Tibet Watch- 2008-Part 6

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Postby surinder » 17 Apr 2008 21:38

indygill wrote:I guess this is a new begining of yet another meek Indian era towards China. Lets see what lies in future in terms of Land issues and future water issues. China has already tested Indian resort !!!!!!


Small issues sometimes herald the times to come. This Tibet/Olympic saga is a defining moment:

First, this is the beginning of Pax-Sinica. A world dominated and controlled unapologetically by China. Despite seeing an unvarnished brutality, the world baiscally stood mute. India included. China does not care for world opinion, and this will be the tone set for the next century or so.

Secondly, India, which was beginning to be talked about as a rising power, the next asian tiger, an asertive nation, and an economic powerhouse will come to an end. Post Independence, India was a rising and admired nation. 1962 defeat kicked India in the teeth and eclipsed us and shattered our image. Brahma Chellany has said that itself was the main aim of the 1962 war. The current Tibet/Olympic humiliation of India, and the ongoing border dispute with China will ultimately eclipse the new respect India had been gaining since the mid 90s.

So welcome to Pax-Sinica, and a dimmed Indica.

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Postby svinayak » 17 Apr 2008 22:40

surinder wrote:

First, this is the beginning of Pax-Sinica. A world dominated and controlled unapologetically by China. Despite seeing an unvarnished brutality, the world baiscally stood mute. India included. China does not care for world opinion, and this will be the tone set for the next century or so.


The major powers have built economic relationship with this China for the last 20 years. They are the ones who have built the foundation of a Pax-Sinica. Olympics is the recognition they have bestowed on China and it is not China which has earned it. They can bring this down whenever they want to.

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Postby SaiK » 17 Apr 2008 22:50

can't be another challenger to the a-khans.. they will see to this does not happen, but now needs friends to do this act. The Indo-US relationship is very much for that, from un.kill point of view.

the haegemony shall continue as long as business capitals feel the pinch either in quality or price, and once that is down, there would begin automatic meltdown, aided by unrest due to loss of economic status, and utlitmately breaking of the country.

the solo western power is brutual in its thought.. unless the opponent rises, he can't fall. hence, its all for that future fall, this rise is being made with a strategic purpose. shall we call it a western program under some profile.

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Postby svinayak » 17 Apr 2008 22:56

They are setting up Chinese behavior

China snubs CNN apology over Cafferty remarks

By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN, Associated Press Writer Thu Apr 17, 7:37 AM ET

BEIJING - China on Thursday snubbed an apology from CNN over remarks by one of its commentators as a wave of verbal assaults on foreign media raised concerns over coverage at this summer's Beijing Olympics.

Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu rejected CNN's explanation that commentator Jack Cafferty was referring to China's leaders — not the Chinese people — when he described them as "goons and thugs." CNN said it apologized to anyone who thought otherwise.

But Jiang said at a regularly scheduled news conference that the CNN statement lacked sincerity and instead "turned its attack on the Chinese government to try to sow division between the Chinese government and the people."

The head of the ministry's information department summoned CNN's bureau chief in Beijing on Wednesday night to deliver a near identical protest.

CNN has been singled out by the Chinese government and unknown activists who have phoned and e-mailed death threats to Western reporters. Most of the criticism of the Atlanta-based network concerns a photograph posted on its Web site weeks ago which cropped out Tibetans throwing stones at Chinese security forces.

Chinese at home and abroad have heatedly accused Western media of biased coverage of violent anti-government protests in Tibet and across western China last month.

Numerous Web postings, YouTube videos and Facebook groups have criticized the Tibet news coverage, including a Web site called anti-cnn.com, which was set up especially to point out alleged media bias.

Anger has been further stirred by high-profile protests among Tibetans, free-speech advocates and others dogging the Beijing Olympic Torch's passage through London and Paris.

CNN and other foreign satellite broadcasts can be seen only in hotels, offices and housing developments open to foreigners, meaning very few Chinese would have heard Cafferty's original comments.

Censors also block many foreign news sites on the Internet, pointing to an underlying irony of the ongoing protests — that they profess outrage over foreign media reports that their government does not permit them to view.

The entirely state-controlled media has joined in the vilification campaign, with the criticisms of CNN featuring prominently in Thursday's newspapers and TV shows.

A signed editorial in the Communist Party's flagship People's Daily attacked what it called Cafferty's "verbal violence."

"When people wake up and face the facts, there will be no more market for 'information terrorism,'" the editorial said.

