Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 6

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JCage
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Post by JCage »

Sumeet wrote:Why can't visa power make Taslima Happy ?

You guys HAVE to WATCH this on CNN IBN. I have never seen Rajdeep so angry. Look at his face expression. He literally humiliates the Congress minister on this issue and also makes the other panelist join him in humiliating him. In the end he takes a shot at CPI-M too for [psuedo] secularism.

So dhimmi media is de-dhimmifying. I really liked when Rajdeep on an open public platform equated congress with likes of Togadia who again in congress definition is one of the abominable people in India. Must have hurt their H&D a lot. Kind of chanakiyan way to go about it.
They are still dhimmis. They have to attack Hindus just to prove their liberal "==" credentials despite seeing what muslim politicians do when they have political power. Ie attack anyone who does not glorify Islam and the "religion of peace" and threaten anyone who thinks different, with death. Togadia et al's crime is that they saw through this ages back and did not compromise for mealy mouthed offers of "communal amity" and what not. And that grates, and how! And in this noble venture of "==", the great liberal elite are supoorted by the despicable sellout congress. A pox on the Congress and all those who abide by them to sell out India in the name of "secularism". What a farce this term has become, a woman is attacked just because she spoke about Islams brutal treatment of minorities and women. And this non Muslim country goes along with it. Its clear that centuries of Islamic repression have almost permanently damaged the synapses of our body politic, so much so that there is an ingrained reaction to criticizing Islam- "dont do it". Sardesai is just trying to play to his gallery which still prides itself on it not being Hindu but "being above such things". For him & his ilk, any statement of fact against a Muslim political group has to be tempered with a comment against Hindu groups.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

ramana wrote:Folsk I have followed numerous version of this thread. I see that invariably when the talk comes to tackling Islamic extremism it turns to reform or codifying Hindusim. Again the problem is with Islamism and not Hinduism which is an all encompassing religious way of life which exists because its not codified. The problem with Islamism is its an anti-Colonialism reaction and the Indian version is getting Deobandised/Wahabised. An extreme version of Islam is taking shape.

By changing Hinduism to will not solve the Islamism problem. I do wish folks dont get mixed up in the two issues. Hinduism reforms will go on for their own sake as they always have done.
Ramana,

Got to disagree on this one - sorry mate!
No system undergoes reform for its own sake, it only does that to react to external issues.

A system that survives must be efficient (internal reform) and effective (be able to react to external threats and opportunities).
Hinduism in its current form is neither effective nor efficient!

Islamism is a threat and an opportunity as you point out and it will change Hinduism or wipe it out.
You can either reform now or do what we did historically and fight in an unorganized, scatter-brained, disunited manner.

A structural ideology change is required to take up this challenge - there is no choice!

PS: All that said, you can tell me this thread is not the place to talk about this issue.. and I would agree with that statement. However, every time I see muddle headed discussions on Islam(ism) without understanding Hinduism, it makes me see even more clearly the need to make crystal clear to all Hindus what they represent!
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 19 Feb 2008 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Post by ramana »

OK but why discuss Hindusim in a thread on Islamic extremism in India. Sort of non sequitor right?
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Post by Pulikeshi »

ramana wrote:OK but why discuss Hindusim in a thread on Islamic extremism in India. Sort of non sequitor right?
There is no place on BRF to discuss reform of Hinduism :mrgreen:

So, I am off this thread now as per your suggestion.
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Post by alokgupt »

Why does Teesta support bail petitions for terrorists held for train burning at Godhra?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 796616.cms

NEW DELHI: Teesta Setalvad, who has been a crusader for Gujarat riot cases, on Monday drew sharp criticism from the Chief Justice of India for her article, which virtually blamed the Supreme Court for delay in hearing of bail petitions of accused in the train burning case at Godhra which triggered the violence.

The SC did not raise any questions on her long standing association with the riot victims or steps she had taken to bring the perpetrators to book. What troubled the CJI, Justice K G Balakrishnan, was her outburst in a signed article accusing the top court of unnecessary delay of four years in deciding the bail pleas of the Godhra train burning case accused.

The trial in the case had been stayed and the apex court is examining whether the central Pota review committee recommendation for dropping anti-terrorism law charges against them could be followed by the trial court, even after it had framed charges against the accused.

Even before senior advocate Harish Salve could open the arguments for the accused, the Bench comprising the CJI and Justices R V Raveendran and Dalveer Bhandari made known their extreme displeasure over Setalvad's article published some time ago.

It started on an unusual note. The CJI asked all the lawyers appearing for the Godhra case accused whether they had any truck with Setalvad, and if so, the Bench would not like to hear those petitions which had any link with her.

Astonished at the sudden outburst, Salve and others immediately distanced themselves from Setalvad and presumptively said that her article could be on the petition filed by National Human Rights Commission seeking CBI probe into important riot cases and transfer of their trial outside Gujarat.

The CJI was clear that the innuendo in the article was unwarranted as the Benches were fixed and dates given through computer and not manually. "The article is shameful to say the least," the Bench said.

"There are some articles in the newspaper which are educative, and there are some which we ignore. But, what is this article indicating that the matters are not getting posted and that the court is being unfair. This article (by Setalvad) is not in good taste," the CJI said.

However, the Bench resumed hearing the bail petitions after Salve said that the court should treat the article with the contempt it deserved.
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Some quotes from Spengler article in Asia times

Post by G Subramaniam »

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Eco ... 0Dj08.html

One might describe Europe’s civil condition as a low-intensity civil war. Outright violence is limited to the sort of rioting by Muslim youth gangs that erupted in France in October 2006, and on a smaller scale in Denmark during the past week. But the threat of violence, including widespread intimidation of public figures, is continuous. Wilders lives under constant police protection. The courageous Ayaan Hirsi Ali, co-maker of the film that cost Theo van Gogh his life in 2004 and the author of a bestselling tract against Islam, remains in constant danger of assassination. Her predicament sets in relief the moral bankruptcy of Europe’s governments.
....

If decent and well-meaning men like Dr Williams are so afraid of communal violence as to abandon the founding principles of common law and Judeo-Christian ethics, it is long past time to debate the fine points. Blessed are the pre-emptors, for they will get on with it.
...

Blessed are the pre-emptors, for they may redeem you yet. And do unto others before they do unto you.
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Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:Folsk I have followed numerous version of this thread. I see that invariably when the talk comes to tackling Islamic extremism it turns to reform or codifying Hindusim. Again the problem is with Islamism and not Hinduism which is an all encompassing religious way of life which exists because its not codified. The problem with Islamism is its an anti-Colonialism reaction and the Indian version is getting Deobandised/Wahabised. An extreme version of Islam is taking shape.

By changing Hinduism to will not solve the Islamism problem. I do wish folks dont get mixed up in the two issues. Hinduism reforms will go on for their own sake as they always have done.
Ramana - please don;t get me wrong.

I have involved myself deeply in these threads and there is deep piskology here.

Someone quoted a scorpion and frog story somewhere on these threads.

A frog gives a non-swimmer scorpion a lift across a river. The scorpion stings the frog mid-stream. The dying frog asks "Why did you do that - we will both die". The scorpion replies "It is in my nature"

It is not as though people deliberately want to discuss Hinduism. But hurt Hindu sentiment and self esteem play a very major role in Hindu attitudes towards islam. The nature of Hinduism and the reaction of Hindus to islam is fundamental to understanding. Not discussing one side (Hindu feelings) makes the discussion completely meaningless.

