Tibet Watch- 2008-Part 6

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 18 Apr 2008 12:22

That is the impact of Buddhism on Indian mental makeup.


Buddhism has screwed Tibetans too who till 800 AD used to be ferocious fighters. When the entire society turned toward Buddhism, it became incapable of defending itself. Buddhism is good if kept limited to the individual realm. When the power structure of a society is infected by its pacifism, the decline starts. Hinduism recognises this and that is why a large chunk of population -- Kshatriyas -- does nothing but specialises in war to defend the society.

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Postby Rye » 18 Apr 2008 12:27

Umm...the Shaolin monks were not Jains.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 18 Apr 2008 12:41

Rye wrote:Umm...the Shaolin monks were not Jains.


The Buddhist monks invented unarmed combat precisely because Buddhism forbids carrying of arms. Shaolin temple was raided regularly by Chinese emperor and it was destroyed and rebuilt many times. The Shaolin monks developed unarmed combat essentially for self-defence with the basic knowledg and yoga principles taught to them by an Indian monk from Andhra, Bodhi Dharma.

How many Nalanda monks gave kung-fu kicks to Bhaktiyar Khalji? They were slaughtered by the thousands and the monastry was burnt to a cinder, but none of the monks took up the sword.

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Postby Rye » 18 Apr 2008 12:53

The only lesson all this teaches us as a nation is "be armed and prepared"..anything else is hot air.

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 13:44

Rye wrote:The only lesson all this teaches us as a nation is "be armed and prepared"..anything else is hot air.

Be armed with 1MT and be prepared :)

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Postby rohitvats » 18 Apr 2008 13:50

Buddhism has screwed Tibetans too who till 800 AD used to be ferocious fighters. When the entire society turned toward Buddhism, it became incapable of defending itself. Buddhism is good if kept limited to the individual realm. When the power structure of a society is infected by its pacifism, the decline starts. Hinduism recognises this and that is why a large chunk of population -- Kshatriyas -- does nothing but specialises in war to defend the society.


sanjaychoudhry-How can you make such sweeping statements? How is one's religion related to his martial abilities? you do forget the Khampa led rebellion which was as fierce a reistance as can be. What happened to Buddism theory there? And if some is willing to die for the sake of his religion or suffer pain for the sake of it, it is his personal call and shows the strength of his faith. Where does the "screwing " part come into it?[/b]

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Postby derkonig » 18 Apr 2008 16:30

Rohit,
Have a look at the religious demographics esp. the % of buddhists in all those countries where buddhism was practised widely before muslim invasions.
Buddhism was wide spread in "South Asia" & SE Asia.
But once the invasions happened, buddhists & buddhism was simply anhilliated. The reason for this decimation was the inherent meeknesss & penchant to look the other way while the house is on fire, something rather unique to buddhism.In that aspect, buddha & buddhism is adharmic as they promote inaction & meekness when one needs to stand up & fight for ones dharma, culture & civilization.

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Postby niran » 18 Apr 2008 18:23

Japanese temple refuses to host Olympic torch relay

A major Japanese Buddhist temple withdrew Friday from a plan to host the Beijing Olympics torch relay, citing safety concerns and sympathy among its monks and worshippers for Tibetan protesters facing a Chinese crackdown.

"Zenkoji is a Buddhist temple


"The principle of the Olympic charter is to overcome the differences of race, religion, gender and ideology, but the current situation has raised a question about it."


Question: when Temple officials can see through the charade, why can't
others?

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Postby ramana » 18 Apr 2008 21:35

Blaming Buddhism is an excuse. The Muslim takeover happened because the 'idea of nationhood' was weak in those countries. Most of them did not understand the nature of the threat of the Islamic horde and how it converst lambs into jackals where ever the conquest and conversion happens. By blaming Buddhism its blaming the victim. Enough of this tilting at windmills.

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Postby bala » 18 Apr 2008 23:02

This thread is not about Hinduism vs Buddhism; can we take this topic elsewhere.

Also Bodhidharma the founder of Zen buddhism and Kung Fu was the 3rd child of a Pallava King.

Look who's picture is venerated...

Image

Meanwhile, about time Buddhist nations rallied for the Tibetian cause..