The vilification of Western media has renewed concerns about media controls during the Olympics, when thousands of foreign reporters are expected to be in Beijing to cover the August Games. Beijing has pledged to meet past standards for coverage, but has repeatedly violated those promises by detaining journalists and banning them from parts of the country.


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Postby surinder » 17 Apr 2008 22:59

Acharya wrote:
surinder wrote:

First, this is the beginning of Pax-Sinica. A world dominated and controlled unapologetically by China. Despite seeing an unvarnished brutality, the world baiscally stood mute. India included. China does not care for world opinion, and this will be the tone set for the next century or so.


The major powers have built economic relationship with this China for the last 20 years. They are the ones who have built the foundation of a Pax-Sinica. Olympics is the recognition they have bestowed on China and it is not China which has earned it. They can bring this down whenever they want to.


Not when Pax-Sinica is the banker and creditor of them. Rules have changed, the underling is now poised to be the biggest ling in the world. We Indians will have to just watch power shift from the West to the East, bypassing us.

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Postby svinayak » 17 Apr 2008 23:01

surinder wrote:

Not when Pax-Sinica is the banker and creditor of them. Rules have changed, the underling is now poised to be the biggest ling in the world. We Indians will have to just watch power shift from the West to the East, bypassing us.

The foundation has to be built in the east for a long term dominance of the east. But todays kind of trading system cannot be that foundation. It is only short term thing.

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Postby bala » 17 Apr 2008 23:54

Jiang Xiaoyu, the vice president of the Beijing Olympic organising committee, thanked India for it organisational skills.

"We have been deeply impressed by the beauty of Delhi and the arrangements and the Indian people's passion for the Olympic flame," he said as the relay ended
.


What a bunch of hot soy sauce and hoysin slippery logic by Jiang. Indian people having passion for Olympic flame? Not by any stretch, uncle Jiang. Olympics is not India's strong suite and one hosted by Beijing ain't stirring the juices of athletes in India either. Uncle Jiang please wear the funeral dress at your Olympic bash, best way to celebrate.

Public sympathy in India lies with the Tibetans, who have sought refuge in the country since the Dalai Lama, their spiritual leader, fled Tibet after a failed uprising against Beijing in 1959, setting up his government-in-exile in the northern town of Dharmsala.

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Postby cbelwal » 18 Apr 2008 00:18

Exiled Tibetans are being arrested,their protests are being banned. We are only few steps behind how the Chinese treat the Tibetans. Combine this with the Tasleema Nasreen episode (on being forced to quit India), makes you wonder is India really a democratic and secular country anymore ?

Jiang Xiaoyu, the vice president of the Beijing Olympic organising committee, thanked India for it organisational skills.

"We have been deeply impressed by the beauty of Delhi and the arrangements and the Indian people's passion for the Olympic flame," he said as the relay ended
.

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Postby Suraj » 18 Apr 2008 00:21

I don't see the security measures for the torch as deference to China at all. Quite the opposite actually. What would have been embarassing is the relay getting significantly disrupted, or riots occuring a la Paris, or even a faked run as in San Francisco. That would indicate that we could not control things in our own capital.

Instead we simply took into account the massive potential for protests and enacted suitable security measures. The relay ran the planned route, without any interruptions and diversions. This, in the country, and that too in the primary city, that the majority of the exiled Tibetans are based in. Now the torch is the next country's problem.

Why is all this a problem ? Would you rather that we maintained an affected sense of "don't make a big deal of it" ? I find that a very poor idea from a practical perspective. The torch relay has been a lightning rod pretty much everywhere, and the stupidest thing we could have done is mess it up in our own capital. Despite all the talk before the event, we demonstrated competent, professional handling when it came to the actual occasion, allowing the Tibetans their right to protest peacefully, while allowing the torch run to progress uninterrupted.

I find all the allusions to defering to 'Pax Sinica' a load of hog manure. The scale of security exceeding R-day preparations is not a reflection on us, but on China. We just did what needed to be done to guarantee safety of the relay, which lay in our hands. Results alone matter, not the fact that some windows were shut.

As for heech's suggestion that the protests against China suggesting its arrival on the big stage, well that's rather laughable. Both the Tokyo 1964 and Seoul 1988 Olympics heralded the economic rise of those countries, yet faced no such issues. Tokyo 1964 remains *the* standard of a breakout Olympics, with Seoul being quite impressive as well. Beijing '08 on the other hand has already condemned itself to be remembered on par with the 1936 Berlin event instead of either Japan's or Korea's coming of age events.