I have discovered on this thread that a discussion of Islam alone does absolutely nothing more than the Islamism threads to help reach an understanding of the dynamics of Islamism in India. However - dipping into Hindu psyche and the Hindus sense of hurt at the rape and insults that have been piled on has moulded Indian attitudes.

It is absolutely essential to talk about that, or else we can lock the thread and decide that we do not want to talk about the truth. That was done once before. I am requesting that you do not misunderstand what is happening on here.
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Post by shiv »

Let me pen down a few more thoughts while I have a few spare moments.

When any entity meets and interacts with any other entity, both those entities show some changes or effects. This is an unconventional but valid application of Newton's third law.

When Islam met Christianity, both Islam and Christianity were affected by the other in some way.

When Sanatana Dharmis met Islam, both were affected. By defining the behavior of one and not understanding how that behavior may have been modified or affected by the other we are heading away from answers, not towards them.

Several mistakes of the past - both on and off this forum are compounded by willingly ignoring a Hindu view of Islam.

The first error is an perpetuating the myth that Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) is "religion that demands allegiance to one God" in perfect equal-equalitis with islam. This is itself a source of conflict because this is a misunderstanding of SD/Hinduism - and it is a misunderstanding caused by outside observers misinterpreting Hinduism - not by Hindus. This will need to be corrected if we want to do things right and not ignore what is difficult.

The second mistake we make if we do not discuss the Hindu view is also one of ignorant equal-equalitis. This mistake assumes that Hinduism and islam are on an equal footing in terms of their representation in public space. Such an assumption is a gross travesty of justice to Hindus for teh following reasons:

1) Islam is much more politically organised that Hinduism. That means that Islam has developed a body of educated spokespersons who speak for islam and highlight all Islams grievances, while pointing out all the weaknesses of anyone who opposes islam

2) Hinduism on the other hand has not been politically organised, and has no body of experts to point out Hindu grievances (which obviously do exist) and also no experts to point out how Hinduism has constantly been absorbing criticism without anyone being skilled enough to express what is right among Hindus and what is wrong in Islam.

The fact that these things matter to people is clearly indicated by the way this thread veers towards these issues rather than towards Islamism although I have tried to force it in the opposite direction by making some of the most outrageous accusations against Islam and Muslims just to try and shock people into changing the subject.

Those efforts of mine were wrong and I would have learned no lessons if I do not sit up and take note of the fact of Hindu grievances about misrepresentation that play a powerful a role in Hindu attitudes towards Islam even after the murderous sting of Islam is fading.
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Post by ramana »

OK Shiv. I agree if the parameters are what you set its OK with me. However I don't see any utility in reforming Hindusim to tackle extremism.
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Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:OK Shiv. I agree if the parameters are what you set its OK with me. However I don't see any utility in reforming Hindusim to tackle extremism.
Agree, there is no point in talk of reform of Hinduism or of a "Dharma Shastra" for Hindus, in context of Islamism. Just to be clear, on what I think you are saying that it does not necessarily mean that Hindusim has no role to play to tackle Islamism in India.

In the past, there have been some who have said that a good and well implemented set of laws with "true" secularism, modern education and economic and social well being can tackle all the ills of Islamism. My contention is that, these by themselves are not enough. The solutions to Islamism, run through the Hindu/Dharmic soul in India. Not until, the Hindus have restored this soul, will solutions to Islamism be found.
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Post by Sanku »

^^^^

I agree.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

ramana wrote:OK Shiv. I agree if the parameters are what you set its OK with me. However I don't see any utility in reforming Hindusim to tackle extremism.
Sorry boss, still don't see what you are saying!

What is the nature of this extremism we are tackling here?
Is this extremism - religious or political?
Or is it just a law & order issue?

Can a political system analyze a religious system?

You may not like my message - fine.
However, if we need to deal with Islamism as a police - law & order issue - we may close this thread and let our police and defense forces take care of the issue.

If all we want to do is apply psychological balm - then we need a therapy thread for "hurt" Hindus.
To cure them of "mental abuse" - However, some of us have no ill feeling for Muslim citizens of India, only against the religio-political ideology of exclusivity.

The ideology of Islamism can only be dealt with by another ideology.
Similar to: Communism can only be dealt with Capitalism, etc.
This means a political ideology of Hinduism needs to be developed!

However, in my view this political Hindu ideology has no place in the Constitution of India - which is a non-religious social contract with the state.
Cannot toss centuries of what we have learnt from the west about "natural law" out the door!

My message is a bitter pill - but what is the alternative?
I am willing to listen. Just hope it is not a rehash of threads past!
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 20 Feb 2008 10:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by asprinzl »

It is not that Hinduism needs some sort of reformation but the need of the age is a well politicised Hindu ideology. Islam is an ideology and Hinduism is a religion. They can't tango as equal. Only an ideology can confront Islam. Hence the need to birth a Chankian Hindu political ideology. This should not be construed as reforming Hindu religion.
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Post by Sanku »

Pulikeshi wrote: This is why, when a idiot like Naik or others tells a Hindu he or she is a castiest pig - all they can do is stammer and feel sorry for themselves.
Pulikeshi - While I see where you are getting to -- I think you have the wrong starting point -- a new Dharma Shastra is not be written because our enemies make false accusations. This exercise will be akin to chasing our tail.

Further at any point of time in history many concurrent Dharma Shastra's have existed and been followed; I dont think if one is added much impact will be seen. In fact I have seen interpretations of Gita which are on lines of what you just mentioned.

What is needed is that the Indian populace gets re-exposed to Indic values in a structured formal values once again. The education system which was broken by various firangi's must be made whole.

I don't think its possible for all Hindus across India to agree to one Dharma Shastra at any point of time anyway.

What we need is to respread the fundamentals and let people make their own derivations.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Sanku wrote: Pulikeshi - While I see where you are getting to -- I think you have the wrong starting point -- a new Dharma Shastra is not be written because our enemies make false accusations. This exercise will be akin to chasing our tail.
Sanku,

I am open to the suggestion that I have this all wrong. If indeed it is a wasteful exercise - I can recoup my opportunity cost! :mrgreen:

However, I am not doing a good job explaining my suggestion. The Dharma Shasta is not a religious text at all in my mind. It is a text that establishes the common set of rules for Hindu's to live by (not the legal system), but the moral code. This is what can form the foundation of the religo-political ideology that needs to be invented.

The short coming of previous Dharma Shastras written in my mind is that they never had a nation-state or a political angle to them. All they did was either talk about the codification of society, and or the maintenance of status quo. Worse yet, they spent too much time on high-fluting philosophy. This has lead modern, educated Hindus to reject or ignore such works, fancy themselves free and have no moral center point.

Freedom without a moral compass is a crime to inflict on society!

Like I said at the very beginning: Dharma (has many layers) in my mind it has nothing to do with religion per se - it exists only to stabilize society.
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Post by Sanku »

Pulikeshi wrote:Like I said at the very beginning: Dharma (has many layers) in my mind it has nothing to do with religion per se - it exists only to stabilize society.
And as I said before -- I do see where you are getting to -- however the main thing is not writing this Dharma Shastra (I am sure you can find a close one written a while back if you looked for it) -- It is spreading A Dharma shastra -- any one as far as I am concerned.