Japan urges China to improve Tibet situation

Japan's Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda told Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi that Beijing should start talks with Tibetans and be more open about its recent crackdown on anti-government rioting and protests in Tibet, according to a Japanese Foreign Ministry statement.


Thailand warns against disruption of Olympic torch run

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 18 Apr 2008 23:34

Most of them did not understand the nature of the threat of the Islamic horde and how it converst lambs into jackals where ever the conquest and conversion happens.


Well, if Islam can turn lambs into jackals, Buddhism has a tendency to convert jackals into lambs. Ultimately, every religion is a thought system that shapes your personality into a set mould. You cannot discount the heavy influence of religion in deciding what societies make of themselves down the line and whether they become agressive like newly Islamised Arabs or pacifists like newly Buddhist Tibetans.

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Postby bala » 19 Apr 2008 01:11

This is so f&^%%% myopic, when in India has protests been banned, i would like under 144 CrPC for the commie protests to be banned, Arun Dhoti Roy and Medha Patkar's candle kissing convention to be banned and others too.

Anti-China protests banned in Arunachal

[quote]The Government of Arunachal Pradesh has banned protests against China in Tawang – a small town near the McMahon Line and a bone of contention between India and China.

The authorities have promulgated prohibitory orders to pre-empt any protest by the local Monpas against Chinese Army’s allegedly brutal crackdown on the agitating Tibetans on the other side of the border.

The Monpas are ethnic cousins of the Tibetans. They practised Tibetan Buddhism and revered the Dalai Lama as their supreme spiritual leader.

“The State government does not want any sort of rally or demonstration in Tawang. That is why we have imposed prohibitory orders under section 144 CrPC in order to maintain law and order in the border town,â€

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Postby Rye » 19 Apr 2008 01:13

Maybe there are other reasons for not wanting attention on AP.

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Postby surinder » 19 Apr 2008 01:18

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Most of them did not understand the nature of the threat of the Islamic horde and how it converst lambs into jackals where ever the conquest and conversion happens.


Well, if Islam can turn lambs into jackals, Buddhism has a tendency to convert jackals into lambs. Ultimately, every religion is a thought system that shapes your personality into a set mould. You cannot discount the heavy influence of religion in deciding what societies make of themselves down the line and whether they become agressive like newly Islamised Arabs or pacifists like newly Buddhist Tibetans.


Sanjay:

I don't understand why this is even argued. Religion changes world view. It alters one's orientation towards everything, even war and violence.

The Tibetan situation shows (once again) what happens to nations and communities when they abjure force. What happened to India in recent history should have been enough. Dalai Lama is left begging to Chinis, but men of force need not stoop to begging. That is a lesson to be learnt by India, sooner the better.

I read someone argue that Ashoka's abjurance of violence lead to India's decline and eventual slavery. I am not sure how far it is true, but seems likely.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 19 Apr 2008 01:29

I am still stunned by the meek acquiescence of so many countries to these PLA goons accompanying the PLA Goon Torch, and using physical violence against free expression by the citizens of those countries. UK, France, INDIA, and so many others.

What's the deal here? The Torch is not a visiting Head of State, and even then, the security is really provided by the local police, right? Who gave authority to these goons to enter these nations and touch anyone?

Chinese "diplo" thugs carrying posters personally insulting the President of France in New Dhimkiang? What's going on?

The PLA Torch Relay has turned into a classic 21st century Aswamedha Yaga by the Communist goons.

I hope someone calls their bluff.

As for this utter cra* by Sanjay Choudhury and others about Buddhism and the notion of non-violence being responsible for the decline into slavery, isn't it time to stop that asinine line, guys?

Sure, barbarian cowards like Pakis, always attack those who don't kick their asses first. But to BLAME civilization for that, is total cra*.

Observe how civilized I am, but I am still going to kick a few musharrafs if posters don't stop this idiotic line of "argument" and try to derail the discussion here. The issue here is the monstrosity that is Communist China, and its bullying and enslavement of people all around it.

And what we are seeing is the rise of worldwide awareness of this. The beginning of the end of Chinese communism and the rule of the thugs and goons.