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Postby heech » 18 Apr 2008 00:41

Suraj wrote:As for heech's suggestion that the protests against China suggesting its arrival on the big stage, well that's rather laughable. Both the Tokyo 1964 and Seoul 1988 Olympics heralded the economic rise of those countries, yet faced no such issues. Tokyo 1964 remains *the* standard of a breakout Olympics, with Seoul being quite impressive as well. Beijing '08 on the other hand has already condemned itself to be remembered on par with the 1936 Berlin event instead of either Japan's or Korea's coming of age events.

While I concur the Seoul 1988 Olympics in particular represented the coming of age for South Korea... I want to point out we're talking about the difference between internal and external opinion.

I'd claim that no one in the West is or was remotely threatened by South Korea's rise. With a population of 40 million, South Korea's rise does not drastically affect the calculus for Western nations. (Japan's rise did eventually raise a few butterflies in the West by the way, but not until the late '80s.)

China's population is twice that of Europe and North America's populations combined. China's continued rise will significantly and directly affect European/American interests. After all... far more people have died in Kenya than Tibet over the past month, but how many French or British are wrought with concern over that issue?

India will face the same international scrutiny when it rises. I wish it well. Despite whatever negative sentiments individuals may have, am glad to see the Indian nation was a gracious host to the torch.

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Postby Suraj » 18 Apr 2008 01:01

Sorry heech, I find it laughable that China's size is somehow the reason why anyone's protesting, and particularly the allussion to boycotts of US/USSR-hosted Olympics. There hasn't been a single Olympics in the past that's faced any kind of disruption on the basis that you alude to, prior to Beijing '08. The only comparable situation of a country of similar size and economic capability would be Los Angeles 1932, which didn't face any boycotts.

The 1980 Moscow and 1984 Los Angeles tit for tat boycotts by NATO/Warsaw Pact nations were little more than two guys standing in front of each other and slapping each other in the cheek in succession, in a show of Cold War grandstanding no different from Khrushchev taking off his shoe and thumping the table with it at the UN a couple of decades prior.

Both were beyond well-established powers by then, and in no way compare to China's situation today. Seoul '88 ought to have faced some degree of protests, considering they were a dictatorship under Roh then. Paradoxically the only protests that event saw was a domestic student led-one demanding democracy.

The only aspect of China's rise that affects these protests is the fact that it provides greater publicity for them. The *reason* for the protests themselves lie elsewhere, in China's sorry record in Tibet, and elsewhere. If China's present stature serves to amplify the scale of protests, that is China's problem. Had these Olympics been in, say 1996 or 2000, it would still have seen Tibet-related protests, on a lesser scale commensurate with China's lesser profile then. In other words, China's profile is merely the amplification factor, not the reason itself.

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Postby bala » 18 Apr 2008 01:11

It is good that Indian authorities had control over the capital area, what is not good is that they arrested peaceful protesters. The protesters have an equal right (if not more) to demonstrate their point of view, just like IOC/Beijing Olympics Committee had the right to flagrantly display a polluting torch flame causing more CO2 emissions and running around in shorts.

There is no argument about China’s rise in the world. What is amazing is that the CCCP, PLA have transformed themselves via Psych Ops that they are the victims, when in fact they are the aggressors and bad dudes. Now, they have abrogated themselves as champions of China’s rise/nationality, whilst they kill their own citizens in Tibet. The Chinese people need to see the dichotomy. Not too long ago, some brave Han protesters were staring at artillery guns in Tiananman square. Anybody voicing a concern for the Tibet cause in China is branded as traitor and hounded out. The Dalai Lama is demonized, when he wants to have a civilized discussion and is not opposed to Chinese lordship over Tibet, albeit he wants autonomy in the conduct of Tibetians in religious and civic matters. What is wrong with such a reasonable request. Instead, Hu the Emperor dismisses this as a vile plan for the breakup of China. No, continued occupation could cause the break up, Hu.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 18 Apr 2008 01:53

Received phrom Capital of New Dhimkiang, People's Republic of China.

OLYMPIC POLITBURO PRAISES ARRANGEMENTS
Jiang Xiaoyu, the vice president of the Beijing Olympic organising committee, thanked Dhimkiang for it organisational skills.

"We have been deeply impressed by the beauty of Dhimkiang and the arrangements and the Dhimkiang Moths' passion for the Olympic flame," he said as the relay ended. Special thanks to Comrades Prakash and Brinda for training their Running Dogs and Camp Followers to keep road clear for the Torch of Red Triumph.

