None of our business?
19 Mar 2008, 1714 hrs IST,Tarun Vijay
The most effectual means of preventing [the perversion of power into tyranny are] to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibits.
-- Thomas Jefferson.
[quote]Gradually an unprecedented streak undoing the constitutional spirit through executive orders is gaining ground in the corridors of power for the sake of immediate populism and political gain. This is not only against the egalitarian norms of inclusiveness and accommodation but is leading dangerously to further and bitter fragmentation of polity.
This is also supported (as a unintentional result) by peoples' inertia in asserting their rights and pushing for corrections in government policies. Except for the sponsored and hired crowds, there is hardly a visible spontaneous demonstration on issues affecting civil life. More than 17,000 farmers committed suicide in 2006 alone, but not a single district, leave aside a state showed its anger through any bandh or silent procession. Lethargy on the civil front is a sign of an imminent upheaval that erupts with a suddenness of a pouncing tiger. People feel hopeless and cheated; hence nothing shakes them or excites to rise and say a big no to the masters of the power games.
They used to do it; India has seen unprecedented movements and agitations in the past that authored a new course of public action and constitutional behavior changing the colour of politics forever.
We had mass leaders in political as well as non-political realms enjoying the peoples' unflinching trust. Now the “fast foodâ€
Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 6
Powerful Hindus had to be accomodated within the Mughal Empire otherwise they would become a threat to Mughal power! This is why Akbar created the mansabdari system....to tackle the Hindu elite, without the need to attack them in each succeeding generation.Clearing dust off Aurangzeb’s image
Submitted by Tarique on Tue, 03/18/2008 - 04:43.
* Indian Muslim
By Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah
(In this piece, Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah, President of Tamilnadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam (TMMK), counters claims by artist Francois Gautier about his exhibition on Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb held at Chennai.)
Further, we could not see an exhibit depicting two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb’s administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh who were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne?
Jaswant Singh and Jai Singh were already generals under Shah Jahan...they were not appointed by Aurangzeb. Jaswant actually fought against Aurangzeb at the Battle of Dharmat and the Battle of Khajwa. And in a letter the bigoted Aurangzeb described Jaswant as, "a wicked infidel who demolished mosques and built temples on their site."
It was after Jaswant Singh's death that Aurangzeb imposed the jaziya tax.
One of the greatest charges against Aurangzeb is of the demolition of Vishwanath Temple in Banaras (Varanasi). That was a fact, but Dr. Pande unravelled the reason for it. “While Aurangzeb was passing near Varanasi on his way to Bengal, the Hindu Rajas in his retinue requested that if the halt was made for a day, their Ranis may go to Varanasi, have a dip in the Ganges and pay their homage to Lord Vishwanath. Aurangzeb readily agreed.
“Army pickets were posted on the five mile route to Varanasi. The Ranis made journey on the palkis (palanquins). They took their dip in the Ganges and went to the Vishwanath Temple to pay their homage. After offering puja (worship) all the Ranis returned except one, the Maharani of Kutch. A thorough search was made of the temple precincts but the Rani was to be found nowhere. “When Aurangzeb came to know of this, he was very much enraged. He sent his senior officers to search for the Rani. Ultimately they found that statue of Ganesh which was fixed in the wall was a moveable one. When the statue was moved, they saw a flight of stairs that led to the basement. To their horror they found the missing Rani dishonoured and crying deprived of all her ornaments. The basement was just beneath Lord Vishwanath’s seat.â€
More on that wretch BN Pande, a Congress politician and not a historian, who died in New Delhi on June 1, 1998.
B. N. Pande's speech in the Rajya Sabha, made on 29 July 1977.
B. N. Pande's speech in the Rajya Sabha, made on 29 July 1977.
I have the honour to move the following resolution for the consideration of this House:
'This House is of the opinion that the main factor retarding cultural and emotional integration of the Indian people is the communal interpretation of the medieval Indian history and its distortion by the British historians, while India was under British rule, portraying the Hindus and the Muslims as being divided into two warring camps with little in common between them, and that this distortion paved the way for the emergence of the two-nation theory, and therefore recommends that the government should take immediate steps for the re-orientation of the study of Medieval Indian History
[quote]Army pickets were posted on the five mile route to Varanasi. The Ranis made journey on the palkis (palanquins). They took their dip in the Ganges and went to the Vishwanath Temple to pay their homage. After offering puja (worship) all the Ranis returned except one, the Maharani of Kutch. A thorough search was made of the temple precincts but the Rani was to be found nowhere. “When Aurangzeb came to know of this, he was very much enraged. He sent his senior officers to search for the Rani. Ultimately they found that statue of Ganesh which was fixed in the wall was a moveable one. When the statue was moved, they saw a flight of stairs that led to the basement. To their horror they found the missing Rani dishonoured and crying deprived of all her ornaments. The basement was just beneath Lord Vishwanath’s seat.â€
Let me pose a question to this fictional story:
(1) If a Mullah had done t he same, would Auranga get the Mosque demolished and made a temple in its place?
(2) Is this the level of intelligence of Mughals? Raze the whole 3000 year old temple for the fault of one man? Is it not possible to catch the culprit rather raze this invaluable temple? Mind you, this is the holiest of the holiest place for the Hindus. No less than a Mecca/Medina.
(3) What if a Hindu King find the Imam of Mecca dishonoring a Muslim women. Can he then proceed to destroy the Mecca mosque and have a temple installed in its place?
(4) Given Islamic record of destroying other religions place of worship (Jews, Christians, Budhists, Siikhs & Pagans have ALL had their places of worship destroyed) can we really beleive this story? Was there a dishonoring women in all the cases?
(1) If a Mullah had done t he same, would Auranga get the Mosque demolished and made a temple in its place?
(2) Is this the level of intelligence of Mughals? Raze the whole 3000 year old temple for the fault of one man? Is it not possible to catch the culprit rather raze this invaluable temple? Mind you, this is the holiest of the holiest place for the Hindus. No less than a Mecca/Medina.
(3) What if a Hindu King find the Imam of Mecca dishonoring a Muslim women. Can he then proceed to destroy the Mecca mosque and have a temple installed in its place?
(4) Given Islamic record of destroying other religions place of worship (Jews, Christians, Budhists, Siikhs & Pagans have ALL had their places of worship destroyed) can we really beleive this story? Was there a dishonoring women in all the cases?
In fact the Islamists and their leftist supporters are mistaken.
We do not regard Aurangzeb alone as communal or bigoted; he is part of the same pattern which has been produced by the Islamists from the time that backward ideology appeared on Indian soil.
The exceptional figure is Akbar, who towards the middle of his reign became open-minded (removed jaziya, removed the pilgrimage tax, etc.)...but before that even he was as barbaric and fanatical as other Muslim rulers.
Akbar's massacre of 30,000 Hindu civilians at Chittor, after the fort had fallen in 1568 is well known. Many of these were inhabitants of the city-fort, but most others were villagers from the surrounding regions, who had taken shelter in the fort on the advance of the Mughal army.
One year before this, in 1567, the Mughal Emperor was at Thanesar (Haryana). At a holy tank in that town, different groups of sadhus had assembled to bathe as part of their religious duty. A fight broke out between two leading groups over who would have precedence in bathing in the holy tank.
As the fight turned bloody, the Mughals gathered to watch; Akbar himself came to investigate the scene from his camp. As one group of sadhus began to prevail, Akbar commanded his soldiers to intervene on the side of the other group! So Mughal soldiers stepped into the middle of the poor sadhus and turned their swords, axes, and arrows on them. See the picture as portrayed in the Akbarnama:
The Muslim scholars praised Akbar's action because according to them the true Islamic king must forget his responsiblity for imposing order in the kingdom; instead following the holy task of looking on jubilantly as his infidel subjects fight and kill each other.
He should even assist them in reducing the number of infidels, so that on whichever side a man falls, Islam is the gainer!