Thus the crucial aspect for this NEW doctrine must be that

IT IS SPREADABLE

As such it should not conflict with previous understanding of Dharma; since a conflict will put its effort of spread back.

Essentially -- a common minimum program of all trends and aspects of Hinduism seen so far.

And if you agree with the above -- Just pick up Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo's work and start spreading them -- feel free to add some political agenda with it though.

:mrgreen:
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Post by Pulikeshi »

asprinzl wrote:It is not that Hinduism needs some sort of reformation but the need of the age is a well politicised Hindu ideology. Islam is an ideology and Hinduism is a religion. They can't tango as equal. Only an ideology can confront Islam. Hence the need to birth a Chankian Hindu political ideology. This should not be construed as reforming Hindu religion.
Avram
Avram,

I completely agree with your suggestion. Chanakya himself wrote the ArthaShastra - as a repackage and reinvention of the older Dharma Shastras, with his own additions and interpretations. I have no interest in reforming the Hindu religion at a spiritual level :-)

That said, I don't support a Dharma rajya to be established in India either.
We cannot ignore the lessons learnt - albeit by the west - in the areas of political and religious freedom .

Centuries of ideas from Hobbes, Paine and others have not been incorporated and analyzed to form a synthesis in Hindu political thinking.
It has remained stagnant since Islam and British hegemony of the sub-continent. Turning inward to the point of irrelevance.
The question in my mind is really - What would Chanakya write if he analyzed the situation today?
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Post by Sumeet »

Let me state some background info, basically my view of religion etc:

Religion to me means: Concept of God [monotheist/polytheist], Means to him[ philosophy, devotion, meditation, mysticism], belief & practices [
heaven, hell, soul, asceticism, superstitions, places of worship, pilgrimage, fasting, rituals, ceremonies, reincarnation, one life only, ethics, morals etc].

Indic religion of hindusim, buddhism, jaininsm, sikhism "each" of them provide "their own" answers to the above concepts by either denying one or more of the above or elaborating on them in case of acceptance of these notions.

Similarly Christianity & Judaism also do the same. People need religion. And Indian people can choose from 4 Indic + 2 above mentioned middle eastern religions to satisfy their religious cravings. So we have 6 choices for Indian people.


Now when it comes to Islam, it in addition to presenting a plain religion goes ahead and imposes a certain political, economic and social framework on its adherents and makes it blasphemous to follow Islam incompletely ie to just follow just one or some aspect(s) w/o paying due regards in thoughts, actions to others. In other words to be a true Muslim you are required to follow all the aspects.

All that one needs to do is completely dilute political, economic & social influence of Islam on Indian muslims. That will totally Indianize Islam. It will be 7th option for Indian people to satisfy their religious craving just like other options. It will be up to an individual to take a certain path or convert to another w/o intimidation and interference from any supervising, organized body.

So why do we have to create a political ideology of hinduism ?

Why can't a secular constitution if held in "truest spirit" defeat an ideology that simply ain't a religion but political, economic & social ideology as well and because of which its incompatible with constitution itself.

Note: One didn't need any new ideology to defeat Nazism. Ataturk victory against political and social islam is pretty much self evident in behavior of stat of Turkey.

Besides that creating and practicing political ideology of Hinduism will only invite a new equal equal. As of now the dhimmi media cannot find equivalence of social Islam and pan-Islamism in Hinduism. Why happily give them that ? I have personally seen Barkha ask that question to some muslim guy may be sahubuddin on we the people on NDTV without bring in equal equal simply because there exist none. Let this aspect of Islam come in the spotlight. And condemn it from every direction [intellectual, news media, political class]. That will embarrass a lot of Muslims and you can expect them to move away with passage of time. Grab it by its weak point and then continuously press it with your finger with all might.
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Post by Sanku »

Hello Sumeet;

Based on the discussions so far there are two problems with the solution you propose for Indianizing Islamism.

1) Islamism will never on its own modify into a secular and tolerant version. It will require force and history has shown the moment the force lifts Islam tends to go back to its "real" nature. So far no one knows who long it will take for the force to exist for permanent change to take place. And how large does the force footprint needs to be; i.e. only in India or all over the world?

It is interesting that you bring up Turkey because Turkey after a flash in pan reformation seems to have started sliding back on the slope to its eventual end.

2) It has been shown that Hindu's have not been able to create the needed force for above in the nation state context. Thus what we have is a mildly Islamic state of India. This despite the fact that most Hindus are actually unhappy with how things are.

The above to learnings have largely driven the "how to rally hindus" Once that is done the rest follows.

As to the human refuse in form of NDTV anchors etc? They never tire of playing with the forked tounge against hindus; different rules for different times and so is the game the Islamists play; both the overt and the covert (so called moderate) variety. So trying to do the right thing to win their game is a losing proposition by design.

Shiv has been proposing we beat them at their game.
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Post by shiv »

One of the thoughts that I have is that "Islamic extremism" in India can be viewed from two vantage points.

From one view it is Islamism's excesses alone - and the unreasonable demands and rhetoric that accompanies Islamism.

The other view is the Hindu viewpoint. In truth the Hindu viewpoint may be that of "former dhimmis" - but using that expression can cause needless hurt and anger (of cognitive dissonance) although the accusation may be true.

The hurt and insult that have been piled on Hindus and Hinduism are not forgiven easily. I spoke in an earlier paragraph of the political organization in islam that produces spokepersons.

The article on Indianmuslims.org that was discussed earlier in this thread was penned by Kaleem Kawaja and he speaks of a natural pride in Islamic history.

He is welcome to have his views, but in truth there is an equal natural pride in Hindu history too, and when one speaks words like "pride" it must also be understood that one is speaking or human emotions and human reactions. When pride is insulted, it leads to anger (not sorrow,happiness,friendship, love hunger or lust). Hindu pride exists and it has been insulted. And when pride gets insulted there is a difficult to control and unreasonable desire to redeem that pride by doing something bad to the person (or entity) that has hurt that pride.

What does this mean in real terms to Hindu-Muslim relations in India.

I see it as follows. The loss of Hindu pride by insults and a modern day revival of Hindu pride is leading to a desire to insult and kick Islam in as many ways and much harder than what is remembered as Islam's excesses against Hindus and Hinduism. The meaning of this is that to a small extent in India, it is not just anger against Islam, but an anger at every Muslim who represents that egregious mindset that has insulted Hindus.

If I was to cook up a hypothetical scenario in which all Muslims were to apologize to Hindus for islamic excesses of the past - it would still not be sufficient to redeem Hindu honor - such is the feeling of hurt among some Hindus at least. There will be a demand to leave behind islam to follow the apology.

These words are easy to write, but if true they represent a difficult political problem faced by India. Islam is seen as a disruptive, destructive and divisive force by many Hindus who are not hampered by the need for Western style political correctness. And these feelings are only aggravated and cause great anger when Islam is described as an egalitarian, inclusive religion of peace - words that are seen by many Hindus as plain lies.

In this sort of mental atmosphere "the truth" and dharma can take a back seat easily.

If I describe a thought experiment in which I select two people, one of whom loves spiders and the other hates them and I ask them both to make a list of things that are not good about spiders, the chap who does not like them is likely to produce a longer list than the one who likes them. The mental state is important to the way anything is perceived.

So if you have a bunch of Hindus who are hurt about Islam's excesses - they are likely to describe many more aspects of muslim behavior as "extremism" than a person who is neutral or even a dhimmi.