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Postby Paul » 18 Apr 2008 01:56

Acharya wrote:
surinder wrote:

Not when Pax-Sinica is the banker and creditor of them. Rules have changed, the underling is now poised to be the biggest ling in the world. We Indians will have to just watch power shift from the West to the East, bypassing us.

The foundation has to be built in the east for a long term dominance of the east. But todays kind of trading system cannot be that foundation. It is only short term thing.


Probably the same as Iraq or Germany...only on a more gigantic scale. Bring em' up...then bring 'em down.

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Postby putnanja » 18 Apr 2008 02:06

bala wrote:There is no argument about China’s rise in the world. What is amazing is that the CCCP, PLA have transformed themselves via Psych Ops that they are the victims, when in fact they are the aggressors and bad dudes. Now, they have abrogated themselves as champions of China’s rise/nationality, whilst they kill their own citizens in Tibet. The Chinese people need to see the dichotomy.


Well said, and this needs to be repeated over and over!! Even Heech ( PLA plant here) has the same victim complex, thinking people are protesting China's rise. Far from it, if they had behaved half way decently with Tibetians and Dalai lama, none of this would have happened. Every day they spew venom at Dalai Lama and tibetians, not understanding that it reinforces the ugly communist china image across the world.

Heech, take your butt off from front of your chinese propaganda TV. No one is protesting china's rise. Tell your government to honor the Tibetian autonomy agreed to first and stop killing innocent tibetians, and no one will protest against china. BTW, don't force people who don't want to integrate into China like taiwan.

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Postby heech » 18 Apr 2008 02:17

Suraj wrote:The only aspect of China's rise that affects these protests is the fact that it provides greater publicity for them. The *reason* for the protests themselves lie elsewhere, in China's sorry record in Tibet, and elsewhere. If China's present stature serves to amplify the scale of protests, that is China's problem. Had these Olympics been in, say 1996 or 2000, it would still have seen Tibet-related protests, on a lesser scale commensurate with China's lesser profile then. In other words, China's profile is merely the amplification factor, not the reason itself.

I fully agree with your comments. China's profile and size is the amplification factor, and not the reason itself. You've misinterpreted my earlier postings if you believed I would argue otherwise.

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Postby indygill » 18 Apr 2008 02:21

Public sympathy in India lies with the Tibetans, who have sought refuge in the country since the Dalai Lama, their spiritual leader, fled Tibet after a failed uprising against Beijing in 1959, setting up his government-in-exile in the northern town of Dharmsala.


Isn't thats the irony GOI who is suppose to represent "Public" but in reality it seems always goes against them!!!! It seems only "few" count. Why is that?

There seems to be a "fundamental" error......

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 02:25

indygill wrote:
Public sympathy in India lies with the Tibetans, who have sought refuge in the country since the Dalai Lama, their spiritual leader, fled Tibet after a failed uprising against Beijing in 1959, setting up his government-in-exile in the northern town of Dharmsala.


Isn't thats the irony GOI who is suppose to represent "Public" but in reality it seems always goes against them!!!! It seems only "few" count. Why is that?

There seems to be a "fundamental" error......


State to State relations and agreements are not connected with sentiments and feelings of the people which the govts represent.

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Postby indygill » 18 Apr 2008 02:25

>>>Even Heech ( PLA plant here) has the same victim complex, thinking people are protesting China's rise<<<<

Isn't thats the same logic used in India to propagate "anti-west" and "anti-US" sentiments..... by commies

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Postby Suraj » 18 Apr 2008 02:34

heech wrote:
Suraj wrote:The only aspect of China's rise that affects these protests is the fact that it provides greater publicity for them. The *reason* for the protests themselves lie elsewhere, in China's sorry record in Tibet, and elsewhere. If China's present stature serves to amplify the scale of protests, that is China's problem. Had these Olympics been in, say 1996 or 2000, it would still have seen Tibet-related protests, on a lesser scale commensurate with China's lesser profile then. In other words, China's profile is merely the amplification factor, not the reason itself.

I fully agree with your comments. China's profile and size is the amplification factor, and not the reason itself. You've misinterpreted my earlier postings if you believed I would argue otherwise.

Excellent. Thanks for the acknowledgement of China's atrocious record in Tibet. Now let's move on.

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Postby indygill » 18 Apr 2008 02:36

State to State relations and agreements are not connected with sentiments and feelings of the people which the govts represent

Ok than what is?

In china case what is there for India.

If you say trade than should we not be worried that cheap and sub standard goods from china are going to hurt our local industries and will cause massive "loss of manufacturing jobs"!!!

What goods are there that china needs from India? I can't think of anything that chinese cannot produce cheeper than India.