But later in his reign when Akbar became more rational and began respecting other religions, these same Muslim scholars bitterly criticised him, pronounced him a kaffir, and encouraged Muslims everywhere to rebel against him. Fortunately these rebellions were crushed by Akbar's Hindu allies.
We do not regard Aurangzeb alone as communal or bigoted; he is part of the same pattern which has been produced by the Islamists from the time that backward ideology appeared on Indian soil.
The exceptional figure is Akbar, who towards the middle of his reign became open-minded (removed jaziya, removed the pilgrimage tax, etc.)...but before that even he was as barbaric and fanatical as other Muslim rulers.
Akbar's massacre of 30,000 Hindu civilians at Chittor, after the fort had fallen in 1568 is well known. Many of these were inhabitants of the city-fort, but most others were villagers from the surrounding regions, who had taken shelter in the fort on the advance of the Mughal army.
One year before this, in 1567, the Mughal Emperor was at Thanesar (Haryana). At a holy tank in that town, different groups of sadhus had assembled to bathe as part of their religious duty. A fight broke out between two leading groups over who would have precedence in bathing in the holy tank.
As the fight turned bloody, the Mughals gathered to watch; Akbar himself came to investigate the scene from his camp. As one group of sadhus began to prevail, Akbar commanded his soldiers to intervene on the side of the other group! So Mughal soldiers stepped into the middle of the poor sadhus and turned their swords, axes, and arrows on them. See the picture as portrayed in the Akbarnama:
The Muslim scholars praised Akbar's action because according to them the true Islamic king must forget his responsiblity for imposing order in the kingdom; instead following the holy task of looking on jubilantly as his infidel subjects fight and kill each other.
He should even assist them in reducing the number of infidels, so that on whichever side a man falls, Islam is the gainer!
But later in his reign when Akbar became more rational and began respecting other religions, these same Muslim scholars bitterly criticised him, pronounced him a kaffir, and encouraged Muslims everywhere to rebel against him. Fortunately these rebellions were crushed by Akbar's Hindu allies.
Aree baba instead of jumping with two feet, you still end up jumping with one foot to conclusionsRye wrote:SwamyG, do you disagree with the contention that Azeb is a central figure that is linked to the wrong kind of Islam practised by some Indians? (the same regressive, violent behaviour that is applauded by the unwashed masses in Pakistan. ) This is about Tackling Islamism in India. Are you saying that a public exhibition of scholarly work of history and facts about Azeb was closed down should not be in this thread? Do you like the whole "free speech" thing you enjoy? Shouldn't that be part of the problem that we have with islamic extremism in India. If not, why not?
This was done by the fellow who represents the largest "islamic" party in TN, and he is creating this racket. And the effing cretins in the Madras Police Dept. vandalize an exhibition and arrest some old lady volunteers. You don't think there is anything wrong with the behaviour of the TN govt. which authorized this police behaviour?
Did I ever say Nawab's posturing was correct? Did I ever say the police behavior was great? Man, why do you always jump up and down like this? All I said was we need to keep the two threads different - one about sharing info on islamism and the other about tackling Isalmism.If you think the Azeb issue is about tackling then fine. We might disagree on that minor point. Since you raise questions I will give my 2 cents worth:
1. I have no love for any of the Mughal rulers.
2. While I am for free speech and all; the fact that Nawab and some Muslims complained about an exhibition based on facts troubles and angers me.
3. The reaction of TN govt and police is disgusting to say the least - again expected.
4. There is no right or wrong Islam. There is just one Islam which is wrong. It can be right, only if they keep their religion to themselves. Citing 'freedom of expression' if they keep protesting at the drop of a hat then it just further shows how moronic they can be. It is like the 'puli varadhu kadhai' - if they protest for any genuine reasons it is likely to be ignored. {sometimes your frothing resembles muslims reactions. you start shooting from the hip at the slightest disagreement}
I believe the original Islamism thread is one in which we should discuss the current happenings; even dissection of the events; and news sharing. This thread should be left purely for brainstorming.
SwamyG, was not ranting at you or anything. IMO, The islamism thread is about global islamism -- this one is about the Indian variant of the problem which has quite a bit of history in the subcontinent -- the appropriateness of Azeb to this thread is obvious if we choose look at the present state of affairs as a continuation of the past.
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sanjaychoudhry
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Lot of scholars (basically Hindu haters) have been running around pulling theories and "facts" out of their arse. When you dig deeper and follow up on thier "evidence" you quickly realise that it is an industry of bluff and deciet which thrives on the fact that average readers will not be able to examine their evidence and hence some of their ideas will stick with public. There are many such theories without evidence going around like AIT, tribals as indigenous people, Aurangzeb as liberal, Hindus as killer of Buddhists, etc. None of these has any evidence whatsoever. On even a cursory examination, you find that these people have been lying deliberately and spreading myths and canards to establish some political purpose.So, this is where the story comes from: an unnamed friend of an unnamed acquaintance of Sitaramayya knew of a manuscript, but he took the details of it with him in his grave. This hearsay in the third degree is the "document" on which secularist journalists and historians base their "evidence" of Aurangzeb's fair and secularist disposition. This is how they go about "exploding the myth" of Islamic iconoclasm.
In Indian IPC, there is a section that deals with deliberately spreading rumours with an intent to create social strife or unrest. These people should be charged under it if they are unable to provide the "evidence" on which they have based their theories. If Germany can jail people for denying the holocaust, there is no reason why spreaders of Aryan Invasion Theory shouldn't be jailed because of the north-south civil war they are aiming to trigger. Otherwise, they should be ordered to bring forward their evidence that will be judged by a panel of unbiased international historians.
From Indianmuslims.info
link
[quote]
Reflections on Deoband’s Anti-Terrorism Convention
Submitted by Mudassir Rizwan on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 08:59.
* Indian Muslim
By Yoginder Sikand, EPW
The crucial issues surrounding the increasing Islamophobia across the world and in India, raised by the Dar-ul-Ulum Deoband’s recent anti-terrorism convention, were not reflected in the media reports, nor were its shortcomings critically appraised. The non-Muslim media focused solely on the “terrorism is anti-Islamicâ€
link
[quote]
Reflections on Deoband’s Anti-Terrorism Convention
Submitted by Mudassir Rizwan on Wed, 03/26/2008 - 08:59.
* Indian Muslim
By Yoginder Sikand, EPW
The crucial issues surrounding the increasing Islamophobia across the world and in India, raised by the Dar-ul-Ulum Deoband’s recent anti-terrorism convention, were not reflected in the media reports, nor were its shortcomings critically appraised. The non-Muslim media focused solely on the “terrorism is anti-Islamicâ€
Yoginder Sikand writes regularly for Outlook India -- www.outlookindia.com has archives of his older columns.
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G Subramaniam
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Yoginder Sikand is a sabrangi
His articles regularly appear in sabrang and other islamo-commie media
In every corner of the world, the Muslim is testing the patience of the infidel. The Muslim thinks that the infidel's silence is a weakness. May be the infidel is weak. May be the infidel has very high tolerance and thus very patient. May be the infidel is looking how far the Muslim is gonna push his luck.
The dam or reservoir in the world has unlimited capacity. Oneday, if the anger is allowed to fester, it is going to overflow or break the walls of the dam.
The Muslim in his/her delusion of superiority perhaps has forgotten that when this infidel anger boils over every where (it is going to happen), he will find out that despite his billion sized Ummah, compared to the infidels the billion Ummah will be a minority.
The Muslim is asking for bloodbath. Thus far most infidels have been shy and had not taken the bait. When the anger boils over, the fury of the infidel anger the billion member Ummah CANNOT put out. This fury the Mussalman is incessantly asking for. He is going to get it.
Avram[/quote]
The dam or reservoir in the world has unlimited capacity. Oneday, if the anger is allowed to fester, it is going to overflow or break the walls of the dam.
The Muslim in his/her delusion of superiority perhaps has forgotten that when this infidel anger boils over every where (it is going to happen), he will find out that despite his billion sized Ummah, compared to the infidels the billion Ummah will be a minority.
