volunteers as the Prince’s ‘henchmen’. This is his sheer imagination and fantasy and portrays his sick mind. The Prince of Arcot neither contacted us regarding the virulent exhibition of Gautier nor would we send our volunteers at the beck and call of the Nawab.

There is a Tamil proverb which says that a single rice is enough to judge the quality of a pot full of cooked rice. Similarly, Gautier’s allegation against the Nawab and TMMK is enough to judge his sincerity and honesty in reporting history. When Gautier cannot report a contemporary event faithfully and truthfully one can very easily judge the veracity of his version of Mughal history depicted in his exhibition.

A galaxy of Hindu historians whose faithfulness are not stained as that of Gautier have strongly refuted the version of Mughal history as depicted by the likes of Gautier. The famous historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus as compared to Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: “No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions.â€
Last edited by Rye on 26 Mar 2008 07:42, edited 3 times in total.
gandharva
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Post by gandharva »

Moved to the "Islamism"
Last edited by gandharva on 25 Mar 2008 21:31, edited 1 time in total.
SwamyG
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Post by SwamyG »

This thread is getting to become Islamism thread. News, articles and daily happenings with other reports could be posted in the Islamism thread, and we could brain storm the dharmic way of tackling Islamism in this thread.
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Post by Rye »

The post on the Indian muslims defence of Aurangazeb is related to the earlier news that the exhibition was trashed in Chennai -- the exhibition on Aurangazeb was based on scholarly work, unlike the noxious vomit written above by "Prof.:" Jawahirullah, that seems to be a a creation of his rear brain in the seating area.

Agree that Gandharva's post is off-topic and should be in the Islamism thread, if at all.
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Post by G Subramaniam »

Rye wrote:The post on the Indian muslims defence of Aurangazeb is related to the earlier news that the exhibition was trashed in Chennai -- the exhibition on Aurangazeb was based on scholarly work, unlike the noxious vomit written above by "Prof.:" Jawahirullah, that seems to be a a creation of his rear brain in the seating area.

Agree that Gandharva's post is off-topic and should be in the Islamism thread, if at all.
'

Jawahariullah is president of TMMK a SIMI front

During the kargil war, the TMMK was openly pro-pakistan in Chennai

Jawahariullah has also roasted kalam in the past for criticising islamic invaders, saying that without the invaders, kalam would still be a hindu
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Post by surinder »

Rye wrote:Some jihadi sh*thead called Jawahirullah defends Aurangazeb's evil against hindus.

This is another "moderate Indian Muslim" from the indianmuslim.info site.

http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2008 ... image.html
Clearing dust off Aurangzeb’s image
Submitted by Tarique on Tue, 03/18/2008 - 04:43.

* Indian Muslim

By Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah

...
Can I request a knowledgable memebr of BRF to point by point rebuttal of this article? For those of us not too aware of History, such a point-by-point rebuttal would be most illuminating.

Thanks.
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Post by sum »

During the kargil war, the TMMK was openly pro-pakistan in Chennai
:eek:
He didnt get lynched for it since feelings were running pretty high during Kargil time??
Btw,Why on earth do (some) tamil muslims support Pakis when they have zilch in common with the TFTA "warrior race"??
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Pious Moslem

Post by Prem »

In last few months ,many articles have been published portraying Aurangjeb some kind of secular icon. This is a mystery, i suspect organizational effort to whitewash this deamon's cruelty.

Surinder , no need to rebut this buthead , the treatment of Kashmiri Pandits by this pious Muslim and the sacrififce of 9th Guru should be enough to burn the tongue of any one who justify the actions Auranga janab.
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Post by Rye »

G. Subramanian wrote:
Jawahariullah is president of TMMK a SIMI front

During the kargil war, the TMMK was openly pro-pakistan in Chennai
While being a SIMI front is definitely wearing a badge of jihadi terror and is a law&order issue -- the "supporting pakistan" claim is less of a real problem. Sure, it would be nice if every Indian cheered for the Indian team, but as long as an Indian is loyal to the constitution and not the shariat, such things can be overlooked in the name of free speech.
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Re: Pious Moslem

Post by surinder »

Prem wrote:In last few months ,many articles have been published portraying Aurangjeb some kind of secular icon. This is a mystery, i suspect organizational effort to whitewash this deamon's cruelty.