Secondly most important fact chinese claims of Indian lands. Secondly them holding indian territory and lastly and most important them supplying pakis especially missiles and nuclear bomb.

Where is the logic in GOI? It seems the motive was not "national interest" infact it was selfish "vested" interest to "stay in power" only. GOI has let itself to be "hijacked" by "commies".... which is a begining of a very "dangerous" trend.

In a free democratic nation any govt. is responsible towards its people. And Govt. is obliged to explain its policies and goals to its people but in Indian case it lacks that basics. It acts more like a commie nation.....

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 02:51

indygill wrote:
State to State relations and agreements are not connected with sentiments and feelings of the people which the govts represent

Ok than what is?

In china case what is there for India.

For China , India needs a strategy. It is one gigantic player on the global stage.

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Postby indygill » 18 Apr 2008 03:00

Acharya wrote:
indygill wrote:
State to State relations and agreements are not connected with sentiments and feelings of the people which the govts represent

Ok than what is?

In china case what is there for India.

For China , India needs a strategy. It is one gigantic player on the global stage.


Do you know what that is? GOI has not spelled anything? Only thing that has been evident (only few months back)

- Since Visiting Chinese officials in India claimed Auranchal Pardesh as integeral part of China and
- chinese refused to give AP officials in delegation visa on the grounds that they do not need visa because they are chinese since AP is part of china

is simply "meekness" and acting "against" national consesus.....

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 03:05

indygill wrote:
Do you know what that is? GOI has not spelled anything? Only thing that has been evident (only few months back)

- Since Visiting Chinese officials in India claimed Auranchal Pardesh as integeral part of China and
- chinese refused to give AP officials in delegation visa on the grounds that they do not need visa because they are chinese since AP is part of china

is simply "meekness" and acting "against" national consesus.....


India needs a big stick and has to show it. I have told many BR people unless India shows a 1 MT explosion China will not budge. This is minimum requirement.
But here in BR people are still arguing whether TN is required or not / whether TN worked on NOT/ whether India declared TN as a weapn or not.

This will not help at all.

What I am saying is that India does not have a stick. We have all other options including meekness and appeasement.
Last edited by svinayak on 18 Apr 2008 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rye » 18 Apr 2008 03:07

Russia exploded many such megaton devices, but that did not help save them from collapse in the end. Perhaps India should be learning some lessons from that experience....

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Postby surinder » 18 Apr 2008 03:16

Acharya wrote:India needs a big stick and has to show it. I have told many BR people unless India shows a 1 MT explosion China will not budge. This is minimum requirement.


Acharya:

Thuggery should be met with enormous force. Words and pleading will get us nowhere. In other words, I totally agree with you. 400000%. Plus, we need Agni-4, 5, 6 ,7 ... Chini problem in AP and Aksai Chin will resolve quite beautifully if all that is done. Anything short, we will be consigned to the dustbins by Pax-Sinica.



Rye wrote:Russia exploded many such megaton devices, but that did not help save them from collapse in the end. Perhaps India should be learning some lessons from that experience....


Rye,

Megaton is a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. Just because person X had healthy diet and excercised but still died of disease does not mean that I should not have a healthy diet/excercise.

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Postby bala » 18 Apr 2008 03:27

One another point about China-Tibet imbroglio and India’s handling of the issue. People around the world including Chinese in China and elsewhere are realizing, quite rightly so, that India is the most compassionate nation and diligent in honoring human rights and expressions of freedom. It hosts the Tibetians, allows them freedom of expression and at the same time sticks to international obligations including those commitments it pledged for the security of foreign missions. In some sense, it has gone out of its way to please the Chinese goons/thugs due to the current ruling faction and its CPI&M minions. Chinese in the West and Europe, having the unique privilege to see western media and TV, are in a quandary over the actions of the CCCP and PLA thugs. On the one hand they glibly fall for the propaganda of the CCCP/PLA thugs that the Tibet issue is about the glory of China and its rise but on the other hand they are pained to see killings of innocents, religions of Buddhism vilified/demonized, tanks on the street with gun toting goons. Clearly these images are disturbing and in their heart of hearts know full well that there is grave crime being committed in the name of progress and sovereign rule of China.

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Postby Rye » 18 Apr 2008 03:31

surinder wrote:
Just because person X had healthy diet and excercised but still died of disease does not mean that I should not have a healthy diet/excercise.