The Muslim is asking for bloodbath. Thus far most infidels have been shy and had not taken the bait. When the anger boils over, the fury of the infidel anger the billion member Ummah CANNOT put out. This fury the Mussalman is incessantly asking for. He is going to get it.
Avram[/quote]
The simpler explanation, IMO, is that unlike the mussalmaan, the kafir has a lot to lose. The kafir has a life. He has education, employment, innovation, productivity, great art and literature to treasure, to look forward to. More importantly, he values the good intangibles of life - liberty, love, laughter, respect, tolerance - for their own sake.asprinzl wrote:In every corner of the world, the Muslim is testing the patience of the infidel. The Muslim thinks that the infidel's silence is a weakness. May be the infidel is weak. May be the infidel has very high tolerance and thus very patient. May be the infidel is looking how far the Muslim is gonna push his luck.
So he is naturally not as inclined to take on the momeen - rhetoric for rhetoric, sword for gun. Unlike the latter, he has something to lose. Something valuable. And unless those things are expressly threatened with no recourse to a 'peaceful' resolution, expect more accommodation, denial and such stuff from the kafir side of the world.
JMTs etc.
Deccan Chronicle, 28 March 2008
[quote]
Muslim orthodoxy needs reform
By Balbir K. Punj
As Pakistan begins to warm up in the glow of the rebirth of democracy through a popular movement, there appears to be signs of some hopeful changes in the Muslim world as such. The popularly elected government in Islamabad could make radical changes for the better because it is a coalition of the two major political parties, PPP and PML-N, who enjoy an overwhelming majority in the National Assembly. The new Prime Minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, a longtime Bhutto loyalist, has within minutes of his swearing-in freed sacked Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry and other deposed judges from house arrest.
International attention in Pakistan would now be on how the new government is going to tackle religious extremism and the terrorist breeding grounds. Both political parties are sworn to restrict the President’s powers to dismiss the elected government and the Prime Minister has ordered a reshuffle in the Army. The people’s representatives know that it was the overarching presence of the Army in Pakistan’s politics that repeatedly led to instability of earlier civilian governments.
Unless they tackle the economic clout of the armed forces in the business of running Pakistan, the Army’s political clout cannot be curbed. Reports emanating from the United States have revealed how deep the roots of the Army officers are in a whole range of businesses in Pakistan. Even recently, US congressional reports reveal how the Pakistani Army misused anti-terrorism campaign funds from the Americans for the enrichment of its own officers and finance the arms that the military acquired.
Also, the nexus between the Army and the religious extremism that it used against the political class and the terrorist movements that the Army had sponsored earlier and tutored, still remains as another power arm of the military class against the politicians. If the political class has to make the strategic move to end both the military’s dominance and savagery of extremism, the government has to move now, when its support base among the people of Pakistan is at its peak.
In the courage the people of Pakistan showed in going to the polling booths despite the threats of the terrorists and extremists against the elections, one hopes that the first nail has been driven into the coffin of terrorism. The whole spectrum of extremist and jihadi parties has been defeated, even in the terror-dominated Frontier province. The terrorist strikes against election rallies, including the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, may have intensified the popular revulsion against jihadi-ism.
The fratricidal war within Islam between Sunni and Shia groups fuelled by terrorist weapons of suicide bombers might have added to this revulsion. On the other hand, these feelings might be just a passing phase and terror might once again attract young Pakistanis. But analysts going through the recent voice tapes of Al Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Yousuf Al-Zawahari asking Muslim youth to join the business of terrorism feel that a turning point in the support base of Al Qaeda has arrived, with fewer and fewer young Muslims responding to the call for jihad. The Al Qaeda leaders were specifically asking for recruits for the Iraq terror strikes — significantly, the intensity of these strikes have been decreasing in the last several weeks.
As Left leaders take up the extremist Muslims’ call for an anti-Israeli foreign policy by the UPA government, we find one courageous voice of sanity within the community. One leading imam has set foot in Israel responding to the invitation of Jewish leaders and met Israeli leaders, including that country’s President. He is Maulana Jameel Illyasi, who is the cleric in charge of an important mosque on New Delhi’s Kasturba Gandhi Marg. His position as chief of the apex body of imams in India, AIAI, gives this bold act significance much beyond the person.
Illyasi made the response to the Israeli and Jewish invitation despite the strong opposition of other Muslim leaders to this step. “The Muslim world does not want to recognise the Jewish state. What is the use of living in denial?â€
[quote]
Muslim orthodoxy needs reform
By Balbir K. Punj
As Pakistan begins to warm up in the glow of the rebirth of democracy through a popular movement, there appears to be signs of some hopeful changes in the Muslim world as such. The popularly elected government in Islamabad could make radical changes for the better because it is a coalition of the two major political parties, PPP and PML-N, who enjoy an overwhelming majority in the National Assembly. The new Prime Minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, a longtime Bhutto loyalist, has within minutes of his swearing-in freed sacked Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry and other deposed judges from house arrest.
International attention in Pakistan would now be on how the new government is going to tackle religious extremism and the terrorist breeding grounds. Both political parties are sworn to restrict the President’s powers to dismiss the elected government and the Prime Minister has ordered a reshuffle in the Army. The people’s representatives know that it was the overarching presence of the Army in Pakistan’s politics that repeatedly led to instability of earlier civilian governments.
Unless they tackle the economic clout of the armed forces in the business of running Pakistan, the Army’s political clout cannot be curbed. Reports emanating from the United States have revealed how deep the roots of the Army officers are in a whole range of businesses in Pakistan. Even recently, US congressional reports reveal how the Pakistani Army misused anti-terrorism campaign funds from the Americans for the enrichment of its own officers and finance the arms that the military acquired.
Also, the nexus between the Army and the religious extremism that it used against the political class and the terrorist movements that the Army had sponsored earlier and tutored, still remains as another power arm of the military class against the politicians. If the political class has to make the strategic move to end both the military’s dominance and savagery of extremism, the government has to move now, when its support base among the people of Pakistan is at its peak.
In the courage the people of Pakistan showed in going to the polling booths despite the threats of the terrorists and extremists against the elections, one hopes that the first nail has been driven into the coffin of terrorism. The whole spectrum of extremist and jihadi parties has been defeated, even in the terror-dominated Frontier province. The terrorist strikes against election rallies, including the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, may have intensified the popular revulsion against jihadi-ism.
The fratricidal war within Islam between Sunni and Shia groups fuelled by terrorist weapons of suicide bombers might have added to this revulsion. On the other hand, these feelings might be just a passing phase and terror might once again attract young Pakistanis. But analysts going through the recent voice tapes of Al Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Yousuf Al-Zawahari asking Muslim youth to join the business of terrorism feel that a turning point in the support base of Al Qaeda has arrived, with fewer and fewer young Muslims responding to the call for jihad. The Al Qaeda leaders were specifically asking for recruits for the Iraq terror strikes — significantly, the intensity of these strikes have been decreasing in the last several weeks.
As Left leaders take up the extremist Muslims’ call for an anti-Israeli foreign policy by the UPA government, we find one courageous voice of sanity within the community. One leading imam has set foot in Israel responding to the invitation of Jewish leaders and met Israeli leaders, including that country’s President. He is Maulana Jameel Illyasi, who is the cleric in charge of an important mosque on New Delhi’s Kasturba Gandhi Marg. His position as chief of the apex body of imams in India, AIAI, gives this bold act significance much beyond the person.
Illyasi made the response to the Israeli and Jewish invitation despite the strong opposition of other Muslim leaders to this step. “The Muslim world does not want to recognise the Jewish state. What is the use of living in denial?â€
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Stan_Savljevic
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That was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. I'm sure there are some good Hindi films from the '90s that could gotten that same message across.Stan_Savljevic wrote:Cross posted from Islamism, Geert Wilders movie Fitna
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
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pradeepe
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- Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?