For this reason it becomes next to impossible to define Islamic extremism. Being Muslim is extremism for some Hindus. Merely claiming to be Hindu is extremism for some secular dhimmi Hindus.

Leave alone the situation for Hindus - the situation in India can actually be impossible to sort out for many Muslims. In fact it leads to a knot that cannot be unravelled directly.

The only way out in my opinion is to first salvage Hindu pride. Only that is likely to partially assuage the anger that many Hindus feel. There has to be a limit to the extent to which every wrong in India society and even non existent problems are blamed on Hindus even as Hindu history is denied and fudged. The insult of historic culture-cide is being compounded by a studious denial of history and claims that Hindus must be lying (as usual) for talking about what really happened.

These are genuine complaints whose airing may well serve to reduce Hindu irritation with the way they have been lampooned in the only country that is as sacred to them as the Kaaba may be to Muslims.
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Post by SSridhar »

Muslim heads huddle to discuss terror

We need to watch this carefully and see how they calibrate terror etc. Deoband is the source of a lot of evil in TSP and it has not been as effective in India because of the indic religions. After having caused all the mayhem in the neighbourhood, and even in India, Deoband cannot now disown its responsibilities. It should be held fair and square for its extreme interpretations of Islam.
A meeting at Darul Uloom at Deoband next week, expected to be attended by ulema from over 6,000 madrassas including those affiliated to other sects like Barelvis and Ahl-e-Hadiz, will deliberate on the need to take a stand against groups which justify terrorism as being sanctioned by Islam.

The day-long discussions have been planned in view of terror groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed arguing that violence against non-believers, including innocent bystanders, was part of religious duty and was theologically approved by Deoband's Darul Uloom.


"We have condemned terrorism earlier. But this time we felt that as an institution, the Darul Uloom had to take an initiative to make it clear that Islam does not sanction terrorism and that Deobandis do not believe in this either," said Maulana Mahmood Madani, general secretary of Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind.

The organisers of the conclave said terrorist tanzims, which drew ideological inspiration and recruited fighters from madrassas in Pakistan, have argued that teachings of Deoband were their inspiration.

"We want to say that what happens in their madrassas is their business. {How convenient ?} We are keen to make it clear that killing innocents, let's say someone walking on the road, is not justified in Islam," {The implications are obvious. Waging war against a government is not considered as terrorism. This justifies Kashmiri terrorists. This justifies attacks on the Army, Police etc.} said the school's deputy rector Qazi Usman.

The task before the meeting, which is slated to take place on February 25, will comprise offering a theological explanation repudiating the "divine" duty claimed by figures like Syed Hafiz Saeed, head of LeT, in calling for a violent jihad against India. "If such violence is jihad, then Muslims will be bound by it. {That's the problem. Thay accept violence, jiahd are part and parcel of a Muslim. But who could say it is jihad ? A Caliph could. There is no modern-day Caliph. Hence, various terror groups announce their own programs as jihads as there is no central authority. So, one Muslim group could conveniently indulge in jihad and terror while the other will decry any strong measures against Muslims by putting up injured innocence and victimization in view of their rejection of jihad. This is forked tongue and has to be recognized as such} But we are saying this is not jihad. It is, in fact, anti-Islam besides being anti-national," said Madani.

Both Madani and Usman felt that terrorism was posing questions which needed urgent answers. Muslims were being drawn into acts of terror, often as foot soldiers or local collaborators. This led to security agencies coming down hard on Muslim suspects even as equating terrorism with Islam was resulting in bitterness and suspicion between communities. {There you go. Islam is a religion of peace. Musliams are wrongly targetted. There are genuine grievances of Muslim communities yada yada...}"We need to involve ourselves as Islam gets a bad name," said Madani. The increasing involvement of local recruits was also worrying.

"We have to forcefully oppose terrorism. We also have warn to people that they must not be misguided and drawn to a violent act that will help those opposed to our society and motherland," said Usman.
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Post by SwamyG »

One step towards tackling Islamism in India is to break Pakistan.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

swamyG,

The very fact that atleast in certain forums such converstations about Islam and the future of Indian Muslims taking place means -
that Pakistan as an ideology is dead!
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Shiv,
shiv wrote: The article on Indianmuslims.org that was discussed earlier in this thread was penned by Kaleem Kawaja and he speaks of a natural pride in Islamic history.
I appreciate your view that a lot of this has to do with the "deep sense of abuse" that many Hindus feel their community has/is been subjected to....

However, not all Hindu view points are from this sense of persecution and abuse alone!
shiv wrote: One of the thoughts that I have is that "Islamic extremism" in India can be viewed from two vantage points.
I think you are suggesting that there are two vantage points - one is a secular take on Islamism and the other is the "hurt" Hindu view on Islamism.

I suggest there is a third vantage point - that of a renaissance Hindu.
One that come for a certain class of Hindus who have escaped the orbit of their "Dhimmified" cousins.
These folks are causing a questioning of the existing social space between Indian Muslims and Hindus and asking why there cannot be a change in the "adjustment" that existed between Hindus and Muslims in India historically. Further, why can't Indian democracy be made truly secular but in an Indian (Hindu) way of Dhramic tolerance rather than negation of the influence of the Temple upon State.

Finally, interesting conversation with Kaleem by the way. My thoughts, which I have shared, is not that Indian Islam needs to make peace with a redefining, ascendantly dominant Hinduism, but to make peace with its own internal contradictions and find space in the fabric of Indian society.
Perhaps the government can help - but not with reservations, but with non-institutionalized support, proportional representation and mandatory universal education.

This means acknowledging that there are different forms of Islam in different parts of India - they are not a monolithic entity.
What is the similarity between a Kerala and a Kashmiri Muslim?
It would be silly to say the same book.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

Sanku wrote: And if you agree with the above -- Just pick up Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo's work and start spreading them -- feel free to add some political agenda with it though.
Sanku,

With due respect, but those books and works are editorials and not an ideology per se. If they were to suffice, then they should have already solved the problem and there is no need to discuss this anymore.
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Post by Sanku »

Pulikeshi wrote: It would be silly to say the same book.
Perhaps it would be silly; but the truth is not obliged to be complicated for the benefit of intellectuals.
:P :mrgreen:
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Post by Sanku »

Pulikeshi wrote: With due respect, but those books and works are editorials and not an ideology per se. If they were to suffice, then they should have already solved the problem and there is no need to discuss this anymore.
I think that where the fundamental disconnect is; the problem is not ideology or writing; its action.

How many people are aware of what the Swami's wrote? If people are not; how would those books have solved the problem?

We spend too much time on this forum intellectualizing (including me); which is fine since that is an important aspect too and perhaps all we can do here. However the point is there is a limit to which our efforts in this vein will be useful; post this there has to be real work on the ground.

The problem is not a lack of A meaningful Dharma Shastra but its spread.
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Post by dada »

# Sumeet

you wrote
"All that one needs to do is completely dilute political, economic & social influence of Islam on Indian muslims. That will totally Indianize Islam. It will be 7th option for Indian people to satisfy their religious craving just like other options. It will be up to an individual to take a certain path or convert to another w/o intimidation and interference from any supervising, organized body"

How ?

One effective way to do is to bring about a irreversible change in the very language in which the indoctrination of muslim minds is done.
destroy "urdu" by hook or by crook.