Surinder , no need to rebut this buthead , the treatment of Kashmiri Pandits by this pious Muslim and the sacrififce of 9th Guru should be enough to burn the tongue of any one who justify the actions Auranga janab.
I was disguested when I first learnt (many years ago) about Paki admiration for Aurangzeb. When the use the word "Alamgir" for him, it is a dead give-away: Alamgir Aurangzeb.

Many of the Indian History's worst izlamists have written detailed accounts of their own rapacity. That is valuable and interesting piece of data. It seems all Mughal kings had a habit of leaving us with an official auto-biography. I have had a chance to read Jahangir's own autobiography "Tuzuk-e-Jahangiri". He writes about his hatred for Hindus, forced conversions, and his desire to kill Guru Arjun Dev (5th Sikh Guru).

What I am wondering is if there is something similar in accounts left of Aurangzeb. That should settle the story of this tyrant. In a discussion/argument you can give a 1000 arguments. Usually the best argument is short and devastating. A quote from Aurangzeb himself would do the trick.
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Re: Pious Moslem

Post by svinayak »

Prem wrote:In last few months ,many articles have been published portraying Aurangjeb some kind of secular icon. This is a mystery, i suspect organizational effort to whitewash this deamon's cruelty.

Surinder , no need to rebut this buthead , the treatment of Kashmiri Pandits by this pious Muslim and the sacrififce of 9th Guru should be enough to burn the tongue of any one who justify the actions Auranga janab.
This is the part of the cultural fusion they are working on to get Pakistan people/culture into the Indian mainstream/media. Watch this carefully and see the psy ops which will keep coming. They need to create a manufactured consent to show the RAPE class that Indian elite is the same as them. Indian elite wants to have the RAPE class in the Indian breakfast table

Many titles on Mughal period in Bollywood and others will keep coming. The left/maxists have a new project for the nest 30 years. This has to be shot down at the beginning.
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Re: Pious Moslem

Post by Keshav »

surinder wrote:What I am wondering is if there is something similar in accounts left of Aurangzeb. That should settle the story of this tyrant. In a discussion/argument you can give a 1000 arguments. Usually the best argument is short and devastating. A quote from Aurangzeb himself would do the trick.
I can guarantee you there are quotes from his biography.

The killing of Guru Tegh Bahadur is a good example. Why was the Guru needed in the first place? Aurangzeb had told the Kashmiri Pundits that they were to convert or die. They asked him for two months time to make preparations and he granted them it. The Guru stepped in and the rest is history, regardless of whether or not the Guru actually did anything to stop the conversions, which I assume was very little if anything at all.

Off the top of my head, I believe the name of Aurangzeb's biography is "Tarikh-e-Mohammad". Not sure though.
Many titles on Mughal period in Bollywood and others will keep coming. The left/maxists have a new project for the nest 30 years. This has to be shot down at the beginning.
Do you think the average person really believes this stuff? To me it seems odd that anyone is ready to accept Aurangzeb as good when you have heroes like Shivaji whose (almost) entire life is based on fighting the Mughals for "Hindavi Swarajya". Akbar is a different subject and the Rajputs and other Hindu groups have seen through that but I think Aurangzeb (though not as bad Timurlane and others before him) will always be the Indian Hitler.
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Post by SBajwa »

The current Kashmir problem can be traced down to Aurungzeb. Tell naPakis that Auranga was responsible for the Kashmir problem when he forcibly converted their ancestors as well as ancestors of their poet leaders like Iqbal.

Along with Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur ji. There were three of his sikhs were also martyred in front of his eyes .


In order to intimidate the Guru, the qazis (Islamic magistrates) made a plan to torture to death, the Sikhs arrested with the Guru before his eyes. They thought that the Guru would embrace Islam out of fear on seeing the Sikhs murdered. The qazis decreed to cut Bhai Mati Dass with a saw first of all.