The intent is not to drag you down to their level. Its to usurp. Its roots are in the original lie that being an adherent automatically entitles you to anything the non-believer has.Sumeet wrote:vsudhir you are absolutely right. These people as a whole don't have a vision for future. And they will be only happy to drag us down to their level.
While a dharmic path just attempts to guide one in pursuits wheter material or spiritual, theirs is a promise of booty.
The slippery slope begins when the sustaining pitch is that a non-believer is damned anyway. It doesnt take much for an aam abdul to conclude that he might as well aid that process by parting the non-believer with what he holds valuable. And of course the "non-believer is damned" credo doesnt just belong to the abduls. The flaw began with the attempt to hold control over the path to salvation.
JMTPs..
Aurangazeb was trying to bring about a theocratic Sunni state in India. His attacks and conquest of the Deccani Shia states of Bijapur and Golkonda and the numerous efforts to return the hated poll tax etc were steps in that direction. However the 100 years of respite that came about from 1568 gave Northern India a chance to preserve their heritage and fightback. Azeb realised that Hindusthan had to be Islamised or Islam would leave India. He wasnt content with the sufi lyrics guys doing the slow conversion. He was a man with a mission.
There is a theory which some people hold that Aurangzeb actually did more for Hinduism than Dara Shikoh would have done. By attacking directly, he rallied the different forces (Sikhs, Jatts, Rajputs, Marathas, Telegu, etc.) as opposed to Dara who would have put a twist on Sufism to convert the masses. I believe this is one of the reasons Guru Nanak was against Sufism and Sufis (plus a historical analysis serves to note that Sufis and other Muslims probably aided the foreign forces coming into the sub-continent notably Mohammed Gauri, Ghazni, and everybody else who wasn't homegrown).ramana wrote:He wasnt content with the sufi lyrics guys doing the slow conversion. He was a man with a mission.
I don't personally believe this, but its a similar situation now with Christian missionaries - whose doing more harm for the long run (for Hindu culture) - terrorists or missionaries? I don't want to belittle those who have died mind you, not by a longshot.
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MuthuswamyM
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First ever symposium on jihad in India
Symposium: India’s Standoff With Jihad
By Frontpagemag.com
FrontPageMagazine.com | Friday, March 28, 2008
Can India counter the Islamic challenge on its own? A distinguished panel joins Frontpage Symposium today to discuss this issue. Our guests are:
Praveen Swami, Associate Editor of Frontline magazine and The Hindu newspaper. He writes on security issues. His most recent book, India, Pakistan and the Secret Jihad examines the history of Islamist terror groups in Jammu and Kashmir from 1947 onwards.
Moorthy Muthuswamy, an expert on terrorism in India. He grew up in India, where he had firsthand experience with political Islam and jihad. He moved to America in 1984 to pursue graduate studies. In 1992, he received a doctorate in nuclear physics from Stony Brook University, New York. Since 1999 he has extensively published ideas on neutralizing political Islam's terror war as it is imposed on unbelievers. He is the author of the new book, The Art of War on Terror: Triumphing over Political Islam and the Axis of Jihad.
Lawrence Prabhakar, an Associate Professor of Political Science at Madras Christian College, Chennai, India and a Visiting Fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. Dr. Prabhakar specializes in academic and policy research in issues of nuclear weapons and Asian Security, Asymmetric Conflict, Maritime Security and grand strategy of India, China and United States.
and
Dr. Ajai Sahni, the Founding Member and Executive Director of the Institute for Conflict Management (ICM) and the Editor of the South Asia Intelligence Review.
He is also the Executive Director of both the South Asia Terrorism Portal and of Faultlines: Writings on Conflict & Resolution, ICM’s quarterly journal. He has researched and written extensively on issues relating to conflict, politics and development in South Asia. He jointly edited (with K.P.S. Gill) Terror & Containment: Perspectives on India’s Internal Security and The Global Threat of Terror: Ideological, Material and Political Linkages.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... B88E021202
Excerpts:
Studies of Muslim insurgencies tell us that they are preceded by decades of jihad build-up whereby resident Muslim minority populations are systematically indoctrinated, increasingly driven away from the mainstream, fed resentment toward the majority and finally, terror cells are established in the communities to mount armed insurgencies.
No one any longer disputes the presence of terror cells in Muslim communities across India. These pose an imminent strategic threat to India. The bad news is these cells can only grow in size (the underlying populations are already sympathetic to the cause, thanks to decades of indoctrination), power and significance, continuing to spread their tentacles among the broader population of Indian Muslims. The fact that terror cells in India may be limited in number (as pointed by Swami and Sahni) at the present time is no consolation.
The ideological opportunity to neutralize this jihadist build-up is long gone (especially under a poorly governing democracy) and the Indian state is now limited to small-scale operations to neutralize newly detected ones. But Indian agencies limited or no penetration into terrorist groups. In fact, it is far from clear whether the Indians are even aware of the full scope of terrorist penetration or their plans.
This is one war the Indian state is losing.
At this rate, India is staring at the inevitability of mini Kashmir-like insurgencies based in its many Muslim communities. This could kill the Indian economy and make India highly destabilized, opening the way for other destabilizing groups such as the Maoist ones, already entrenched across India, to become even more potent.
Symposium: India’s Standoff With Jihad
By Frontpagemag.com
FrontPageMagazine.com | Friday, March 28, 2008
Can India counter the Islamic challenge on its own? A distinguished panel joins Frontpage Symposium today to discuss this issue. Our guests are:
Praveen Swami, Associate Editor of Frontline magazine and The Hindu newspaper. He writes on security issues. His most recent book, India, Pakistan and the Secret Jihad examines the history of Islamist terror groups in Jammu and Kashmir from 1947 onwards.
Moorthy Muthuswamy, an expert on terrorism in India. He grew up in India, where he had firsthand experience with political Islam and jihad. He moved to America in 1984 to pursue graduate studies. In 1992, he received a doctorate in nuclear physics from Stony Brook University, New York. Since 1999 he has extensively published ideas on neutralizing political Islam's terror war as it is imposed on unbelievers. He is the author of the new book, The Art of War on Terror: Triumphing over Political Islam and the Axis of Jihad.
Lawrence Prabhakar, an Associate Professor of Political Science at Madras Christian College, Chennai, India and a Visiting Fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. Dr. Prabhakar specializes in academic and policy research in issues of nuclear weapons and Asian Security, Asymmetric Conflict, Maritime Security and grand strategy of India, China and United States.
and
Dr. Ajai Sahni, the Founding Member and Executive Director of the Institute for Conflict Management (ICM) and the Editor of the South Asia Intelligence Review.
He is also the Executive Director of both the South Asia Terrorism Portal and of Faultlines: Writings on Conflict & Resolution, ICM’s quarterly journal. He has researched and written extensively on issues relating to conflict, politics and development in South Asia. He jointly edited (with K.P.S. Gill) Terror & Containment: Perspectives on India’s Internal Security and The Global Threat of Terror: Ideological, Material and Political Linkages.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... B88E021202
Excerpts:
Studies of Muslim insurgencies tell us that they are preceded by decades of jihad build-up whereby resident Muslim minority populations are systematically indoctrinated, increasingly driven away from the mainstream, fed resentment toward the majority and finally, terror cells are established in the communities to mount armed insurgencies.
No one any longer disputes the presence of terror cells in Muslim communities across India. These pose an imminent strategic threat to India. The bad news is these cells can only grow in size (the underlying populations are already sympathetic to the cause, thanks to decades of indoctrination), power and significance, continuing to spread their tentacles among the broader population of Indian Muslims. The fact that terror cells in India may be limited in number (as pointed by Swami and Sahni) at the present time is no consolation.
The ideological opportunity to neutralize this jihadist build-up is long gone (especially under a poorly governing democracy) and the Indian state is now limited to small-scale operations to neutralize newly detected ones. But Indian agencies limited or no penetration into terrorist groups. In fact, it is far from clear whether the Indians are even aware of the full scope of terrorist penetration or their plans.