It is thru language that one acquires one's concepts , shapes one's outlook
towards all things in life or even our own enemies,competitors...
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Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote: I appreciate your view that a lot of this has to do with the "deep sense of abuse" that many Hindus feel their community has/is been subjected to....

However, not all Hindu view points are from this sense of persecution and abuse alone!
Not denying the presence of different views, but going one step further and suggesting a way of eliminating differences in view by addressing the particular grievance or requirement of each group that holds a particular view.

Medical analogy:

Patient is tired, short of breath and has a lump in the belly.

Reductionist examination reveals
a)uncontrolled diabetes,
b)mild heart failure from high blood pressure and
c) a hernia.

Treatment: control diabetes, control BP and heart failure and repair the hernia surgically. i.e three separate conditions leading to three separate sets of symptoms - each recognised individually and dealt with individually.

Hindus have many views:
a) dhimmi view
b) former dhimmi sense of hurt
c) renaissance Hindu
d) anything else?

If you look at the views of each of these groups

Group a) will not see anything as extremism and will see equalequalitis even with terrorism
group b) sees evil in Islam
group c) - you will have to say what solution will satisfy these people
group d) yet to be discovered

Each of these groups requires a different approach.

We have already spoken of how dhimmis need gradual lifting out of dhimmitude without suddenly awakening the anger of cognitive dissonance - which will shame them and make them hostile to you. If you can awaken them they will join group b) Hurt Hindus

Group b hurt Hindus is what I was referring to as needing their honor restored.

There may be other groups but unless I can define them I cannot have thought about what might be a way forward.
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Post by SwamyG »

Pulikeshi wrote:swamyG,

The very fact that atleast in certain forums such converstations about Islam and the future of Indian Muslims taking place means -
that Pakistan as an ideology is dead!
It might be dead as an ideology. But it continues to exist as a state. As Shashi Tharoor put it {paraphrasing} - 'other states have an army, in the case of Pakistan the army has a state'.
There must have been conversations of this nature before, during and after the birth of Pakistan. Now the difference is that all the earlier conversations have been validated by the inability of Pakistan to remain as a peaceful state.

Just let us complete the kriya karams of that entity, it will go some way in addressing the radicalization of Muslims in India.
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Post by Sumeet »

Bangalore engineer held for terror links
Bangalore: A suspected terrorist Mohammed Yahya Kammakutty, belonging to the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), has been arrested by the Bangalore Police.

The arrest was made by the a team of Corps of Detectives (CoD) of Bangalore Police on Thursday from Guruappanapalya on Bannerghatta Road in the city. The team was led by Deputy Inspector-General Alok Kumar.

But some of his associates managed to escape. :evil: :evil:

The 32-year-old suspect is a native of a village near Kozhikode in Kerala and had worked with General Electric (GE) Software and is said to be an electrical engineer.

Police say he had been living in Bangalore for the last eight years. He was, however, unemployed for the past few months after GE sacked him last year.

Yahya has now been taken to Hubli and will be produced in a court there.

Police also seized computer from his residence which has his bank account details and some other documents.

Before it was banned by the Union government in 2001, SIMI had an office in Guruappanapalya.

Several former SIMI activists in Bangalore, Gulbarga and Bijapur are also under the scanner.
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Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote: group c) - you will have to say what solution will satisfy these people
The five stages are:
  1. Denial -> This is where the Dhimmis are today
  2. Anger/Resentment -> Former Dhimmis with a sense of hurt
  3. Bargaining -> Hindus who seek a new equilibrium
  4. Depression -> What the bargainers seek may only be partially met
  5. Acceptance -> Finally, renaissance Hindus realize that they either make peace with or will have to break the system
We risk destabilizing India if a large number of Hindus are graduated into step 2 (Anger) in a very short period of time. Therefore, I believe it is important to move folks to the latter steps sooner.

In the last three steps, constitute the renaissance Hindus who will bargain either an acceptable solution with Islam or collectively come to an alternate political Hindu ideology after repeated attempts at bargaining and consequent depression. Eventually, a new equilibrium will be reached where in come acceptance of some facets of Islam and perhaps no acceptance may come about with the political ideology of Islamism.
While, I have an opinion on these proceedings, it is more pertinent to highlight the broad strokes here to illustrate my point.
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Post by Sumeet »

Sorry if posted earlier. Didn't know where else to post. Tells you how big of a moron some people are.


Asif betrays family, friends' trust
BANGALORE: By taking up jihad, terror suspect Mohammed Asif has let down several people who helped him achieve his dream of becoming a doctor. His younger brother, relatives, friends and organisations supported this intelligent youth in his endeavours.

Hailing from a family of goldsmiths, poverty was Asif’s biggest hindrance. He is the oldest of six sons of his parents in Raichur.

A meritorious student, he secured 7200th rank in the Common Entrance Test during 2002-2003 and could have chosen either engineering or medical course. He got a free seat in the MBBS course at the Karnataka Institute of Medical Sciences, Hubli, but couldn’t afford to pay the Rs 16,000 fee.

Deterred by the fee, he contemplated joining an engineering course. But his friends and relatives pooled in money and helped him join KIMS.

Initially, he rented a room at Ganeshpet in Hubli and shared it with two other students. He raised loans from the Muslim Education Trust, Abdul Fazal Enclave, Jamia Nagar, New Delhi and from the Karnataka Minorities Development Corporation (KMDC).

The trust gave him an interest-free loan of Rs 1,500 per month, while the KMDC paid him Rs 75,000 loan at a nominal interest.

Besides this, his younger brother working in Dubai sent him money. Before his arrest, Asif had received Rs 10,000 from his brother.

In 2004, he moved to room number 58 in Anand Hostel of the college, which he shared with two other students.

In the hostel, he and five others would assemble in Mirza Ahmed’s room (No. 22) and take part in prayers and discussions. Of the five, four were from Bijapur, and the other from Belgaum.

Around end 2003/ early 2004, he came in contact with Asadullah Abubaker, an ayurvedic medicine student of Ayurveda Mahavidyalaya, through lecturer Ilyas. Their friendship grew as both were very religious. In fact, Asif started staying with Asadullah, but did not vacate the hostel room.

Asif and Asaduallah’s life took a dramatic turn after they met Adnan alias Hafeez, a native of Bijapur, at Bangalore while processing their application to avail of loans from the Muslim Education Trust (the trust has a local office in Bangalore).

Adnan, an active leader of the banned Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), convinced Asif and Asadulalh to take up jihad. He narrated how Muslims had been victimized across the world, including Palestine and Gujarat.

The trio met frequently and took up recruitment and logistics gathering. Adnan took Asif to Madhya Pradesh in early 2007 and introduced him to the banned organisation’s national-level leaders.

In October 2007, Asif’s jihadi life took a dramatic turn after being introduced to Riyazuddin Nasir alias Mohammed Ghouse by Adnan.

Within four months, on January 30, 2008, Asif was behind bars on charges of terrorism. Currently, Asif and his associates Riyazuddin Nasir alias Mohammed Ghouse, Asadullah Abubaker and Allabaksh Yadwad are in police custody facing terrorism charges.
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Post by Rudranathh »

Sumeet wrote:Sorry if posted earlier. Didn't know where else to post. Tells you how big of a moron some people are.