Bad analogy -- Russia did not have "a healthy diet and exercise" because it was spending immense amount of money just to maintain its deterrence posture, which killed them in the end (IMO etc.). The more strident the posture, the more money it will take to keep the posture in the long run -- a harmless posture causes underestimation of capabilities and thus lowers the cost of maintaining the posture without any real decrease in the capability itself.

The worry most people have is that a harmless posture will cause a breakdown of deterrence for India, as its adversaries will test India and try to call its bluff, and India better be prepared....countries are not going to risk their existence by trying to see if India will lob a bum at them and get their citizens killed, unless they have REALLY good reason to believe they do not have to care about a retaliation...can anyone list any country that wants to test India's will to use its deterrent?

Everyone talks as if India has a trillion dollar economy to absorb any and all costs arising from actions taken by the GoI that might be bad for business.

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Postby indygill » 18 Apr 2008 04:04

The worry most people have is that a harmless posture will cause a breakdown of deterrence for India, as its adversaries will test India and try to call its bluff, and India better be prepared.


Nice statement!!!

Answer does not lie in Making a bigger bomb.

India simply lacks any "policy"!!! India is not "pro-active" and has paid a heavy "price" since 1947. It seems Indian institutions refuse to learn from past mistakes. In their policies they emphasize more "ideological loyalties and beliefs" than "reality".

This trend of policy making has made nation "suffer" greatly. This dangerous and self-destructive "trend" needs to be stopped.

Has anyone paid any attention to the fact that after 1947 India is one of the few nations that has lost largest portion of their terrotories to its enemies. And they have all been the result of Indian "Policies"........

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Postby ramana » 18 Apr 2008 04:13

The torch relay arrangements gave teh DDM a taste of what life is in PRC!
Here is a pictorial of the torch relay from Telegraph, 18 April 2008

Image


The scary thing is given the political inclination there is very ample resources to impliment such a life style in India. The Indian laws are such that its very difficult for the official apparatus to disobey.

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 04:32

China seals international gateway into Tibet, stops refugee flow out
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 180322.htm

Friendship Bridge, Nepal-Tibet Border (AP): Three lithe Chinese security men shift silently into position so they are anchored abreast exactly midway across Friendship Bridge, high above a Himalayan river gorge.

It's the only international gateway into Tibet. As a small group of foreigners approaches, the guards' unspoken message is clear: The rebellious territory behind them is off-limits.

After anti-government riots erupted March 14, Beijing closed off Tibet to foreign and domestic tourists and cracked down on Tibetans trying to escape. And China's security apparatus doesn't stop at the border.

Chinese security police in athletic wear can be seen lounging in tea shops and strolling the sole street in the border town of Liping. They shadow three Associated Press journalists from the moment they arrive, ordering them not to take photographs -- on Nepalese territory.

And in the capital Katmandu, Tibetan exiles say China is pressuring the Nepalese government to crush anti-Chinese activities by the world's second-largest Tibetan exile community.

``The Chinese asked us unofficially to cooperate on securing the border. They are far stricter now,'' said one Nepali immigration official, requesting anonymity since he was not authorized to speak to the press. ``Even an Austrian lady who was studying Chinese in Lhasa (Tibet's capital) was not allowed to enter.''

Before the current unrest, some 1,500 foreigners a month would make the rough, four-hour car journey on a Chinese-built road from Katmandu to the border and then on to Lhasa.

Now, Chinese authorities have reversed an earlier decision to reopen Tibet to tourism on May 1, tour operators in Beijing said last week. There has been no official indication of when the border would reopen. The International Campaign for Tibet, a U.S.-based activist group, says it has information the region may remain sealed until after the Beijing Olympics in August.

``This is the high season, so we should be getting a full house, but we have very few guests,'' said Pabitra Mager, a manager at Liping's Lhasa Guest House. ``We can only hope that the border will reopen soon.''

Officials in Beijing also have declined to comment on troop deployments. But Nepalese frontier officials say there has been a significant increase in border patrols. A woman who answered the telephone at the Public Security Bureau in Zhang Mu, the Tibetan town opposite Liping, also said that more police and troops have been dispatched to the region. She declined to give her name.

The buildup also means no exit from Tibet. No refugees have registered at the U.N.-run Tibetan Reception Center in Katmandu since March 18. A spokesman of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, Nini Gurung, said normally 200-250 flee into Nepal each month, discounting winter snows still on the mountains as a major factor for the dramatic drop.

Refugees avoid the well guarded Friendship Bridge zone, braving instead some of the world's most treacherous terrain -- mountain passes as high as 5,000 meters (16,400 feet) often swept by sudden snow storms along the 1,414-kilometer (878-mile) border.