This is one war the Indian state is losing.
At this rate, India is staring at the inevitability of mini Kashmir-like insurgencies based in its many Muslim communities. This could kill the Indian economy and make India highly destabilized, opening the way for other destabilizing groups such as the Maoist ones, already entrenched across India, to become even more potent.
Top SIMI leadership caught
Last Updated: 11:24 IST(28/3/2008)
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In one of the biggest terrorist catches in recent times, the Indore police on Thursday picked up almost the entire leadership of the banned Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) from a hideout in Indore.
Nagori, who has been underground since September 2002 (when SIMI was banned), is suspected to be involved in a series of terror attacks across the country.Those arrested included Safdar Nagori, SIMI’s national general secretary and one of India’s most wanted terror masterminds who is believed to have planned the 2006 Mumbai train blasts that killed 187 people.
Twelve of his close associates, including chiefs of several state units, were also arrested. Police said the SIMI leadership, with close links to the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba terror group, had gathered for a meeting called by Nagori.
Nagori, who has been underground since September 2002 (when SIMI was banned), is suspected to be involved in a series of terror attacks across the country.
The Maharashtra police wants him for his suspected role in plotting along with LeT operatives the 11/7 blasts and the August 25, 2003 twin blasts at Gateway of India and Zaveri Bazaar that killed 53 people.
Thirteen of the 11/7 blasts accused, who have since been nabbed, have said that Nagori was a part of several meetings that were held in Mumbai to execute the blasts.
A senior Intelligence Bureau official said that Nagori “was with the 13 arrested blasts’ accused, and nearly 13 other Pakistani Lashkar members who had been sent by its India chief Azam Cheema, who were involved in the blastsâ€
Last Updated: 11:24 IST(28/3/2008)
IM on Yahoo
Add to Del.icio.us
In one of the biggest terrorist catches in recent times, the Indore police on Thursday picked up almost the entire leadership of the banned Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) from a hideout in Indore.
Nagori, who has been underground since September 2002 (when SIMI was banned), is suspected to be involved in a series of terror attacks across the country.Those arrested included Safdar Nagori, SIMI’s national general secretary and one of India’s most wanted terror masterminds who is believed to have planned the 2006 Mumbai train blasts that killed 187 people.
Twelve of his close associates, including chiefs of several state units, were also arrested. Police said the SIMI leadership, with close links to the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba terror group, had gathered for a meeting called by Nagori.
Nagori, who has been underground since September 2002 (when SIMI was banned), is suspected to be involved in a series of terror attacks across the country.
The Maharashtra police wants him for his suspected role in plotting along with LeT operatives the 11/7 blasts and the August 25, 2003 twin blasts at Gateway of India and Zaveri Bazaar that killed 53 people.
Thirteen of the 11/7 blasts accused, who have since been nabbed, have said that Nagori was a part of several meetings that were held in Mumbai to execute the blasts.
A senior Intelligence Bureau official said that Nagori “was with the 13 arrested blasts’ accused, and nearly 13 other Pakistani Lashkar members who had been sent by its India chief Azam Cheema, who were involved in the blastsâ€
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 904263.cms
SIMI leadership arrested
INDORE: The All India General Secretary of Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), Safdar Nagori, has been arrested by the Special Task Force (STF) of the Madhya Pradesh Police along with ten members of the banned student organisation.
(Watch: SIMI chief arrested from Indore)
SIMI's southern zone chief Qibli was among those arrested.
The SIMI activists are being interrogated for further leads and some arms also have been seized from the spot of the arrests.
Police sources said security agencies had been trailing Nagori for a while and managed to track down the SIMI men, following a tip-off from intelligence agencies.
The crackdown against SIMI comes just a week after Minister of State for Home, Sriprakash Jaiswal told the Lok Sabha that the banned outfit and its associates were planning serial blasts in the country and the Centre has extended its ban imposed on SIMI for another two years.
Before his arrest, Nagori had been named in a First Information Report (FIR) for Unlawful Activities, registered at the New Friends Colony Police station in South Delhi and was declared a proclaimed offender in the case and had been absconding since September 27, 2001.
Nagori is alleged to have established links with the operatives of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's external intelligence agency, and other Islamist fundamentalist leaders in a bid to revive SIMI cadres under the umbrella of a different outfit.
Also
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Mar ... 759783.asp
13 SIMI leaders arrested
Indore, pti:
The crackdown by Madhya Pradesh Police, along with Central security agencies, began in and around Indore and Dhar district on Wednesday night.
In a major drive against outlawed Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), 13 of its top leaders, including one wanted by Karnataka and Mumbai police, were arrested here and a large cache of weapons seized from them.
The crackdown by Madhya Pradesh Police, along with Central security agencies, began in and around Indore and Dhar district on Wednesday night.
Among the prominent SIMI leaders arrested were Shibly Peedicaal Abdul, wanted in connection with Mumbai train serial blasts, former SIMI chief Safdar Nagori and his brother Kamruddin Nagori, chief of the outfit’s Andhra Pradesh operations, and Hafiz of Karnataka.
Police sources said intelligence agencies had been keeping a tab on their movement for quite sometime before they were arrested.
Shibly is considered a prize catch as he is alleged to be part of the conclave which had met in Ujjain ahead of the Mumbai serial blasts that left over 180 people dead and hundred others injured on July 11, 2006.
Police recovered weapons, money and some documents from them.
Describing the operation as a “big achievementâ€
SIMI leadership arrested
INDORE: The All India General Secretary of Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), Safdar Nagori, has been arrested by the Special Task Force (STF) of the Madhya Pradesh Police along with ten members of the banned student organisation.
(Watch: SIMI chief arrested from Indore)
SIMI's southern zone chief Qibli was among those arrested.
The SIMI activists are being interrogated for further leads and some arms also have been seized from the spot of the arrests.
Police sources said security agencies had been trailing Nagori for a while and managed to track down the SIMI men, following a tip-off from intelligence agencies.
The crackdown against SIMI comes just a week after Minister of State for Home, Sriprakash Jaiswal told the Lok Sabha that the banned outfit and its associates were planning serial blasts in the country and the Centre has extended its ban imposed on SIMI for another two years.
Before his arrest, Nagori had been named in a First Information Report (FIR) for Unlawful Activities, registered at the New Friends Colony Police station in South Delhi and was declared a proclaimed offender in the case and had been absconding since September 27, 2001.
Nagori is alleged to have established links with the operatives of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's external intelligence agency, and other Islamist fundamentalist leaders in a bid to revive SIMI cadres under the umbrella of a different outfit.
Also
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Mar ... 759783.asp
13 SIMI leaders arrested
Indore, pti:
The crackdown by Madhya Pradesh Police, along with Central security agencies, began in and around Indore and Dhar district on Wednesday night.
In a major drive against outlawed Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), 13 of its top leaders, including one wanted by Karnataka and Mumbai police, were arrested here and a large cache of weapons seized from them.
The crackdown by Madhya Pradesh Police, along with Central security agencies, began in and around Indore and Dhar district on Wednesday night.
Among the prominent SIMI leaders arrested were Shibly Peedicaal Abdul, wanted in connection with Mumbai train serial blasts, former SIMI chief Safdar Nagori and his brother Kamruddin Nagori, chief of the outfit’s Andhra Pradesh operations, and Hafiz of Karnataka.
Police sources said intelligence agencies had been keeping a tab on their movement for quite sometime before they were arrested.
Shibly is considered a prize catch as he is alleged to be part of the conclave which had met in Ujjain ahead of the Mumbai serial blasts that left over 180 people dead and hundred others injured on July 11, 2006.
Police recovered weapons, money and some documents from them.
Describing the operation as a “big achievementâ€
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Mahendra
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Lashkar takes over D-Company
Lashkar takes over D-Company
MUMBAI: 'D-Company' is now officially part of the Lashkar-e-Toiba's terror network, with Pakistan's notorious Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) getting Dawood Ibrahim to merge his gang with the fundamentalist terror organisation as part of a gameplan to crank up its anti-India campaign.