Asif betrays family, friends' trust
Hailing from a family of goldsmiths, poverty was Asif’s biggest hindrance. He is the oldest of six sons of his parents in Raichur.
This is funny. How can a family working as goldsmiths be poor? They are renowned for being the richest families with CA's hired just to help them in lowering their tax payments.
A meritorious student, he secured 7200th rank in the Common Entrance Test during 2002-2003
They are calling him an meritorious student. Waah! A person who gets an 7200th rank in the CET can be called an below average student but surely not an meritorious one.
Initially, he rented a room at Ganeshpet in Hubli and shared it with two other students. He raised loans from the Muslim Education Trust, Abdul Fazal Enclave, Jamia Nagar, New Delhi and from the Karnataka Minorities Development Corporation (KMDC).
KMDC is fully financed by the karnataka governement. So this person who was enjoyng the kafir tax payers money wanted to kill and bomb the hands that they were providing him money for his education. Surely an blood sucker.
The trust gave him an interest-free loan of Rs 1,500 per month, while the KMDC paid him Rs 75,000 loan at a nominal interest.
If that much money had been given interest free to the farmers many lives would have been saved.
Asif and Asaduallah’s life took a dramatic turn after they met Adnan alias Hafeez, a native of Bijapur, at Bangalore while processing their application to avail of loans from the Muslim Education Trust (the trust has a local office in Bangalore).
Another recruiting centre of the terrorists.
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Post by svinayak »

http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-b ... mn82.htm[b]
India and her problem of Secularism[/b]
Today Secularism is the fashion in India. It is the "in" brand. It is the brand to give oneself, lest one be called "communal". Many Hindus who are born in Hindu families, who carry the seeds of their Sanatana Dharma in their blood and their consciousness, have become ardent and vocal secularists. This article is addressed to the Secular Hindus, and is an effort to engage their minds, in the hope that some of them may be open to a fresh evaluation.

First of all there are two kinds of Secular Hindus.

1. Type A - Those who think that all religions are equally valid – "Sarva Dharma Sama Bhava" kind.

2. Type B - Those who think that all religions are equally invalid – The Atheist, Anti-religious, Anti-Spiritual kind

Let us look at each one in turn. The first kind of (Type A) Secular does believe in religion, at least in his own Hindu religion, and values it. He believes in the dharmic values that the Hindu religion, inculcates in him, and he recognizes the place of Spirituality in human life. He may himself be a deeply devout, and spiritual person. He most likely goes to temples occasionally, performs some form of puja, bhajan or yoga or other devotional activity; he may even have studied the Bhagvad Gita or some other Hindu scriptures to an extent; But he has not done any serious study of the world's other religions. He has not done any deep research on the Bible or the Koran, and cannot distinguish clearly the major distinctions between them and his own Dharma. So he naively believes that all religions are the same; they lead to the same goal; they are all different paths to the same end. He may have even been told by some well meaning Gurus and Acharyas that this is indeed so. So having reached this "secular' position, he then proceeds to condemn as "Hindutva" and "Communalism" anyone who makes distinctions between the religions, and thereby raises a warning regarding the future of Hindu society.

The second kind of Secular (Type B) does not believe in Religion of any kind. He abhors and disdains them all equally and regards them as the superstitious by-product of humankind of a bygone era. He is modern, and does not need any religion, either his own or another's. Thus having begun his inquiry into the subject with this prejudice, he then proceeds to ignore all scriptural study altogether. His acquaintance with his religion is therefore very cursory, and he does not feel the need to study this any further. He identifies himself, with a rational and scientific view of the world, easily gets carried away with modern western scholarship, which proposes all kinds of new philosophies, (like Marxism, Communism, Capitalism, Materialism etc.) which he deems adequate for his purpose. Not only does he not study other religions, he doesn't even study his own. He most likely loathes "Swami's" and "Gurus" and avoids them. Because he is a Hindu by birth, he is compelled to profess that he does not practice it, he does not believe in it, and he goes out of his way to condemn his own religion . He is deeply ashamed of his own religion, and keeps criticizing it at every turn. A few of them also take to studying the Hindu religion, but specifically for the purpose of criticizing it – The intention is not to learn, but to condemn. So there are legions of scholars, who pick up topics such as Caste, Sati, Idol worship, Brahmins and heap volumes of criticism on their own religion of origin.

The Type A Secularist is someone we can call the Gandhian Secularist. Mahatma Gandhi deeply and sincerely believed in the possibility of unity amongst Hindus and Muslims in India. Whether we agree with him or not, this was his stand, and he brought the great strength of his spiritual and moral force to bear upon this possibility. He hoped and wished that he could forge a unity between Hindus and Muslims that would allow the two communities to co-exist peacefully in Independent India. Whatever Mahatma Gandhi was, he was not ignorant. He took very studied positions on almost all issues. He saw that India's Muslims were mostly Hindus in prior generations, perhaps long past, but nevertheless they carried the Hindu culture with them in some small measure. They had converted under the relentless pressure of Islamic rulers, and frequent threat of violence. But this was all long past. He saw that Hindus and Muslims were now cast together in this country, to weave a common destiny and they cannot be separated easily. He in fact may have been the one who created the slogan "Sarva Dharma Sama Bhava". This is an inclusive Secularism, that believes that we must treat all religions equally, all people equally regardless of their religion etc. Even today there are many Gurus and Acharyas who say this – they even quote a Rig Vedic verse called Ekam sat vipraha bahauda vadanti and apply this verse to prove that all "Dharma's" must be looked upon equally.

The Partition of India both on its left and right, (picture Bharat Mata with her two hands cut off) delivered Gandhian Secularism a decisive blow, and rendered the possibility of unity amongst Hindus and Muslims, as almost an utopian fantasy. The Partition was brought upon India, because the Muslim leadership decided that it was impossible for them to live in a Hindu majority India, and they needed their own Islamic State. The Hindus kept on saying that we can all be friends – Hindu-Muslim Bhai Bhai etc., and held out the hope that we can be one country. The Muslim leadership said – No; that is not possible. The matter is really simple – If in a relationship between a man and a woman, if the woman or the man decide that a relationship is no longer possible, then the relationship breaks down; it matters little whether the other person keeps saying "No, we can still be in a relationship". Similar is the case with Hindus and Muslims – Only the Hindus keep saying "all religions are the same; we can all live peacefully together "; The Muslims laugh at the naivety of the Hindus, and say – "No Islam is special and different. We can all live peacefully together but only if you convert to Islam first". So now we have unfriendly states on either side of India which have actively decimated the Hindu population within their respective countries, and are supportive of terrorists who have the most evil designs on India.

The Type B Secularist is someone we can call the Nehruvian Secularist. Jawaharlal Nehru believed that religion itself was irrelevant and somewhat backward and superstitious. With his western education and temperament, he was attracted to Karl Marx, Lenin, Stalin and the Russian experiment. These were all "Godless" and "Unspiritual" ideologies. It did not matter to Nehru, that the Communist experiment in Russia had resulted in the massacre of millions of people under the regime of Josef Stalin. He ignored that, (by what logic he justified this in his own mind remains to be discovered) and allied himself and our country closely with Russia and the Socialist way of life. Nehru thought that the primary ill of Indian society was its poverty and lack of development, and he committed himself energetically to India's modernization, albeit driven by the State. In doing this he and his people fashioned a Secular State out of India, which ignored its Hindu Dharma, its Dharmic institutions, and Dharmic education.