BTW, did Russia allow Chinese goons into the streets of Moscow?
Last edited by enqyoobOLD on 19 Apr 2008 01:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby satyarthi » 19 Apr 2008 01:32

sanjaychoudhry wrote:Well, if Islam can turn lambs into jackals, Buddhism has a tendency to convert jackals into lambs. Ultimately, every religion is a thought system that shapes your personality into a set mould. You cannot discount the heavy influence of religion in deciding what societies make of themselves down the line and whether they become agressive like newly Islamised Arabs or pacifists like newly Buddhist Tibetans.

Your earlier comment about bhakti and this one suggests that you consider religion primarily through sociological viewpoint.

A sort of necessary condition for any religion to flourish in a society is that it should not damage the society and still provide something of value. But that value is not alaways something which strengthens society, but could be something which is of individual value.

Indic religions (Daharma-s) give lot more importance to internal development. That internal development is not solely for societal benefit. Society benefits by individual development, but that benefit is peripheral to the main purpose of religion.

It all boils down to what is considered valuable. A jingo may consider it to be utmost importance to have a militarily strong society, wielding great power and enjoying its material fruits. But another person may hold a completely different value system.

A typical hindu/budhist/jain/sikh view is to consider this world as a school and every one needs to graduate by developing oneself over several lifetimes. Society is like the infrastructure of the school. School is important, but if the school fails to support its goal then there is no point to the school or its great architecture. Someone may believe in the value system that says that maintaining the school infra and running its affairs is the ONLY important thing. But others may believe that school is relevant only as long as it fulfills its goal of letting its students learn and eventually graduate.

Buddhist societies have generated a large number of good people according to their value system. And if their metaphysical views are based on any truth, they have managed to "graduate" a large number of souls to higher levels.

Muslims can similarly claim that by converting a large number of people, even if by sword, they have saved their souls, and set them on a path to jannat.

Now it boils down to who you believe. I would say Islam has been more succesful against Budhists militarily, but does it really mean it is superior to buddhism? A buddhist can as well argue that just as children can be lured into false and damaging but easy things and may be deviated from their goal of development, but when the reality hits, those souls will have to come back again and go through the grind. So, a buddhist value sytem may as well consider it of great value to convert a jackal into a lamb. since in their system, jackals can't graduate.

Hindus have many texts including Gita which allows violence as a tool to protect dharma, and doesn't prohibit violence as a principle as Buddhism and Jainism tend to do. A similar approach by taken by Guru Gobind Singh when he talked of "sant sipahis". So, it is 50-50, two of dharmic faiths admit violence as a tool, two don't. Given that hindus numerically dominate, given time it should be possible in India to remove any timidity , military or otherwise.

Tibet may find it necessary that to get its independence it also would have to accept violence as a tool. Or it may think that Mahatma Gandhi model could work in Tibet just as it "worked" in India. Although given the temperamental difference between British and current uling dispensation in China, Gandhi model has high likelihood of failure.

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Postby ramana » 19 Apr 2008 01:51

Tibet should not use violence for that will give the PRC supporters whoever and wherever they maybe == itis. Tibet is the key and PRC knows it will unravel if they let go of Tibet. And Tawang is the key to Tibet as it is linked to the Dalai Lama. So relax and know the strengths that are there in Indian hands. That is why PRC moved heaven and earth to ensure a peaceful though deserted torch rally in India. After the Olympic they will do some bad stuff and karma will catch up them in catcalysmic form.One will have to be aware to understand it when it happens. Many Chinese are wondering at the force being used against gentle Buddhists.

To anyone noticing the West and their intellectual maggots were conspicous by their silence. Some thing to for later use.

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Postby Venkarl » 19 Apr 2008 02:06

ramana wrote:Tibet should not use violence for that will give the PRC supporters whoever and wherever they maybe == itis. Tibet is the key and PRC knows it will unravel if they let go of Tibet. And Tawang is the key to Tibet as it is linked to the Dalai Lama. So relax and know the strengths that are there in Indian hands. That is why PRC moved heaven and earth to ensure a peaceful though deserted torch rally in India. After the Olympic they will do some bad stuff and karma will catch up them in catcalysmic form.One will have to be aware to understand it when it happens. Many Chinese are wondering at the force being used against gentle Buddhists.