Sources in Indian agencies tracking ISI's moves confirmed the coming together of the two outfits and the danger that it poses to India.
"The underworld gang and the Lashkar jihadis have been knocked into a single entity and this has serious implications for India's internal security," a senior intelligence official told TOI on Thursday.
ISI's links with D-Company are old, going back to 1993 when Pakistan's external intelligence agency used Dawood and his henchmen to execute the March 12 terror attack on Mumbai in what marked the first instance anywhere of serial bombings. (TOI was the first to report the detention of Dawood, Chhota Shakeel and Tiger Memon by Pakistani authorities).
There has since been a shift in the dynamics of ISI-Dawood equations, reducing D-Company from being a useful ally to a group of individuals dependent on ISI to escape international law agencies.
Following the Mumbai blasts, Dawood along with his accomplices Chhota Shakeel and Tiger Memon fled to Pakistan. Pakistan has since shielded them from India and the new anti-terrorism sensitivities post-9/11 which saw Dawood being branded a global terrorist by the US.
But the hospitality has a tag attached to it: complete dependence for survival on ISI, which does not mind displaying its leverage vis-a-vis the once ruthless gang.
The merger will, inevitably, transform the character of Dawood's gang, which did not display any communal tendency before the serial bombings aimed against members of a particular community.
In fact, many of their business partners were non-Muslims like Raj Shetty. Chhota Rajan was also a senior member of the gang before splitting in protest against the serial blasts triggered by Dawood, Shakeel and the Memons.
"The serial blasts were essentially a retaliation for the January 1993 communal riots. But now there is a qualitative change with D-Company becoming part of a jihadi organisation like the LeT. Earlier, this gang's members were not religiously indoctrinated, but now they are. The motivation now is not money, but religion," a senior official said.
The joining of ranks with Lashkar, one of the most dangerous terrorist outfits which treats "liberation" of large tracts of India from "Hindu domination" as its religious obligation, can help ISI to further its subversive agenda.
Stints with Lashkar camps can morph Dawood's band of urban gangsters into well-armed and jihad-driven terrorists.
On the other hand, Lashkar benefits immensely from collaboration with D-Company which continues to attract recruits and has acquired financial muscle by venturing into mainstream commercial enterprises without letting go of its original money spinner, smuggling.
Quote by Keshav
Here is a wikipedia page on order of Chisti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisti
Moinudeen Chisti (most of it are lies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moinuddin_Chishti
The Sufi Idealogy is simple and straight forward.
Once people have been defeated and converted make them passive by
taking some features of their culture (which are not harmful to the overall propagation of Islam) and institutionalizing them as "Sufi Islam". Case in point is Qawalli, visit to mazaar, in India while Poetry writing in Persia. I am sure many others cultures have their own similar type of Sufian Islamic traits., which they can trace back to their original culture.
Then in some point.. the Arabians jump in telling them that look Music is Bad, Art is Bad and only language worth learning is Arabic. So!! Sunni Islam is devoid of any spiritualism as per Indian sense. In my opinion Indian Sufi poets (Bulleh Shah, Waris Shah, Farid, Kabir, etc) were very very very heavily influenced by the Indian Desi Bhakti momemt!! in fact they liked it so much that they wanted to be like them. Thus they got some sense of "Indian spiritualism" in Sufis. and thus Indians like Sufis.
Thus you have
Bulleh Shah writing poetry against Mullahs.
Waris Shah in his Heer Ranjha making his hero Ranjha a disciple of a Hindu Yogi.
Farid going into Jungles like Sadhus to find God.
Kabir's Dohas we are all familiar with.
It is a known fact that Moinudeen Chisti of Ajmer came with Ghauri into India and headed straight for Ajmer (The capital of Prithviraj Chauhan), he claims that he saw Mohammad in his dream that told him to head straight for Ajmer(instead of Delhi where Ghauri was headed). These type of facts are not taught in any Indian schools (state or country level). It is the same "Sufi" Chisti to whom all Indian and naPakistani muslims look too.plus a historical analysis serves to note that Sufis and other Muslims probably aided the foreign forces coming into the sub-continent notably Mohammed Gauri, Ghazni, and everybody else who wasn't homegrown
Here is a wikipedia page on order of Chisti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisti
Moinudeen Chisti (most of it are lies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moinuddin_Chishti
The Sufi Idealogy is simple and straight forward.
Once people have been defeated and converted make them passive by
taking some features of their culture (which are not harmful to the overall propagation of Islam) and institutionalizing them as "Sufi Islam". Case in point is Qawalli, visit to mazaar, in India while Poetry writing in Persia. I am sure many others cultures have their own similar type of Sufian Islamic traits., which they can trace back to their original culture.
Then in some point.. the Arabians jump in telling them that look Music is Bad, Art is Bad and only language worth learning is Arabic. So!! Sunni Islam is devoid of any spiritualism as per Indian sense. In my opinion Indian Sufi poets (Bulleh Shah, Waris Shah, Farid, Kabir, etc) were very very very heavily influenced by the Indian Desi Bhakti momemt!! in fact they liked it so much that they wanted to be like them. Thus they got some sense of "Indian spiritualism" in Sufis. and thus Indians like Sufis.
Thus you have
Bulleh Shah writing poetry against Mullahs.
Waris Shah in his Heer Ranjha making his hero Ranjha a disciple of a Hindu Yogi.
Farid going into Jungles like Sadhus to find God.
Kabir's Dohas we are all familiar with.
SBajwa:SBajwa wrote:It is a known fact that Moinudeen Chisti of Ajmer came with Ghauri into India and headed straight for Ajmer (The capital of Prithviraj Chauhan), he claims that he saw Mohammad in his dream that told him to head straight for Ajmer(instead of Delhi where Ghauri was headed). These type of facts are not taught in any Indian schools (state or country level). It is the same "Sufi" Chisti to whom all Indian and naPakistani muslims look too.
I am actually curious about this Chisti "Sufi". I have been meaning to ask you earlier. Thanks for giving me this opportunity.
What is it about Mohiuddin Chisti that is wrong? I understand he came with Ghauri, an invader, and that is a huge negative. What else?
I have been planning a trip to Ajmer to the Chisti shrine. But if I find out some dirt then I will not go.
You mentioned Kabir & Farid as Sufies, but the funny thing is that in their extensive NOT ONCE do they say anything about Mohammad (PBUH). I am not sure of Bhulley Shah. Did he praise PBUH?
The Sufi movement evolved during the Turkic phase of Islam. The Sufis were a traveling band of mullahs adapting to the Turkic culture of song and dance. THey were not aloof as the Arabic mullahs. Sometime in 12th century the Sufis acknowledged the Sunni was as the right way and were allowed to go about their business. The Naqshbandis were the most prominent in India and middle east. In the movie Jodha Akbar those guys doing the lite version of the whirl are Naqshbandis. They have that wierd headgear which became the fez in Turkey and was mark of advancement among sub-contiental Muslims.
So I guess Chisti was one of them.
So I guess Chisti was one of them.
Yes. The dance is a Naqshbandi form of expressing their devotion. The Brits didnt understand what made them do the dance and called them whirling dervishes during their encounter in Sudan. The Ottomon Empire's backbone was the Naqshbandi Sufis who were attached as spiritual counsellors to the janisarry regiments. Bernard Lewis has a good description in some of his books.
The whirling dance was/is used to induce a trance, a different state of consciousness..
This is out there with using drugs to induce trances. Also recall pneumae used by the greek oracles.
Some people just whirl their heads to induce a trance.
Kabir was Vedanti, as his poetry is filled with Vedantic terminology and imagery. He uses mostly sanskrit or sanskrit derived words in his poetry. Connection with sufism was incidental, and not very prominent.
This is out there with using drugs to induce trances. Also recall pneumae used by the greek oracles.
Some people just whirl their heads to induce a trance.