Hearing the order of the qazis, Bhai Mati Dass prayed to the Guru, "O True King ! bless me so that I may do my duty by sacfiflcing myself for the glory of the faith." After the Guru had blessed him, the qazis asked Bhai Mati Dass, "Brother, embrace Islam and enjoy the pleasures provided by the goveInment. Moreover when you die as a Muslim, you will go to heaven where there will be streams of milk, many kinds of wine to drink and beautiful women to enjoy. If you do not embrace Islam, your body will be sawn into two." Bhai Mati Dass replied, "I can sacrifice hundreds of such heavens for my faith. I don't need women nor wine. I see all the happiness in the path of my faith." After his refusal, the qazis asked him his last wish, to which he replied, 'When I am being cut with the saw, let my face be towards my mentor so that I may behold my Guru till my last breath and he may keep on seeing me so that he may be convinced how happily I reach my last destination." By the order of the qazis, the executioners sawed Bhai Mati Dass in two on the 8th November, 1675 A.D., in Chandani Chowk, Delhi.

Image


On the 9th November, 1675 A.D., the qazis ordered that Bhai Dayal Dass be seated in a cauldron of boiling water. On hearing the ruling, Bhai Dayal Dass asked leave of the Guru. The Guru said, "Brother, your service has borne fruit due to which your turn has come before mine. Great are you and blessed is your devotion. What pleasure can be greater for me than to see my lifelong devotees sacrificing their lives for the protection of human rights even ahead of me. May God bless you with success."

Before putting Bhai Dayal Dass in the cauldron of boiling water, the qazis said, "There is still time. Embrace Islam and save yourself from pains otherwise you will face greater agony than your companion. You have seen how cruelly he was sawn." Bhai Dayal Dass replied, "You could not harass my companion. Did you notice, how calmly he was meditating on the word of his Guru when he was being sawn. Having made mockery of bodily pains, he had diffused into the Supreme Being. Hurry up and let my soul attain unity with the Lord." On his reply in the negative, the executioners sat him in the cauldron of boiling water. He stayed on sitting in the water with an unwavering mind. His flesh separated from his bones and his soul merged into the Supreme Being.

Image


On the 10th November, 1675 A.D., the qazis ordered Bhai Sati Dass to be wrapped in cotton and burnt. Before being wrapped in cotton, the qazis asked Bhai Sati Dass, "Save your life by embracing Islam and live in pleasure." Bhai Sati Dass replied, 'You cannot understand that my pleasure and happiness lie only in obeying the command of my Guru. It does not lie in saving this life which must end one day." At this reply, the executioners wrapped Bhai Sati Dass in cotton, poured oil over it and set fire to it. Bhai Sati Dass remained calm while burning till his last breath and remained true to his resolve.

Image
Last edited by SBajwa on 26 Mar 2008 04:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

What I am wondering is if there is something similar in accounts left of Aurangzeb. That should settle the story of this tyrant. In a discussion/argument you can give a 1000 arguments. Usually the best argument is short and devastating. A quote from Aurangzeb himself would do the trick.
Basically, you won't find much in biographies. All Mughal emperors had official historians in their court who recorded day to day events of the kingdom as the dispatches came in from the provinces. These offical court chronicles that detail the orders of Aurangzeb and his deeds is where the meat is.

This white-washing of Aurangzeb's deeds is a campaign essentially orchestrated by the communists and leftists, especitally those which wear the mask of historians but actually tailor their output to further the official party line.
Some foreign authors, influenced by Indian colleagues, have also added a big dose of negationism to their work on Indian history. For instance, Percival Spear, co-author (with Romila Thapar) of the Penguin History of India, writes: "Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares."

This is a repetition of the thesis defended by Zahiruddin Faruki in his "Aurangzeb and his times" (1935), recently taken up again by S.N.M. Abdi in Illustrated Weekly of India (5/12/1992), who claims that Aurangzeb was not anti-Hindu, and that the Ma'asir-i-Alamgiri (made available to the public by the Royal Society of Bengal and translated by Jadunath Sarkar), which lists Aurangzeb's temple- destroying activities from day to day, is a forgery. Faruki and Abdi count on the public's limited zeal for checking the sources, when they falsely claim that "apart from the Ma'asir-i-Alamgiri, there is no other reference to the order for the destruction of temples", and that we do not hear of any protest which large-scale temple destruction would have caused.