To anyone noticing the West and their intellectual maggots were conspicous by their silence. Some thing to for later use.


Exactly, without any regulating foreign hand(s), Tibetans cannot do it all alone. Someone is orchestrating all this, all top intelligence agencies are aware of this orchestrating hand(s) behind Tibet protests. CIA, MI6, Mossad, RuI or even RAW...who knows?? analyze it buddies, this could provide crucial inputs for this discussion.

My 2 cents..na jyaada..na kum..bubble gum...leejiyena..aadha to leejiyena

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Postby surinder » 19 Apr 2008 02:14

enqyoob wrote:As for this utter cra* by Sanjay Choudhury and others about Buddhism and the notion of non-violence being responsible for the decline into slavery, isn't it time to stop that asinine line, guys?

Sure, barbarian cowards like Pakis, always attack those who don't kick their asses first. But to BLAME civilization for that, is total cra*.

Observe how civilized I am, but I am still going to kick a few musharrafs if posters don't stop this idiotic line of "argument" and try to derail the discussion here. The issue here is the monstrosity that is Communist China, and its bullying and enslavement of people all around it.


The issue is not merely what the reality of CPC or Chinis is. The Issue is what can we do about thier reality? How does one stop them from committing atrocities?

Civilazations that cannot protect themselves, will ultimately be destroyed. Without the ability to protect itself, talk of superiority or inferiority of Civilization is meaningless.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 19 Apr 2008 02:33

As for this utter cra* by Sanjay Choudhury and others about Buddhism and the notion of non-violence being responsible for the decline into slavery, isn't it time to stop that asinine line, guys?


This thing is going OT, but why is the argument "religion heavily influences the shape societies take down the line" considered "utter crap"? Swear words shouted emphatically won't gain you anything.

How do you explain pagan Arabs being content within their own borders for 2,000 years, suddenly burst forth after their conversion to Islam and within 40 years of Mohammad's death, defeat and capture the entire middle east from Egypt to Persia, and the screwballs even had the guts to launch their first-ever expedition on Thane in India within the same time period. Religon has nothing to do with how races behave collectively, eh?

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Postby Rye » 19 Apr 2008 03:04

Can people who are keen on religious frothing at the mouth take it elsewhere? Dumping on every thread with the same religious frothing is starting to lower the quality of discussion all over. Please stick to one thread with your frothing if you are so inclined to go in that direction.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 19 Apr 2008 03:19

Rye wrote:Can people who are keen on religious frothing at the mouth take it elsewhere? Dumping on every thread with the same religious frothing is starting to lower the quality of discussion all over. Please stick to one thread with your frothing if you are so inclined to go in that direction.


You need some lessons in manners. Who in the hell do you think you are, the kotwal of BRF?

One intellectually sophisticated gent calls the posts "utter crap" while another big cigar here calls the poster "frothing at the mouth" and "dumping on the forum." Is this your definition of "heightening the quality of discussions."
Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 19 Apr 2008 03:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby hnair » 19 Apr 2008 03:20

ramana wrote:Tibet should not use violence for that will give the PRC supporters whoever and wherever they maybe == itis. Tibet is the key and PRC knows it will unravel if they let go of Tibet. And Tawang is the key to Tibet as it is linked to the Dalai Lama. So relax and know the strengths that are there in Indian hands. That is why PRC moved heaven and earth to ensure a peaceful though deserted torch rally in India. After the Olympic they will do some bad stuff and karma will catch up them in catcalysmic form.One will have to be aware to understand it when it happens. Many Chinese are wondering at the force being used against gentle Buddhists.

To anyone noticing the West and their intellectual maggots were conspicous by their silence. Some thing to for later use.


Thanks Ramana, for that sobering and to the point post.

To use CPC language: "Imperialistic forces (the west) and their running dogs (PLA) should never be challenged by violence." For that is like going to Mike Tyson with a chessboard and banging him in the head. If you have a board, persuade him to play chess. It is a fact that at this point in history, the world never sympathizes with an underpowered and violent provocateur that has meager western govt support. Pak Army of the 90s is a good example of that one. Tibetans are right now considered non-violent by the public and that is a weapon that the democratic govts of the west can't handle easily.