Kabir was Vedanti, as his poetry is filled with Vedantic terminology and imagery. He uses mostly sanskrit or sanskrit derived words in his poetry. Connection with sufism was incidental, and not very prominent.
This is slightly OT, but I do not agree with the above description of trance, which is a mental state. Inducing a trance via physical exhaustion may be the goal in all this whirling or rigourous activity-- a "trance" seems to be the ability to empty one's mind of all thoughts, including the last remnant thought that says "have I stopped thinking?". There are other ways to induce such mental states -- various religions have this notion of repeating a specific phrase, japam, or "hail mary" as a means of getting the mind to drop down to "absolute zero".
JMTs
JMTs
He converted the defeated people. He picked up the local prevailing customs, twisted them and told people that "Islam is like this only"., so people converted easily.What is it about Mohiuddin Chisti that is wrong?
He created lots of fictionaly stories to mystify people.
followers of Arabian type of Islam(sunni) do not "pray at Mazaars" it is only in India and Pakistan.
Lots of mystic mythological stuff about Sufis is out there.
For example there was a story that Akbar walked to the Mazar of Moinudeen Chisti at ajmer to get a Son (Jahangir) thus now people all over India do the same.
Another sufi named Sarmad (was from Armenia) was beheaded by Aurunzeb and people say that his beheaded head talked the whole quran or something ashaming Aurungzeb. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmad
All of these Sufis (North Indian one's) were in contact with each other.
For example the Bakhtiar Kaki (Delhi Nizamudeen one) was a disciple of Baba Farid of Shakarganj (whose verses about love and unity are included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib just like Kabir). Moinudeen Chisti, Bakhtiar Kaki and Faridudeen Shakarganj all existed in same era. They implanted the seed of Islam in India.
Moinudeen Chisti at Ajmer.
Farid at Pakpattan (close to Lahore) and at Faridkot (now a distrct in India).
Kaki at Delhi.
Muslims in India think that their ancestors picked islam because of these guys. but they came into India along the baggage trains of various invaders employed by them.
Rye,
"Trance" is just a shortening of the phrase "Transcendental state". It doesn't necessarily imply a silenced mind. A samadhi is a trance, but not all trances are samadhi. A trance can stand for any altered state of consciousness not normally encountered.
Mantra-japa is the most common way to induce rhythmic state of consciousness which helps in suppressing any extraneous disturbances, and maintaining a steady rhythmic flow of consciousness. The rhythmic state thus induced doesn't have to be complete mental-silence. Mantra moves through vaikhari, madhyama to pashyantI stages . Complete silence is a stage when the rhythmic conscious state induced by the mantra subsides into a deep silence.
The whirling could induce trance in various ways. Not merely by physical exhaustion. Whirling sets fluids in the inner ear semicircular canals in motion. Those semicircular canals are responsible for our sense of directional orientation. Thats why after a bout of whirling we feel out of balance. Also the normal blood supply to the brain is altered due to strong whirling. All these can aid in inducing an altered conscious state.
"Trance" is just a shortening of the phrase "Transcendental state". It doesn't necessarily imply a silenced mind. A samadhi is a trance, but not all trances are samadhi. A trance can stand for any altered state of consciousness not normally encountered.
Mantra-japa is the most common way to induce rhythmic state of consciousness which helps in suppressing any extraneous disturbances, and maintaining a steady rhythmic flow of consciousness. The rhythmic state thus induced doesn't have to be complete mental-silence. Mantra moves through vaikhari, madhyama to pashyantI stages . Complete silence is a stage when the rhythmic conscious state induced by the mantra subsides into a deep silence.
The whirling could induce trance in various ways. Not merely by physical exhaustion. Whirling sets fluids in the inner ear semicircular canals in motion. Those semicircular canals are responsible for our sense of directional orientation. Thats why after a bout of whirling we feel out of balance. Also the normal blood supply to the brain is altered due to strong whirling. All these can aid in inducing an altered conscious state.
Last edited by satyarthi on 28 Mar 2008 22:11, edited 3 times in total.
This is not specific to Chisti but holds in general to any Sufi.What is it about Mohiuddin Chisti that is wrong? I understand he came with Ghauri, an invader, and that is a huge negative. What else?
MOST SUFIS WERE HARD-HEARTED FANATICS
Many Hindus have been misled, mostly by their own soft-headed scholars, to cherish the fond belief that the Sufis were spiritual seekers, and that unlike the Mullahs, they loved Hindu religious lore and liked their Hindu neighbours. The Chishtiyya Sufis in particular have been chosen for such fulsome praise. The orthodox among the Muslims protest that the Sufis are being slandered. But the Hindus remain convinced that they themselves know better. Professor Aziz Ahmad is a renowned scholar of Islam in India. He clinches the matter in the following words: “In Indian sufism anti-Hindu polemics began with Muin al-din Chishti. Early Sufis in the Punjab and early Chishtis devoted themselves to the task of conversion on a large scale. Missionary activity slowed down under Nizam al-din Auliya, not because of any new concept of eclecticism, but because he held that the Hindus were generally excluded from grace and could not be easily converted to Islam unless they had the opportunity to be in the company of the Muslim saints for considerable time.â€
Last edited by gandharva on 28 Mar 2008 21:54, edited 1 time in total.
Check this out. This is what sufis says about these guys Article is about Bakhtiar Kaki now known as "Hazrat Nizamudeen" and there is even a railway station named after him in Delhi.
http://www.soofie.org.za/memorial/qutub_saheb.html
"Through the great efforts of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) was planted in the fertile soil of India a seed of light and truth, nourished by the eternal truths of Islam and Sufism. This seed in turn was tended by his successors until, eventually, it grew to become a huge tree whose blessed shade overspread the whole of India and the lands beyond. The first of these successors, known as the Big Five, was the khalifa of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi), Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki Bakhtiyar (rahmatullahi alaihi). It fell to him to consolidate the work of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) and strive to expand his teachings to the rest of India.
Popularly known as Qutb Saheb, Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) was born 569 A.H. in Awash in Transoxonia to pious parents. Whilst still in his cradle he lost his father and was raised by his mother who arranged his Islamic internal and external education. Even during this young age, he used to perform mujahedas, or strivings in Allah's path, along with his lessons. At the age of 17, while travelling to Isphahan to become the mureed of Hazrat Mahmoud Isfahan (rahmatullahi alaihi), he met Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) and, entranced by his spiritual beauty, became his mureed instead. After a few years in the company of his murshid, he set off on travels that would take him all over the Near East. During his journeys, he came across many great sufis and witnessed many wonderful sights.
Once he saw a boa constrictor on a tree poised to attack on a sleeping man when a scorpion came forward and stung the snake to death. But as Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) approached the man, thinking that he must be a great wali, he caught the smell of strong alcohol. Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) was greatly surprised that such a sinful man should be the recipient of such favour from Allah, but at that moment he heard the divine voice saying, "If We reserve our favours for the holy and the pious only, who will look after the sinners?"
-------- This story implies that the defeated converted people are sinners and thus they are also being looked after "God" despite not converting.
When Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) arrived in Multan in India as the guest of Hazrat Bahauddin Suharwardi (rahmatullahi alaihi), the city was attacked by the Mughals and the governor approached him, begging for assistance. Through his du'a the invaders were repulsed.
Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) rejoined Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) for his journey to India and remained with him in the early years of his settlement in Ajmer. Then, however, he was sent by his murshid to Delhi to set up a khanqah there.
It is a measure of the awesome respect in which Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) was held that as he approached the city, Sultan Shamsuddin, king of India came out to meet him. This just and pious king later became his mureed and used to wait on Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) twice a week in order to receive his spiritual blessings. After the death of Delhi's Shaykh-ul-Islam, the sultan wished to appoint Khwaja Qutbudeen (rahmatullahi alaihi) to the post, but the saint flatly refused, and the post was granted instead to Najmudeen Sughra, one of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi)'s fellow peers. This man held a bitter jealousy towards Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) because of his great popularity among both rich and poor.
------ Check this story out.....