Nehruvian Secularism has also been dealt a mortal blow in more ways than one. Communism is dying all over the world – Only in India it seems to have some left over momentum. Socialism has given way to Capitalism all over the world; In 1991, in India, a Congress Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao and his Finance Minister Manmohan Singh presided over the reversal of the trajectory that Nehru had set for India. India is rapidly demonstrating that left alone, people develop themselves. Development need not be moderated and regulated by the State. Power when concentrated in the hands of a few, ultimately corrupts people – Indira Gandhi and her Emergency was a demonstration of that. But as much as she loved staying in power, even she could not cross the line as Joseph Stalin did – through dictatorship and murder on a vast scale. This can be attributed to the essential dharma of our land. Russian communism had no dharma at all – It was pure Adharma. Pakistan has no Dharma at all – It's leaders have no regard for its own constitution. They amend it left and right to suit their private needs. Most of their transitions of power have been through murder and bloodshed, which is an essentially Islamic tradition. (lets see current one)

But what is indeed strikingly common to both kinds of Secularists (both Type A and Type B) is that they don't apply themselves and study the major religions and scriptures of the world, nor the history of major civilizations. Because even a cursory study of the Bible and Islam, will reveal how violent they are towards unbelievers and kafirs . Every religion has to deal with the ethics of human behavior – both amongst the followers of their religion, as well as between the followers of their tradition and those who do not follow their tradition. Equality, Tolerance and commitment to Peace, is good not only for the believers, but also necessary between believers of a particular faith, and those who subscribe to a different faith. In this latter characteristic, Hinduism is vastly different and has an infinitely superior record compared to both Islam and Christianity. While Hinduism is inherently pluralistic, and it allows many traditions to co-exist peacefully, Christianity and Islam are very severe towards the non-believers. While Hinduism is inherently Dharmic towards all people independent of what they believe in, Christianity and Islam offer their protection and allegiance to you, only if you convert to their creed. They prescribe the worst form of violence towards the kafirs and unbelievers – And this is borne out both by their scripture as well as their history. It only takes a cursory study of their scripture and their history, to find the patterns and correlations emerging. Their history is consistent with their ideology as embedded in their scripture, and their scripture contains the kernels of their ambitions and conquests, in the past, present and future . Christianity and Islam are fundamentally organized to be in a state of permanent conflict with the world of non-believers and kafirs. Whatever rudimentary notion of Dharma they may have, when it comes to their interactions with unbelievers, they are 100% Adharmic, even Asuric.

Why do Hindus reach their "Secular" positions and conclusions without proper inquiry? This is what is called "Avichara Siddhi" – A conclusion reached without much thought or research. It is like a conclusion "The sun goes round the earth". Well it is obvious - We can see it go round and round, yet it takes some inquiry (Vichara) before we can say, No – The earth is spinning on its axis, and that merely creates the impression of the sun going around the earth. Why have Hindus become so lazy intellectually, that we will not apply ourselves to the proper study of these topics? Why do we jump to some conclusion first, without appropriate research and then keep repeating our position, ad nauseum? Why have we become mere sloganeers shouting ourselves hoarse with our position, which has not been properly thought out and formulated in the first place? Lastly in our hurry to embrace Secularism, we have thrown the baby out with the bath water, we have abandoned our Dharma altogether. Today, we find secularists everywhere – on TV, in the Radio, in the news magazines; in the universities; in politics. It has become our new creed. To falsify the Secular creed is to invite the worst form of counter attack and slander.

Today India is developing fast. Our economy is growing. A section of our society is becoming affluent. But corruption is also rampant in every walk of life. The politicians are leading the nation in being self serving and corrupt. The concept of Dharma, Ethical Values, a sense of Sacrifice and Service that Swami Vivekananda talked about has not permeated our public life. Will modernization solve all our problems? Is it sufficient to modernize without a corresponding effort to establish Dharma in the land? Corruption is Adharmic. Capitalism generates great wealth alright, but it distributes this wealth in a very uneven way. What are the rich of our land going to do with their riches? Will they use their riches in service of the poor? Capitalism is Adharmic too – in that it engenders no value system. What do the affluent do for their society – during their leisure? If we were to follow the inspiring example of the west – we know the answer. The great fruit of capitalism is mindless entertainment, endless pleasure seeking and non-stop shopping.

Can the task of caring for the poor be left in private hands, or do we socialize it and give it to our politicians? We need to resurrect Dharma into the center of our lives. How are we going to do it, if we keep on swearing by secularism? Hindu Dharma emphasized people's duties and responsibilities. Not their rights . Today, we have only a screaming group of casteists and castes, who are ever more shrilly demanding what is due to them i.e. their rights. There is no possibility of Dharma in this. A secular education does not guarantee an adequate appreciation of ethical values, duties, responsibilities and a deeply imbibed sense of discernment between right and wrong action. How do we give our children a matrix of moral values and norms, if we ignore our own Hindu Dharma in our secular schools and colleges? How do we inculcate in our next generation, a value for Dharma and Moksha which are indeed the unique civilizational characteristics of our Hindu society, if we don't even address these in our educational institutions? This is the unsolved problem of our time. We sowed seeds of "Godless" ideologies drawn from the west, and we are harvesting a rich bounty of corruption across the length and breadth of our land.

So, we appeal to our secular brothers and sisters – Please think first; study your own scripture first; then study the other's scripture; then study the history of all the religions; See the correlations and correspondences for yourself. Then let us see if you continue to be secular. You may discover that it is only in the comforting cocoons of ignorance, illiteracy and mindlessness that secularism can flourish. You may find that Secularism cannot stand even the most rudimentary intellectual scrutiny. But please do not defend your Secular value system on the foundation of your unwillingness to study these subjects; Please do not say – I won't read my scripture; I don't have time; I won't read history; I don't have time for that; I will not attempt to read the scriptures of other religions; I have even less time for that; But I know I am a secular Hindu; and I know I am right and all the rest of you are communal.

Kalyan Viswanathan
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Post by ShauryaT »

This is how we tackle, Islamism in India.
In his address to the National Development Council, the PM chose to take up the issue of devising "innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority are empowered to share equitably in the fruits of development". The PM’s remarks addressed all minority groups as he said, "These must have first claim on resources." BJP used references to Muslims to attack PM’s speech.
PM remark on Muslims stirs row
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Post by shiv »

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14609690
Bangalore techie provided shelter to terrorists: Police
Sunday, 24 February , 2008, 12:43
Last Updated: Sunday, 24 February , 2008, 12:48
Bangalore: An ongoing probe by the Corps of Detectives (CoD) into terror networks in parts of Karnataka has revealed that a software engineer arrested here recently had been providing technical support to extremists, police said.
Mohammad Yahya Kammakutty, who hails from Kozhikode in Kerala and was arrested on February 21, was actively involved with a fundamentalist outfit in his home state, they said.
Discuss: There’s no link between techies turning to terrorism and religion
An electrical engineering degree holder and former employee with GE, Yahya, joined the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) after he shifted to Bangalore eight years ago, the investigators found.
Yahya was transferring funds, weapons and other support to terrorists across the country, but sources from where he used to get them remained to be ascertained, police said.
The arrest of terror suspects like Yahya, Riyazuddin Naser, Asadullah Abubakkar and Mohammed Asif has led the police to believe that parts of Karnataka, including Bangalore, were home to "sleeper cells" run by terror groups.
Yahya had even provided shelter to some terrorists who were guided to him to receive money and weapons, police said.
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He was also arranging identity cards, ration cards and other documents to terrorists, investigations have revealed, police said.
However, police were yet to get evidence whether Yahya had plans to undertake terror activities in the state, including in Bangalore.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 808676.cms
Yahya SIMI's north-south go-between

BANGALORE: Yahya Iyash Kamkutty bridged the north-south divide when it came to activities of the banned Students' Islamic Movement of India.