And yes, Govt of India proved a point: there are multiple ways to snuff out the warmth of a PLA torch. One is the French way and the other is the Govt of India way: prevent the innocent Indian public from being cynically used by the PLA to show that we support their barbarity. The best part was the cynical spoofing of the PLA-goons by the bored looking security folks. Ironically, it was PLA's help to Pak Army that made the Indian Govt extremely good at cordons and stuff :)

Meanwhile people of China, please note: When your govt was sweating out the torch relays in our country, you must have noticed (if you were allowed to) that we did not participate a lot. We were busy celebrating the liberation of cricket from the West in our own way: by laughing at the futility of sports pride. And the West, acknowledging that at this point, the Indians are the most influential in cricket administration, came with respect and enjoyed whatever opportunity we gave them. And even the most arrogant amongst the west readily acknowledge the arrival of India. Yeah, that elusive "equal-equal" status that PLA could not manage to get your country.

And no, neither our Govt nor our military play a huge role in reaching there. Rather the people did it.

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Postby Rye » 19 Apr 2008 03:24

deleted. pointless.
Last edited by Rye on 19 Apr 2008 03:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby surinder » 19 Apr 2008 03:30

Rye wrote:sanjaychoudhary drools:
You need some lessons in manners. Who in the hell do you think you are, the kotwal of BRF?


Which part of "don't discuss religion in unrelated threads " can't you understand? :evil:

Can you quit your cretinous moronic religious drool on every freaking thread? :evil:

No, I don't feel the need to be polite to people who destroy thread after thread.

You want a goddamn flame war, you got it.
:evil: :evil:


The thread is about Tibet. The idea of Tibet cannot be discussed without discussing Budhism. It is a very relevant point.

It is not Sanjay's fault that religion is a reason for many contentious issues of the world. While you may be tired of it, it cannot simply wished away.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 19 Apr 2008 03:31

Rye wrote:sanjaychoudhary drools:
You need some lessons in manners. Who in the hell do you think you are, the kotwal of BRF?


Which part of "don't discuss religion in unrelated threads " can't you understand? :evil:

Can you quit your cretinous moronic religious drool on every freaking thread? :evil:

No, I don't feel the need to be polite to people who destroy thread after thread.

You want a goddamn flame war, you got it.
:evil: :evil:


Cut your crap, you pompous idiot. I have been observing your posts and you have a habit of dumping on other posters. And shove your post count up your backside, if you think it gives you a priveleged status here.

This is a request to moderators to unsubscribe me from this forum, pls. I am not here to listen to this kind of nonsense.

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Postby Rye » 19 Apr 2008 03:32

The problem with Tibet is related to China, not buddhism.

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Postby hnair » 19 Apr 2008 03:32

sanjaychoudhry wrote:This thing is going OT, but why is the argument "religion heavily influences the shape societies take down the line" considered "utter crap"? Swear words shouted emphatically won't gain you anything.


Because this thread has nothing to do with that argument and it is not in any body's interest to discuss those in this particular thread. It is for the Tibetans to choose their way of freedom struggle and they already picked one (as Bala's post shows, they choose India's path and it is a proven path). And whatever be their choice, we will support them in their hour of need.

So it is not up to any of us to comment/judge their decision on this particular line.

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Postby GuruPrabhu » 19 Apr 2008 03:32

Guys !! Please , We are all on the same side

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Postby Venkarl » 19 Apr 2008 03:34

^^^^

with due respects..why bring IPL in Tibet thread? :roll:
already this thread has become fightclub between 3 gentlemen.

People here have enormous knowledge but we end up either diverting the topic or fight with each other. All that knowledge goes to waste dump resulting nothing.

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Postby Surya » 19 Apr 2008 03:37

Hey sanjay

you are free to walk away -

Admins

Please clean up this psychoanalysis of Buddhism

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Postby hnair » 19 Apr 2008 03:45

Venkarl wrote:^^^^

with due respects..why bring IPL in Tibet thread? :roll:
already this thread has become fightclub between 3 gentlemen.