In the past, some have been gunned down by Chinese guards or sentenced to long jail terms after capture. A few have been abused and forcibly repatriated by the Nepalese, despite a 1989 ``gentlemen's agreement'' with the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.

The pact allows escapees to remain in Nepal while they are processed by the agency. Then they are sent to India, home of the world's largest Tibetan exile community and its spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

China has provided substantial development aid to Nepal over the past decade, increasing its leverage. Activists say China could pressure Nepal to crack down on some 6,000 among the 20,000 Tibetan exiles without legal status in Nepal and go after exile groups which stage almost daily anti-Chinese protests in Katmandu.

Under pressure from Beijing, Nepal closed the representative office of the Dalai Lama in 2005 and last year deregistered the Bhota Welfare Office, a local organization assisting Tibetans.

``China already had a very heavy footprint in Nepal and after the protests it will get even bigger, making the Tibetan refugees very vulnerable,'' says Kate Saunders of the International Campaign for Tibet.

Saunders said Chinese security officials have been right behind Nepali riot police and have directed suppression of protests. ``China has been given a free rein in Katmandu,'' she said.

Local journalists covering the demonstrations have also seen Chinese personnel, although no indication they were issuing instructions to police.

Home Ministry spokesman Modraj Dotel denied Chinese security gives the orders, saying the protests violate Nepal's rules. ``We have a one-China policy and won't allow any protests or activities against China in Nepal,'' he said.

Nepalis, meanwhile, have been partially exempt from the frontier clampdown. Visas for businessmen going to Lhasa are still granted and cross-border business continues. Traders cross the bridge on foot or in trucks, hauling in apples, Lhasa beer, perfumed laundry powder, wool blankets, rice cookers and mobile telephones. (``Very cheap, but they only last two months,'' jokes a Nepali woman in Liping).


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Postby anupmisra » 18 Apr 2008 06:22

Stratfor Article on Chinese Manipulations in San Francisco Torch Run:
(Sorry, the link does not work because of password, etc., hence posting in full)


Beijing’s Obvious Hand at the U.S. Olympic Torch Run

The Olympic Torch in San Francisco
By Rodger Baker

The April 9 Olympic torch relay in San Francisco opened a window into the organizational capabilities of the Chinese government and its intelligence collection apparatus inside the United States. From the coordinating efforts of the city’s Chinese Consulate, down through local Chinese business and social organizations, and on to the pro-China supporters who photographed the event, the operation showed an efficiency and organizational capability not seen among the anti-China demonstrators. The run also revealed a high level of sophistication, planning and control in the pro-China camp.

A Day of Confusion
The torch relay in San Francisco proved a mixed bag of anti-China and pro-China demonstrators, as well as spectators simply hoping for a glimpse of the symbol of the Olympic Games. Pro-Tibet and other demonstrators altered their tactics in San Francisco following clashes surrounding the torch run in London and Paris — where pictures of a protester with a Tibet flag trying to snatch the torch from a handicapped torchbearer left the protesters looking worse than China. As a result, the demonstrators in San Francisco planned to impede the progress of the relay rather than attempt to extinguish the torch or interfere with the actual torchbearers. The massive gathering at the beginning of the torch route, and the blocking of a bus carrying Chinese security officials and items related to the torch run, triggered the organizers of the relay to change the route completely. In part, then, the p rotesters interrupted the relay effectively, though not in the manner they had hoped.

The on-the-fly changes in the torch relay route, which left many spectators waiting down near the piers when the torch was running along the hills several blocks away, allowed the relay to progress relatively smoothly, interrupted only a few times by protesters attempting to block the route or by a few demonstrators bearing little sign of affiliation with the Tibetan or Darfur causes who threw water balloons at the torch. The heavy police and Diplomatic Security Service presence around the torch runners largely kept demonstrators on the sidewalks, while the moving roadblocks and the unclear torch route left demonstrators unsure of where they could amass to intercept it. The security organizers, then, were relatively successful in their efforts to allow all planned participants to carry the torch with minimal interference.

In the end, neither protesters nor security “wonâ€

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Postby Sanjay M » 18 Apr 2008 07:14

Chinese student in U.S. is caught in confrontation
By Shaila Dewan 8:40 PM
A Chinese student who acted as a referee during a pro-Tibet vigil and a pro-China counterdemonstration in San Francisco has been accused of being a traitor.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 18 Apr 2008 07:50

Sanjay: Interesting thing about that story is the reaction (or lack thereof). Long ago, when someone put up a Petition citing quotations from the book by the child-porn writer Paul "Limp Phallus" Courtright of Emory university, someone else (probably the Emory U. people) posted something like "He should be hanged" as a comment. The Emory Public Relations dept. immediately called the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, ATF, DEA, Mossad, MI6 etc. and they threatened the Petition originators with arrest on anti-terrorism charges.