Being employed in a well-paying job, he actively coordinated SIMI's activities in Bangalore with north Karnataka and other states.

Yahya has been kept in the custody of CoD (Corps of Detectives) police till March 6 for further interrogation. A resident of Mukkam in Kerala, Kamkutty moved to Bangalore after he got selected in the campus recruitment by Tata Infotech company in 1996 at his Regional Engineering College, Calicut.

In 1997, he went to Chennai for training and returned the same year. As he was an active member of SIMI, it did not take him much time to find SIMI members in Bangalore.

In 1999, he quit Tata Infotech and joined GE. He was busy for some time as he had to go to the US thrice during 2000 and 2001, the year SIMI was banned.

Over a period of time, Yahya came in contact with Adnan, one of the prominent SIMI leaders in south India. Adnan, a resident of Bijapur used to stay with his brother at Annasandrapalya in Bangalore.

Yahya's links to north Karnataka began after his introduction to Adnan. Yahya came in contact with the now arrested terror suspects Mohammed Asif, Asaduallah Abubaker, Shakeel Ahmed and Allabaksh, all active SIMI members, and Riyazuddin Nasir alias Mohammed Ghouse, a Pakistan trained Lashkar-e-Taiba activist. His network expanded after he attended the meetings organised by Adnan and his associates in north Karnataka in 2007.

During this time, Yahya also came in contact with several SIMI leaders from across the country, including Iqbal from Uttar Pradesh and Sibli from Kerala. Since he belongs to Kerala, considered as the hotbed of SIMI activities, police suspect he had several contacts there. Meanwhile, CoD sleuths are on the lookout for Yahya’s absconding associates in Bangalore.

From the recent arrests and the revelations of the six arrested accused, the investigators have stumbled upon the coordinated activities of SIMI in several states including Karnataka, Kerala, UP, MP, Maharashtra and Andhra. They have also unearthed the banned organisation's link with terror outfit LeT.
Another terror suspect held in Bangalore
BANGALORE: Another terror suspect and treasurer of the Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) Sayed Sameer was picked up in the city on Sunday.

Police were looking for Sameer after engineer Yahya Khan’s arrest. Sameer had managed to flee from his house in Gurrapanapalya in Tilaknagar. Sameer was picked up from the same area on Sunday evening.

Sameer, who is an aluminium contractor, is an associate of Yahya and one of the main accused in the Surat riots. He was living in Hulimavu on Bannerghatta Road but moved to Gurappanapalya after meeting Yahya.

On Sunday, police also picked up four youths from Tilaknagar, RT Nagar, Shivajinagar and Gurappanapalya, and are interrogating them. Police have not established any link between Yahya and these youths but they are said to be SIMI activists.

On Feb 21, the Corps of Detectives police had also seized Sameer’s laptop and other jehadi material from his house after Yahya showed them Sameer’s house.

Sameer, a Bangalorean and son of a ITI employee who passed away, came to Bangalore after he was bailed out a few years ago. A diploma holder from Bangalore, he was staying with his wife and child in Tilaknagar.

Sameer was arrested after the Surat riots and was in jail for sometime and came out on bail. Since then, he had been reporting at Mico Layout police station in Bangalore.

‘‘Even last month he had reported to the station. But after the arrest of Mohammed Ghouse and his associates, Sameer had not reported to the court on fear of being caught,’’ said a police official.

Police suspect that Sameer has information about the Hyderabad and Mumbai blasts as he was in touch with one of the accused in the Mumbai blasts Junaid, who was brought to Bangalore for narcoanalysis.

Junaid, during interrogation had stated that after the Mumbai blasts, he had taken shelter in his associate’s house in Gurrapanapalya. He had said that the associate was a software engineer with a reputed firm.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/26/stories ... 781000.htm
Bangalore resident held for ‘terror links’
Special Correspondent
Bangalore: The Corps of Detectives (CoD) has arrested a Bangalore resident Syed Sameer alias Sameer Sadaq (34) for his suspected terror links.
Sources in the CoD told The Hindu that Sameer, a diploma holder and businessman, is actively associated with the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI). He was an associate of the arrested software engineer Mohammed Yahya Kammakutty, who the police claim, is a top SIMI functionary. Sameer was arrested in Gurappanapalya from where Yahya was also picked up.
Raid in Surat
According to the sources, in 2004 the Gujarat police arrested Sameer for his association with the SIMI.
In early 2004, they raided a gathering of around 100 SIMI activists in Surat and arrested several of them. Around 10 of them were from Karnataka. The police said they seized jihadi material from them. Sameer and others, against whom a case is pending in Gujarat, frequently visit Surat to attend the hearings, the sources said.
After a terror network was busted by the Karnataka police recently, intelligence agencies had asked the Bangalore police to keep a tab on known SIMI activists such as Sameer. After Yahya was arrested, the police were on the lookout for his four accomplices, including Sameer.
The police suspect that Sameer attended the meetings organised by the SIMI in November on the outskirts of Hubli and the forests abutting Goa. Around 25 SIMI activists from Karnataka, Kerala and Uttar Pradesh attended them. A case has been registered in a Hubli police station and four people, including Yahya have been arrested.

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Rye
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Post by Rye »

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... cs/277332/

Why are Indian muslims pretending that a fatwa by a no-name mullah in the Aligarh Muslim Univ. excuses/explains/will prevent further terrorist attacks on India? Do such Indian muslims (who go around pretending that this fatwa is something other than a non-event) and their mullahs think that kafirs are a bunch of morons to buy such disingenuous horsedung called "fatwa against terrorism".

The only outcome of this Deobandi jihadi "fatwa against terror" is that, from now on, every time there is terrorist attack by a muslim in India, these AIMPLB and Deobandi mullahs can refer to this "fatwa" to loudly proclaim that all muslim terrorists are not good muslims --- and that is supposed to help the victims of islamic terror how?

Note the clever rhetoric:

[quote]
Noted Islamic scholar Saud Alam Qasmi, dean of Theology at the Aligarh Muslim University, says: “We fully endorse the Deoband fatwa against terrorism because there is not a single school of religious thought in Islam which endorses the killings of innocent persons in retaliation of any criminal act.â€
gandharva
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Post by gandharva »

[quote]“We fully endorse the Deoband fatwa against terrorism because there is not a single school of religious thought in Islam which endorses the killings of innocent persons in retaliation of any criminal act.â€
Apu
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Post by Apu »

BJP wary of Deoband's anti-terror call

TOI
NEW DELHI: The BJP has refused to buy the Deoband declaration on Monday calling terrorism un-Islamic. The party cautiously said the call would be welcome if put in practice.

"They said Islam does not permit terrorism. If it can be put in practice, it will be most welcome," BJP spokesman V K Malhotra told reporters.

He, however, added that Islamic terrorism is on the rise in the world. "It will be good if they can create awareness about this all over the country." He also said people, including medical and engineering students, have been caught in places such as West Bengal and Hyderabad for having terror links.

"People in the country are now getting into it. Earlier, external forces such as the ISI were fostering terrorism here," he said.
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