Abdi thinks he can get away with claiming as evidence a stone slab allegedly seen by Faruki in the Gyanvapi mosque in Benares, mentioning a date (1659) that does not tally with the traditional date (1669) of the forcible replacement of the Kashi Vishvanath temple with this mosque; even while admitting that "the slab seen by Faruki has disappeared mysteriously, along with another significant piece of evidence". Without blinking, he then cites a theory that the Gyanvapi mosque already existed under Akbar, i.e. a century before either of the two dates. Further, he quotes as authority a local agitator who claims: "My research reveals that a Buddhist vihara was demolished to make way for a temple, which was subsequently pulled down and the Gyanvapi mosque constructed on its site." The first claim, in spite of flaunting the pretentious term research, in a plain lie; the second is of course true but contradicts the case which Mr. Abdi is building up. Such is the quality of the argument for Aurangzeb's tolerance and Hindu- friendliness.

What are the facts? In Beneras (Varanasi), Aurangzeb (1658-1707) did not just build an isolated mosque on a destroyed temple. He ordered all temples destroyed, among them the Kashi Vishvanath, one of the most sacred places of Hinduism, and had mosques built on a number of cleared temple sites. All other Hindu sacred places within his reach equally suffered destruction, with mosques built on them; among them, Krishna's birth temple in Mathura, the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujrat, the Vishnu temple replaced with the Alamgir mosque now overlooking Benares, the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 4, if not in 5 figures.

According to the official court chronicle, Aurangzeb "ordered all provincial governors to destroy all schools and temples of the Pagans and to make a complete end to all Pagan teachings and practices". The chronicle sums up the destructions like this: "Hasan Ali Khan came and said that 172 temples in the area had been destroyed... His majesty went to Chittor, and 63 temples were destroyed... Abu Tarab, appointed to destroy the idol-temples of Amber, reported that 66 temples had been razed to the ground".

In quite a number of cases, inscriptions on mosques and local tradition do confirm that Aurangzeb built them in forcible replacement of temples (some of these inscriptions have been quoted in Sitaram Goel: Hindu Temples, vol.2, along with a number of independent written accounts). Aurangzeb's reign ws marked by never-ending unrest and rebellions, caused by his anti-Hindu policies, which included the reimposition of the jizya and other zimma rules, and indeed the demolition of temples.
From
"Negationaism in India - Concealing the Record of Islam" by Koenraad Elst

The book is available online for reading at
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/negaind/

A contemporary historian, Saki Mustai'dd Khan in his Ma'asir-i Alamgiri writes:

(The History of India as told by its own historians, vol. VII, pp. 183)

"On the 17th Zi-l kada 1079 (18th April 1669), it reached the ear of His majesty, the protector of the faith, that in the provinces of Thatta, Multan and Benaras, but specially in the latter, foolish Brahmins were in the habit of expounding frivolous books in their schools, and the students and learners, Mussulmans as well as Hindus, went there, even from long distances, led by desire to become acquainted with the wicked sciences they taught. (Emphasis added to show cause)

"The "Director of the faith" consequently issued orders to all the governors of provinces to destroy with a willing hand the schools and temples of the infidels; and they were strictly enjoined to put an entire stop to the teaching and practicing of idolatrous forms of worship. On the 15th Rabi-ul Akhir it was reported to his religious Majesty, the leader of the unitarians, that, in obedience to the order, the Government officers had destroyed the temple of Bishnath at Benaras."
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Post by Prem »

Bajwa ji,
If they allow it,
Will you please post same on the following website
http://www.indianmuslims.in

Onlee a person detached from humanity will try to defend Aurnagjeb who without doubt and we all agree was a pious Muslim .
Last edited by Prem on 26 Mar 2008 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sanjaychoudhry »