Before your eyes roll off the sockets....

1) PLA uses olympics to try and attain parity with the west
2) India never bothered, but believed in its people. The west respects that and gave us this elusive parity in a platter.

IPL references are purely incidental and illustrative. I am not going to get into any argument over Shah Rukh's goras played better or Mallya's goras played better. But I am happy that the above said goras keep a lot of us entertained and earn their keep :)

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Postby nayar » 19 Apr 2008 03:58

guys what the hell is going on with our country...China is humiliating us at every step and our SHAMELESS POLITICIANS are just kissing more of their asses.AAAAAAAAAAagh.

Thats it, I am giving the Civil Services Examination exam next year nd kicking the hell out of these Chinese.

take a look at these links nd u will knw what I mean
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=1340050
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... t%e2%80%99
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... n+blunders
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Postby GuruPrabhu » 19 Apr 2008 04:03

:eek:

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Postby Rye » 19 Apr 2008 04:14

sanjaychoudhary, surinder, apologies for the rant against the discussion on religion. hnair has already said the needful (thanks, hnair).

Please have mercy...many people here may not particularly care about the religious angle to geo-political problem unless it is warranted. The Chinese are not occupying Tibet to crush buddhism...the chinese are just being the imperialist wannabe-capitalist pigs that they apparently despise.

Nayak,

This is not a one-on-one... did you think about why the USA protected the torch? India is doing the same thing...so why would you want the Chinese to think that the americans hate them less than the Indians? Right now, the GoI has fulfilled its international obligations in word and spirit, while at the same time showing the Chinese that for all the chaos, India can be orderly when required....and we do not need Tanks running over young men or shoot young women in the head to convince them to do the needful.

If you followed the NE threads, you would know that AP is currently undergoing upgrades, which is what the Chinese are not pleased about. This is not related to Tibet directly -- the jokers in the CCP think that they can intimidate India and the rest of the world on their way to the top of the heap. They just tried that tactic with the olympic torch and they still don't get it. Nice to have such idiots for enemies. :lol:

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Postby SwamyG » 19 Apr 2008 05:39

I think India's handling of the Olympic torch relay was almost military like. It can now tom tom about the Olympic spirit and Chinese people's H&D; and continue to strengthen its arms forces and provide support to the Tibetan cause at the same time.

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Postby SwamyG » 19 Apr 2008 06:02

And the history behind Bodhi Dharma guy is not that straight forward. There have been lots of theories and speculations. No point in taking a theory that suits us, especially in this thread.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 19 Apr 2008 08:03

Long live the Revolution! Inquilab Zindabad!

[quote]Chinese want India to host Olympics 2020! Yippeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ashok Kumar (Expressindia.com)

Posted online: Friday, April 18, 2008 at 1716 hrs IST

New Delhi, April 18:
Chinese people turned out in substantial numbers at the India Gate to cheer and support the Beijing Olympic torchbearers. Ashok Kumar of Expressindia.com talks to some of them to gauge the mood, hopes and aspirations of the hosts of Olympics 2008.

Gong who is associated with the Chinese Embassy was ecstatic about the Olympic torch relay in Delhi, “Dhimkiang peopre have offeled rots of herp. We hope good luck for the games,â€

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Postby Karan Dixit » 19 Apr 2008 10:09


"Tibet is virtually sealed," prime minister-in-exile Samdhong Rinpoche said in the Tibetan enclave of Dharamshala in India, adding "in a short period the Chinese authorities will destroy all evidence by executing the innocent Tibetans."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080418/wl ... 0418113819

Karan Dixit
BRFite
Posts: 1102
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 02:43
Location: Calcutta

Postby Karan Dixit » 19 Apr 2008 10:20


A Buddhist temple in northern Japan refused to serve as the starting point for the relay on April 26, the Associated Press reported yesterday. Zenkoji Temple in Nagano Prefecture rejected hosting the event because of concerns over security and events in Tibet, AP cited unidentified temple officials as saying.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... Ok9ozmW3xk

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As a Buddhist country, Thailand should follow on the footsteps of Japan and display strong solidarity with fellow Buddhists in Tibet.


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