Now this young woman has been blatantly threatened with being "chopped into 10,000 pieces) etc., but I wonder if there will be any FBI charges against those who posted her personal info on the web.

Time to start learning Mandarin, I guess, to understand the orders from our Future Masters.

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Postby Karan Dixit » 18 Apr 2008 08:36

Rye wrote:Russia exploded many such megaton devices, but that did not help save them from collapse in the end. Perhaps India should be learning some lessons from that experience....


Wrong conclusion. (IMHO)

------------------------------

Back to the topic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24185262/

(If Nepal needs military help, they should appeal to western countries, may be someone will help them.)

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Postby svinayak » 18 Apr 2008 08:41

Rye wrote:surinder wrote:
Just because person X had healthy diet and excercised but still died of disease does not mean that I should not have a healthy diet/excercise.


Bad analogy -- Russia did not have "a healthy diet and exercise" because it was spending immense amount of money just to maintain its deterrence posture, which killed them in the end (IMO etc.). The more strident the posture, the more money it will take to keep the posture in the long run -- a harmless posture causes underestimation of capabilities and thus lowers the cost of maintaining the posture without any real decrease in the capability itself.

The worry most people have is that a harmless posture will cause a breakdown of deterrence for India, as its adversaries will test India and try to call its bluff,
and India better be prepared....countries are not going to risk their existence by trying to see if India will lob a bum at them and get their citizens killed, unless they have REALLY good reason to believe they do not have to care about a retaliation...can anyone list any country that wants to test India's will to use its deterrent?

Everyone talks as if India has a trillion dollar economy to absorb any and all costs arising from actions taken by the GoI that might be bad for business.


I have to only quote this which I got in email

Bharat-Karnad's " Nuclear Weapons & Indian Security. The Realist Foundation of Security". ( I'st Edition)

Page 449 & 450: Quote:

"With New Delhi not really coming to grips with the latent power and the potential of the country, ...In the inter-war years in th elast century, Admiral Sir Reginald Custance of the Royal Navy articulated the, what he called the British doctrine of "the will to security' and comparing it with the German doctrine of 'will to power', found it wanting. The admiral felt that it always left the British unprepared for the next war - a fact bourn out some years later with the invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany in 1939 .... .. . .

. .. . . But to argue that the British are solely responsible for India's 'will to security' is to overlook the indigineous cultural roots of this phenomenon. The basic insularity and passivity , the languor and lassitude, and the unwillingness to perceive threats and proactively to shape a conducive international environment, have been the hallmarks of the thinking on defence and security of Indian kings from the time the vigour of the ancient Hindu civilization began to be sapped by the spread of self-abnegationist socio-religious influences 6 AD onwards. It coloured the vision and clogged the thinking of rulers. This led to strategic fatalism that facilitated Indian's becoming, in Stanislaw Andreski's telling phrase, the 'classic land of subjugation'.



That is the impact of Buddhism on Indian mental makeup.

I wonder why he specifically chose 6 AD ?



If we want to be always dhimmified then this is it.

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Postby Karan Dixit » 18 Apr 2008 08:42


Karan Dixit
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Postby Karan Dixit » 18 Apr 2008 09:02


WASHINGTON (AFP) - US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice Wednesday called her Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi to discuss the situation in Tibet and Iran's nuclear program, US officials said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080416/pl ... 0416190204

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Postby RayC » 18 Apr 2008 12:21

While the Tibetans were not allowed protests or near the Torch run, the Chinese official delegation were allowed to flaunt placards!!

[quote]As the Olympic torch trundled down Rajpath — hidden from ordinary Indian eyes by an iron curtain of security — official Chinese delegates were allowed to walk and bus with propaganda placards.

“Da Lie Lamaâ€

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 18 Apr 2008 12:22

That is the impact of Buddhism on Indian mental makeup.


Buddhism has screwed Tibetans too who till 800 AD used to be ferocious fighters. When the entire society turned toward Buddhism, it became incapable of defending itself. Buddhism is good if kept limited to the individual realm. When the power structure of a society is infected by its pacifism, the decline starts. Hinduism recognises this and that is why a large chunk of population -- Kshatriyas -- does nothing but specialises in war to defend the society.


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