"The Story of Islamic Imperialism in India" by Sitaram Goel.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/siii/

Read the Aurangzeb section of Chapter 7
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Post by Multatuli »

SBajwa wrote :

Bhai Dayal Dass replied, "You could not harass my companion. Did you notice, how calmly he was meditating on the word of his Guru when he was being sawn. Having made mockery of bodily pains, he had diffused into the Supreme Being. Hurry up and let my soul attain unity with the Lord." On his reply in the negative, the executioners sat him in the cauldron of boiling water. He stayed on sitting in the water with an unwavering mind. His flesh separated from his bones and his soul merged into the Supreme Being.
Thank you very much for this post. Now this is the character of true martyrs, not the Islamic scum that commits act of terror all over the world to break the free will of people. I am not a Sikh, but I bow down in respect for these noble souls.
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Post by SBajwa »

Prem,

I tried but it is a strictly controlled website.
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Post by SBajwa »

I just send out an email to the editor

Dear Editor,



I would love to have an article or commentary by your esteemed authors., regarding past political problems arising out of "islam" and future unseen problems arising out of such issues. Kashmir problem can be traced down to Aurungzeb whom many of our brothers from across the border (naPakistan) call "Alamgir". He was responsible for murders of Ninth Sikh Gurus and his three Sikhs as well as attacks on Tenth Guru and subsequent creation of the Khalsa. It is because of the policies of Aurungzeb that our country was partitioned into three countries., It is time to recognize such Naqshbandi, Deobandi and Aurungzeb like Characters and root them out of Islam. Make Islam more indianized instead of becoming more arabicized.



thanks

Sandeep
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Post by Prem »

SBajwa wrote:I just send out an email to the editor

Dear Editor,
and root them out of Islam. Make Islam more indianized instead of becoming more arabicized.

thanks

Sandeep
IM website confirm the notion that they want to live a lie and expect others to practice same . Lets watch if your comments have any effect on secular media. Its very uphill battle but every little counts to support Dharma . It is shame on our ancestors blood that we still tolerate Aurangjeb and his followers in the name of peace.
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Post by SwamyG »

Rye wrote:The post on the Indian muslims defence of Aurangazeb is related to the earlier news that the exhibition was trashed in Chennai -- the exhibition on Aurangazeb was based on scholarly work, unlike the noxious vomit written above by "Prof.:" Jawahirullah, that seems to be a a creation of his rear brain in the seating area.

Agree that Gandharva's post is off-topic and should be in the Islamism thread, if at all.
It was not directed at your post in particular. Just look at some of the preceding posts; they have the tone and intention of just communicating some piece of news. Even the Madras FACT exhibition issue should have been on the Islamism thread.
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Post by Rye »

SwamyG, do you disagree with the contention that Azeb is a central figure that is linked to the wrong kind of Islam practised by some Indians? (the same regressive, violent behaviour that is applauded by the unwashed masses in Pakistan. ) This is about Tackling Islamism in India. Are you saying that a public exhibition of scholarly work of history and facts about Azeb was closed down should not be in this thread? Do you like the whole "free speech" thing you enjoy? Shouldn't that be part of the problem that we have with islamic extremism in India. If not, why not?

This was done by the fellow who represents the largest "islamic" party in TN, and he is creating this racket. And the effing cretins in the Madras Police Dept. vandalize an exhibition and arrest some old lady volunteers. You don't think there is anything wrong with the behaviour of the TN govt. which authorized this police behaviour?
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Post by G Subramaniam »

Rye wrote:G. Subramanian wrote:
Jawahariullah is president of TMMK a SIMI front

During the kargil war, the TMMK was openly pro-pakistan in Chennai
While being a SIMI front is definitely wearing a badge of jihadi terror and is a law&order issue -- the "supporting pakistan" claim is less of a real problem. Sure, it would be nice if every Indian cheered for the Indian team, but as long as an Indian is loyal to the constitution and not the shariat, such things can be overlooked in the name of free speech.
This is not stupid IMs cheering TSP cricket team
This was 10000 IMs raising slogans in favor of TSP during kargil war
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