Once he attempted to defame Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) by paying a pregnant prostitute to accuse him of being the father of her unborn child. Taken aback by this audacious accusation, Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) out of shock turned towards Ajmer and sought the help of his murshid.
To the wonderment of all, Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi), hearing the cry of his beloved disciple, transported himself to the garden where the drama was occurring and caused the unborn child to revoke his mother's lie.
In order to appease his mureed Najmudeen as well as the wishes of Khwaja Qutbudeen (rahmatullahi alaihi), who did not wish to be away from his beloved murshid, Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) then ordered Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) to return with him to Ajmer. However, as word of their departure spread, a vast multitude gathered on the streets begging Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) to stay.
Indeed, he was so loved by the people of Delhi that they used to take the dust in which he had trodden and apply it to their eyes. Faced with this, Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) rescinded his order, and Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) remained Delhi's spiritual preceptor until his last breath.
However, forty days before the death of his murshid he was summoned to Ajmer. There he received the khilafa-e-azam of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) and was given wardship over the sacred musalla, sandals and staff of the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam) which had been passed down through the Chishtia silsila for generations. He was told, "I entrust you to God. I have done my duty as you murshid in bringing you to this stage of perfection."
Thus spiritually charged, he returned to Delhi and began his mission with renewed vigour. Sultan Shamsuddin has gone down in history as one of the wisest and most just of India's rulers due in great part to the love and lessons he received from Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi). His mujahedas were incredibly rigorous; he became a hafiz at a very late age, and used to recite the Qur'an twice daily. Hazrat Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) used to perform 95 rakats of nafil salaat over and above his ordinary salaat, and before sleeping each night used to send 3000 durood upon the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam).
------- This story probably to lure the hindus saying that look Muslim saints are also "Brahmcharis".
During the first three nights of his marriage he was unable to keep up this durood, and he received a visitation from the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam) asking him why he had stopped. So overcome with remorse was he that he offered his wife a divorce out of repentance and thereafter renounced all worldly things. For 20 years he did not sleep at night, neither touch his back to the floor for rest. He used to remain in muraaqaba or mystical communion with Allah, for the entire day, regaining consciousness only for salaat and if someone came to visit him.
To such he would deliver sermons on leading a pious and god-fearing life. Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) used to stress the Shariah very strongly, stating that even if one was in a state of ecstasy, one should not transgress these laws.
Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) left twenty-seven khulafah to carry on his work before his premature death, foremost of whom was Hazrat Baba Faridudeen Gang-e- Shakar. Khwaja Qutbudeen (rahmatullahi alaihi) was very fond of Sama and qawwali, and used to host such gatherings at his khanqah.
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http://www.soofie.org.za/memorial/qutub_saheb.html
"Through the great efforts of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) was planted in the fertile soil of India a seed of light and truth, nourished by the eternal truths of Islam and Sufism. This seed in turn was tended by his successors until, eventually, it grew to become a huge tree whose blessed shade overspread the whole of India and the lands beyond. The first of these successors, known as the Big Five, was the khalifa of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi), Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki Bakhtiyar (rahmatullahi alaihi). It fell to him to consolidate the work of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) and strive to expand his teachings to the rest of India.
Popularly known as Qutb Saheb, Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) was born 569 A.H. in Awash in Transoxonia to pious parents. Whilst still in his cradle he lost his father and was raised by his mother who arranged his Islamic internal and external education. Even during this young age, he used to perform mujahedas, or strivings in Allah's path, along with his lessons. At the age of 17, while travelling to Isphahan to become the mureed of Hazrat Mahmoud Isfahan (rahmatullahi alaihi), he met Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) and, entranced by his spiritual beauty, became his mureed instead. After a few years in the company of his murshid, he set off on travels that would take him all over the Near East. During his journeys, he came across many great sufis and witnessed many wonderful sights.
Once he saw a boa constrictor on a tree poised to attack on a sleeping man when a scorpion came forward and stung the snake to death. But as Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) approached the man, thinking that he must be a great wali, he caught the smell of strong alcohol. Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) was greatly surprised that such a sinful man should be the recipient of such favour from Allah, but at that moment he heard the divine voice saying, "If We reserve our favours for the holy and the pious only, who will look after the sinners?"
-------- This story implies that the defeated converted people are sinners and thus they are also being looked after "God" despite not converting.
When Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) arrived in Multan in India as the guest of Hazrat Bahauddin Suharwardi (rahmatullahi alaihi), the city was attacked by the Mughals and the governor approached him, begging for assistance. Through his du'a the invaders were repulsed.
Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) rejoined Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) for his journey to India and remained with him in the early years of his settlement in Ajmer. Then, however, he was sent by his murshid to Delhi to set up a khanqah there.
It is a measure of the awesome respect in which Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) was held that as he approached the city, Sultan Shamsuddin, king of India came out to meet him. This just and pious king later became his mureed and used to wait on Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) twice a week in order to receive his spiritual blessings. After the death of Delhi's Shaykh-ul-Islam, the sultan wished to appoint Khwaja Qutbudeen (rahmatullahi alaihi) to the post, but the saint flatly refused, and the post was granted instead to Najmudeen Sughra, one of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi)'s fellow peers. This man held a bitter jealousy towards Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) because of his great popularity among both rich and poor.
------ Check this story out.....
Once he attempted to defame Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) by paying a pregnant prostitute to accuse him of being the father of her unborn child. Taken aback by this audacious accusation, Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) out of shock turned towards Ajmer and sought the help of his murshid.
To the wonderment of all, Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi), hearing the cry of his beloved disciple, transported himself to the garden where the drama was occurring and caused the unborn child to revoke his mother's lie.
In order to appease his mureed Najmudeen as well as the wishes of Khwaja Qutbudeen (rahmatullahi alaihi), who did not wish to be away from his beloved murshid, Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) then ordered Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) to return with him to Ajmer. However, as word of their departure spread, a vast multitude gathered on the streets begging Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) to stay.
Indeed, he was so loved by the people of Delhi that they used to take the dust in which he had trodden and apply it to their eyes. Faced with this, Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) rescinded his order, and Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) remained Delhi's spiritual preceptor until his last breath.
However, forty days before the death of his murshid he was summoned to Ajmer. There he received the khilafa-e-azam of Khwaja Moinudeen Chishti (rahmatullahi alaihi) and was given wardship over the sacred musalla, sandals and staff of the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam) which had been passed down through the Chishtia silsila for generations. He was told, "I entrust you to God. I have done my duty as you murshid in bringing you to this stage of perfection."
Thus spiritually charged, he returned to Delhi and began his mission with renewed vigour. Sultan Shamsuddin has gone down in history as one of the wisest and most just of India's rulers due in great part to the love and lessons he received from Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi). His mujahedas were incredibly rigorous; he became a hafiz at a very late age, and used to recite the Qur'an twice daily. Hazrat Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) used to perform 95 rakats of nafil salaat over and above his ordinary salaat, and before sleeping each night used to send 3000 durood upon the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam).
------- This story probably to lure the hindus saying that look Muslim saints are also "Brahmcharis".
During the first three nights of his marriage he was unable to keep up this durood, and he received a visitation from the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam) asking him why he had stopped. So overcome with remorse was he that he offered his wife a divorce out of repentance and thereafter renounced all worldly things. For 20 years he did not sleep at night, neither touch his back to the floor for rest. He used to remain in muraaqaba or mystical communion with Allah, for the entire day, regaining consciousness only for salaat and if someone came to visit him.
To such he would deliver sermons on leading a pious and god-fearing life. Qutb Saheb (rahmatullahi alaihi) used to stress the Shariah very strongly, stating that even if one was in a state of ecstasy, one should not transgress these laws.
Khwaja Qutbudeen Kaki (rahmatullahi alaihi) left twenty-seven khulafah to carry on his work before his premature death, foremost of whom was Hazrat Baba Faridudeen Gang-e- Shakar. Khwaja Qutbudeen (rahmatullahi alaihi) was very fond of Sama and qawwali, and used to host such gatherings at his khanqah.
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What do you think of it?